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Trolls are always going to have a voice regardless of the media. Now that there are so many outlets it's going to happen. In either case it doesn't matter what sex you are. People are going to post idiotic/flame/other dumb shit all the time. I love how everyone is trying to police the internet and other shit nowadays.
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On March 10 2015 06:00 StarStruck wrote:
Trolls are always going to have a voice regardless of the media. Now that there are so many outlets it's going to happen. In either case it doesn't matter what sex you are. People are going to post idiotic/flame/other dumb shit all the time. I love how everyone is trying to police the internet and other shit nowadays.
Calling people out on their shit =/= "policing" anything. Nobody is suggesting sending people to jail for this shit, they're just saying its really shitty and deserves to be called out as such. But its amazing how many people interpret being called an asshole (for acting like an asshole) as an attack on their freedom of speech
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On March 10 2015 06:02 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:00 StarStruck wrote:
Trolls are always going to have a voice regardless of the media. Now that there are so many outlets it's going to happen. In either case it doesn't matter what sex you are. People are going to post idiotic/flame/other dumb shit all the time. I love how everyone is trying to police the internet and other shit nowadays. Calling people out on their shit =/= "policing" anything. Nobody is suggesting sending people to jail for this shit, they're just saying its really shitty and deserves to be called out as such. But its amazing how many people interpret being called an asshole (for acting like an asshole) as an attack on their freedom of speech
Its sort of amazes me that people assume that the harassment ends at being called a bad name in a game, when all the reports say otherwise.
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On March 10 2015 05:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 05:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 10 2015 05:43 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 05:36 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 10 2015 05:20 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 05:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 10 2015 05:08 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 05:04 oBlade wrote:On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite. You have recognized that their goal is to make money, so let me ask, do you think that tabloid news should be taken at face value as 100% true? Is the NYT a tabloid news paper? How about NPR, the BBC, ABC, CBS and almost every tech site that matters? None of these are tabloid news and they are all reporting the same thing, that sexism in games(and tech as a whole) is an issue due to it being a male dominated field/hobby. So what was your argument again? Mainstream news and media and their utter lack of research on video games, people playing them, or any general topic of "young person trends" is a whole discussion topic on its own. Well gaming media is also reporting the exact same thing. And the article in the NYT is very well written and researched. If everyone is reporting the exact same thing, both main stream and gaming media, there is a pretty reasonable chance it might just be true. Or its all some grand SJW Illuminati plot to get girls/minorities into games. It's also the same kind of general article you saw when people like Jack Thompson were talking up video games as a hub of youth violence or...Dungeons and Dragons or MTG creating satanic cults. Or Rock & Roll corrupting the youth. It's very easy to have articles that sound reasonably true, especially if it just involves interviewing people, and it's the kind of flavour of article and reporting that organizations like NYT, BBC, CBS, etc. have pumped out for decades. I am just going to disagree and i think the reporting is totally valid in most cases. I don't buy into the whole argument that is all click base and they are misrepresenting the issue. My main reasoning behind that is that I only hear that argument coming from men on the internet, who I feel have a pretty poor perspective on how bad the harassment can be or the extent. Point was more that you shouldn't assume that it's factual reporting just because it's major news outlets doing it (appeal to authority, if you'd prefer). And you should assume they are false without evidence they are. The idea that every single news outlet is misrepresenting the facts all at the same time, over and over, needs some sort of evidence to back it up.
Well, again, news reporting on these things are extremely cyclical because it's not a topic people are actually looking in-depth at. I mean, school shootings caused by GTA/CoD/Halo or whatever is still a reported thing in the present day.
And I don't think the general argument is ever that sexist insults don't exist in gaming. It's that online gaming communities, in general, are like a mass of negativity that drive everyone out, until the people that are left are the ones being mean, or the ones that can deal with the occasional mean things being directed at them (which basically sums up why I don't post about SC2 anymore on TL.net).
You can certainly say that mean things are said to females online, and in video games, and you can certainly say that women get driven out of online game communities, and both would be true. The stretch is when you take that to mean there's a concerted effort from some people to drive women in general out, or that gaming is some supposed boys club (or even "white boys club").
