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On March 10 2015 10:46 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:44 Plansix wrote:
As do discrimation is only caused by people asking for it. What a novel point of view that I have never heard before ever. Of course the the only people complaining abou sexism and racism are really just dirty scam artists trying to trick people put of their money. Of course that's the case.
Give me a break. Once again, point my stupid head right into the discrimination you're talking about.
There's like a few studies cited just in the 23/24 page of this thread. There's the documentary in the op, and there's the accounts of all the female gamers who are complaining about the situation. There's the coverage the news outlets both mainstream and gaming.
I suppose your response will be that even this evidence is inconclusive, or the product of a sjw conspiracy right? By now I've become familiar with the usual excuses:
Evidence of harassment towards women doesn't show that they receive extra harassment than me.
The documentary is attention whoring.
Female gamers are complaining to be the victim or get attention.
The papers and news outlets are all corrupt and concern about money
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 10 2015 13:08 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 10:46 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:44 Plansix wrote:
As do discrimation is only caused by people asking for it. What a novel point of view that I have never heard before ever. Of course the the only people complaining abou sexism and racism are really just dirty scam artists trying to trick people put of their money. Of course that's the case.
Give me a break. Once again, point my stupid head right into the discrimination you're talking about. There's like a few studies cited just in the 23/24 page of this thread. There's the documentary in the op, and there's the accounts of all the female gamers who are complaining about the situation. There's the coverage the news outlets both mainstream and gaming. I suppose your response will be that even this evidence is inconclusive, or the product of a sjw conspiracy right? By now I've become familiar with the usual excuses: Evidence of harassment towards women doesn't show that they receive extra harassment than me. The documentary is attention whoring. Female gamers are complaining to be the victim or get attention. The papers and news outlets are all corrupt and concern about money
This whole topic (and OP with it) talks about verbal harassment. Maybe it's me but discrimination is slightly different. Unless you are the one implying women can't deal with trolling. As for industry gender distribution, I do not need to explain why it is like that, do I?
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On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
Rape is serious and terrible no matter who it happens to, and it also strikes me as hyperbolic to suggest it's a fundamental part of a woman's identity? Did I read this wrong?
You did, because I also said "or experience".
I know you said that, and you will excuse me for not quoting you verbatim, but I don't think it significantly affects the statement.
On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Women are the victims of rape over 90% of the time. There are a whole host of other crimes or occurrences that are more likely to happen for men, whereas rape is a very real possibility that they must be conscious of, not least of all because of the history of our patriarchal society and the fact that rape was legal in many contexts for hundreds (if not thousands) of years.
Rape is not legal now in the western world. Whether it was criminalized in the past is not a realistic concern for people living today, any more than the history of the African slave trade means a black person in the west today should be worried about being bought or sold. I don't buy the history of rape being relevant here either, any more than tuberculosis, which has killed 1 in 7 of all human beings, is something people lose sleep over in the developed world today.
On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
I think this is plainly backwards, a person's identity will subject them to discrimination from some people and acceptance from others. Discrimination is a function of your identity, it's not where your identity comes from.
You're simplifying identity. Identity isn't just what physical/mental traits someone has, but what someone sees themselves as. White men typically don't have to say, "I'm a white male" when they are asked to give a few characteristics about themselves. Conversely, most black people/homosexuals/women will use these identifiers because they are forced to acknowledge them and forced to be conscious of them due to the fact that they face discrimination or oppression because of these features every day.
I'm confused about this bit still. I guess I would agree "white men typically don't have to say, I'm a white male," but I think that's a linguistic trick, sex and ethnicity are visually discernible and I would be suspicious of anyone who walked up to me and told me what their sex was. It's possible people identifying like that is partly a historical artifact, like black pride from the civil rights movement.
On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +
Why is it so impossible for "white men" to understand the plight of anyone else? White men are sociopaths and can't experience empathy? They are never the subject of harassment and so they can't relate to someone else?
If you try to exclude people's opinions based on a superficial trait, doesn't that work both ways? Doesn't that work against solidarity and a real conversation? Suppose you grant that it's impossible for you to ever understand what it's like to be a woman and the problems a woman faces. How do you know her experience is better or worse than anyone else's experience? Because she said so? But it's also impossible for her to understand what it's like to be you, right? You only have the experience of you and she only has the experience of her. There's nobody who has 2 reference points to actually compare, right?
No, and the strawmans aren't appreciated. Try a little harder. It's not a matter of it being impossible (something that I never said). Rather, it's really difficult, and it's really evident when you have people in this country (usually conservatives) saying, "Racism/sexism/homophobia don't exist in this country anymore". Those of you that think these aren't a problem in the gaming community are doing exactly the same thing; you are unable or unwilling to sympathize with the plight of another group that isn't your own and are therefore downplaying the problems. You're entirely capable of it, but it's just not easy, and how is it supposed to be? It's trying to understand the complete absence of something (everyday discrimination).
