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Why are you assuming that all women have the underlying motive of reproduction in mind when they play video games?
I do not, I'm saying women and men alike are partly determined by desires for reproduction and attention. Hitting on a girl, in video games or anywhere else, is just an expression of those desires : it is not a bad thing nor a bad behavior, it's completly normal.
Harassment and insults are entirely different, but are not specifically directed at women : as Incognito showed in previous posts, it is widely spread on the internet. In LOL some people used to ask "from ?" - each time I responded "france" I would get insulted (instantly or later during the game). There are tons of videos and comments on the internet implying french are cowards that "raise the white flag". Just to give an exemple, even Incontrol - who is a great guy - make bazillion of comments on french supposed cowardness in "Real Rollplay".
In european server, russian is actually an insult in itself (you're a russian, fuck those russians, etc.). Try saying you're from africa in a game just for fun. So it is not violence towards women in the "gaming culture" but the overall violence and frustration of the gaming culture that we should adress.
On March 10 2015 03:55 Incognoto wrote:To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people, especially on Team Liquid, are happy and pumped to see women invest themselves in starcraft. Look at how much respect the girls like Anna, Rachel, Smix, Sojung, etc and so on have gotten for their work? If you go into Livibee's chat or Aphrodite's chat, you'll see mostly positive content. I am very happy to have girls in esports. I'm pretty sure that most are like me. + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/VMinw7J.gif I think travis hit the nail on the head with his first post.
Travis post is indeed perfectly spot on.
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On March 10 2015 03:49 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:16 Zambrah wrote:But what do female gamers do about it now? Again, I'm not saying we just shouldn't have discussions about the way females are being treated in games, its pretty heinous, what I'm saying is that those discussions aren't changing things immediately and what other options do we have to make gaming more pleasant for female gamers in the present rather than the future, than for them to 1. adopt thicker skins, 2. stay out of vitriolic cesspools. It just seems to me that people refuse to accept that sometimes you have take some personal action, the world can't immediately change around you, sometimes you have to do this sort of thing. Which, again, sucks. But what are the real alternatives? <snip> it confuses me that people would refuse to take certain measures to have a more pleasant gaming experience out of some idealist principle. Ok, I'm going to give you the opportunity to think of a few historical parallels to this before I point them out to you. How the hell is trying to shine a spotlight on the shittiness of gaming culture, often at the cost of considerable personal anguish, not taking personal action? Should girls dress like men to reduce the chances of being raped? The way to fix this problem is to increase how visible it is, not hide it under the carpet. What we need is more people speaking out, of both genders. That's how girls start feeling welcome and valued. We don't need people telling girls to hide who they are to avoid incurring the wrath of the boys who were, after all, there first...
I have never said to sweep it under the rug. Not once.
And by personal I mean on a personal scale. ie on the individual level, to mute or ignore the fuckwits immediately around you, making a documentary is not solving your problems on the immediate, individual level.
You're completely misunderstanding my point. This is the attitude that I dont think makes any sense, rejecting intermediary solutions because they're not up to your idealistic standards.
Discussing this topic is positive, it brings out more people who hold these beliefs and makes them feel more welcome to express them in the gaming community.
That doesn't mean that the entire gaming community will turn to rainbows and sunshine over night, change is gradual.
In the mean time, there are measures that can be taken that can help make time playing games less shit, what I dont understand is this mentality,
+ Show Spoiler +We don't need people telling girls to hide who they are to avoid incurring the wrath of the boys who were, after all, there first...
Why shouldn't they mute dumbfucks and ignore dipshits? Yeah, I get it, in an ideal world its not necessary.
This is NOT that ideal world. These are some of the tools we have in the meantime while the discussions are still happening and people are still changing and (hopefully) improving. Ignoring them out of some weird idealistic principle is something I do not grasp, and I doubt I ever will.
Does this make my thoughts clearer?
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On March 10 2015 03:55 Incognoto wrote:To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people, especially on Team Liquid, are happy and pumped to see women invest themselves in starcraft. Look at how much respect the girls like Anna, Rachel, Smix, Sojung, etc and so on have gotten for their work? If you go into Livibee's chat or Aphrodite's chat, you'll see mostly positive content. I am very happy to have girls in esports. I'm pretty sure that most are like me. + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/VMinw7J.gif I think travis hit the nail on the head with his first post.