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On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact.
Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually.
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On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually.
Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing.
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On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing.
Clearly listening to the people who are being harassed is the worst way to get information. The best way is to collect empirical data from afar and make a rational, not emotionally driven decision. because social interactions are a science experiment....
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On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing.
The path to unbiased perspective is statistical analysis, and not hitting on gamer women and acknowledging everything they say just to get in their pants.
Little devil 
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On March 10 2015 06:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing. Clearly listening to the people who are being harassed is the worst way to get information. The best way is to collect empirical data from afar and make a rational, not emotionally driven decision. because social interactions are a science experiment....
Yes, especially if by "collect empirical data" you mean "participate on on-line circle jerks with a bunch of similarly minded guys". Thats how real scientists do it, after all
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On March 10 2015 06:10 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing. The path to unbiased perspective is statistical analysis, and not hitting on gamer women and acknowledging everything they say just to get in their pants.
Except every piece of statistical analysis that has ever been done on the topic suggests overwhelmingly that women are severely underrepresented in gaming, more likely to hide their gender while playing, more likely to face harassment, and more likely to quit gaming alltogether...whereupon guys like you immediately dismiss the article reporting on said analysis as "divisive clickbait" so you can go back to patting yourself on the back
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On March 10 2015 06:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:10 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing. The path to unbiased perspective is statistical analysis, and not hitting on gamer women and acknowledging everything they say just to get in their pants. Except every piece of statistical analysis that has ever been done on the topic suggests overwhelmingly that women are severely underrepresented in gaming, more likely to hide their gender while playing, more likely to face harassment, and more likely to quit gaming alltogether...whereupon guys like you immediately dismiss the article reporting on said analysis as "divisive clickbait" so you can go back to patting yourself on the back
Lets not forget the fact that the he assumes to determine if they are getting harassed is through "statistical analysis" because clearly math is going to prove something. Wouldn't want to be clouded by emotions by speaking to people directly, which would damage the thought process of the superior rational mind. I am just waiting to hear that journalism is part of the humanities in education and a flawed discipline.
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On March 10 2015 06:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:10 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing. The path to unbiased perspective is statistical analysis, and not hitting on gamer women and acknowledging everything they say just to get in their pants. Except every piece of statistical analysis that has ever been done on the topic suggests overwhelmingly that women are severely underrepresented in gaming, more likely to hide their gender while playing, more likely to face harassment, and more likely to quit gaming alltogether...whereupon guys like you immediately dismiss the article as "divisive clickbait" so you can go back to patting yourself on the back
Then show me the data. From what some suggested in the thread, everybody was almost equally insulted online.
Quick search and found this :
An analysis of 2 million tweets by the think tank Demos reveals that male public figures are several times more likely than women to receive abuse on Twitter.
The think-tank analysed 2,006,616 tweets over a two-week period that were sent to a selection of the most prominent and widely-followed public figures on Twitter.
The study included celebrities, politicians, journalists and musicians – specifically chosen to ensure an equal number - roughly one million - were aimed at each gender.
It found:
- 2.54% of the tweets containing the @ username of male public figures contained abuse, compared to only 0.95% of the tweets received by prominent women.
- Over 1 in 20 (5.19%) of the tweets sent to male celebrities included abuse, compared with 1 in 70 (1.37%) aimed at female celebrities.
- Journalism is the only category where women received more abuse than men, with female journalists and TV news presenters receiving roughly three times as much abuse as their male counterparts.
- Men were much more likely to troll public figures via social media. Three-quarters of the abuse received by prominent men, and over 60% of abuse received by women, was tweeted by men.
