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On March 11 2015 06:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. All the women I personally know have no issue with me doing this and are happy to have someone stand up for their rights with them. They have never seems concerned with the venue that I do it on. I don't really think I am qualified explain feminism to other women, so really a male dominated forum is the best place for me to discussed the matter. Also, the topic of this thread is a NYT article saying women are being harassed and abused by men in gaming. The topic has a lot to do with this forum. Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:08 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 04:50 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 04:45 Shiragaku wrote:On March 11 2015 03:27 Glowsphere wrote:
Is there such a thing as a fetish for protecting victimized women? I don't mean actually stepping in and helping somebody, but making elaborate fantasies, where the object of your desire is made into a perfect victim, and you her protector. Ironically it fits the damsel in distress trope, which is now being reframed to be itself a victimizer of women. I ask this question because it's a tendency I've noted sometimes in my own thoughts. And I wonder, if it exists, if it isn't partly behind the tireless energy of the "you don't understand how hard it is to be a woman" crowd. lol no, but I have heard white knight, Sharia Law, and Tumblr SJW all said in the same sentence which leads me to wonder if people get hot and sweaty thinking about other oppressed women that is not of the same culture as them. Maybe it has something to do with guilt of being called out by your own women. But in all seriousness, when has the attempt to be a good human being turned into weird pseudo-Freudian speculations like that? The idea that every single person standing up for women is just doing so to sleep with them is just silly. It also feeds into that idea that women are not people, but obstacles to be overcome on the way to sleeping with them. By sticking up for them, you will trick them into liking you. Its so fucking stupid. When people act like this I always wonder what sort of thoughts and cognitive rewiring must go on if they ever father a daughter. That or how they reconcile it with having a sister or cousin. I have no idea, but it must be a struggle. I just get tired of the idea that the sole purpose of any interaction with a woman, even sticking up for women rights, is some veiled attempt to sleep with them.
Yeah... and like 45-65% or so of men are not single. The first random stats on it I pulled up even suggest that there are more single women than men in a lot of places. In either case it seems like it's often equal or better odds that the man you are talking to is not trying to sleep with anyone except the person they are already sleeping with.
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On March 11 2015 06:16 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:09 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. All the women I personally know have no issue with me doing this and are happy to have someone stand up for their rights with them. They have never seems concerned with the venue that I do it on. I don't really think I am qualified explain feminism to other women, so really a male dominated forum is the best place for me to discussed the matter. Also, the topic of this thread is a NYT article saying women are being harassed and abused by men in gaming. The topic has a lot to do with this forum. On March 11 2015 06:08 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 04:50 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 04:45 Shiragaku wrote:On March 11 2015 03:27 Glowsphere wrote:
Is there such a thing as a fetish for protecting victimized women? I don't mean actually stepping in and helping somebody, but making elaborate fantasies, where the object of your desire is made into a perfect victim, and you her protector. Ironically it fits the damsel in distress trope, which is now being reframed to be itself a victimizer of women. I ask this question because it's a tendency I've noted sometimes in my own thoughts. And I wonder, if it exists, if it isn't partly behind the tireless energy of the "you don't understand how hard it is to be a woman" crowd. lol no, but I have heard white knight, Sharia Law, and Tumblr SJW all said in the same sentence which leads me to wonder if people get hot and sweaty thinking about other oppressed women that is not of the same culture as them. Maybe it has something to do with guilt of being called out by your own women. But in all seriousness, when has the attempt to be a good human being turned into weird pseudo-Freudian speculations like that? The idea that every single person standing up for women is just doing so to sleep with them is just silly. It also feeds into that idea that women are not people, but obstacles to be overcome on the way to sleeping with them. By sticking up for them, you will trick them into liking you. Its so fucking stupid. When people act like this I always wonder what sort of thoughts and cognitive rewiring must go on if they ever father a daughter. That or how they reconcile it with having a sister or cousin. I have no idea, but it must be a struggle. I just get tired of the idea that the sole purpose of any interaction with a woman, even sticking up for women rights, is some veiled attempt to sleep with them. Yeah... and like 65% or so of men are not single. The first random stats on it I pulled up even suggest that there are more single women than men. In either case it seems like it's better odds that the man you are talking to is not trying to sleep with anyone except the person they are already sleeping with.
Are the stats working out same sex relationships? There's more women in the world than men so of course there's going to be more single women. And assuming the difference in percentage is higher than the difference between the male and female population does that suggest that women are two timing men more often? All of that just seems sketchy to me.
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On March 11 2015 06:23 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:16 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:09 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. All the women I personally know have no issue with me doing this and are happy to have someone stand up for their rights with them. They have never seems concerned with the venue that I do it on. I don't really think I am qualified explain feminism to other women, so really a male dominated forum is the best place for me to discussed the matter. Also, the topic of this thread is a NYT article saying women are being harassed and abused by men in gaming. The topic has a lot to do with this forum. On March 11 2015 06:08 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 04:50 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 04:45 Shiragaku wrote:On March 11 2015 03:27 Glowsphere wrote:
Is there such a thing as a fetish for protecting victimized women? I don't mean actually stepping in and helping somebody, but making elaborate fantasies, where the object of your desire is made into a perfect victim, and you her protector. Ironically it fits the damsel in distress trope, which is now being reframed to be itself a victimizer of women. I ask this question because it's a tendency I've noted sometimes in my own thoughts. And I wonder, if it exists, if it isn't partly behind the tireless energy of the "you don't understand how hard it is to be a woman" crowd. lol no, but I have heard white knight, Sharia Law, and Tumblr SJW all said in the same sentence which leads me to wonder if people get hot and sweaty thinking about other oppressed women that is not of the same culture as them. Maybe it has something to do with guilt of being called out by your own women. But in all seriousness, when has the attempt to be a good human being turned into weird pseudo-Freudian speculations like that? The idea that every single person standing up for women is just doing so to sleep with them is just silly. It also feeds into that idea that women are not people, but obstacles to be overcome on the way to sleeping with them. By sticking up for them, you will trick them into liking you. Its so fucking stupid. When people act like this I always wonder what sort of thoughts and cognitive rewiring must go on if they ever father a daughter. That or how they reconcile it with having a sister or cousin. I have no idea, but it must be a struggle. I just get tired of the idea that the sole purpose of any interaction with a woman, even sticking up for women rights, is some veiled attempt to sleep with them. Yeah... and like 65% or so of men are not single. The first random stats on it I pulled up even suggest that there are more single women than men. In either case it seems like it's better odds that the man you are talking to is not trying to sleep with anyone except the person they are already sleeping with. Are the stats working out same sex relationships? There's more women in the world than men so of course there's going to be more single women. And assuming the difference in percentage is higher than the difference between the male and female population does that suggest that women are two timing men more often? All of that just seems sketchy to me.