Okay I will stipulate to the idea that it's very hard, but not impossible, for people to understand each other.
On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Another important thing to note is this whole idea of, "Well we suffer too!" The idea that men are the victims of rape (this point can be generalized to discussions about race or sexual orientation as well) as well and therefore we should downplay the problem that women face is 1) incredibly selfish and childish and 2) simply sexist. No one is denying that men suffer too. Yes, men are the victims of rape and rape is a horrible thing no matter the victim. Yes, there aren't proper resources for male victims.
I cannot begin to explain how never I said this.
My point is that as long as men and women are and can be victims of rape, I think there is no difference in how bad or hurtful or whatever it is to say "I am going to rape you" to a man than it is to say that to a woman. Men are the majority victims of homicide, right? Is it worse if an anonymous (man) online says "I'm going to kill you" to an anonymous (man) than to an anonymous (woman)? Or are women the minority perpetrators of homicide? So it's not as serious if a woman says she's going to kill you?
What would it mean if it were worse for a woman to hear "I am going to rape you" online than a man? It's not as bad as for a man, is the man is supposed to shrug it off, it's not as big a deal because of his gender? Is this position tenable?
My point is the vitriol of these statements isn't contingent on the the statistical distribution of violence in our pretty civilized society. Or what groups the speaker or listener belongs to.
On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:
However, the overwhelming majority of victims are female. The overwhelming majority of perpetrators are male.
The latter is pretty uncontroversial but the former isn't clear if you examine something like prison rape in the USA. At any rate, when you talk about the overwhelming majority of victims it's important to remember, going by the BJS, less than 0.1% (or fewer than 1 in 1000 people) of the US population per year is a victim. So you are talking about the overwhelming majority of less than 1 person in 1000.
On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Sexism has oppressed women for thousands of years, to a degree that we, as white males, will never come anywhere near experiencing.
I'm sorry, but nobody can come near to experiencing thousands of years except possibly Mel Brooks.
On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The only thing that your statement does when brought up in this context is to trivialize the female experience of rape/sexism. It doesn't help. You're not "standing up for the unsung little guy" or whatever. When the problem overwhelmingly affects women, trying to change the conversation and make men out to be the victim is absolutely ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.
Not sure what my statement was that you're referencing but I doubt it meant that. Of course rape and sexism are bad. But online harassment and trolling in games, whether it's bad or a non-issue (separate question), isn't rape.
On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +Whether you call it sexism or not, there exist sexual asymmetries that benefit women and these are manifested in the gaming community also. This is a perfect example of what I just mentioned. Mentioning these sexual asymmetries is nothing but a cheap attempt to trivialize the realities of sexism. Any benefits that women get because of these "sexual asymmetries" are completely drowned out by the overwhelming oppression that women suffer as a whole due to sexism. Yes, there are individual cases where women gain unfair advantages due to their sexuality, but to mention this in any sort of serious intellectual discussion about our overall culture is both lazy and insidious.
No, you are generalizing and putting bullshit words into my mouth. I did not bring that up out of nowhere. It was in response to Plansix who was categorically denying that it's possible for a woman to use her sex, in the gaming community, to her own advantage. I'm fairly sure it's possible and I don't think it's a big deal at all except to the extent Plansix was denying it.
In point of fact I do think the most fruitful way to look at the sexes is to honestly figure out all their differences. Not every asymmetry has to be a prominent topic or even an issue at all.* Sexism is shit but we're not in the 1800s** anymore and if you can only look through the lens of sexism you will start to see phantoms everywhere and that's not realistic. Sexism sucks but it's not a worldview.
*(I am going to preempt you this time - I did not and will never say rape is not a problem)
**(in fact I don't know if I would rather have been a man or woman in history but that's a neat question, I would probably commit suicide either way)
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Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I think this is plainly backwards, a person's identity will subject them to discrimination from some people and acceptance from others. Discrimination is a function of your identity, it's not where your identity comes from.
You're simplifying identity. Identity isn't just what physical/mental traits someone has, but what someone sees themselves as. White men typically don't have to say, "I'm a white male" when they are asked to give a few characteristics about themselves. Conversely, most black people/homosexuals/women will use these identifiers because they are forced to acknowledge them and forced to be conscious of them due to the fact that they face discrimination or oppression because of these features every day. I'm confused about this bit still. I guess I would agree "white men typically don't have to say, I'm a white male," but I think that's a linguistic trick, sex and ethnicity are visually discernible and I would be suspicious of anyone who walked up to me and told me what their sex was. It's possible people identifying like that is partly a historical artifact, like black pride from the civil rights movement.
You not needing to identify yourself as a white male isn't a linguistic trick, it's more a result of the normalization of the white form in our society. White is considered to be normal, natural, and beautiful. Hell just look for a flesh colored crayon-- I almost guarantee you it will be tan colored.
Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 11:54 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Another important thing to note is this whole idea of, "Well we suffer too!" The idea that men are the victims of rape (this point can be generalized to discussions about race or sexual orientation as well) as well and therefore we should downplay the problem that women face is 1) incredibly selfish and childish and 2) simply sexist. No one is denying that men suffer too. Yes, men are the victims of rape and rape is a horrible thing no matter the victim. Yes, there aren't proper resources for male victims. I cannot begin to explain how never I said this. My point is that as long as men and women are and can be victims of rape, I think there is no difference in how bad or hurtful or whatever it is to say "I am going to rape you" to a man than it is to say that to a woman. Men are the majority victims of homicide, right? Is it worse if an anonymous (man) online says "I'm going to kill you" to an anonymous (man) than to an anonymous (woman)? Or are women the minority perpetrators of homicide? So it's not as serious if a woman says she's going to kill you? What would it mean if it were worse for a woman to hear "I am going to rape you" online than a man? It's not as bad as for a man, is the man is supposed to shrug it off, it's not as big a deal because of his gender? Is this position tenable? My point is the vitriol of these statements isn't contingent on the the statistical distribution of violence in our pretty civilized society. Or what groups the speaker or listener belongs to.
Seems to be this is a false equivalence. Homicide and rape are two different crimes with different motives. The motives of homicide can vary from stupidity to greed, whereas rape is a crime of gaining power over someone, or trying to silence them. Unless you live in a third world country, murder isn't really something used to silence men anymore, whereas rape and threats thereof continue to provide a powerful tool to silence women.
To think that all vitriol effects everyone equally is foolish and ignorant of the impacts of words. Saying to a jewish person that you hope they die in an oven will be a much more powerful insult than to someone who is not a jew. Likewise for lynching and black people, or even nuking for japanese people.
It seems to me that as male gamers we have become desensitized to threats of violence against us. It has become so commonplace and normalized that these threats rarely hold power over us. It could also be that most men who play video games aren't in a position to easily be murdered. If you're playing a game you probably have money and some time, and are therefore likely to not be in a dangerous neighborhood or overseas fighting in a war. On the otherhand, women continue to exist in the male dominated world and have to deal with the chance they might be raped or assaulted because of what they wear or how they act.
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On March 10 2015 13:24 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 13:08 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 10:46 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:44 Plansix wrote:
As do discrimation is only caused by people asking for it. What a novel point of view that I have never heard before ever. Of course the the only people complaining abou sexism and racism are really just dirty scam artists trying to trick people put of their money. Of course that's the case.
Give me a break. Once again, point my stupid head right into the discrimination you're talking about. There's like a few studies cited just in the 23/24 page of this thread. There's the documentary in the op, and there's the accounts of all the female gamers who are complaining about the situation. There's the coverage the news outlets both mainstream and gaming. I suppose your response will be that even this evidence is inconclusive, or the product of a sjw conspiracy right? By now I've become familiar with the usual excuses: Evidence of harassment towards women doesn't show that they receive extra harassment than me. The documentary is attention whoring. Female gamers are complaining to be the victim or get attention. The papers and news outlets are all corrupt and concern about money This whole topic (and OP with it) talks about verbal harassment. Maybe it's me but discrimination is slightly different. Unless you are the one implying women can't deal with trolling. As for industry gender distribution, I do not need to explain why it is like that, do I?
I think if you read Plainsix in context, he is using the word discrimnation not in the terms of gender distribution in the industry, but sexist (whether passive or active) attitudes that give rise to the harassment of women online.
I also do not get why women need to "deal with" trolling, just because apparently you can. Shouldn't this be up to women to decide? And anyway why should any of us deal with trolling, since we can all agree it's a silly and childish practice. Why can't we do both - not feed the individual trolls on 4 chan while at the same time bringing attention to the broader practice and just how stupid it is?
I am really not sure why we can apparently all agree that trolling and toxicity is a problem in gaming communities, but when someone (in this case women) try to solve it, they are unwelcomed.
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On March 10 2015 13:35 oBlade wrote:
My point is that as long as men and women are and can be victims of rape, I think there is no difference in how bad or hurtful or whatever it is to say "I am going to rape you" to a man than it is to say that to a woman. Men are the majority victims of homicide, right? Is it worse if an anonymous (man) online says "I'm going to kill you" to an anonymous (man) than to an anonymous (woman)? Or are women the minority perpetrators of homicide? So it's not as serious if a woman says she's going to kill you?
What would it mean if it were worse for a woman to hear "I am going to rape you" online than a man? It's not as bad as for a man, is the man is supposed to shrug it off, it's not as big a deal because of his gender? Is this position tenable?
My point is the vitriol of these statements isn't contingent on the the statistical distribution of violence in our pretty civilized society. Or what groups the speaker or listener belongs to.