- Piers Morgan, Ricky Gervais and Katie Hopkins were three of the most likely celebrities to receive abuse.
http://demos.co.uk/press_releases/demosmalecelebritiesreceivemoreabuseontwitterthanwomen
![[image loading]](http://www.pbs.org/mediashift/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2014/10/Screen-Shot-2014-10-22-at-3.05.51-PM-e1413989238391.png)
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On March 10 2015 06:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:10 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing. The path to unbiased perspective is statistical analysis, and not hitting on gamer women and acknowledging everything they say just to get in their pants. Except every piece of statistical analysis that has ever been done on the topic suggests overwhelmingly that women are severely underrepresented in gaming, more likely to hide their gender while playing, more likely to face harassment, and more likely to quit gaming alltogether...whereupon guys like you immediately dismiss the article as "divisive clickbait" so you can go back to patting yourself on the back
Well, you've got two points. One, that the gender ratio in people playing games is heavily weighted toward men, which is very true. And it's been true since the days of Pong, Pacman, Asteroids, etc. because of a cultural attitude toward where video games sat along the gender divide (the ever present "boys plays with trucks and girls play with dolls").
The other is that women are being driven away from gaming. Which can certainly be true on an anecdotal level, but in terms of sheer numbers and ratio, it's basically false. It depends on genre and game, but even just looking at the hardcore gaming base, the number of women playing games is growing constantly.
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For analysis on rates of online harassment by gender, here's a few studies:
http://www.vg247.com/2012/09/08/study-80-of-gamers-believe-sexism-is-rampant-in-the-gaming-community/
Matthew’s study found that women were harassed four times more than men, and 63% of women reported being called a “c*nt, bitch, slut, and whore.” Others reported they were threatened with sexual assault, or asked for sexual favors, and stereotypical comments regarding female gender roles were prevalent as well. We’re assuming these comments include, but were not limited to: ‘go make me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen and make me some pie.’
Many insults hurled at the women, according to the survey participants, also included derogatory comments regarding their weight or general physical appearance.
“Women were also much more likely to quit playing a game because of sex-based harassment than were men,” says the report. “35.8% of women reported having quit playing temporarily because of sexism, and 9.6% reported that they quit playing a certain game permanently because of harassment.
“The numbers for men in the same areas were 11.7% and 2.6% respectively – about a third of the percentage for women in each case.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/28/yes-men-can-be-victims-of-online-harassment-but-in-reality-women-have-it-much-worse/
A new Pew Research study found that 40 percent of all Internet users have experienced some harassment online, and 73 percent have witnessed others being harassed. But even though online harassment has become a ubiquitous experience, the way it is experienced differs radically between men and women. The Pew study determined that women are more likely to be victims of its more severe forms, including stalking and sexual harassment, while men are more likely to experience less severe forms, such as name-calling.
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On March 10 2015 04:06 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:49 Umpteen wrote:On March 10 2015 03:16 Zambrah wrote:But what do female gamers do about it now? Again, I'm not saying we just shouldn't have discussions about the way females are being treated in games, its pretty heinous, what I'm saying is that those discussions aren't changing things immediately and what other options do we have to make gaming more pleasant for female gamers in the present rather than the future, than for them to 1. adopt thicker skins, 2. stay out of vitriolic cesspools. It just seems to me that people refuse to accept that sometimes you have take some personal action, the world can't immediately change around you, sometimes you have to do this sort of thing. Which, again, sucks. But what are the real alternatives? <snip> it confuses me that people would refuse to take certain measures to have a more pleasant gaming experience out of some idealist principle. Ok, I'm going to give you the opportunity to think of a few historical parallels to this before I point them out to you. How the hell is trying to shine a spotlight on the shittiness of gaming culture, often at the cost of considerable personal anguish, not taking personal action? Should girls dress like men to reduce the chances of being raped? The way to fix this problem is to increase how visible it is, not hide it under the carpet. What we need is more people speaking out, of both genders. That's how girls start feeling welcome and valued. We don't need people telling girls to hide who they are to avoid incurring the wrath of the boys who were, after all, there first... I have never said to sweep it under the rug. Not once.
Well... yes you did. When someone keeps their head down and goes along to get along, or goes out of their way to avoid confronting a problem, as you're advising girls to do, they're not just minimising the impact of the problem on themselves. They're enabling the problem. They make it so that others experiencing the problem feel isolated and unsupported, and guarantee that anyone who reacts honestly will be singled out for abuse.
This is the attitude that I dont think makes any sense, rejecting intermediary solutions because they're not up to your idealistic standards.