Most probably are, but the internet allows the vocal minority to be extremely loud, and unfortunately it's the first thing people will see. Team Liquid is heavily moderated, and has built up that reputation after years of slapping down people who post inappropriately. Unfortunately, due to the voice they possess, it's not good enough to just pretend sexist gamers don't exist because it is very clear they do, and it hurts the community as a whole.
This topic is really for another thread, but I do believe it is a parenting problem where the web is more of a parental influence than actual parents are. If we were doing a better job teaching kids that the internet is no different from any other public forum and the people you are degrading are, you know, real people, we would be in a different place.
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In order to address culture, you're going to have to get the major players to more thoroughly handle their communities, which means getting companies to ban/penalize people for problem behavior. Most games I've seen have systems for reporting problem people, but their efficacy tends to be a little low.
Moderation costs money, so where will the money for these moderation efforts to improve communities come from? Is there enough pressure for companies to do it out of their own economic self-interest? Should it be subsidized so that more of it gets done? Can volunteers cover it?
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On March 10 2015 04:07 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:55 Incognoto wrote:To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people, especially on Team Liquid, are happy and pumped to see women invest themselves in starcraft. Look at how much respect the girls like Anna, Rachel, Smix, Sojung, etc and so on have gotten for their work? If you go into Livibee's chat or Aphrodite's chat, you'll see mostly positive content. I am very happy to have girls in esports. I'm pretty sure that most are like me. + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/VMinw7J.gif I think travis hit the nail on the head with his first post. Most probably are, but the internet allows the vocal minority to be extremely loud, and unfortunately it's the first thing people will see. Team Liquid is heavily moderated, and has built up that reputation after years of slapping down people who post inappropriately. Unfortunately, due to the voice they possess, it's not good enough to just pretend sexist gamers don't exist because it is very clear they do, and it hurts the community as a whole. This topic is really for another thread, but I do believe it is a parenting problem where the web is more of a parental influence than actual parents are. If we were doing a better job teaching kids that the internet is no different from any other public forum and the people you are degrading are, you know, real people, we would be in a different place.
If the sexist trolls are indeed a minority, then you might agree that the issue is at least somewhat blown out of proportion? The way I see it, its the sites themselves (gamespot, console networks, etc) which should be required to police what the users are saying. If networks banned the trolls spouting hateful bullshit on their servers, then perhaps we would actually live in a "cleaner" internet.
I just don't think that writing articles and making documentaries about it helps. If anything, you make money off of the problem, but you aren't really fixing it. None of those articles are asking gamespot, PSN or whatever to moderate their users (which would actually help), they're just fueling the fire.
That doesn't mean the the likes of Riot didn't clean things up on their end, for example. Riot is a good example of how the problem should be tackled. The rest is clickbait
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On March 10 2015 04:16 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:07 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 03:55 Incognoto wrote:To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people, especially on Team Liquid, are happy and pumped to see women invest themselves in starcraft. Look at how much respect the girls like Anna, Rachel, Smix, Sojung, etc and so on have gotten for their work? If you go into Livibee's chat or Aphrodite's chat, you'll see mostly positive content. I am very happy to have girls in esports. I'm pretty sure that most are like me. + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/VMinw7J.gif I think travis hit the nail on the head with his first post. Most probably are, but the internet allows the vocal minority to be extremely loud, and unfortunately it's the first thing people will see. Team Liquid is heavily moderated, and has built up that reputation after years of slapping down people who post inappropriately. Unfortunately, due to the voice they possess, it's not good enough to just pretend sexist gamers don't exist because it is very clear they do, and it hurts the community as a whole. This topic is really for another thread, but I do believe it is a parenting problem where the web is more of a parental influence than actual parents are. If we were doing a better job teaching kids that the internet is no different from any other public forum and the people you are degrading are, you know, real people, we would be in a different place. If the sexist trolls are indeed a minority, then you might agree that the issue is at least somewhat blown out of proportion? The way I see it, its the sites themselves (gamespot, console networks, etc) which should be required to police what the users are saying. If networks banned the trolls spouting hateful bullshit on their servers, then perhaps we would actually live in a "cleaner" internet. I just don't think that writing articles and making documentaries about it helps. If anything, you make money off of the problem, but you aren't really fixing it. None of those articles are asking gamespot, PSN or whatever to moderate their users (which would actually help), they're just fueling the fire. That doesn't mean the the likes of Riot didn't clean things up on their end, for example. Riot is a good example of how the problem should be tackled. The rest is clickbait
If we are happy about bringing girls into the committee, shouldn't we just say to these documentaries and articles "yes I agree that harassment is bad, and that the loud minority should be dealt with"? Instead of going on the usual round about discussion about journalism ethics and what not. If gamers just said "yes trolls are horrible" there would be so much less to write about. Part of the drama that is going into these articles are the reactions of obstinate gamers who immediately leap into "not all gamers" mode.
