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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 10 2015 09:36 Shiragaku wrote:
I hope no one is going to try to equate rape threats, stalking, and sexual harassment on the same level as other forms of harassment. Let's not be illogical here.
Exactly, where is logic in pretending that one form of verbal harassment on teh Internets is not equal to another form of verbal harassment on teh Internets? I mean, rape threat is just as legitimate as "i'll beat you IRL" threat.
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Northern Ireland26620 Posts
On March 10 2015 09:36 Shiragaku wrote:I hope no one is going to try to equate rape threats, stalking, and sexual harassment on the same level as other forms of harassment. Let's not be illogical here. http://fatuglyorslutty.com/And before anyone tries to say use the example of someone saying "You got raped" when a one sided game happens, my sister made it clear that there is a huge difference between someone saying you got owned in a vulgar and immature way compared to saying "I will rape you" upon finding out the person is female. Show nested quote +Also fuck any girl who uses her gender and sexuality to gain a following in eSports/Twitch and then who subsequently complains about sexism if it's negative. Sexism isn't just negativity, it can be 'positive' - witness the idea of chivalrous behaviour which perpetuates sexism just as much as negative BS does. When I played PSO with my sister, many of the guild members I was with would give all these gifts to her (some of which I got to keep  ) due to the fact that she was a girl and would keep on insisting she has these gifts even when she refused. This certainly is better than being called a bitch, but to somehow call this patronizing behavior "positive" is a step too far. Polar opposite treatment is not always better.
You're echoing my own opinion, I wouldn't have put 'positive' in quotation marks if I thought it was actually a positive thing.
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On March 10 2015 09:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ideally this wouldn't be an issue. Personally I tend towards Millitron's 'misogyny is the mechanism rather than the motivator' line of reasoning, for the most part. There are genuinely misogynistic assholes out there, but the majority I would surmise use a female gamer's gender as the stick to beat them with while trash talking, rather than it being the reason behind it. Likewise racist insults, likewise other. I don't really care myself for such trash talk, but once it became clear I was Irish I got a lot of abuse tailored towards that and I believe much of this is in a similar vein.
Frankly I'm fed up with this kind of fucking shit. Gaming's 'toxicity' is at worst a symptom of general societal misogyny and not a fucking root cause, these kind of articles and discussions lead nowhere.
Want a world without this kind of blowback? Stop making celebrities out of women solely because they're hot, stop picking apart womens' physical flaws for the sake of copy, stop defining women by their attractiveness in the media culture. Stop placing those on a pedestal who have these rarified characteristics to the detriment of those who don't. An entire industry operates around pointing out flaws in beautiful women and then playing on the physical hangups of those who don't measure up to these archetypes.
Oh but yeah fuck me gamers are such dicks for being unpleasant over the internet.
Also fuck any girl who uses her gender and sexuality to gain a following in eSports/Twitch and then who subsequently complains about sexism if it's negative. Sexism isn't just negativity, it can be 'positive' - witness the idea of chivalrous behaviour which perpetuates sexism just as much as negative BS does.
Women can definitely profit off of sexism, but that doesn't make it positive sexism. She may be making money, but the practice is still hurtful to the gaming culture as a whole because she is exploiting attention-starved young men and making the situation worse. It shouldn't be surprising to you that not all women are a force for good on this particular topic, just like not all men are a force for evil.
It doesn't matter if misogyny is the mechanism or the motive, it doesn't make it any less misogynistic. The victim receives the insult in the exact same way, and an argument could be made that using it as the mechanism is worse because it requires a calculated determination of what would hurt that particular person the most rather than just a visceral reaction in-game. But that doesn't really matter in the long run.
Agreed, there are many aspects of society where the portrayal of women is unfair. But we are on a gaming website talking about a gaming documentary about women. It makes sense that we would talk about what can be done in our little corner of popular culture. And it's a difficult question to answer.
EDIT: I see you clarified the positive remark.
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The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves.
On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways.
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On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways.
Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant.
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On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways.
All evidence says that's not true. The harassers want their targets to suffer in silence. They don't want their target to speak out against them. There is no evidence that reporting on harassment makes it go away faster.
On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant.
Clearly ignoring the problem and never talking about it will make it go away.
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Female gamers are actually very common these days.
However they just differ from male gamers in what type of games they play.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 10 2015 10:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. All evidence says that's not true. The harassers want their targets to suffer in silence. They don't want their target to speak out against them. There is no evidence that reporting on harassment makes it go away faster. Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant. Clearly ignoring the problem and never talking about it will make it go away.
I suppose, you missed the point. My proposed solution is not ignoring the existence of problem, but using ignore as the best way to combat such behavior. And as such, it's by far most effective one.
On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant.