Just on this:
- It is different because of social context. Like between straight guys people call each other "fags" - obviously everyone is straight and they can understand that it is just a joke. The same insult of "fag" takes on a more serious meaning when you direct it at a gay man who probably would have received it as an insult in real life (a specific one towards his sexual orientation). The same reasoning goes for women being more likely to be victims of rape, or more broadly, targets of sexual harassment. So when you say "lol you got raped" to a guy, it is unlikely to mean as much to him since he is unlikely to have to worry about rape or sexual harassment in his life.
- And anyway, of course this doesnt mean that it's okay to tell a man to get raped. But since women might feel affected by such comments more, it is their perogative to take action and do something about it. Ideally, we can also work towards stop using "rape" as a lingo in gaming because it is dumb and childish, and we do not need to use it to enjoy playing games.
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Online, stay gender-neutral, it's not that complicated. Be color-neutral, religion-neutral, everything-neutral if possible. No need to give out useless details, all the more so as they can put you in jeopardy or you can get shit for it.
Well, that certainly doesn't apply to some social gaming interactions though, like live events or voice chats ;D
Keep in mind, that's not an order, that's me giving some piece of advice, that will make your life easier in the short term. Like "don't go out with that short skirt". It's not me being sexist, it's me being aware that some situations are statistically more dangerous than others and giving you notice of it. I agree that it's not fair, it's not just, it's not normal, but unless you're an active feminist, you're better off just following the extra precautions until, like I said, things become as they should (If you're an active feminist, well, good luck in your fight :D).
Edit: And I get that it's unfair that as men, we don't have to make special efforts to conceal our gender online (see, I'm not even trying), but until things settle in (in some years, most likely), women should be a bit careful of that first online approach phase where you don't know at all who you're dealing with on the other end of the wire.
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On March 10 2015 15:14 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: And I get that it's unfair that as men, we don't have to make special efforts to conceal our gender online (see, I'm not even trying), but until things settle in (in some years, most likely), women should be a bit careful of that first online approach phase where you don't know at all who you're dealing with on the other end of the wire.
That's really the issue: it's not going to "settle in" until people who play games make an effort to be inclusive (which implies listening to the people you want to include about what bothers them). You don't just wake up one day and suddenly ~sexism is over~: it takes work.
Right now a lot of people who play games want to have it both ways: they want gaming and e-sports to be an accepted part of the larger culture but they don't want it to change at all in the process or, worse, have to change their own behavior.
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This is actually a solved problem. It requires individuals to take responsibility for themselves.
Random strangers are a diverse lot. Some of them are rude, cheat at games or try hitting on people on line. Some of them think words that I don't particularly like are the most natural thing, be they racial epithets or sex related swearwords. We all have ideas about how people ought to behave, but pontificating very rarely helps.
I never liked playing SC:BW with hackers, but they were all over the place on Battlenet, so I had to start playing on iCCup. I didn't like playing laggy games either, so I had to learn to avoid players from certain countries, such as Peru in my case. I never wrote forum posts complaining about my problems, but found ways to work around them.
Some people pretend that immaturity, abuse, cheating, screaming and rape threats are everywhere on the Internet. It is entirely false. These things crop up only where you have anonymous strangers interacting too briefly to get to know each other and where transgressions have trivial consequences. Team Liquid is mostly civil, while 4chan comes with no such guarantees. There are plenty of well-behaved WoW guilds. Random matchmaking with strangers in free to play games though - not so much.
The beautiful thing about all of this, is that if you are a valuable person - in the sense that you are fun to play with or skillful or part of a cool community or a paying customer - you get to define social norms. If Blizzard feels that a hostile environment are driving away female subscribers in droves, they will do something. If RageKid123 wants to be a part of a DotA team, he will very quickly learn what the team considers acceptable. If he feels that the teams are way too politically correct and uptight, he will try to start a new team with MotherFucker5000 and TheRapist.
The downside is that you have to understand that the Internet works just like the real world. You make friends, form and join communities, treat strangers with skepticism, and sometimes even have to call the police, the real world equivalent of moderators. If the sort of people you want to be around also like you, and if you invest the required effort into finding and maintaining these relationships, everything's fine. If not, you can try sitting at home and feeling sorry for yourself and expecting someone else to solve your problems and everybody in the world to start behaving according to your values.
The moment hormonal, raging Internet thugs start feeling they are being excluded from the wonderful communities of women on the Internet who don't tolerate their antics, you can tell them how to behave and they will actually listen.
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On March 10 2015 16:28 incoherent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 15:14 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: And I get that it's unfair that as men, we don't have to make special efforts to conceal our gender online (see, I'm not even trying), but until things settle in (in some years, most likely), women should be a bit careful of that first online approach phase where you don't know at all who you're dealing with on the other end of the wire. That's really the issue: it's not going to "settle in" until people who play games make an effort to be inclusive (which implies listening to the people you want to include about what bothers them). You don't just wake up one day and suddenly ~sexism is over~: it takes work. Right now a lot of people who play games want to have it both ways: they want gaming and e-sports to be an accepted part of the larger culture but they don't want it to change at all in the process or, worse, have to change their own behavior.