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On March 10 2015 04:03 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +Why are you assuming that all women have the underlying motive of reproduction in mind when they play video games? I do not, I'm saying women and men alike are partly determined by desires for reproduction and attention. Hitting on a girl, in video games or anywhere else, is just an expression of those desires : it is not a bad thing nor a bad behavior, it's completly normal. Harassment and insults are entirely different, but are not specifically directed at women : as Incognito showed in previous posts, it is widely spread on the internet. In LOL some people used to ask "from ?" - each time I responded "france" I would get insulted (instantly or later during the game). There are tons of videos and comments on the internet implying french are cowards that "raise the white flag". Just to give an exemple, even Incontrol - who is a great guy - make bazillion of comments on french supposed cowardness in "Real Rollplay". In european server, russian is actually an insult in itself (you're a russian, fuck those russians, etc.). Try saying you're from africa in a game just for fun. So it is not violence towards women in the "gaming culture" but the overall violence and frustration of the gaming culture that we should adress.
But again, its context. There are places where can go if they want attention from men, and unfortunately video games is one of those places. And flirtation, in isolation, is not always a problem. But when the gaming community is predominantly male, the few females are subjected to a LOT of unwanted attention, and suddenly its a problem. To use a different analogy, it isn't uncommon for people to flirt at the gym. However, at least at the gyms I have been to recently, the male/female population is a lot closer to 50/50 than it is in gaming. This means there are less men wanting to flirt with more women, purely statistically. This makes it less likely that any individual woman will be bombarded with so much unwanted attention she's not able to exercise, that thing she is there for in the first place. And if, for example, she does receive more attention than she would like, she probably just stops going to that gym, making the problem worse for the remaining women.
It's a vicious cycle. It's hard to get women in gaming because men don't know how to behave around women in gaming, because there are very few women in games. I'm confident that if, overnight, the distribution became 50/50, awkward nerds would slowly learn how to not be awkward and we would have a more inclusive community. But that organic change in thought would only occur if more women existed in gaming, and we have to take first steps to get it there.
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On March 10 2015 04:16 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:07 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 03:55 Incognoto wrote:To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people, especially on Team Liquid, are happy and pumped to see women invest themselves in starcraft. Look at how much respect the girls like Anna, Rachel, Smix, Sojung, etc and so on have gotten for their work? If you go into Livibee's chat or Aphrodite's chat, you'll see mostly positive content. I am very happy to have girls in esports. I'm pretty sure that most are like me. + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/VMinw7J.gif I think travis hit the nail on the head with his first post. Most probably are, but the internet allows the vocal minority to be extremely loud, and unfortunately it's the first thing people will see. Team Liquid is heavily moderated, and has built up that reputation after years of slapping down people who post inappropriately. Unfortunately, due to the voice they possess, it's not good enough to just pretend sexist gamers don't exist because it is very clear they do, and it hurts the community as a whole. This topic is really for another thread, but I do believe it is a parenting problem where the web is more of a parental influence than actual parents are. If we were doing a better job teaching kids that the internet is no different from any other public forum and the people you are degrading are, you know, real people, we would be in a different place. If the sexist trolls are indeed a minority, then you might agree that the issue is at least somewhat blown out of proportion? The way I see it, its the sites themselves (gamespot, console networks, etc) which should be required to police what the users are saying. If networks banned the trolls spouting hateful bullshit on their servers, then perhaps we would actually live in a "cleaner" internet. I just don't think that writing articles and making documentaries about it helps. If anything, you make money off of the problem, but you aren't really fixing it. None of those articles are asking gamespot, PSN or whatever to moderate their users (which would actually help), they're just fueling the fire. That doesn't mean the the likes of Riot didn't clean things up on their end, for example. Riot is a good example of how the problem should be tackled. The rest is clickbait
It's blown out of proportion only when the headlines say that ALL gamers are sexist, misogynist, etc. and there have been a few of those. But I don't think the issue itself is blown out of proportion. If a small population has a powerful voice, they are a powerful population, that's been proven throughout history. And the trolls have shown they will do whatever it takes to make it seem like they are the majority. And people on the outside will believe them because they are the loudest.
