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On March 10 2015 17:39 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 17:16 ZenithM wrote:On March 10 2015 16:28 incoherent wrote:On March 10 2015 15:14 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: And I get that it's unfair that as men, we don't have to make special efforts to conceal our gender online (see, I'm not even trying), but until things settle in (in some years, most likely), women should be a bit careful of that first online approach phase where you don't know at all who you're dealing with on the other end of the wire. That's really the issue: it's not going to "settle in" until people who play games make an effort to be inclusive (which implies listening to the people you want to include about what bothers them). You don't just wake up one day and suddenly ~sexism is over~: it takes work. Right now a lot of people who play games want to have it both ways: they want gaming and e-sports to be an accepted part of the larger culture but they don't want it to change at all in the process or, worse, have to change their own behavior. I said "settle in" because I won't lie to you, I won't work for it. I don't know what reasonable well-mannered people can do about it (short of being activists), which, I guess, I consider being a part of. I think most guys are happy to know that girls love gaming too, so this OP is actually most likely preaching to the choir. What do you want me to say? "Yes, girls, like guys, should be treated with respect, IRL or on the Internet?". I try to apply myself to that (I lie, I don't even try). What do you want more? I'm not one to think I have the power to change society's mindset :D The only problem in this thread is the common victim blaming, but what can I do about that either... "Victim blaming is bad!". Edit: As far as I'm concerned, I think I would be ready to accept the end of anonymous Internet. Like, everything you say on the Internet could be tied to your name and identity. That would end "trolling" (the unfunny bullying kind) FAST and HARD. Isn't this just you saying "girls in gaiming are great, but I am too lazy to do anything to make them feel welcomed", i.e. the exact point incoherent was making.
The exact point is, if you need to go out of your way to make girls especially feel welcome, you're doing it wrong. They probably don't want that either.
On March 10 2015 18:34 incoherent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 17:16 ZenithM wrote:On March 10 2015 16:28 incoherent wrote:On March 10 2015 15:14 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: And I get that it's unfair that as men, we don't have to make special efforts to conceal our gender online (see, I'm not even trying), but until things settle in (in some years, most likely), women should be a bit careful of that first online approach phase where you don't know at all who you're dealing with on the other end of the wire. That's really the issue: it's not going to "settle in" until people who play games make an effort to be inclusive (which implies listening to the people you want to include about what bothers them). You don't just wake up one day and suddenly ~sexism is over~: it takes work. Right now a lot of people who play games want to have it both ways: they want gaming and e-sports to be an accepted part of the larger culture but they don't want it to change at all in the process or, worse, have to change their own behavior. I said "settle in" because I won't lie to you, I won't work for it. I don't know what reasonable well-mannered people can do about it (short of being activists), which, I guess, I consider being a part of. I think most guys are happy to know that girls love gaming too, so this OP is actually most likely preaching to the choir. What do you want me to say? "Yes, girls, like guys, should be treated with respect, IRL or on the Internet?". I try to apply myself to that (I lie, I don't even try). What do you want more? I'm not one to think I have the power to change society's mindset :D Start small, then: if you see something that clearly makes someone else uncomfortable, call it out. As a privileged person you might get listened to in ways that less privileged people would not.
"Call it out", hmm, where exactly am I to do such a thing?
I'm aware that what I'm saying may be perceived as "we don't need to do anything, everything is fine, as I am a privileged white male". I'm almost intentionally voicing it as such, if I really thought that, I wouldn't even have read the thread. My point is that it's not really easy to contribute, as male, to a feminist cause, because you will always most likely doing it wrong (either being a sexist motherfucker or some retrograde white knight douche). Probably the only way to go about it is to just listen attentively, stay on the sideline, voice your support, however feeble it is (like I do here), get out of the way and let the feminists go to town.
Edit: I guess the real deal is, this is not a problem with gaming, but with sexism in general society. And online gaming, with all the social loopholes it has (anonymity and distance mainly, not having to answer for what you say makes for some pretty easy rude trashtalk opportunities) is really not the ground to settle this debate.
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I think we're on the same page. Treating girls like magical objects also gets annoying. But we can just be respectful human beings to them, and do our part to discourage bad behaviour. On calling people out, even if its in the context of a private discussion with your guild mate (asking him to treat someone else less rudely), that helps.