I said "settle in" because I won't lie to you, I won't work for it. I don't know what reasonable well-mannered people can do about it (short of being activists), which, I guess, I consider being a part of. I think most guys are happy to know that girls love gaming too, so this OP is actually most likely preaching to the choir.
What do you want me to say? "Yes, girls, like guys, should be treated with respect, IRL or on the Internet?". I try to apply myself to that (I lie, I don't even try). What do you want more? I'm not one to think I have the power to change society's mindset :D
The only problem in this thread is the common victim blaming, but what can I do about that either... "Victim blaming is bad!".
Edit: As far as I'm concerned, I think I would be ready to accept the end of anonymous Internet. Like, everything you say on the Internet could be tied to your name and identity. That would end "trolling" (the unfunny bullying kind) FAST and HARD.
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You and others have though. Every time you or others say that men cannot understand how it feels, you're implying women are special little snowflakes who cannot handle harsh language and must be protected from such vulgarity.
I think this is kind of a misunderstanding of the point. There's a world of difference between saying women can't deal with sexism and abuse and saying that they shouldn't have to. I have yet to meet a woman who is not very good at dealing with abuse and bullshit because, well, they have no choice but to be, it is pervasive. Yet I would prefer if they could invest the time and strength they invest in putting up with this crap into other things, like having fun.
The reason why the gaming community in particular should (as a personal opinion) extend additional courtesy to women is for two reasons: 1) Women are a minority and have fewer authority figures and community support networks to access to help them cope with the shit everyone cops in gaming, recognizing that women have their own fears and anxieties that come from their social upbringing that guys don't have to deal with so much, just as we have ones that they don't, so they can't just use existing authority/support and 2) The kind of violence and abuse women tend to suffer is around controlling their behavior, limiting their freedoms and degrading their sense of self, whereas the kind men face tends to be either callous (they are abused as a means to another end) or spontaneous (someone frightened or angry going off the rails).
a female gamer may suffer incipient taunts, put-downs, solicitations and ongoing harassment. Bullying is most likely to take the form of a group of other gamers coordinating to seemingly independently harass or abuse.
a male gamer may get griefed or raged at, suffer put-downs and (a lot more rarely) be overtly bullied by a declared group.
I've found the vast majority of abuse I and other guys I know suffer is these first two- being trolled or griefed, which usually has an impersonal feel about it, where someone is pissed and wants to enjoy watching other people suffer, it doesn't matter who, or being raged at, usually because you threw someone's game off and interrupted their enjoyment and they feel entitled to vent their frustration at you (or anyone else nearby).
To me it feels like this kind of abuse, while unacceptable and worth working to prevent, is far easier to cope with than abuse that's a lot more about hurting, frightening and pushing around the target than venting. I despise bullies and the tone of abuse that women receive in games is about the ugliest bullying I've seen. I've almost never seen a guy cop that same level of concentrated, focused abuse.
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On March 10 2015 17:16 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 16:28 incoherent wrote:On March 10 2015 15:14 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: And I get that it's unfair that as men, we don't have to make special efforts to conceal our gender online (see, I'm not even trying), but until things settle in (in some years, most likely), women should be a bit careful of that first online approach phase where you don't know at all who you're dealing with on the other end of the wire. That's really the issue: it's not going to "settle in" until people who play games make an effort to be inclusive (which implies listening to the people you want to include about what bothers them). You don't just wake up one day and suddenly ~sexism is over~: it takes work. Right now a lot of people who play games want to have it both ways: they want gaming and e-sports to be an accepted part of the larger culture but they don't want it to change at all in the process or, worse, have to change their own behavior. I said "settle in" because I won't lie to you, I won't work for it. I don't know what reasonable well-mannered people can do about it (short of being activists), which, I guess, I consider being a part of. I think most guys are happy to know that girls love gaming too, so this OP is actually most likely preaching to the choir. What do you want me to say? "Yes, girls, like guys, should be treated with respect, IRL or on the Internet?". I try to apply myself to that (I lie, I don't even try). What do you want more? I'm not one to think I have the power to change society's mindset :D The only problem in this thread is the common victim blaming, but what can I do about that either... "Victim blaming is bad!". Edit: As far as I'm concerned, I think I would be ready to accept the end of anonymous Internet. Like, everything you say on the Internet could be tied to your name and identity. That would end "trolling" (the unfunny bullying kind) FAST and HARD.
Isn't this just you saying "girls in gaiming are great, but I am too lazy to do anything to make them feel welcomed", i.e. the exact point incoherent was making.