And here is the trick: there is no discrimination, there is just an attention whoring via provoking reaction, as have been stated multiple of times. That's obviously not talking about post-game flaming, that is just plain raging 90% of time, so there is nothing to even talk about. I mean, you could talk about existing discrimination if any given social group was not plain allowed into games on a basis of them belonging to that very group, but last time i checked, the times of manual hosting of the games are gone long ago in not-competitive setting. But then again, last time i checked, the topic is not about disallowing females into games, but harassing them.
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As do discrimation is only caused by people asking for it. What a novel point of view that I have never heard before ever. Of course the the only people complaining abou sexism and racism are really just dirty scam artists trying to trick people put of their money. Of course that's the case.
Give me a break.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 10 2015 10:44 Plansix wrote:
As do discrimation is only caused by people asking for it. What a novel point of view that I have never heard before ever. Of course the the only people complaining abou sexism and racism are really just dirty scam artists trying to trick people put of their money. Of course that's the case.
Give me a break.
Once again, point my stupid head right into the discrimination you're talking about.
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On March 10 2015 10:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. All evidence says that's not true. The harassers want their targets to suffer in silence. They don't want their target to speak out against them. There is no evidence that reporting on harassment makes it go away faster. Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant. Clearly ignoring the problem and never talking about it will make it go away.
You ever been trolled in a thread on a forum? 4chan is the best example, but any forum will do. Did responding to the troll in any way help?
I've seen many a troll thread on 4chan, and the ones that get wrapped up the quickest are the ones where no one takes the bait. The troll gains nothing if you do not respond to them. How could they know if their target is "suffering in silence"? If their target says nothing, the troll gets no input.
But women have become an "e celebrity" through sexism without assholes harassing them. How do you think those streamers who a poor to average at whatever game it is get so many subs? Could it possibly be because they wear low-cut tops in their stream?
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On March 10 2015 10:47 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:28 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. All evidence says that's not true. The harassers want their targets to suffer in silence. They don't want their target to speak out against them. There is no evidence that reporting on harassment makes it go away faster. On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant. Clearly ignoring the problem and never talking about it will make it go away. You ever been trolled in a thread on a forum? 4chan is the best example, but any forum will do. Did responding to the troll in any way help? I've seen many a troll thread on 4chan, and the ones that get wrapped up the quickest are the ones where no one takes the bait. The troll gains nothing if you do not respond to them. How could they know if their target is "suffering in silence"? If their target says nothing, the troll gets no input. But women have become an "e celebrity" through sexism without assholes harassing them. How do you think those streamers who a poor to average at whatever game it is get so many subs? Could it possibly be because they wear low-cut tops in their stream?
4chan is also the perfect example of how they'll say anything to get a response.
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On March 10 2015 09:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ideally this wouldn't be an issue. Personally I tend towards Millitron's 'misogyny is the mechanism rather than the motivator' line of reasoning, for the most part. There are genuinely misogynistic assholes out there, but the majority I would surmise use a female gamer's gender as the stick to beat them with while trash talking, rather than it being the reason behind it. Likewise racist insults, likewise other. I don't really care myself for such trash talk, but once it became clear I was Irish I got a lot of abuse tailored towards that and I believe much of this is in a similar vein.
Frankly I'm fed up with this kind of fucking shit. Gaming's 'toxicity' is at worst a symptom of general societal misogyny and not a fucking root cause, these kind of articles and discussions lead nowhere.
Want a world without this kind of blowback? Stop making celebrities out of women solely because they're hot, stop picking apart womens' physical flaws for the sake of copy, stop defining women by their attractiveness in the media culture. Stop placing those on a pedestal who have these rarified characteristics to the detriment of those who don't. An entire industry operates around pointing out flaws in beautiful women and then playing on the physical hangups of those who don't measure up to these archetypes.
Oh but yeah fuck me gamers are such dicks for being unpleasant over the internet.
Also fuck any girl who uses her gender and sexuality to gain a following in eSports/Twitch and then who subsequently complains about sexism if it's negative. Sexism isn't just negativity, it can be 'positive' - witness the idea of chivalrous behaviour which perpetuates sexism just as much as negative BS does.
I agree with this, especially about the media/celebrity culture. I think people forget that the word misogyny means a hatred of women. There is no more misogynistic industry than the ones teaching women they should hate themselves. This would be not gaming, but the fashion, cosmetic, celebrity gossip industries and so on. But lets just continue calling everyone misogynists and ignore where it is actually coming from. I wish more women would take a stand against misogyny that is supported and perpetuated by females. Self hatred is far more toxic than that which comes from without.