The stats were per 100 unmarried women with no mention of orientation but that's really not even remotely close to the relevant part of what I had just said.
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On March 11 2015 06:25 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:23 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:16 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:09 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. All the women I personally know have no issue with me doing this and are happy to have someone stand up for their rights with them. They have never seems concerned with the venue that I do it on. I don't really think I am qualified explain feminism to other women, so really a male dominated forum is the best place for me to discussed the matter. Also, the topic of this thread is a NYT article saying women are being harassed and abused by men in gaming. The topic has a lot to do with this forum. On March 11 2015 06:08 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 04:50 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 04:45 Shiragaku wrote:On March 11 2015 03:27 Glowsphere wrote:
Is there such a thing as a fetish for protecting victimized women? I don't mean actually stepping in and helping somebody, but making elaborate fantasies, where the object of your desire is made into a perfect victim, and you her protector. Ironically it fits the damsel in distress trope, which is now being reframed to be itself a victimizer of women. I ask this question because it's a tendency I've noted sometimes in my own thoughts. And I wonder, if it exists, if it isn't partly behind the tireless energy of the "you don't understand how hard it is to be a woman" crowd. lol no, but I have heard white knight, Sharia Law, and Tumblr SJW all said in the same sentence which leads me to wonder if people get hot and sweaty thinking about other oppressed women that is not of the same culture as them. Maybe it has something to do with guilt of being called out by your own women. But in all seriousness, when has the attempt to be a good human being turned into weird pseudo-Freudian speculations like that? The idea that every single person standing up for women is just doing so to sleep with them is just silly. It also feeds into that idea that women are not people, but obstacles to be overcome on the way to sleeping with them. By sticking up for them, you will trick them into liking you. Its so fucking stupid. When people act like this I always wonder what sort of thoughts and cognitive rewiring must go on if they ever father a daughter. That or how they reconcile it with having a sister or cousin. I have no idea, but it must be a struggle. I just get tired of the idea that the sole purpose of any interaction with a woman, even sticking up for women rights, is some veiled attempt to sleep with them. Yeah... and like 65% or so of men are not single. The first random stats on it I pulled up even suggest that there are more single women than men. In either case it seems like it's better odds that the man you are talking to is not trying to sleep with anyone except the person they are already sleeping with. Are the stats working out same sex relationships? There's more women in the world than men so of course there's going to be more single women. And assuming the difference in percentage is higher than the difference between the male and female population does that suggest that women are two timing men more often? All of that just seems sketchy to me. The stats were per 100 unmarried women with no mention of orientation but that's really not even remotely close to the relevant part of what I had just said.
So you're referencing stats with a incredibly low sample size?
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On March 11 2015 06:27 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:25 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:23 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:16 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:09 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. All the women I personally know have no issue with me doing this and are happy to have someone stand up for their rights with them. They have never seems concerned with the venue that I do it on. I don't really think I am qualified explain feminism to other women, so really a male dominated forum is the best place for me to discussed the matter. Also, the topic of this thread is a NYT article saying women are being harassed and abused by men in gaming. The topic has a lot to do with this forum. On March 11 2015 06:08 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 04:50 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 04:45 Shiragaku wrote:On March 11 2015 03:27 Glowsphere wrote:
Is there such a thing as a fetish for protecting victimized women? I don't mean actually stepping in and helping somebody, but making elaborate fantasies, where the object of your desire is made into a perfect victim, and you her protector. Ironically it fits the damsel in distress trope, which is now being reframed to be itself a victimizer of women. I ask this question because it's a tendency I've noted sometimes in my own thoughts. And I wonder, if it exists, if it isn't partly behind the tireless energy of the "you don't understand how hard it is to be a woman" crowd. lol no, but I have heard white knight, Sharia Law, and Tumblr SJW all said in the same sentence which leads me to wonder if people get hot and sweaty thinking about other oppressed women that is not of the same culture as them. Maybe it has something to do with guilt of being called out by your own women. But in all seriousness, when has the attempt to be a good human being turned into weird pseudo-Freudian speculations like that? The idea that every single person standing up for women is just doing so to sleep with them is just silly. It also feeds into that idea that women are not people, but obstacles to be overcome on the way to sleeping with them. By sticking up for them, you will trick them into liking you. Its so fucking stupid. When people act like this I always wonder what sort of thoughts and cognitive rewiring must go on if they ever father a daughter. That or how they reconcile it with having a sister or cousin. I have no idea, but it must be a struggle. I just get tired of the idea that the sole purpose of any interaction with a woman, even sticking up for women rights, is some veiled attempt to sleep with them. Yeah... and like 65% or so of men are not single. The first random stats on it I pulled up even suggest that there are more single women than men. In either case it seems like it's better odds that the man you are talking to is not trying to sleep with anyone except the person they are already sleeping with. Are the stats working out same sex relationships? There's more women in the world than men so of course there's going to be more single women. And assuming the difference in percentage is higher than the difference between the male and female population does that suggest that women are two timing men more often? All of that just seems sketchy to me. The stats were per 100 unmarried women with no mention of orientation but that's really not even remotely close to the relevant part of what I had just said. So you're referencing stats with a incredibly low sample size?
per 100 is not the same as asking 100...
x unmarried men per 100 unmarried women is a ratio.