Again, I'll let you think about some historical parallels to that. If everyone followed your advice there would be no suffragettes, no hunger strikes, no protests in Tiananmen square. What kind of fucking idiot stands in front of a tank, anyway? Rhetorical question: someone who wants to make sure a problem doesn't get swept under the carpet.
Why shouldn't they mute dumbfucks and ignore dipshits? Yeah, I get it, in an ideal world its not necessary.
Because it's less effective than acting.
Seriously: here we are in one of your 'discussions' that's supposed to achieve something, and I can't even convince you, who's supposedly on my side, that assholes should be challenged in any way for the way they behave. What is this going to achieve?
This is NOT that ideal world. These are some of the tools we have in the meantime while the discussions are still happening and people are still changing and (hopefully) improving. Ignoring them out of some weird idealistic principle is something I do not grasp, and I doubt I ever will.
Does this make my thoughts clearer?
Sure, although I was already pretty clear 
You've assumed that taking these interim steps is all benefit, no downside, and that rejecting them is incomprehensible, like someone refusing painkillers because the dentist is closed. But that's not the case. Inconveniencing yourself in order to demonstrate how strongly you feel about something, to bring it to the attention of others, to convince them there's something worth caring about, is a well-established practice with a successful track-record.
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On March 10 2015 06:17 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:10 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing. The path to unbiased perspective is statistical analysis, and not hitting on gamer women and acknowledging everything they say just to get in their pants. Except every piece of statistical analysis that has ever been done on the topic suggests overwhelmingly that women are severely underrepresented in gaming, more likely to hide their gender while playing, more likely to face harassment, and more likely to quit gaming alltogether...whereupon guys like you immediately dismiss the article as "divisive clickbait" so you can go back to patting yourself on the back Then show me the data. From what some suggested in the thread, everybody was almost equally insulted online. Quick search and found this : Show nested quote +An analysis of 2 million tweets by the think tank Demos reveals that male public figures are several times more likely than women to receive abuse on Twitter.
The think-tank analysed 2,006,616 tweets over a two-week period that were sent to a selection of the most prominent and widely-followed public figures on Twitter.
The study included celebrities, politicians, journalists and musicians – specifically chosen to ensure an equal number - roughly one million - were aimed at each gender.
It found:
- 2.54% of the tweets containing the @ username of male public figures contained abuse, compared to only 0.95% of the tweets received by prominent women.
- Over 1 in 20 (5.19%) of the tweets sent to male celebrities included abuse, compared with 1 in 70 (1.37%) aimed at female celebrities.
- Journalism is the only category where women received more abuse than men, with female journalists and TV news presenters receiving roughly three times as much abuse as their male counterparts.
- Men were much more likely to troll public figures via social media. Three-quarters of the abuse received by prominent men, and over 60% of abuse received by women, was tweeted by men.
- Piers Morgan, Ricky Gervais and Katie Hopkins were three of the most likely celebrities to receive abuse. http://demos.co.uk/press_releases/demosmalecelebritiesreceivemoreabuseontwitterthanwomen
Part of the problem with relying solely on data, is defining ones terms. For instance the twitter study included just the presence of certain words as abuse "Clitoris" being among them...
If you look at the twitter study some of the "abuse" is totally ridiculous to consider abuse, so the sheer volume of them is basically meaningless.
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On March 10 2015 06:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:For analysis on rates of online harassment by gender, here's a few studies: http://www.vg247.com/2012/09/08/study-80-of-gamers-believe-sexism-is-rampant-in-the-gaming-community/Show nested quote +Matthew’s study found that women were harassed four times more than men, and 63% of women reported being called a “c*nt, bitch, slut, and whore.” Others reported they were threatened with sexual assault, or asked for sexual favors, and stereotypical comments regarding female gender roles were prevalent as well. We’re assuming these comments include, but were not limited to: ‘go make me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen and make me some pie.’
Many insults hurled at the women, according to the survey participants, also included derogatory comments regarding their weight or general physical appearance.
“Women were also much more likely to quit playing a game because of sex-based harassment than were men,” says the report. “35.8% of women reported having quit playing temporarily because of sexism, and 9.6% reported that they quit playing a certain game permanently because of harassment.