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On March 10 2015 17:16 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 16:28 incoherent wrote:On March 10 2015 15:14 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: And I get that it's unfair that as men, we don't have to make special efforts to conceal our gender online (see, I'm not even trying), but until things settle in (in some years, most likely), women should be a bit careful of that first online approach phase where you don't know at all who you're dealing with on the other end of the wire. That's really the issue: it's not going to "settle in" until people who play games make an effort to be inclusive (which implies listening to the people you want to include about what bothers them). You don't just wake up one day and suddenly ~sexism is over~: it takes work. Right now a lot of people who play games want to have it both ways: they want gaming and e-sports to be an accepted part of the larger culture but they don't want it to change at all in the process or, worse, have to change their own behavior. I said "settle in" because I won't lie to you, I won't work for it. I don't know what reasonable well-mannered people can do about it (short of being activists), which, I guess, I consider being a part of. I think most guys are happy to know that girls love gaming too, so this OP is actually most likely preaching to the choir. What do you want me to say? "Yes, girls, like guys, should be treated with respect, IRL or on the Internet?". I try to apply myself to that (I lie, I don't even try). What do you want more? I'm not one to think I have the power to change society's mindset :D The only problem in this thread is the common victim blaming, but what can I do about that either... "Victim blaming is bad!". Edit: As far as I'm concerned, I think I would be ready to accept the end of anonymous Internet. Like, everything you say on the Internet could be tied to your name and identity. That would end "trolling" (the unfunny bullying kind) FAST and HARD.
Have you seen Facebook?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 10 2015 14:52 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 13:24 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 13:08 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 10:46 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 10:44 Plansix wrote:
As do discrimation is only caused by people asking for it. What a novel point of view that I have never heard before ever. Of course the the only people complaining abou sexism and racism are really just dirty scam artists trying to trick people put of their money. Of course that's the case.
Give me a break. Once again, point my stupid head right into the discrimination you're talking about. There's like a few studies cited just in the 23/24 page of this thread. There's the documentary in the op, and there's the accounts of all the female gamers who are complaining about the situation. There's the coverage the news outlets both mainstream and gaming. I suppose your response will be that even this evidence is inconclusive, or the product of a sjw conspiracy right? By now I've become familiar with the usual excuses: Evidence of harassment towards women doesn't show that they receive extra harassment than me. The documentary is attention whoring. Female gamers are complaining to be the victim or get attention. The papers and news outlets are all corrupt and concern about money This whole topic (and OP with it) talks about verbal harassment. Maybe it's me but discrimination is slightly different. Unless you are the one implying women can't deal with trolling. As for industry gender distribution, I do not need to explain why it is like that, do I? I think if you read Plainsix in context, he is using the word discrimnation not in the terms of gender distribution in the industry, but sexist (whether passive or active) attitudes that give rise to the harassment of women online. I also do not get why women need to "deal with" trolling, just because apparently you can. Shouldn't this be up to women to decide? And anyway why should any of us deal with trolling, since we can all agree it's a silly and childish practice. Why can't we do both - not feed the individual trolls on 4 chan while at the same time bringing attention to the broader practice and just how stupid it is? I am really not sure why we can apparently all agree that trolling and toxicity is a problem in gaming communities, but when someone (in this case women) try to solve it, they are unwelcomed.
I mean, see, calling sexist attitudes "discrimination" is uhm... underselling it, since certain women (won't point fingers, you know the kind yourself better than me) totally make good use of that attitude and their looks to make money for themselves. The only thing that aforementioned "sexist" attitude provides is a bait for women to bite by any form of reaction.
Now onto, the part with "deal with". Women don't need to "deal with" trolling/flaming/being raged at anymore than men do, just as men all they need is a basic ability to ignore it completely in case of basic insults and slightly less basic ability to provide a good answer for weak, but not-straight-out insulting trolling, so the problem solves itself. As for trolling problem itself, well guess what, you can't modify people brain remotely and as such trolls and raging kids will always exist.
As for the attempt to solve it, see, the best way to deal with trolling as everyone and their mom knows is ignoring it. Paying attention to the problem, especially without any meaningful way to solve it (and hey, i have not heard a single good idea of dealing with trolling while reacting to it like ever, well, except straight out banning every single troll/flamer but in best case it does not solve anything (F2P games), and in worst one just pushes away potential customers, so does not work either) (i am talking online games, not moderated forums).
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On March 10 2015 17:16 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 16:28 incoherent wrote:On March 10 2015 15:14 ZenithM wrote:
Edit: And I get that it's unfair that as men, we don't have to make special efforts to conceal our gender online (see, I'm not even trying), but until things settle in (in some years, most likely), women should be a bit careful of that first online approach phase where you don't know at all who you're dealing with on the other end of the wire. That's really the issue: it's not going to "settle in" until people who play games make an effort to be inclusive (which implies listening to the people you want to include about what bothers them). You don't just wake up one day and suddenly ~sexism is over~: it takes work. Right now a lot of people who play games want to have it both ways: they want gaming and e-sports to be an accepted part of the larger culture but they don't want it to change at all in the process or, worse, have to change their own behavior. I said "settle in" because I won't lie to you, I won't work for it. I don't know what reasonable well-mannered people can do about it (short of being activists), which, I guess, I consider being a part of. I think most guys are happy to know that girls love gaming too, so this OP is actually most likely preaching to the choir. What do you want me to say? "Yes, girls, like guys, should be treated with respect, IRL or on the Internet?". I try to apply myself to that (I lie, I don't even try). What do you want more? I'm not one to think I have the power to change society's mindset :D
Start small, then: if you see something that clearly makes someone else uncomfortable, call it out. As a privileged person you might get listened to in ways that less privileged people would not.