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On March 11 2015 06:28 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:27 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:25 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:23 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:16 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:09 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. All the women I personally know have no issue with me doing this and are happy to have someone stand up for their rights with them. They have never seems concerned with the venue that I do it on. I don't really think I am qualified explain feminism to other women, so really a male dominated forum is the best place for me to discussed the matter. Also, the topic of this thread is a NYT article saying women are being harassed and abused by men in gaming. The topic has a lot to do with this forum. On March 11 2015 06:08 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 04:50 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 04:45 Shiragaku wrote:On March 11 2015 03:27 Glowsphere wrote:
Is there such a thing as a fetish for protecting victimized women? I don't mean actually stepping in and helping somebody, but making elaborate fantasies, where the object of your desire is made into a perfect victim, and you her protector. Ironically it fits the damsel in distress trope, which is now being reframed to be itself a victimizer of women. I ask this question because it's a tendency I've noted sometimes in my own thoughts. And I wonder, if it exists, if it isn't partly behind the tireless energy of the "you don't understand how hard it is to be a woman" crowd. lol no, but I have heard white knight, Sharia Law, and Tumblr SJW all said in the same sentence which leads me to wonder if people get hot and sweaty thinking about other oppressed women that is not of the same culture as them. Maybe it has something to do with guilt of being called out by your own women. But in all seriousness, when has the attempt to be a good human being turned into weird pseudo-Freudian speculations like that? The idea that every single person standing up for women is just doing so to sleep with them is just silly. It also feeds into that idea that women are not people, but obstacles to be overcome on the way to sleeping with them. By sticking up for them, you will trick them into liking you. Its so fucking stupid. When people act like this I always wonder what sort of thoughts and cognitive rewiring must go on if they ever father a daughter. That or how they reconcile it with having a sister or cousin. I have no idea, but it must be a struggle. I just get tired of the idea that the sole purpose of any interaction with a woman, even sticking up for women rights, is some veiled attempt to sleep with them. Yeah... and like 65% or so of men are not single. The first random stats on it I pulled up even suggest that there are more single women than men. In either case it seems like it's better odds that the man you are talking to is not trying to sleep with anyone except the person they are already sleeping with. Are the stats working out same sex relationships? There's more women in the world than men so of course there's going to be more single women. And assuming the difference in percentage is higher than the difference between the male and female population does that suggest that women are two timing men more often? All of that just seems sketchy to me. The stats were per 100 unmarried women with no mention of orientation but that's really not even remotely close to the relevant part of what I had just said. So you're referencing stats with a incredibly low sample size? per 100 is not the same as asking 100... 88 unmarried men per 100 unmarried women is a ratio.
Just link the data, he is going to keep peppering you with questions until you do.
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On March 11 2015 06:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:28 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:27 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:25 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:23 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:16 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:09 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. All the women I personally know have no issue with me doing this and are happy to have someone stand up for their rights with them. They have never seems concerned with the venue that I do it on. I don't really think I am qualified explain feminism to other women, so really a male dominated forum is the best place for me to discussed the matter. Also, the topic of this thread is a NYT article saying women are being harassed and abused by men in gaming. The topic has a lot to do with this forum. On March 11 2015 06:08 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 04:50 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 04:45 Shiragaku wrote:
[quote]
lol no, but I have heard white knight, Sharia Law, and Tumblr SJW all said in the same sentence which leads me to wonder if people get hot and sweaty thinking about other oppressed women that is not of the same culture as them. Maybe it has something to do with guilt of being called out by your own women.
But in all seriousness, when has the attempt to be a good human being turned into weird pseudo-Freudian speculations like that? The idea that every single person standing up for women is just doing so to sleep with them is just silly. It also feeds into that idea that women are not people, but obstacles to be overcome on the way to sleeping with them. By sticking up for them, you will trick them into liking you. Its so fucking stupid. When people act like this I always wonder what sort of thoughts and cognitive rewiring must go on if they ever father a daughter. That or how they reconcile it with having a sister or cousin. I have no idea, but it must be a struggle. I just get tired of the idea that the sole purpose of any interaction with a woman, even sticking up for women rights, is some veiled attempt to sleep with them. Yeah... and like 65% or so of men are not single. The first random stats on it I pulled up even suggest that there are more single women than men. In either case it seems like it's better odds that the man you are talking to is not trying to sleep with anyone except the person they are already sleeping with. Are the stats working out same sex relationships? There's more women in the world than men so of course there's going to be more single women. And assuming the difference in percentage is higher than the difference between the male and female population does that suggest that women are two timing men more often? All of that just seems sketchy to me. The stats were per 100 unmarried women with no mention of orientation but that's really not even remotely close to the relevant part of what I had just said. So you're referencing stats with a incredibly low sample size? per 100 is not the same as asking 100... 88 unmarried men per 100 unmarried women is a ratio. Just link the data, he is going to keep peppering you with questions until you do.
Pretty sure it's bullshit data, considering none of the stats listed make any sense from either census records or a scientific social study.
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Canada11497 Posts
On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that.
What happened to this?
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Northern Ireland26670 Posts
[Drunk post] Without being a bitch about it I'm fucking fed up about whining about these things when by virtue of my gender when I split with his mother, by default the system gave the vast majority of care and time to her and if I want to redress that I have to pump a ton of money into lawyer's fees and the likes. Forgive me for wanting to actually see a nuanced/non-sensationalist article about women and gaming when shit like that happens to me in real life. I have literal proof of my baby momma having to attend counselling and self-harm clinics for 3 years but because she's a woman she is immediately a better primary carer than I am.
Boo hoo people are mean to you in a game. I got an insane amount of abuse in my console/CoD days on Xbox. In Black Ops I was top 50 in the world by their metrics, I would get abuse in games, I would get abuse from people Id never played with because of my position in the leaderboards, essentially non-stop.