Yes, a good step would be for companies to actually crack down on destructive behavior on their forums and client services. Many already do this, such as Riot and TeamLiquid. But it doesn't make it easy to do, and eliminating 100% of the toxicity from games like Dota and LoL is nigh on impossible, and banning someone for being a douche doesn't magically turn them into a good person, it makes them a douche who is temporarily without his voice.
And you forget that even if you ban all of the trolls from your website or your game, they can go create their own forum. I would say "great, live and let live," at that point except that they use it as a platform for committing criminal harassment and just making people's lives a living hell. Really the only thing we can do is try to teach our kids that the internet is just another public forum and it isn't appropriate to treat people that way. The internet would be a very different place if the only people who harassed online are the type of people who would harass offline. But anonymity is a powerful thing.
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On March 10 2015 04:23 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:03 WhiteDog wrote:Why are you assuming that all women have the underlying motive of reproduction in mind when they play video games? I do not, I'm saying women and men alike are partly determined by desires for reproduction and attention. Hitting on a girl, in video games or anywhere else, is just an expression of those desires : it is not a bad thing nor a bad behavior, it's completly normal. Harassment and insults are entirely different, but are not specifically directed at women : as Incognito showed in previous posts, it is widely spread on the internet. In LOL some people used to ask "from ?" - each time I responded "france" I would get insulted (instantly or later during the game). There are tons of videos and comments on the internet implying french are cowards that "raise the white flag". Just to give an exemple, even Incontrol - who is a great guy - make bazillion of comments on french supposed cowardness in "Real Rollplay". In european server, russian is actually an insult in itself (you're a russian, fuck those russians, etc.). Try saying you're from africa in a game just for fun. So it is not violence towards women in the "gaming culture" but the overall violence and frustration of the gaming culture that we should adress. But that organic change in thought would only occur if more women existed in gaming, and we have to take first steps to get it there.
Nope. We don't. Game developers will do that themselves if there is a real market there.
There will never be 50/50 in competitive gaming because men and women in general have different inclinations. It is not a shameful thing to have a majority male 'population'.
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On March 10 2015 04:21 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:16 Incognoto wrote:On March 10 2015 04:07 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 03:55 Incognoto wrote:To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people, especially on Team Liquid, are happy and pumped to see women invest themselves in starcraft. Look at how much respect the girls like Anna, Rachel, Smix, Sojung, etc and so on have gotten for their work? If you go into Livibee's chat or Aphrodite's chat, you'll see mostly positive content. I am very happy to have girls in esports. I'm pretty sure that most are like me. + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/VMinw7J.gif I think travis hit the nail on the head with his first post. Most probably are, but the internet allows the vocal minority to be extremely loud, and unfortunately it's the first thing people will see. Team Liquid is heavily moderated, and has built up that reputation after years of slapping down people who post inappropriately. Unfortunately, due to the voice they possess, it's not good enough to just pretend sexist gamers don't exist because it is very clear they do, and it hurts the community as a whole. This topic is really for another thread, but I do believe it is a parenting problem where the web is more of a parental influence than actual parents are. If we were doing a better job teaching kids that the internet is no different from any other public forum and the people you are degrading are, you know, real people, we would be in a different place. If the sexist trolls are indeed a minority, then you might agree that the issue is at least somewhat blown out of proportion? The way I see it, its the sites themselves (gamespot, console networks, etc) which should be required to police what the users are saying. If networks banned the trolls spouting hateful bullshit on their servers, then perhaps we would actually live in a "cleaner" internet. I just don't think that writing articles and making documentaries about it helps. If anything, you make money off of the problem, but you aren't really fixing it. None of those articles are asking gamespot, PSN or whatever to moderate their users (which would actually help), they're just fueling the fire. That doesn't mean the the likes of Riot didn't clean things up on their end, for example. Riot is a good example of how the problem should be tackled. The rest is clickbait If we are happy about bringing girls into the committee, shouldn't we just say to these documentaries and articles "yes I agree that harassment is bad, and that the loud minority should be dealt with"? Instead of going on the usual round about discussion about journalism ethics and what not. If gamers just said "yes trolls are horrible" there would be so much less to write about. Part of the drama that is going into these articles are the reactions of obstinate gamers who immediately leap into "not all gamers" mode.