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On March 10 2015 10:47 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:28 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. All evidence says that's not true. The harassers want their targets to suffer in silence. They don't want their target to speak out against them. There is no evidence that reporting on harassment makes it go away faster. On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant. Clearly ignoring the problem and never talking about it will make it go away. You ever been trolled in a thread on a forum? 4chan is the best example, but any forum will do. Did responding to the troll in any way help? I've seen many a troll thread on 4chan, and the ones that get wrapped up the quickest are the ones where no one takes the bait. The troll gains nothing if you do not respond to them. How could they know if their target is "suffering in silence"? If their target says nothing, the troll gets no input. But women have become an "e celebrity" through sexism without assholes harassing them. How do you think those streamers who a poor to average at whatever game it is get so many subs? Could it possibly be because they wear low-cut tops in their stream?
Yes, because 4chan and substantiated, long term stalking and harassment are the same thing. Clearly the solution is that if your being harassed is to do so silently and just ignore it. Of course it will go away. That's totally how harassment works.
Except that doesn't happen and the women that have been harassed have said it does not go away. Some of them have been harassed for years. Thats why a lot of them are speaking out now, because they have said "well being silent has gotten me nothing." And I am sure they are super interested for the input from a bunch of guys on how the harassment is really their fault for responding and they should have just ignored it.
Next thing you will tell me is that girls wouldn't get harassed in public if they didn't wear such sexy outfits.
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On March 10 2015 09:36 Shiragaku wrote:I hope no one is going to try to equate rape threats, stalking, and sexual harassment on the same level as other forms of harassment. Let's not be illogical here. http://fatuglyorslutty.com/And before anyone tries to say use the example of someone saying "You got raped" when a one sided game happens, my sister made it clear that there is a huge difference between someone saying you got owned in a vulgar and immature way compared to saying "I will rape you" upon finding out the person is female.
Skipping the apples and oranges bit, I'm interested in whether you or your sister believe there's a difference between saying "I will rape you" to a man vs. to a woman?
On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point.
Whether you call it sexism or not, there exist sexual asymmetries that benefit women and these are manifested in the gaming community also.
Earlier you said something which I take to mean it's can be profitable to talk/write/broadcast about the subjects of sexism or sexual harassment. Said success having nothing to do with whether the person talking was harassed in the act of broadcasting... until now? (Have I misinterpreted you?)
On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money?
And it's not a very advanced form of sophistry when someone's position is "Disagreeing with me just proves my point." Neither is it a great idea to accept people who purport to speak for an entire gender, for instance if you noticed the women in this thread who expressed skepticism.
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On March 10 2015 10:47 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:28 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. All evidence says that's not true. The harassers want their targets to suffer in silence. They don't want their target to speak out against them. There is no evidence that reporting on harassment makes it go away faster. On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant. Clearly ignoring the problem and never talking about it will make it go away. You ever been trolled in a thread on a forum? 4chan is the best example, but any forum will do. Did responding to the troll in any way help? I've seen many a troll thread on 4chan, and the ones that get wrapped up the quickest are the ones where no one takes the bait. The troll gains nothing if you do not respond to them. How could they know if their target is "suffering in silence"? If their target says nothing, the troll gets no input. But women have become an "e celebrity" through sexism without assholes harassing them. How do you think those streamers who a poor to average at whatever game it is get so many subs? Could it possibly be because they wear low-cut tops in their stream?
I keep seeing this reasoning and it has to be pointed out that skill at any particular game has little to nothing to do with why plenty of male streamers get subs or viewers (or don't for that matter) either.
The commercial sexualization of women isn't the sole creation of female streamers. Short of wearing a full burka female gamers would continue to see accusations of using sex to sell their stream. Hell even then people would probably still accuse them of using their "sexy mystique" or "sensual voice" and so on. All the while, not realizing the comedy in this context.
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On March 10 2015 11:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:47 Millitron wrote:On March 10 2015 10:28 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. All evidence says that's not true. The harassers want their targets to suffer in silence. They don't want their target to speak out against them. There is no evidence that reporting on harassment makes it go away faster. On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant. Clearly ignoring the problem and never talking about it will make it go away. You ever been trolled in a thread on a forum? 4chan is the best example, but any forum will do. Did responding to the troll in any way help? I've seen many a troll thread on 4chan, and the ones that get wrapped up the quickest are the ones where no one takes the bait. The troll gains nothing if you do not respond to them. How could they know if their target is "suffering in silence"? If their target says nothing, the troll gets no input. But women have become an "e celebrity" through sexism without assholes harassing them. How do you think those streamers who a poor to average at whatever game it is get so many subs? Could it possibly be because they wear low-cut tops in their stream? I keep seeing this reasoning and it has to be pointed out that skill at any particular game has little to nothing to do with why plenty of male streamers get subs or viewers either. The commercial sexualization of women isn't the sole creation of female streamers. Short of wearing a full burka female gamers would continue to see accusations of using sex to sell their stream. Hell even then people would probably still accuse them of using their "sexy mystique" or "sensual voice" and so on. All the while, not realizing the irony in this context.