“The numbers for men in the same areas were 11.7% and 2.6% respectively – about a third of the percentage for women in each case.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/28/yes-men-can-be-victims-of-online-harassment-but-in-reality-women-have-it-much-worse/Show nested quote +A new Pew Research study found that 40 percent of all Internet users have experienced some harassment online, and 73 percent have witnessed others being harassed. But even though online harassment has become a ubiquitous experience, the way it is experienced differs radically between men and women. The Pew study determined that women are more likely to be victims of its more severe forms, including stalking and sexual harassment, while men are more likely to experience less severe forms, such as name-calling.
"sex based harassment", how about harassment in general? the only reason women get sex based harassment is because they respond to it, fueling the fire. Sex based harassment don't work on guys, so usually the target shifts towards their mothers, and shit.
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On March 10 2015 06:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:For analysis on rates of online harassment by gender, here's a few studies: http://www.vg247.com/2012/09/08/study-80-of-gamers-believe-sexism-is-rampant-in-the-gaming-community/Show nested quote +Matthew’s study found that women were harassed four times more than men, and 63% of women reported being called a “c*nt, bitch, slut, and whore.” Others reported they were threatened with sexual assault, or asked for sexual favors, and stereotypical comments regarding female gender roles were prevalent as well. We’re assuming these comments include, but were not limited to: ‘go make me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen and make me some pie.’
Many insults hurled at the women, according to the survey participants, also included derogatory comments regarding their weight or general physical appearance.
“Women were also much more likely to quit playing a game because of sex-based harassment than were men,” says the report. “35.8% of women reported having quit playing temporarily because of sexism, and 9.6% reported that they quit playing a certain game permanently because of harassment.
“The numbers for men in the same areas were 11.7% and 2.6% respectively – about a third of the percentage for women in each case.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/28/yes-men-can-be-victims-of-online-harassment-but-in-reality-women-have-it-much-worse/Show nested quote +A new Pew Research study found that 40 percent of all Internet users have experienced some harassment online, and 73 percent have witnessed others being harassed. But even though online harassment has become a ubiquitous experience, the way it is experienced differs radically between men and women. The Pew study determined that women are more likely to be victims of its more severe forms, including stalking and sexual harassment, while men are more likely to experience less severe forms, such as name-calling.
So barely any differences aside from the fact that women react differently (leaving the game) and that the insults / behaviors directed at them are different (stalking and sexual harrassment rather than physical threat). Exactly like the data I linked btw.
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On March 10 2015 06:38 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:For analysis on rates of online harassment by gender, here's a few studies: http://www.vg247.com/2012/09/08/study-80-of-gamers-believe-sexism-is-rampant-in-the-gaming-community/Matthew’s study found that women were harassed four times more than men, and 63% of women reported being called a “c*nt, bitch, slut, and whore.” Others reported they were threatened with sexual assault, or asked for sexual favors, and stereotypical comments regarding female gender roles were prevalent as well. We’re assuming these comments include, but were not limited to: ‘go make me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen and make me some pie.’
Many insults hurled at the women, according to the survey participants, also included derogatory comments regarding their weight or general physical appearance.
“Women were also much more likely to quit playing a game because of sex-based harassment than were men,” says the report. “35.8% of women reported having quit playing temporarily because of sexism, and 9.6% reported that they quit playing a certain game permanently because of harassment.
“The numbers for men in the same areas were 11.7% and 2.6% respectively – about a third of the percentage for women in each case.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/28/yes-men-can-be-victims-of-online-harassment-but-in-reality-women-have-it-much-worse/A new Pew Research study found that 40 percent of all Internet users have experienced some harassment online, and 73 percent have witnessed others being harassed. But even though online harassment has become a ubiquitous experience, the way it is experienced differs radically between men and women. The Pew study determined that women are more likely to be victims of its more severe forms, including stalking and sexual harassment, while men are more likely to experience less severe forms, such as name-calling. "sex based harassment", how about harassment in general? the only reason women get sex based harassment is because they respond to it, fueling the fire. Sex based harassment don't work on guys, so usually the target shifts towards their mothers, and shit.