The problem is that the gaming community has had very bad experience with attention from more mainstream sources of media, who like to point them in the worst possible way without even having the slightest clue what they are talking about.
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On March 10 2015 04:33 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:23 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 04:03 WhiteDog wrote:Why are you assuming that all women have the underlying motive of reproduction in mind when they play video games? I do not, I'm saying women and men alike are partly determined by desires for reproduction and attention. Hitting on a girl, in video games or anywhere else, is just an expression of those desires : it is not a bad thing nor a bad behavior, it's completly normal. Harassment and insults are entirely different, but are not specifically directed at women : as Incognito showed in previous posts, it is widely spread on the internet. In LOL some people used to ask "from ?" - each time I responded "france" I would get insulted (instantly or later during the game). There are tons of videos and comments on the internet implying french are cowards that "raise the white flag". Just to give an exemple, even Incontrol - who is a great guy - make bazillion of comments on french supposed cowardness in "Real Rollplay". In european server, russian is actually an insult in itself (you're a russian, fuck those russians, etc.). Try saying you're from africa in a game just for fun. So it is not violence towards women in the "gaming culture" but the overall violence and frustration of the gaming culture that we should adress. But that organic change in thought would only occur if more women existed in gaming, and we have to take first steps to get it there. Nope. We don't. Game developers will do that themselves if there is a real market there. There will never be 50/50 in competitive gaming because men and women in general have different inclinations. It is not a shameful thing to have a majority male 'population'.
Except when that a really shitty section population gets really grumpy and terrible when women become part of the community and start voicing their opinions about how games are made and designed. Which is exactly what is happening.
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On March 10 2015 04:33 ZasZ. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2015 04:16 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:07 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 03:55 Incognoto wrote:To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people, especially on Team Liquid, are happy and pumped to see women invest themselves in starcraft. Look at how much respect the girls like Anna, Rachel, Smix, Sojung, etc and so on have gotten for their work? If you go into Livibee's chat or Aphrodite's chat, you'll see mostly positive content. I am very happy to have girls in esports. I'm pretty sure that most are like me. + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/VMinw7J.gif I think travis hit the nail on the head with his first post. Most probably are, but the internet allows the vocal minority to be extremely loud, and unfortunately it's the first thing people will see. Team Liquid is heavily moderated, and has built up that reputation after years of slapping down people who post inappropriately. Unfortunately, due to the voice they possess, it's not good enough to just pretend sexist gamers don't exist because it is very clear they do, and it hurts the community as a whole. This topic is really for another thread, but I do believe it is a parenting problem where the web is more of a parental influence than actual parents are. If we were doing a better job teaching kids that the internet is no different from any other public forum and the people you are degrading are, you know, real people, we would be in a different place. If the sexist trolls are indeed a minority, then you might agree that the issue is at least somewhat blown out of proportion? The way I see it, its the sites themselves (gamespot, console networks, etc) which should be required to police what the users are saying. If networks banned the trolls spouting hateful bullshit on their servers, then perhaps we would actually live in a "cleaner" internet. I just don't think that writing articles and making documentaries about it helps. If anything, you make money off of the problem, but you aren't really fixing it. None of those articles are asking gamespot, PSN or whatever to moderate their users (which would actually help), they're just fueling the fire. That doesn't mean the the likes of Riot didn't clean things up on their end, for example. Riot is a good example of how the problem should be tackled. The rest is clickbait It's blown out of proportion only when the headlines say that ALL gamers are sexist, misogynist, etc. and there have been a few of those. But I don't think the issue itself is blown out of proportion. If a small