The girl could literally be 7K in dota wearing a sack, no make up and have a shaved head and guys would still question how she got the viewers and if she was really 7K.
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On March 10 2015 10:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:36 Shiragaku wrote:I hope no one is going to try to equate rape threats, stalking, and sexual harassment on the same level as other forms of harassment. Let's not be illogical here. http://fatuglyorslutty.com/And before anyone tries to say use the example of someone saying "You got raped" when a one sided game happens, my sister made it clear that there is a huge difference between someone saying you got owned in a vulgar and immature way compared to saying "I will rape you" upon finding out the person is female. Skipping the apples and oranges bit, I'm interested in whether you or your sister believe there's a difference between saying "I will rape you" to a man vs. to a woman?
Never asked her about that, but I am sure she would say that threatening to rape someone with the intent of making it known they mean "I will sexually assault you" is nothing short of being fucked up and very threatening as any decent human being would say. History is filled with men raping men, but the internet is not exactly a place where this is widespread, but it is a common threat for women. However, I am not saying that these things do not happen to men.
+ Show Spoiler +inb4 people try to once again use this to downplay harassment
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Rape is serious and terrible no matter who it happens to, and it also strikes me as hyperbolic to suggest it's a fundamental part of a woman's identity? Did I read this wrong?
You did, because I also said "or experience".
Women are the victims of rape over 90% of the time. There are a whole host of other crimes or occurrences that are more likely to happen for men, whereas rape is a very real possibility that they must be conscious of, not least of all because of the history of our patriarchal society and the fact that rape was legal in many contexts for hundreds (if not thousands) of years.
I think this is plainly backwards, a person's identity will subject them to discrimination from some people and acceptance from others. Discrimination is a function of your identity, it's not where your identity comes from.
You're simplifying identity. Identity isn't just what physical/mental traits someone has, but what someone sees themselves as. White men typically don't have to say, "I'm a white male" when they are asked to give a few characteristics about themselves. Conversely, most black people/homosexuals/women will use these identifiers because they are forced to acknowledge them and forced to be conscious of them due to the fact that they face discrimination or oppression because of these features every day.
Why is it so impossible for "white men" to understand the plight of anyone else? White men are sociopaths and can't experience empathy? They are never the subject of harassment and so they can't relate to someone else?
If you try to exclude people's opinions based on a superficial trait, doesn't that work both ways? Doesn't that work against solidarity and a real conversation? Suppose you grant that it's impossible for you to ever understand what it's like to be a woman and the problems a woman faces. How do you know her experience is better or worse than anyone else's experience? Because she said so? But it's also impossible for her to understand what it's like to be you, right? You only have the experience of you and she only has the experience of her. There's nobody who has 2 reference points to actually compare, right?
No, and the strawmans aren't appreciated. Try a little harder.
It's not a matter of it being impossible (something that I never said). Rather, it's really difficult, and it's really evident when you have people in this country (usually conservatives) saying, "Racism/sexism/homophobia don't exist in this country anymore". Those of you that think these aren't a problem in the gaming community are doing exactly the same thing; you are unable or unwilling to sympathize with the plight of another group that isn't your own and are therefore downplaying the problems. You're entirely capable of it, but it's just not easy, and how is it supposed to be? It's trying to understand the complete absence of something (everyday discrimination).
Another important thing to note is this whole idea of, "Well we suffer too!" The idea that men are the victims of rape (this point can be generalized to discussions about race or sexual orientation as well) as well and therefore we should downplay the problem that women face is 1) incredibly selfish and childish and 2) simply sexist. No one is denying that men suffer too. Yes, men are the victims of rape and rape is a horrible thing no matter the victim. Yes, there aren't proper resources for male victims. However, the overwhelming majority of victims are female. The overwhelming majority of perpetrators are male. Sexism has oppressed women for thousands of years, to a degree that we, as white males, will never come anywhere near experiencing. The only thing that your statement does when brought up in this context is to trivialize the female experience of rape/sexism. It doesn't help. You're not "standing up for the unsung little guy" or whatever. When the problem overwhelmingly affects women, trying to change the conversation and make men out to be the victim is absolutely ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.
Whether you call it sexism or not, there exist sexual asymmetries that benefit women and these are manifested in the gaming community also.
This is a perfect example of what I just mentioned. Mentioning these sexual asymmetries is nothing but a cheap attempt to trivialize the realities of sexism. Any benefits that women get because of these "sexual asymmetries" are completely drowned out by the overwhelming oppression that women suffer as a whole due to sexism. Yes, there are individual cases where women gain unfair advantages due to their sexuality, but to mention this in any sort of serious intellectual discussion about our overall culture is both lazy and insidious. It is no different from mentioning cases of false accusations in rape cases. False accusations aren't any more common in rape cases than any other crime, and yet people regularly mention this to derail discussions about the reality of sexual assault and gender.
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EPT