On March 10 2015 18:17 lolfail9001 wrote:
As for the attempt to solve it, see, the best way to deal with trolling as everyone and their mom knows is ignoring it. Paying attention to the problem, especially without any meaningful way to solve it (and hey, i have not heard a single good idea of dealing with trolling while reacting to it like ever, well, except straight out banning every single troll/flamer but in best case it does not solve anything (F2P games), and in worst one just pushes away potential customers, so does not work either) (i am talking online games, not moderated forums).
Not all "potential customers" are positive for the overall business. In the same way that most businesses can and do kick people out for being disruptive to other customers, online games have the right to enforce rules of conduct. Chat muting exists in Dota 2 for a reason.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 10 2015 18:34 incoherent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 18:17 lolfail9001 wrote:
As for the attempt to solve it, see, the best way to deal with trolling as everyone and their mom knows is ignoring it. Paying attention to the problem, especially without any meaningful way to solve it (and hey, i have not heard a single good idea of dealing with trolling while reacting to it like ever, well, except straight out banning every single troll/flamer but in best case it does not solve anything (F2P games), and in worst one just pushes away potential customers, so does not work either) (i am talking online games, not moderated forums). Not all "potential customers" are positive for the overall business. In the same way that most businesses can and do kick people out for being disruptive to other customers, online games have the right to enforce rules of conduct. Chat muting exists in Dota 2 for a reason.
"Potential customers" being the kids that have the access to mommy's credit card, obviously. I mean, as we can see, those "potential customers" being ultra-toxic pre-pubic-hair-kids does not really hurt them sales, Bobby approves. Ah, yeah, chat muting does work too, but to be honest, it's just enforcing the ignore policy, granted, i do agree it's indeed a solution that has an action with it.
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On March 10 2015 19:18 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 18:34 incoherent wrote:On March 10 2015 18:17 lolfail9001 wrote:
As for the attempt to solve it, see, the best way to deal with trolling as everyone and their mom knows is ignoring it. Paying attention to the problem, especially without any meaningful way to solve it (and hey, i have not heard a single good idea of dealing with trolling while reacting to it like ever, well, except straight out banning every single troll/flamer but in best case it does not solve anything (F2P games), and in worst one just pushes away potential customers, so does not work either) (i am talking online games, not moderated forums). Not all "potential customers" are positive for the overall business. In the same way that most businesses can and do kick people out for being disruptive to other customers, online games have the right to enforce rules of conduct. Chat muting exists in Dota 2 for a reason. "Potential customers" being the kids that have the access to mommy's credit card, obviously. I mean, as we can see, those "potential customers" being ultra-toxic pre-pubic-hair-kids does not really hurt them sales, Bobby approves. Ah, yeah, chat muting does work too, but to be honest, it's just enforcing the ignore policy, granted, i do agree it's indeed a solution that has an action with it.
If these are the customers you're talking abou, then making harassment a big deal in mainstream media is a big and important step since it gets parents more aware of what their kids might be doing online (and get said kids to behave)
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 10 2015 19:43 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 19:18 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 18:34 incoherent wrote:On March 10 2015 18:17 lolfail9001 wrote:
As for the attempt to solve it, see, the best way to deal with trolling as everyone and their mom knows is ignoring it. Paying attention to the problem, especially without any meaningful way to solve it (and hey, i have not heard a single good idea of dealing with trolling while reacting to it like ever, well, except straight out banning every single troll/flamer but in best case it does not solve anything (F2P games), and in worst one just pushes away potential customers, so does not work either) (i am talking online games, not moderated forums). Not all "potential customers" are positive for the overall business. In the same way that most businesses can and do kick people out for being disruptive to other customers, online games have the right to enforce rules of conduct. Chat muting exists in Dota 2 for a reason. "Potential customers" being the kids that have the access to mommy's credit card, obviously. I mean, as we can see, those "potential customers" being ultra-toxic pre-pubic-hair-kids does not really hurt them sales, Bobby approves. Ah, yeah, chat muting does work too, but to be honest, it's just enforcing the ignore policy, granted, i do agree it's indeed a solution that has an action with it. If these are the customers you're talking abou, then making harassment a big deal in mainstream media is a big and important step since it gets parents more aware of what their kids might be doing online (and get said kids to behave)
I mean my initial phrase was about banning the flamers, obviously i was talking about that kind of customers (well and the ones who spend money buying accounts just to flame/troll and considering the story SC2 has with maphackers currently, certain people totally are not bothered wasting racks on racks on racks on buying accounts/maphacks). See, i am not exactly a middle aged man, hell, i am a freaking teen, so dare i say that even if this issue gets brought on mainstream media (like the FPS player shooting someone BS regularly does on Russian TV) that most of parents will just watch it, think that their kid is nice and dandy there and ignore the issue or do little to actually oppose it.