population has a powerful voice, they are a powerful population, that's been proven throughout history. And the trolls have shown they will do whatever it takes to make it seem like they are the majority. And people on the outside will believe them because they are the loudest. Yes, a good step would be for companies to actually crack down on destructive behavior on their forums and client services. Many already do this, such as Riot and TeamLiquid. But it doesn't make it easy to do, and eliminating 100% of the toxicity from games like Dota and LoL is nigh on impossible, and banning someone for being a douche doesn't magically turn them into a good person, it makes them a douche who is temporarily without his voice. And you forget that even if you ban all of the trolls from your website or your game, they can go create their own forum. I would say "great, live and let live," at that point except that they use it as a platform for committing criminal harassment and just making people's lives a living hell. Really the only thing we can do is try to teach our kids that the internet is just another public forum and it isn't appropriate to treat people that way. The internet would be a very different place if the only people who harassed online are the type of people who would harass offline. But anonymity is a powerful thing.
You do realize that those who are giving the trolls their voice are the ones writing articles and making documentaries about the issue (while making money off of it)?
Part of the drama that is going into these articles are the reactions of obstinate gamers who immediately leap into "not all gamers" mode.
Haven't we already agreed that the trolls are a minority? Wouldn't that mean that "not all gamers" would be true?
It's a vicious cycle. It's hard to get women in gaming because men don't know how to behave around women in gaming, because there are very few women in games. I'm confident that if, overnight, the distribution became 50/50, awkward nerds would slowly learn how to not be awkward and we would have a more inclusive community. But that organic change in thought would only occur if more women existed in gaming, and we have to take first steps to get it there.
I don't understand this. Is the problem vicious harassment (e.g. pregnant with triplets) or awkward flirting? Vicious harassment is done by a minority, not a majority. most people with common sense do not condone trolling of girls, or anyone for that matter.
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So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite.
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On March 10 2015 04:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:33 bardtown wrote:On March 10 2015 04:23 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 04:03 WhiteDog wrote:Why are you assuming that all women have the underlying motive of reproduction in mind when they play video games? I do not, I'm saying women and men alike are partly determined by desires for reproduction and attention. Hitting on a girl, in video games or anywhere else, is just an expression of those desires : it is not a bad thing nor a bad behavior, it's completly normal. Harassment and insults are entirely different, but are not specifically directed at women : as Incognito showed in previous posts, it is widely spread on the internet. In LOL some people used to ask "from ?" - each time I responded "france" I would get insulted (instantly or later during the game). There are tons of videos and comments on the internet implying french are cowards that "raise the white flag". Just to give an exemple, even Incontrol - who is a great guy - make bazillion of comments on french supposed cowardness in "Real Rollplay". In european server, russian is actually an insult in itself (you're a russian, fuck those russians, etc.). Try saying you're from africa in a game just for fun. So it is not violence towards women in the "gaming culture" but the overall violence and frustration of the gaming culture that we should adress. But that organic change in thought would only occur if more women existed in gaming, and we have to take first steps to get it there. Nope. We don't. Game developers will do that themselves if there is a real market there. There will never be 50/50 in competitive gaming because men and women in general have different inclinations. It is not a shameful thing to have a majority male 'population'. Except when that a really shitty section population gets really grumpy and terrible when women become part of the community and start voicing their opinions about how games are made and designed. Which is exactly what is happening.
Are you talking about the women in the documentary?
If not, I don't really think anybody complains about women in the gaming community. What annoys people is when women play games that are blatantly targeted at male audiences (thinking of CoD here) and then complain when they are subject to abuse like every other player too stupid to use the mute function.