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On March 10 2015 22:23 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: I guess the real deal is, this is not a problem with gaming, but with sexism in general society. And online gaming, with all the social loopholes it has (anonymity and distance mainly, not having to answer for what you say makes for some pretty easy rude trashtalk opportunities) is really not the ground to settle this debate.
This is pretty much the larger issue at hand. Gaming isn’t any different that any other male dominated field when it comes to issues with sexism. Sports has had and still has the same problem when women want to get involved. The same arguments are made, that women are not dawn to competitive activities and don’t want to play competitive sports/games.
That part of the discussion is a huge bummer, that a lot of people are reciting the same arguments used by sexist people of the past who wanted to keep women out of a specific hobby or field. Some of the arguments date all the way back to women’s suffrage and its saddening to see them regurgitated over our hobby. The gaming community likes to think its “inclusive”, but then creates such friction when women start to talk about things that would make gaming more inviting to them.
But it’s a time thing. Over time it will fade and we will get awesome games with awesome female characters. Personally I am happy, because I am bored with the loner male protagonist with a dark past and quipy sense of humor. I need more Korra in my games, less that guy from Shadow’s of Mordor.
Except Nathan Drake, they can keep making games about him forever.
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Attacking people regardless of their race, sex or any specific characteristic is equally BAD/WRONG.
Trolling is the tool used by people to trigger reactions on others or to vent their frustrations. I wonder where are the parents of such children, and how they think.
How a person is affected when they experience such situations is strictly personal.
In the same way, how people express themselves towards others is also strictly personal, but as one interacts with other people, none is inside someone else's head so it is bound to different interpretations. Putting ourselves in someone else's shoes before doing anything is a rarely used practice.
Verbal sexual harassment is as bad as racist harassment or any other kind of harassment, but people tend to weight them differently because of history and personal experiences and ideas and feelings.
No one will ever win an argument over which one is currently worse, as opposed to which one was worse in some specific point of time.
There are fat guys who are not affected when they are called fat guy, there are girls who are offended by girls using their gender to get advantages because that undermines what they fight for. There are black guys who don't give a f*ck when called ni**er because they know how little is the mind of the perpetrator.
And of course the opposite, that is why all this is personal.
I always hear people express themselves like, if women suffered sexism for thousands of years then it is not enough if today sexism doesn't exist anymore (of course it exists) to make it even. The world must turn feminist for a long time and THEN we are even.
If current society should pay the price for the errors and crimes committed by people that are not around anymore. Then, for instance, Europa has a big debt with America for all the killing and pillaging. And there are a lot of cases like that one.
This matter has a long history already and it will have some more pages if not books. There is no need to go active, but it helps, to solve the matter (you are free to do it), as long as you educate the ones around you, it should eventually solve.
Of course it would be really beautiful if the solution came tomorrow, but it won't happen even if everyone went active, why? because cultures are different, they do not think alike and for that to happen we must wait a long time.
Don't forget that there are still humans living like two thousands years before.
Note: Funny facts:
- I have a friend living in the USA, she has kids and told me that at school they learned that mexicans are narcoterrorists and the geopolitical map they showed her kids included part of Mexico as US territory. That is some teaching!
- The current Pope before he was Pope he was against same gender marriage in Argentine. And after he went Pope he switched sides and now he agrees with it.
So as you can see education has a long way to go, due to society, culture, religion and personal opinions.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
lol wow 500 posts on an obvious situation. why so defensive.
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On March 10 2015 22:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 22:23 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: I guess the real deal is, this is not a problem with gaming, but with sexism in general society. And online gaming, with all the social loopholes it has (anonymity and distance mainly, not having to answer for what you say makes for some pretty easy rude trashtalk opportunities) is really not the ground to settle this debate. This is pretty much the larger issue at hand. Gaming isn’t any different that any other male dominated field when it comes to issues with sexism. Sports has had and still has the same problem when women want to get involved. The same arguments are made, that women are not dawn to competitive activities and don’t want to play competitive sports/games. That part of the discussion is a huge bummer, that a lot of people are reciting the same arguments used by sexist people of the past who wanted to keep women out of a specific hobby or field. Some of the arguments date all the way back to women’s suffrage and its saddening to see them regurgitated over our hobby. The gaming community likes to think its “inclusive”, but then creates such friction when women start to talk about things that would make gaming more inviting to them. But it’s a time thing. Over time it will fade and we will get awesome games with awesome female characters. Personally I am happy, because I am bored with the loner male protagonist with a dark past and quipy sense of humor. I need more Korra in my games, less that guy from Shadow’s of Mordor. Except Nathan Drake, they can keep making games about him forever.