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
On March 10 2015 10:53 Glowsphere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 09:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ideally this wouldn't be an issue. Personally I tend towards Millitron's 'misogyny is the mechanism rather than the motivator' line of reasoning, for the most part. There are genuinely misogynistic assholes out there, but the majority I would surmise use a female gamer's gender as the stick to beat them with while trash talking, rather than it being the reason behind it. Likewise racist insults, likewise other. I don't really care myself for such trash talk, but once it became clear I was Irish I got a lot of abuse tailored towards that and I believe much of this is in a similar vein.
Frankly I'm fed up with this kind of fucking shit. Gaming's 'toxicity' is at worst a symptom of general societal misogyny and not a fucking root cause, these kind of articles and discussions lead nowhere.
Want a world without this kind of blowback? Stop making celebrities out of women solely because they're hot, stop picking apart womens' physical flaws for the sake of copy, stop defining women by their attractiveness in the media culture. Stop placing those on a pedestal who have these rarified characteristics to the detriment of those who don't. An entire industry operates around pointing out flaws in beautiful women and then playing on the physical hangups of those who don't measure up to these archetypes.
Oh but yeah fuck me gamers are such dicks for being unpleasant over the internet.
Also fuck any girl who uses her gender and sexuality to gain a following in eSports/Twitch and then who subsequently complains about sexism if it's negative. Sexism isn't just negativity, it can be 'positive' - witness the idea of chivalrous behaviour which perpetuates sexism just as much as negative BS does. I agree with this, especially about the media/celebrity culture. I think people forget that the word misogyny means a hatred of women. There is no more misogynistic industry than the ones teaching women they should hate themselves. This would be not gaming, but the fashion, cosmetic, celebrity gossip industries and so on. But lets just continue calling everyone misogynists and ignore where it is actually coming from. I wish more women would take a stand against misogyny that is supported and perpetuated by females. Self hatred is far more toxic than that which comes from without.
Exactly, but yet how many mainstream newspaper articles deal with this kind of thing? For fuck's sake even something like the Oscars, an event to celebrate actual talent is accompanied with thousands of fluff articles on what the actresses were wearing on the night.
I do think that the gaming community should do a better job in not being idiots across the board, not really sure how one would go about doing that though.
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On March 10 2015 20:05 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 19:43 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 19:18 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 10 2015 18:34 incoherent wrote:On March 10 2015 18:17 lolfail9001 wrote:
As for the attempt to solve it, see, the best way to deal with trolling as everyone and their mom knows is ignoring it. Paying attention to the problem, especially without any meaningful way to solve it (and hey, i have not heard a single good idea of dealing with trolling while reacting to it like ever, well, except straight out banning every single troll/flamer but in best case it does not solve anything (F2P games), and in worst one just pushes away potential customers, so does not work either) (i am talking online games, not moderated forums). Not all "potential customers" are positive for the overall business. In the same way that most businesses can and do kick people out for being disruptive to other customers, online games have the right to enforce rules of conduct. Chat muting exists in Dota 2 for a reason. "Potential customers" being the kids that have the access to mommy's credit card, obviously. I mean, as we can see, those "potential customers" being ultra-toxic pre-pubic-hair-kids does not really hurt them sales, Bobby approves. Ah, yeah, chat muting does work too, but to be honest, it's just enforcing the ignore policy, granted, i do agree it's indeed a solution that has an action with it. If these are the customers you're talking abou, then making harassment a big deal in mainstream media is a big and important step since it gets parents more aware of what their kids might be doing online (and get said kids to behave) I mean my initial phrase was about banning the flamers, obviously i was talking about that kind of customers (well and the ones who spend money buying accounts just to flame/troll and considering the story SC2 has with maphackers currently, certain people totally are not bothered wasting racks on racks on racks on buying accounts/maphacks). See, i am not exactly a middle aged man, hell, i am a freaking teen, so dare i say that even if this issue gets brought on mainstream media (like the FPS player shooting someone BS regularly does on Russian TV) that most of parents will just watch it, think that their kid is nice and dandy there and ignore the issue or do little to actually oppose it.
Well if the teenagers (not you, hypothetical ones) are spending their parent's money to flame people online and the parents start seeing news articles, then parents are more likely to do something.
What bothers me about the way you (and some others) are posting is that you guys have basically just given up and think that the only want to deal with trolls is to ignore them. Several people have pointed out in different ways how bringing attention, having game companies take action, and even just letting female gamers know that others are looking out for them, all help the situation. And that this can all be done at the same time as ignoring individual trolls that come up during games.
Yet we always just seem to come back to the same negative "nothing we do is going to help" starting point.
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