You're not being abused because you're a woman, or because you're not Caucasian. In the vast majority of cases anyway, you're getting abused because you're better than someone and their fragile ego can't handle it. That your gender is brought into it is the mechanism of abuse, rather than the motivator (in most cases, there are genuinely mosogynistic assholes out there) of course.
Frankly I believe it to be something linked more to anonymity and a lack of blowback than anything else. I think at some point in the near future people will have to be made more personally accountable for their conduct online, the anonymity that can be used positively will be gradually phased out because a combination of immature people and bitter assholes can't stop abusing people.
I'm not for pitchforking but some people need to see consequences attached to their horrible behaviour, simple as. It's not an anti-woman thing, or a racism thing for me, people just need to stop being cunts on the Internet, be it voluntarily or in terms of censure.
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I know you said that, and you will excuse me for not quoting you verbatim, but I don't think it significantly affects the statement.
Well, by definition of the words, it does.
Rape is not legal now in the western world. Whether it was criminalized in the past is not a realistic concern for people living today, any more than the history of the African slave trade means a black person in the west today should be worried about being bought or sold. I don't buy the history of rape being relevant here either, any more than tuberculosis, which has killed 1 in 7 of all human beings, is something people lose sleep over in the developed world today.
Cultural history affects current culture. The cultural attitudes about rape in the past (including past laws) effect how our culture looks at rape today (e.g. victim blaming, sympathy for the perpetrator, etc.). If you can't see the difference between the history of a cultural subject and the history of a medical disease relative to current events then let's just drop this because I'm not going to waste my time explaining this to you.
I'm confused about this bit still. I guess I would agree "white men typically don't have to say, I'm a white male," but I think that's a linguistic trick, sex and ethnicity are visually discernible and I would be suspicious of anyone who walked up to me and told me what their sex was. It's possible people identifying like that is partly a historical artifact, like black pride from the civil rights movement.
It's not a linguistic trick and you're still not understanding the context. No one is randomly walking up to you and telling you their sex/race/whatever. When you ask someone to themselves, i.e. describe features/characteristics of themselves (their identity), white men are much, much less likely than women or minorities to mention race/sex precisely because they don't have to. Being white and male is normalized in our society to the point where we are not consciously reminded of our sex or race every day by discrimination.
I cannot begin to explain how never I said this.
My point is that as long as men and women are and can be victims of rape, I think there is no difference in how bad or hurtful or whatever it is to say "I am going to rape you" to a man than it is to say that to a woman. Men are the majority victims of homicide, right? Is it worse if an anonymous (man) online says "I'm going to kill you" to an anonymous (man) than to an anonymous (woman)? Or are women the minority perpetrators of homicide? So it's not as serious if a woman says she's going to kill you?
What would it mean if it were worse for a woman to hear "I am going to rape you" online than a man? It's not as bad as for a man, is the man is supposed to shrug it off, it's not as big a deal because of his gender? Is this position tenable?
My point is the vitriol of these statements isn't contingent on the the statistical distribution of violence in our pretty civilized society. Or what groups the speaker or listener belongs to.
According to this logic it's just as insulting for me to call a white man the N word as it is for me to call a black man the N word.
I'm going to let you reflect on how utterly ridiculous that would be. Then, if you still don't see why it's ridiculous, go out and call a random white man on the street the N word, then a random black man. After you most likely get smacked for it, hopefully you'll start to understand cultural context.
All audiences are not the same, and to think otherwise is simply childish.
The bottom part of my post wasn't referring specifically to you, just to the general argument, since it's been made several times in this thread.
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On March 11 2015 07:25 Wombat_NI wrote:
[Drunk post] Without being a bitch about it I'm fucking fed up about whining about these things when by virtue of my gender when I split with his mother, by default the system gave the vast majority of care and time to her and if I want to redress that I have to pump a ton of money into lawyer's fees and the likes. Forgive me for wanting to actually see a nuanced/non-sensationalist article about women and gaming when shit like that happens to me in real life. I have literal proof of my baby momma having to attend counselling and self-harm clinics for 3 years but because she's a woman she is immediately a better primary carer than I am.
Boo hoo people are mean to you in a game. I got an insane amount of abuse in my console/CoD days on Xbox. In Black Ops I was top 50 in the world by their metrics, I would get abuse in games, I would get abuse from people Id never played with because of my position in the leaderboards, essentially non-stop.
You're not being abused because you're a woman, or because you're not Caucasian. In the vast majority of cases anyway, you're getting abused because you're better than someone and their fragile ego can't handle it. That your gender is brought into it is the mechanism of abuse, rather than the motivator (in most cases, there are genuinely mosogynistic assholes out there) of course.
Frankly I believe it to be something linked more to anonymity and a lack of blowback than anything else. I think at some point in the near future people will have to be made more personally accountable for their conduct online, the anonymity that can be used positively will be gradually phased out because a combination of immature people and bitter assholes can't stop abusing people.
I'm not for pitchforking but some people need to see consequences attached to their horrible behaviour, simple as. It's not an anti-woman thing, or a racism thing for me, people just need to stop being cunts on the Internet, be it voluntarily or in terms of censure.
There have been a few people who have done things like, take offensive facebook posts and send them to the brats mom's and female relatives, or take offensive messages and put them on tumblr so that hundreds of people contact their workplace and let their boss know how they feel about them employing open racist/bigots/misogynist/etc...
Most people say it's violating their 'freedums' most of those people are about half a step away from arguing that bigots should be a protected class.