I have a huge soft spot for Jade from Beyond Good and Evil.
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On March 10 2015 23:20 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 22:50 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 22:23 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: I guess the real deal is, this is not a problem with gaming, but with sexism in general society. And online gaming, with all the social loopholes it has (anonymity and distance mainly, not having to answer for what you say makes for some pretty easy rude trashtalk opportunities) is really not the ground to settle this debate. This is pretty much the larger issue at hand. Gaming isn’t any different that any other male dominated field when it comes to issues with sexism. Sports has had and still has the same problem when women want to get involved. The same arguments are made, that women are not dawn to competitive activities and don’t want to play competitive sports/games. That part of the discussion is a huge bummer, that a lot of people are reciting the same arguments used by sexist people of the past who wanted to keep women out of a specific hobby or field. Some of the arguments date all the way back to women’s suffrage and its saddening to see them regurgitated over our hobby. The gaming community likes to think its “inclusive”, but then creates such friction when women start to talk about things that would make gaming more inviting to them. But it’s a time thing. Over time it will fade and we will get awesome games with awesome female characters. Personally I am happy, because I am bored with the loner male protagonist with a dark past and quipy sense of humor. I need more Korra in my games, less that guy from Shadow’s of Mordor. Except Nathan Drake, they can keep making games about him forever. I have a huge soft spot for Jade from Beyond Good and Evil.
She is super awesome. The Tomb Raider is ok as well. Saber from Fate/Zero/Stay needs her own character action game.
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
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There are TONS of female characters in gaming that don't just follow the archetype of bimbo prop.
And there's no way ever that Shadows of Mordor made with a female lead character wouldn't be oversexualized to the ends of the earth.
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On March 11 2015 00:03 Fleetfeet wrote:
There are TONS of female characters in gaming that don't just follow the archetype of bimbo prop.
And there's no way ever that Shadows of Mordor made with a female lead character wouldn't be oversexualized to the ends of the earth.
There is like literally a character in the game that is a woman and isn't over sexualized. Shes not super interesting, but neither in the main character. That game's story and characters are the least interesting part of the. The Orcs are more interesting than the main character in a lot of ways.
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Poor Samus. Original badass now brought low with those stupid heels.
Okay this is kinda cheating but Edwin from Baldur's Gate was way better as Edwina after he puts on the cursed belt of gender change!
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Out of armor Samus is worst Samus. They need to go back to basics with her and bring me bad ass bounty hunting Samus that takes no shit or orders from anyone. None of this being commanded, she goes where she pleases and hunts who she wants.
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Of course it doesnt matter male or female the point i think is the idea that girls are in the minority when it comes to presence in the scene. at uni . . a long time ago we were always told the ratio of guys to girl gamers is 50% . . .which is a population statistic BUT you can clearly see or use a fixed point, People streaming games for example are majority male. You could take another point, out of all of the people i know who has gf's who seems more nothered about buying video games, again its males (in my experience only for that one). When im in a game shop . .head count . . woah 90sih% males out of 11 in the shop 1 person looked like the mother of the boy tho . .so. . . . . the idea of girl gamers becomes toxic for absolutley no reason for 'reasons' the people seem to think there is one. Its starnge, but the idea seems to be less of an issue when ur above 30 . . . . . .just sayin
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Is there such a thing as a fetish for protecting victimized women? I don't mean actually stepping in and helping somebody, but making elaborate fantasies, where the object of your desire is made into a perfect victim, and you her protector. Ironically it fits the damsel in distress trope, which is now being reframed to be itself a victimizer of women. I ask this question because it's a tendency I've noted sometimes in my own thoughts. And I wonder, if it exists, if it isn't partly behind the tireless energy of the "you don't understand how hard it is to be a woman" crowd.
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
Possibly, I call it a 'reverse Oedipus complex', rather than wanting to subconsciously be with your own mother, you want to act as somebody else's father.
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On March 10 2015 22:51 Racket wrote:
Attacking people regardless of their race, sex or any specific characteristic is equally BAD/WRONG.
Trolling is the tool used by people to trigger reactions on others or to vent their frustrations. I wonder where are the parents of such children, and how they think.