So basically its women's fault they get sexually harassed because they respond to it? You are like one step away from saying "She was asking for it."
On March 10 2015 06:39 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:For analysis on rates of online harassment by gender, here's a few studies: http://www.vg247.com/2012/09/08/study-80-of-gamers-believe-sexism-is-rampant-in-the-gaming-community/Matthew’s study found that women were harassed four times more than men, and 63% of women reported being called a “c*nt, bitch, slut, and whore.” Others reported they were threatened with sexual assault, or asked for sexual favors, and stereotypical comments regarding female gender roles were prevalent as well. We’re assuming these comments include, but were not limited to: ‘go make me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen and make me some pie.’
Many insults hurled at the women, according to the survey participants, also included derogatory comments regarding their weight or general physical appearance.
“Women were also much more likely to quit playing a game because of sex-based harassment than were men,” says the report. “35.8% of women reported having quit playing temporarily because of sexism, and 9.6% reported that they quit playing a certain game permanently because of harassment.
“The numbers for men in the same areas were 11.7% and 2.6% respectively – about a third of the percentage for women in each case.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/28/yes-men-can-be-victims-of-online-harassment-but-in-reality-women-have-it-much-worse/A new Pew Research study found that 40 percent of all Internet users have experienced some harassment online, and 73 percent have witnessed others being harassed. But even though online harassment has become a ubiquitous experience, the way it is experienced differs radically between men and women. The Pew study determined that women are more likely to be victims of its more severe forms, including stalking and sexual harassment, while men are more likely to experience less severe forms, such as name-calling. So barely any differences aside from the fact that women react differently (leaving the game) and that the insults / behaviors directed at them are different (stalking and sexual harrassment rather than physical threat). Exactly like the data I linked btw.
The evidence is linked in both stories in nearly the first or second paragraph.
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On March 10 2015 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:38 wei2coolman wrote:On March 10 2015 06:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:For analysis on rates of online harassment by gender, here's a few studies: http://www.vg247.com/2012/09/08/study-80-of-gamers-believe-sexism-is-rampant-in-the-gaming-community/Matthew’s study found that women were harassed four times more than men, and 63% of women reported being called a “c*nt, bitch, slut, and whore.” Others reported they were threatened with sexual assault, or asked for sexual favors, and stereotypical comments regarding female gender roles were prevalent as well. We’re assuming these comments include, but were not limited to: ‘go make me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen and make me some pie.’
Many insults hurled at the women, according to the survey participants, also included derogatory comments regarding their weight or general physical appearance.
“Women were also much more likely to quit playing a game because of sex-based harassment than were men,” says the report. “35.8% of women reported having quit playing temporarily because of sexism, and 9.6% reported that they quit playing a certain game permanently because of harassment.
“The numbers for men in the same areas were 11.7% and 2.6% respectively – about a third of the percentage for women in each case.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/28/yes-men-can-be-victims-of-online-harassment-but-in-reality-women-have-it-much-worse/A new Pew Research study found that 40 percent of all Internet users have experienced some harassment online, and 73 percent have witnessed others being harassed. But even though online harassment has become a ubiquitous experience, the way it is experienced differs radically between men and women. The Pew study determined that women are more likely to be victims of its more severe forms, including stalking and sexual harassment, while men are more likely to experience less severe forms, such as name-calling. "sex based harassment", how about harassment in general? the only reason women get sex based harassment is because they respond to it, fueling the fire. Sex based harassment don't work on guys, so usually the target shifts towards their mothers, and shit. So basically its women's fault they get sexually harassed because they respond to it? You are like one step away from saying "She was asking for it."
lmao. no.
i'm saying they're going to get harassed severely REGARDLESS of their sex. the only reason the harassment shows up as "sex based harassment", is because they respond to it.
For example, if we got an American black female gamer, and somehow trolls find out she's black and female. After "why are you gaming in the kitchen?" insults don't work, they'll start using racist insults instead, or some combo of sex based and race based insults. If those don't work, they'll start combining American police-state politics with the fact that she's black to insult her. etc etc.
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EPT