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On March 11 2015 06:47 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:28 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 06:28 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:27 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:25 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:23 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:16 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 06:09 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. All the women I personally know have no issue with me doing this and are happy to have someone stand up for their rights with them. They have never seems concerned with the venue that I do it on. I don't really think I am qualified explain feminism to other women, so really a male dominated forum is the best place for me to discussed the matter. Also, the topic of this thread is a NYT article saying women are being harassed and abused by men in gaming. The topic has a lot to do with this forum. On March 11 2015 06:08 Logo wrote:On March 11 2015 04:50 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
The idea that every single person standing up for women is just doing so to sleep with them is just silly. It also feeds into that idea that women are not people, but obstacles to be overcome on the way to sleeping with them. By sticking up for them, you will trick them into liking you. Its so fucking stupid. When people act like this I always wonder what sort of thoughts and cognitive rewiring must go on if they ever father a daughter. That or how they reconcile it with having a sister or cousin. I have no idea, but it must be a struggle. I just get tired of the idea that the sole purpose of any interaction with a woman, even sticking up for women rights, is some veiled attempt to sleep with them. Yeah... and like 65% or so of men are not single. The first random stats on it I pulled up even suggest that there are more single women than men. In either case it seems like it's better odds that the man you are talking to is not trying to sleep with anyone except the person they are already sleeping with. Are the stats working out same sex relationships? There's more women in the world than men so of course there's going to be more single women. And assuming the difference in percentage is higher than the difference between the male and female population does that suggest that women are two timing men more often? All of that just seems sketchy to me. The stats were per 100 unmarried women with no mention of orientation but that's really not even remotely close to the relevant part of what I had just said. So you're referencing stats with a incredibly low sample size? per 100 is not the same as asking 100... 88 unmarried men per 100 unmarried women is a ratio. Just link the data, he is going to keep peppering you with questions until you do. Pretty sure it's bullshit data, considering none of the stats listed make any sense from either census records or a scientific social study.
I didn't really list any stats which is probably why they sound bullshit to you. 45-65% is just a huge selected range that fits the data that comes back when you search for % of people married. It is a pretty huge range and even if reality is outside of that range the range for which my point still makes sense (the point that men defending women are likely in a relationship and thus probably not interested with sleeping with random women) is so huge that it seems very unlikely to be small enough to matter. You can look up married and/or relationship statistics for your area and the demographic you find appropriate (age 24-34 being a good key one).
Anyways that's also why I am not going to baby you and look up links you could easily find, your particular interest in the accuracy of a statistic that has almost no relevance to the discussion is way more self defeating than me digging up a few links.
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On March 11 2015 07:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. What happened to this?
He needed to tell us all that women would be mad at us fighting about their rights without them around. Because that's how feminism works.
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On March 11 2015 07:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 07:04 Falling wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. What happened to this? He needed to tell us all that women would be mad at us fighting about their rights without them around. Because that's how feminism works.
Respectfully, I think by now everyone knows where you stand and what you think about people who disagree with you.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2015 22:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 21:07 kwizach wrote:On March 09 2015 20:57 Dark_Chill wrote:On March 09 2015 20:37 kwizach wrote:On March 09 2015 20:26 Incognoto wrote:On March 09 2015 19:46 kwizach wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well; there are far more frequent cases of death threats, stalking, etc. against women stemming from online interaction than against men. Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem.
If you can't see the difference between insulting a man by calling him a "faggot" and insulting a gay man by calling him a "faggot" then you need to do some soul-searching. It's the same difference between calling a white man the N word vs. calling a black man the N word. One person is being insulted about something he's not, while the other is being insulted and ridiculed due to a fundamental part of his identity.
This same thing occurs with women in the gaming world. Similarly, when over 90% of rape victims are female and cultural discourse on rape is almost exclusively about women being the victims, threatening to rape someone is far more disturbing to a woman than a man, especially when human history has been almost exclusively patriarchal and rape as we understand it today was both legal and commonly encouraged throughout history.
The idea that you treat everyone 100% the same without regard for context is an incredibly childish and naive notion. There is context to everything in this world. Calling a white man the N word doesn't mean the same thing as calling a black man the N word, just as a black man saying the N word means something very different from a white man saying the N word. Calling a man a "slut" has a very different connotation than calling a woman a "slut" does.
So no, the abuse that women take in the gaming world is not the same as the abuse that men take. That is simply the excuse of a lazy, entitled, male-centered gaming culture that is afraid of change. Another good post. I feel like holding those points of views further encourages racism and sexism rather than stems them; but that's just me. Yes, that's just you being wrong. Except he's not? Making clear distinctions which highlight the differences between groups (and topics surrounding those groups) of course encourages discrimination. Discrimination of groups can't happen if those groups are too similar, because then there's nothing to latch onto. Except he is. Denouncing the discrimination faced by blacks, homosexuals, women and other groups for being black, homosexual, women etc., and making such discrimination socially unacceptable is obviously the way to go to push back and suppress such discrimination (even though it's a long process). Fighting against and denouncing racism/racist discriminations has made the U.S. considerably less racist than it was 60 years ago (although there's obviously still a long way to go), not more. "Let's pretend the problem of discrimination doesn't exist" doesn't actually fix it. On another note, I can't help but notice that although most of the usual reactionary/sexist/anti-feminism TL posters have expectedly converged on this thread, some are still absent. I wonder when L1ghtning is going to make an appearance. Its only a matter of time. This thread is 21 hours old at 14 pages. Clearly we have a lot of members who have many opinion about the harassment girls face in gaming. I am sure we will get the anti-feminist circle jerk crowd in here to talk about how women trick men with their sexyness and powers of overwhelming guilt. And I love how we have gone through the full gambit of "its not a problem", "everyone gets harassed" and "What makes girls so special" arguments in this thread. Nothing gets some guys more riled than hearing that a group of women might have struggles that are harder than their own. On March 09 2015 22:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:50 Nebuchad wrote:On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games. This should probably end thread, honestly. Its anyone has been following the whole sexism in gaming issue for the last 9 months, yeah. Its literally the same arguments regurgitated by people involved with gaming, who also happen to be guys. I've seen almost every one and every format and its dull to the point of ad nauseum. Guys who claim women are welcome in gaming, but then are totally unwilling to listen when women complain about their treatment in gaming. On March 09 2015 23:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:59 SixStrings wrote:On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games. You're completely missing the point. No one is saying rudeness doesn't exist, no one is saying we shouldn't aim for a more inclusive and positive community and no one is saying that girls have an easy time. We're just saying that the unpleasantness isn't owed to the fact that gamers are sexist, but that many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity. Many of us are just wary of the blatant lies and bias exhibited by people who make a career of bringing gender issues into matters. 