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On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite.
News companies are throwing fuel on the fire of feminism. They're the ones who are giving the trolls their voice. They're turning profit from "sexual harassment". Of course they're not going to help solve the problem, they're making money off of it. People who give attention to such news sites and documentaries thus fuel "sexual harassment". The real solution is doing what Riot and Team Liquid do: crack down on trolls at the source.
The "false" solution is making a big deal out of it for page-views and advertisement money. You can read all you want about it, you're just giving money to the news corps and encouraging them to make sure that sexual harassment online remains a profitable vein to exploit.
Obviously online sexual harassment is a problem. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that there are solutions to that problem and that this sort of media coverage is an anti-solution. Trolls will be trolls; this is quite literally feeding the trolls. It's not a hard concept to understand.
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I think too many people actually think the sexism and racism in online community are acts of sexism and racism, when in reality they're acts of douchebaggery, using sexism and racism to get a response.
You could be the whitest of white people, and any information given outside of being completely anonymous would be used against you. Oh you're American? better expect fat jokes, and 9/11 jokes. German? Nazi jokes. Jewish? Holocaust, shekels, rip-off jokes. Irish? Potato Famine jokes. British? lol british "food", USA #1, terrible accent impersonations. Christian? lol believe in sky fairy, what an idiot. Atheist? lol fedora tipping neckbeard. Muslim? muhammad jokes. Being female is also a category of which to be made fun of, to get a response...
I just find it funny, 20 years ago. "stick and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" was considered wise wisdom from adults, and generally a good rule of thumb. Now it's becoming demonized because the world should coddle you instead?
Guess which one is easier? a) trying to get a douchebag to be a non-douchebag, which in turn makes him more of a douchebag.
or b) self improvement of self-ego as such that it's not longer bruised by what a 12 year-old has to say about your genitals.
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On March 10 2015 04:56 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite. News companies are throwing fuel on the fire of feminism. They're the ones who are giving the trolls their voice. They're turning profit from "sexual harassment". Of course they're not going to help solve the problem, they're making money off of it. People who give attention to such news sites and documentaries thus fuel "sexual harassment". The real solution is doing what Riot and Team Liquid do: crack down on trolls at the source. The "false" solution is making a big deal out of it for page-views and advertisement money. You can read all you want about it, you're just giving money to the news corps and encouraging them to make sure that sexual harassment online remains a profitable vein to exploit. Obviously online sexual harassment is a problem. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that there are solutions to that problem and that this sort of media coverage is an anti-solution. Trolls will be trolls; this is quite literally feeding the trolls. It's not a hard concept to understand.
I see no reason not to report on sexual harassment. Reporting on racism does not increase racist behavior and there is no proof that reporting on sexist trolls does that either. Reporting on violence does not increase violence and reporting on trolling does not increase trolling. This just one of those intellectually dishonest arguments "I am totally in support of dealing with harassment and sexism, but people shouldn't report on it because it will increase harassment and sexism."
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On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite.
You have recognized that their goal is to make money, so let me ask, do you think that tabloid news should be taken at face value as 100% true?
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On March 10 2015 05:04 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite. You have recognized that their goal is to make money, so let me ask, do you think that tabloid news should be taken at face value as 100% true?
Is the NYT a tabloid news paper? How about NPR, the BBC, ABC, CBS and almost every tech site that matters? None of these are tabloid news and they are all reporting the same thing, that sexism in games(and tech as a whole) is an issue due to it being a male dominated field/hobby.
So what was your argument again?
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On March 10 2015 05:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 05:04 oBlade wrote:On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite. You have recognized that their goal is to make money, so let me ask, do you think that tabloid news should be taken at face value as 100% true? Is the NYT a tabloid news paper? How about NPR, the BBC, ABC, CBS and almost every tech site that matters? None of these are tabloid news and they are all reporting the same thing, that sexism in games(and tech as a whole) is an issue due to it being a male dominated field/hobby. So what was your argument again?
Actually the fact that these are reputable news agencies who want to make money means that they are much less likely to spin up bullshit that could destroy their credibility. They're definitely not going to post something just because an evil feminist told them so.
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EPT