How a person is affected when they experience such situations is strictly personal.
In the same way, how people express themselves towards others is also strictly personal, but as one interacts with other people, none is inside someone else's head so it is bound to different interpretations. Putting ourselves in someone else's shoes before doing anything is a rarely used practice.
Verbal sexual harassment is as bad as racist harassment or any other kind of harassment, but people tend to weight them differently because of history and personal experiences and ideas and feelings.
No one will ever win an argument over which one is currently worse, as opposed to which one was worse in some specific point of time.
There are fat guys who are not affected when they are called fat guy, there are girls who are offended by girls using their gender to get advantages because that undermines what they fight for. There are black guys who don't give a f*ck when called ni**er because they know how little is the mind of the perpetrator.
And of course the opposite, that is why all this is personal.
I always hear people express themselves like, if women suffered sexism for thousands of years then it is not enough if today sexism doesn't exist anymore (of course it exists) to make it even. The world must turn feminist for a long time and THEN we are even.
If current society should pay the price for the errors and crimes committed by people that are not around anymore. Then, for instance, Europa has a big debt with America for all the killing and pillaging. And there are a lot of cases like that one.
This matter has a long history already and it will have some more pages if not books. There is no need to go active, but it helps, to solve the matter (you are free to do it), as long as you educate the ones around you, it should eventually solve.
Of course it would be really beautiful if the solution came tomorrow, but it won't happen even if everyone went active, why? because cultures are different, they do not think alike and for that to happen we must wait a long time.
Don't forget that there are still humans living like two thousands years before.
Note: Funny facts:
- I have a friend living in the USA, she has kids and told me that at school they learned that mexicans are narcoterrorists and the geopolitical map they showed her kids included part of Mexico as US territory. That is some teaching!
- The current Pope before he was Pope he was against same gender marriage in Argentine. And after he went Pope he switched sides and now he agrees with it.
So as you can see education has a long way to go, due to society, culture, religion and personal opinions.
I call bullshit on this.
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I just read the whole first page of this thread and the entire discussion seemed pretty complete there
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On March 10 2015 22:51 Racket wrote:
Attacking people regardless of their race, sex or any specific characteristic is equally BAD/WRONG.
Trolling is the tool used by people to trigger reactions on others or to vent their frustrations. I wonder where are the parents of such children, and how they think.
How a person is affected when they experience such situations is strictly personal.
In the same way, how people express themselves towards others is also strictly personal, but as one interacts with other people, none is inside someone else's head so it is bound to different interpretations. Putting ourselves in someone else's shoes before doing anything is a rarely used practice.
Verbal sexual harassment is as bad as racist harassment or any other kind of harassment, but people tend to weight them differently because of history and personal experiences and ideas and feelings.
No one will ever win an argument over which one is currently worse, as opposed to which one was worse in some specific point of time.
There are fat guys who are not affected when they are called fat guy, there are girls who are offended by girls using their gender to get advantages because that undermines what they fight for. There are black guys who don't give a f*ck when called ni**er because they know how little is the mind of the perpetrator.
And of course the opposite, that is why all this is personal.
I always hear people express themselves like, if women suffered sexism for thousands of years then it is not enough if today sexism doesn't exist anymore (of course it exists) to make it even. The world must turn feminist for a long time and THEN we are even.
If current society should pay the price for the errors and crimes committed by people that are not around anymore. Then, for instance, Europa has a big debt with America for all the killing and pillaging. And there are a lot of cases like that one.
This matter has a long history already and it will have some more pages if not books. There is no need to go active, but it helps, to solve the matter (you are free to do it), as long as you educate the ones around you, it should eventually solve.
Of course it would be really beautiful if the solution came tomorrow, but it won't happen even if everyone went active, why? because cultures are different, they do not think alike and for that to happen we must wait a long time.
Don't forget that there are still humans living like two thousands years before.
Note: Funny facts:
- I have a friend living in the USA, she has kids and told me that at school they learned that mexicans are narcoterrorists and the geopolitical map they showed her kids included part of Mexico as US territory. That is some teaching!
- The current Pope before he was Pope he was against same gender marriage in Argentine. And after he went Pope he switched sides and now he agrees with it.
So as you can see education has a long way to go, due to society, culture, religion and personal opinions.