'A situation sucks' 80 views 'A situation sucks because girls are victims' 80.000 views. Fuck that. And could you tell me more about people who "make a career of bringing gender issues into matters"? I get the feeling you want to blame this all on one person and I can't quite figure out who it is. On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite. On March 10 2015 05:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 05:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:On March 10 2015 05:08 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 05:04 oBlade wrote:On March 10 2015 04:49 Plansix wrote:
So wait, news companies shouldn't report on things that people want to read? Their goal isn't to make money? And people who make documentaries shouldn't' make money? Is this where the whole "professional victim money grab" argument comes in? Because that one is my favorite. You have recognized that their goal is to make money, so let me ask, do you think that tabloid news should be taken at face value as 100% true? Is the NYT a tabloid news paper? How about NPR, the BBC, ABC, CBS and almost every tech site that matters? None of these are tabloid news and they are all reporting the same thing, that sexism in games(and tech as a whole) is an issue due to it being a male dominated field/hobby. So what was your argument again? Mainstream news and media and their utter lack of research on video games, people playing them, or any general topic of "young person trends" is a whole discussion topic on its own. Or its all some grand SJW Illuminati plot to get girls/minorities into games. On March 10 2015 05:28 Plansix wrote:
I love how "clickbait garbage" is pretty much code for "anything I don't agree with". Especially when some of the coverage by major news outlets isn't even internet based, like National Public Radio and the BBC. On March 10 2015 06:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing. Clearly listening to the people who are being harassed is the worst way to get information. The best way is to collect empirical data from afar and make a rational, not emotionally driven decision. because social interactions are a science experiment.... On March 10 2015 06:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:10 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:05 awesomoecalypse wrote:On March 10 2015 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 06:00 awesomoecalypse wrote:
ITT: a bunch of dudes insisting that any problem which doesn't affect them personally doesn't exist, that nobody can possibly have it worse off than them, and that any article they disagree with is intellectually dishonest clickbait by virtue of focusing on problems that don't personally impact them.
Honestly I get it, in that I used to be similarly oblivious because, well, I'm a dude. I have never in my life played a multiplayer game without encountering a certain percentage of trolling assholes, and so I assumed women complaining about sexism in gaming were just misinterpreting that minority of douchebags as being both representative of gamers as a whole, and seeing their behavior as specific to them rather than a universal thing...
Until that is I actually started dating and meeting more gamer women, literally every one of whom had a plethora of stories of total fucking creeps crossing lines that I as a dude have never had to deal with. My wife and I play a lot of games together, which makes it pretty easy to compare and contrast how we both get treated when playing the game...and yes, she has to deal with way more shit than I do, and a lot of it strikes a decidedly creepier tone than the standard trolling douchebags that guy gamers have to deal with.
A similar phenomenon happens with my black friends who game. A lot of them outright refuse to use voice chat because when they do, there's a decent chance some asshole is going to hear their voice and immediately start spouting loads of racial bullshit targetted specifically at them. That's not to say that I as a white dude never hear racial slurs, but it isn't with the same frequency, nor does it have nearly the same impact. Just because you actually met women gamer doesn't make you less bias. The opposite actually. Yes, because clearly the path to an unbiased perspective is to never actually associate with any of the people whose arguments you're dismissing. The path to unbiased perspective is statistical analysis, and not hitting on gamer women and acknowledging everything they say just to get in their pants. Except every piece of statistical analysis that has ever been done on the topic suggests overwhelmingly that women are severely underrepresented in gaming, more likely to hide their gender while playing, more likely to face harassment, and more likely to quit gaming alltogether...whereupon guys like you immediately dismiss the article reporting on said analysis as "divisive clickbait" so you can go back to patting yourself on the back Wouldn't want to be clouded by emotions by speaking to people directly, which would damage the thought process of the superior rational mind. I am just waiting to hear that journalism is part of the humanities in education and a flawed discipline. On March 10 2015 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 06:38 wei2coolman wrote:On March 10 2015 06:29 awesomoecalypse wrote:For analysis on rates of online harassment by gender, here's a few studies: http://www.vg247.com/2012/09/08/study-80-of-gamers-believe-sexism-is-rampant-in-the-gaming-community/Matthew’s study found that women were harassed four times more than men, and 63% of women reported being called a “c*nt, bitch, slut, and whore.” Others reported they were threatened with sexual assault, or asked for sexual favors, and stereotypical comments regarding female gender roles were prevalent as well. We’re assuming these comments include, but were not limited to: ‘go make me a sandwich’ or ‘get back in the kitchen and make me some pie.’
Many insults hurled at the women, according to the survey participants, also included derogatory comments regarding their weight or general physical appearance.
“Women were also much more likely to quit playing a game because of sex-based harassment than were men,” says the report. “35.8% of women reported having quit playing temporarily because of sexism, and 9.6% reported that they quit playing a certain game permanently because of harassment.
“The numbers for men in the same areas were 11.7% and 2.6% respectively – about a third of the percentage for women in each case.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/28/yes-men-can-be-victims-of-online-harassment-but-in-reality-women-have-it-much-worse/A new Pew Research study found that 40 percent of all Internet users have experienced some harassment online, and 73 percent have witnessed others being harassed. But even though online harassment has become a ubiquitous experience, the way it is experienced differs radically between men and women. The Pew study determined that women are more likely to be victims of its more severe forms, including stalking and sexual harassment, while men are more likely to experience less severe forms, such as name-calling. "sex based harassment", how about harassment in general? the only reason women get sex based harassment is because they respond to it, fueling the fire. Sex based harassment don't work on guys, so usually the target shifts towards their mothers, and shit. So basically its women's fault they get sexually harassed because they respond to it? You are like one step away from saying "She was asking for it." On March 10 2015 10:44 Plansix wrote:
As do discrimation is only caused by people asking for it. What a novel point of view that I have never heard before ever. Of course the the only people complaining abou sexism and racism are really just dirty scam artists trying to trick people put of their money. Of course that's the case.
Give me a break. On March 10 2015 10:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:47 Millitron wrote:On March 10 2015 10:28 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. All evidence says that's not true. The harassers want their targets to suffer in silence. They don't want their target to speak out against them. There is no evidence that reporting on harassment makes it go away faster. On March 10 2015 10:27 kwizach wrote:On March 10 2015 10:22 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:03 Plansix wrote:
The new only way a woman becomes an "e celebrity" through sexism is if sexist assholes make one through harassment. If they attack her based on her statments about sexism in gaming or any other industriesor hobbies, they are only proving her point. The idea that it's anyone's fault but the harassers is just nonsense. If they didn't harass, people wouldnt pay attention.
But they can't help themselves. On other hand, if people would not pay attention to harass, then it would probably diminish naturally, and even if it did not, nobody pays attention to it anyways. Yes, the strategy of pretending discrimination doesn't exist has a history of working extremely well to make discrimination disappear. Simply brilliant. Clearly ignoring the problem and never talking about it will make it go away. You ever been trolled in a thread on a forum? 4chan is the best example, but any forum will do. Did responding to the troll in any way help? I've seen many a troll thread on 4chan, and the ones that get wrapped up the quickest are the ones where no one takes the bait. The troll gains nothing if you do not respond to them. How could they know if their target is "suffering in silence"? If their target says nothing, the troll gets no input. But women have become an "e celebrity" through sexism without assholes harassing them. How do you think those streamers who a poor to average at whatever game it is get so many subs? Could it possibly be because they wear low-cut tops in their stream? Next thing you will tell me is that girls wouldn't get harassed in public if they didn't wear such sexy outfits. On March 11 2015 05:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 04:58 Shiragaku wrote:
And now the MRAs are here to derail the discussion with the Olympic Oppression Games and trying to blame problems caused by the feminist world order. I am waiting for the Red Pill discussion and how its a woman's world.
On March 11 2015 05:07 Plansix wrote:
Its only a matter of time before they start trotting out the cooked up stats that men face more domestic abuse than women and more work place discrimination.
There's really no answer to this. What was your point exactly? I mean you're putting words in people's mouths and even the people are also imaginary. If someone used misleading or false statistics, they would be wrong. Statistics is a subtle and not always intuitive science, and it's hard for most anyone to really understand it.
But why did you bring it up? Vaguely referenced statistics that we are just supposed to know about, and also know that they're debunked? Because I don't have any idea what you're talking about. And look, if I said "it's just a matter of time before Plansix brings up the 1 in 4 myth or the 77 cents pay gap, therefore I've discredited anything Plansix ever has to say"...? It's fallacious, isn't it. You didn't like refute somebody that posted here, you're just talking to yourself. You keep "waiting" for people to say something or other point that's similar to one you've heard before so you can strawman them. Do you really know what everyone else is going to say before they do? Because I don't, and I'm trying to learn here.
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I think one of the most annoying arguments I keep hearing is the one about how men are not "sexually" harassed in games and women are. Yet part of the reason why there's such a stigma on girls being harassed is because it happens (counter-intuitively enough) LESS often, and so it sticks out. I mean there are fewer girls playing the male-dominated games like COD so when there's a girl, people are more attentive and intrigued. And the insults are misogynist because they're targeted at women.
Yet when I get called a faggot, when they talk about the size of my penis and whatnot, it's not a big deal. Weirdly enough, so called "feminists" outright assume that my small penis can defend itself, yet people with vaginas are martyrs who can't take the flak that comes from internet trolls whether you like it or not. The fact is, men get "sexually harassed" on games, but because it's super normal for that to happen, it doesn't make any headlines. No man is going to call the media only to get told "lol you got trolled bud".
The type of feminism that's been popularized by Anita Sarkeesian, Tumblr and these other folks is profoundly fucked up and counter productive. Equality is not achieved by antagonizing people in this way.
And I'm not saying there's no scientific basis for any of it, but frankly a big hunk of it is complete BS, and the rest should be communicated differently. At this point, it's clear that some of these "critics of the patriarchy" are not activists gunning for change, but business men and women who know how to capitalize on a constructed crisis.
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If you deal with enough MRAs you deal with the same debunked bullshit statistics and and cherry picked studies over and over. This site has a couple regular MRA that like to troll up and thread dealing with women's issues. People are just joking around because if you discuss feminism or women's issue on the Internet, the people find you.
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On March 11 2015 08:18 Djzapz wrote:
I think one of the most annoying arguments I keep hearing is the one about how men are not "sexually" harassed in games and women are. Yet part of the reason why there's such a stigma on girls being harassed is because it happens (counter-intuitively enough) LESS often, and so it sticks out. I mean there are fewer girls playing the male-dominated games like COD so when there's a girl, people are more attentive and intrigued. And the insults are misogynist because they're targeted at women.
Yet when I get called a faggot, when they talk about the size of my penis and whatnot, it's not a big deal. Weirdly enough, so called "feminists" outright assume that my small penis can defend itself, yet people with vaginas are martyrs who can't take the flak that comes from internet trolls whether you like it or not. The fact is, men get "sexually harassed" on games, but because it's super normal for that to happen, it doesn't make any headlines. No man is going to call the media only to get told "lol you got trolled bud".
The type of feminism that's been popularized by Anita Sarkeesian, Tumblr and these other folks is profoundly fucked up and counter productive. Equality is not achieved by antagonizing people in this way.
And I'm not saying there's no scientific basis for any of it, but frankly a big hunk of it is complete BS, and the rest should be communicated differently. At this point, it's clear that some of these "critics of the patriarchy" are not activists gunning for change, but business men and women who know how to capitalize on a constructed crisis.
First, no one is saying that men aren't being sexually harassed. The problem is that women are sexually harassed much, much, much more than men when they play video games, and it takes a special "something" to actually deny this. Just talk to almost ANY woman that has played a video game and odds are you've never had the creepy shit that's been said to her said to you.