Your friend is a liar. :/
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On March 11 2015 03:35 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 22:51 Racket wrote:
Attacking people regardless of their race, sex or any specific characteristic is equally BAD/WRONG.
Trolling is the tool used by people to trigger reactions on others or to vent their frustrations. I wonder where are the parents of such children, and how they think.
How a person is affected when they experience such situations is strictly personal.
In the same way, how people express themselves towards others is also strictly personal, but as one interacts with other people, none is inside someone else's head so it is bound to different interpretations. Putting ourselves in someone else's shoes before doing anything is a rarely used practice.
Verbal sexual harassment is as bad as racist harassment or any other kind of harassment, but people tend to weight them differently because of history and personal experiences and ideas and feelings.
No one will ever win an argument over which one is currently worse, as opposed to which one was worse in some specific point of time.
There are fat guys who are not affected when they are called fat guy, there are girls who are offended by girls using their gender to get advantages because that undermines what they fight for. There are black guys who don't give a f*ck when called ni**er because they know how little is the mind of the perpetrator.
And of course the opposite, that is why all this is personal.
I always hear people express themselves like, if women suffered sexism for thousands of years then it is not enough if today sexism doesn't exist anymore (of course it exists) to make it even. The world must turn feminist for a long time and THEN we are even.
If current society should pay the price for the errors and crimes committed by people that are not around anymore. Then, for instance, Europa has a big debt with America for all the killing and pillaging. And there are a lot of cases like that one.
This matter has a long history already and it will have some more pages if not books. There is no need to go active, but it helps, to solve the matter (you are free to do it), as long as you educate the ones around you, it should eventually solve.
Of course it would be really beautiful if the solution came tomorrow, but it won't happen even if everyone went active, why? because cultures are different, they do not think alike and for that to happen we must wait a long time.
Don't forget that there are still humans living like two thousands years before.
Note: Funny facts:
- I have a friend living in the USA, she has kids and told me that at school they learned that mexicans are narcoterrorists and the geopolitical map they showed her kids included part of Mexico as US territory. That is some teaching!
- The current Pope before he was Pope he was against same gender marriage in Argentine. And after he went Pope he switched sides and now he agrees with it.
So as you can see education has a long way to go, due to society, culture, religion and personal opinions. I call bullshit on this.
I think it's safe to assume that most readers agree with you 
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On March 11 2015 03:27 Glowsphere wrote:
Is there such a thing as a fetish for protecting victimized women? I don't mean actually stepping in and helping somebody, but making elaborate fantasies, where the object of your desire is made into a perfect victim, and you her protector. Ironically it fits the damsel in distress trope, which is now being reframed to be itself a victimizer of women. I ask this question because it's a tendency I've noted sometimes in my own thoughts. And I wonder, if it exists, if it isn't partly behind the tireless energy of the "you don't understand how hard it is to be a woman" crowd.
I don't think it's necessarily women who men want to protect, the same idea can be (and has been) done with a brother (especially a younger brother), a close friend or confidant, a mentor figure, ect. In fact, since we were talking about it earlier, Shadows of Mordor has a pretty good example in Ratbag. Your character always seems to be running around rescuing him.
I'm not really sure why female damsels are so much more prominent. The only reason I can really think of is that it's more relatable to your average male. Pretty much every guy I know has at least one if not multiple female's in their lives they would go to great lengths to protect. I think if you did a survey of 'would you take a bullet for a random stranger', I'm pretty sure more men would be likely to say yes if that stranger was implied to be female.
It might also simply be because we have so many more male protagonists. In a game where you have a main male and female lead but actually control the male lead, when you want an emotional impact it's by far easiest to use one of the leading characters. And since you're controlling the male...
Either way, I'd like to see this played around with, but I don't think it's such a bad trope as everyone makes it out to be. I think I'll always enjoy this trope when it's done well. Most of my favorite movies or games involve rescuing someone else, usually female.
As for a 'fetish', I don't know, but I'm sure there is some kind of mental desire in most men. I used to use this fantasy in my own head when bored at school. "That girl over there holds some secret data and is about to be attacked by 20 ninja. Here's where the first attack happens, and here's how I act to save her". It never actually had any sexual connotations though, oftentimes I was just randomly picking some classmate. I think it's just an ingrained part of me (and perhaps most males?), wanting to protect others. Did this with male classmates on occassion too, but usually female. Wasn't because I thought the girl was incompetent or anything.
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EPT