Second, as I mentioned early, you're not being antagonized by any but the most fringe feminists. Feminists aren't saying that YOU are sexist. They're saying that gamer culture is sexist (which it is). The fact that you feel like this is antagonizing to YOU just betrays to everyone that you identify with even the unacceptable parts of gaming culture (racism/sexism/etc.) and it's something that you need to be worked on.
Third, of course there are people that are profiting off of the movement. That's what humans do. In general, we are greedy, selfish, and short-sighted. However, noting this isn't even remotely helpful or profound in any way. To say that any kind of significant population of feminists are activists simply to profit off of it is insulting, intellectually dishonest, and has no basis in fact or evidence.
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On March 11 2015 07:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 07:04 Falling wrote:On March 11 2015 06:04 Ovid wrote:On March 11 2015 06:00 Plansix wrote:On March 11 2015 05:51 Ovid wrote:
Perhaps it's just the difference in statistics and general social consensus between the UK and US? Why would that have any baring on the current discussion? Because it's the obvious difference we have and a possible explanation for our differing views. But this is my last post here, go tell a random women that you enjoy sticking up for her rights on a predominately male forum and see what reaction you get or post why you wouldn't want to do that. What happened to this? He needed to tell us all that women would be mad at us fighting about their rights without them around. Because that's how feminism works.
Didn't say or even imply they'd get mad, just would think the conversation would be awkward and patronising.
I came back because nothing annoys me more than statistics that don't make logical and numerical sense.
Logo can you just link because the Internet is a vast place and I'm unlikely to find the same study.
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On March 11 2015 08:29 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 08:18 Djzapz wrote:
I think one of the most annoying arguments I keep hearing is the one about how men are not "sexually" harassed in games and women are. Yet part of the reason why there's such a stigma on girls being harassed is because it happens (counter-intuitively enough) LESS often, and so it sticks out. I mean there are fewer girls playing the male-dominated games like COD so when there's a girl, people are more attentive and intrigued. And the insults are misogynist because they're targeted at women.
Yet when I get called a faggot, when they talk about the size of my penis and whatnot, it's not a big deal. Weirdly enough, so called "feminists" outright assume that my small penis can defend itself, yet people with vaginas are martyrs who can't take the flak that comes from internet trolls whether you like it or not. The fact is, men get "sexually harassed" on games, but because it's super normal for that to happen, it doesn't make any headlines. No man is going to call the media only to get told "lol you got trolled bud".
The type of feminism that's been popularized by Anita Sarkeesian, Tumblr and these other folks is profoundly fucked up and counter productive. Equality is not achieved by antagonizing people in this way.
And I'm not saying there's no scientific basis for any of it, but frankly a big hunk of it is complete BS, and the rest should be communicated differently. At this point, it's clear that some of these "critics of the patriarchy" are not activists gunning for change, but business men and women who know how to capitalize on a constructed crisis. First, no one is saying that men aren't being sexually harassed. The problem is that women are sexually harassed much, much, much more than men when they play video games, and it takes a special "something" to actually deny this. Just talk to almost ANY woman that has played a video game and odds are you've never had the creepy shit that's been said to her said to you. Second, as I mentioned early, you're not being antagonized by any but the most fringe feminists. Feminists aren't saying that YOU are sexist. They're saying that gamer culture is sexist (which it is). The fact that you feel like this is antagonizing to YOU just betrays to everyone that you identify with even the unacceptable parts of gaming culture (racism/sexism/etc.) and it's something that you need to be worked on. Third, of course there are people that are profiting off of the movement. That's what humans do. In general, we are greedy, selfish, and short-sighted. However, noting this isn't even remotely helpful or profound in any way. To say that any kind of significant population of feminists are activists simply to profit off of it is insulting, intellectually dishonest, and has no basis in fact or evidence.
First, I like that you insult my intelligence with the words "little something", very mature and sneaky, but nonetheless I'll say that I agree that women get harassed a lot more, although you're wrong when you say that "no one is saying that men aren't being sexually harassed". You'll find, if you read around, that pretty much every bottom of the barrel stupid ass argument is being made, and is supported by the masses, including the argument that "men NEVER get sexually harassed, women ALWAYS get sexually harassed". But my point stands, the instances of women being sexually harassed by young, stupid trolls are out there because women are rarer. But what's important to notice is, for many of those "gamers are sexists" movement, the endgame is to show that there's a sexist culture in gaming in general, that female gamers are unwelcome into games - which btw is likely as fuck to dissuade girls from even trying it. And every instance of harassment will be viewed as systemic harassment toward women, whereas the daily harassment I face as a male gamer is nothing.
Second, you need a special "something" to not realize that the "most fringe" feminists as you put it are slowly creeping into the mainstream, at least on the internet. Do you think Anita Sarkeesian and the likes don't antagonize men? She has a PR face, she can be reasonable, but she can be extremely harsh and some of her statements are incredibly generalizing regarding men and their contribution to the systemic problem that she tries to expose. And yet she has a massive audience. Absolutely massive.
Third, the fact that people try to capitalize off of this is not trivial. It is what this is. The entire conversation stems from a marketable crisis. You don't "treat" inequality as a social "disease" by pointing out one of its fucking symptoms, the lowest common denominators which is constituted of a bunch of prepubescent fuckwits.
In the end these conversations will always come down to the same comprehension problem. They'll say "It's only the extremists who are saying these things". And when you point out that the extremists have a massive following, everybody has their fucking blinders on. There is a foundation of truth behind this, a solid one - and yet the marketing pros are making a big mess of bullshit and I think that many people are too stupid to see though it. And I think it's sad, because if you can't define and place legit boundaries about what constitutes inequality, then you can't fix anything.
This whole debate is fucking bullshit. Equality in games. It's a minor, obvious symptom of an overarching problem. And once again, that is not to say we shouldn't talk about it, but framing is important. And it's rarely framed properly. To ignore the fact that many of those who talk about this problem are actually antagonizing gamers is ridiculous.
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