|
|
On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next"
What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something?
On January 13 2015 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:57 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:[ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid. I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. again you didn't understand the statement either it's a symbol meaning that if we're not able to make the community that was the most targeted and suffered the most from recent history feel safe, history will repeat again a community of ppl leaves france as they're targeted because they're a community means we fail at protecting communities in our country spanish ppl feel safe in France and won't have to leave why ? are we giving them special treatment ? it's just they're lucky to not bear any stigmate from history what he meant by "i dont care if 100 000 spanish leave france" was that this is impossible and irrealistic and won't happen while 100 000 jews leaving for Israel can very well happen and would be the same as losing 100 000 citizens because of terrible events like in the WWII You're the one who didn't understand their point : it's also a symbol to reaffirm the national unity. A jew dying is a tragic event, but it's first and foremost a french dying, a brother (fraternité), a Citizen : when a french jew is attacked, the muslim community should also feel attacked, which is not the case if you differenciate the two (it's the same process applied with social security or school : creating distinctions eventually lead to distinguished systems, with school and hospitals for jewish and muslim). Putting the jewish community on a pedestale only create friction between communities that feel like the republic is not treating its Citizen equally.
I don't know if you are familiar with the Jewish community but the concerns of some/most Jewish in France is precisely that they are not being put on a pedestal, but that the government(s) doesn't care about them and their security, and that non-Jewish French people consider them as non-French.
And concerning Valls' sentence I think we shouldn't look too much into it tbh. It feels pretty obvious to me that it was a response to Netanyahu proposing to the Jewish community to come to Israel.
|
|
|
On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 18:57 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:[ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid. I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. again you didn't understand the statement either it's a symbol meaning that if we're not able to make the community that was the most targeted and suffered the most from recent history feel safe, history will repeat again a community of ppl leaves france as they're targeted because they're a community means we fail at protecting communities in our country spanish ppl feel safe in France and won't have to leave why ? are we giving them special treatment ? it's just they're lucky to not bear any stigmate from history what he meant by "i dont care if 100 000 spanish leave france" was that this is impossible and irrealistic and won't happen while 100 000 jews leaving for Israel can very well happen and would be the same as losing 100 000 citizens because of terrible events like in the WWII You're the one who didn't understand their point : it's also a symbol to reaffirm the national unity. A jew dying is a tragic event, but it's first and foremost a french dying, a brother (fraternité), a Citizen : when a french jew is attacked, the muslim community should also feel attacked, which is not the case if you differenciate the two (it's the same process applied with social security or school : creating distinctions eventually lead to distinguished systems, with school and hospitals for jewish and muslim). Putting the jewish community on a pedestale only create friction between communities that feel like the republic is not treating its Citizen equally. I don't know if you are familiar with the Jewish community but the concerns of some/most Jewish in France is precisely that they are not being put on a pedestal, but that the government(s) doesn't care about them and their security, and that non-Jewish French people consider them as non-French. And concerning Valls' sentence I think we shouldn't look too much into it tbh. It feels pretty obvious to me that it was a response to Netanyahu proposing to the Jewish community to come to Israel.
jewish ppl began migrating there as early as end 19th / early 20th to establish colonies
|
On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something?
Boonbag explanation of the whole story gave me a headache, but the thing is that zionists agreed with the nazis about a whole bunch of things to basically try to get german (and european) jews to Palestine. It worked in a certain extent, until the moment Hitler decided that it would be quicker to just kill everyone (extermination camps come quite late in history if nazism, actually).
If you are interested, there is the phenomenal series of book by Henry Jorens called "La Question de Palestine" (in French only), that gets into the extreme detail of what happened at the time. It's four books of 500 pages so it's only if you are really interested though. The impression you get from the zionist movement at the time is nothing less than terrifying.
At the end of the reading, I have to say that the conclusion I got to is that the zionist movement agreed with the antisemitic movement on the most fundamental thing: that jews and non jews couldn't live in peace, that they couldn't mix. Of course, zionism was born from Russian exiles who has experienced first hand what it meant to be subject to a genocide, but the european jews, who were living in peace, reacted originally extremely strongly against zionist ideas. Under my reading of things, the ultimate irony is that Israel is the embodiment of anti-semitic most fundamental ideas.
But that's completely off topic of course.
|
On January 13 2015 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Boonbag explanation of the whole story gave me a headache, but the thing is that zionists agreed with the nazis about a whole bunch of things to basically try to get german (and european) jews to Palestine. It worked in a certain extent, until the moment Hitler decided that it would be quicker to just kill everyone (extermination camps come quite late in history if nazism, actually). If you are interested, there is the phenomenal series of book by Henry Jorens called "La Question de Palestine" (in French only), that gets into the extreme detail of what happened at the time. It's four books of 500 pages so it's only if you are really interested though. The impression you get from the zionist movement at the time is nothing less than terrifying. At the end of the reading, I have to say that the conclusion I got to is that the zionist movement agreed with the antisemitic movement on the most fundamental thing: that jews and non jews couldn't live in peace, that they couldn't mix. Of course, zionism was born from Russian exiles who has experienced first hand what it meant to be subject to a genocide, but the european jews, who were living in peace, reacted originally extremely strongly against zionist ideas. Under my reading of things, the ultimate irony is that Israel is the embodiment of anti-semitic most fundamental ideas. But that's completely off topic of course.
how is that different from what i wrote ? aside the fact it doesnt sound like a five years old talking
|
On January 13 2015 23:59 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Boonbag explanation of the whole story gave me a headache, but the thing is that zionists agreed with the nazis about a whole bunch of things to basically try to get german (and european) jews to Palestine. It worked in a certain extent, until the moment Hitler decided that it would be quicker to just kill everyone (extermination camps come quite late in history if nazism, actually). If you are interested, there is the phenomenal series of book by Henry Jorens called "La Question de Palestine" (in French only), that gets into the extreme detail of what happened at the time. It's four books of 500 pages so it's only if you are really interested though. The impression you get from the zionist movement at the time is nothing less than terrifying. At the end of the reading, I have to say that the conclusion I got to is that the zionist movement agreed with the antisemitic movement on the most fundamental thing: that jews and non jews couldn't live in peace, that they couldn't mix. Of course, zionism was born from Russian exiles who has experienced first hand what it meant to be subject to a genocide, but the european jews, who were living in peace, reacted originally extremely strongly against zionist ideas. Under my reading of things, the ultimate irony is that Israel is the embodiment of anti-semitic most fundamental ideas. But that's completely off topic of course. how is that different from what i wrote ? aside the fact it doesnt sound like a five years old talking
The content is pretty much the same, but you have a way to put it that would make 2+2=4 sound like a truly hard to believe story.
No offense.
|
On January 13 2015 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Boonbag explanation of the whole story gave me a headache, but the thing is that zionists agreed with the nazis about a whole bunch of things to basically try to get german (and european) jews to Palestine. It worked in a certain extent, until the moment Hitler decided that it would be quicker to just kill everyone (extermination camps come quite late in history if nazism, actually). If you are interested, there is the phenomenal series of book by Henry Jorens called "La Question de Palestine" (in French only), that gets into the extreme detail of what happened at the time. It's four books of 500 pages so it's only if you are really interested though. The impression you get from the zionist movement at the time is nothing less than terrifying. At the end of the reading, I have to say that the conclusion I got to is that the zionist movement agreed with the antisemitic movement on the most fundamental thing: that jews and non jews couldn't live in peace, that they couldn't mix. Of course, zionism was born from Russian exiles who has experienced first hand what it meant to be subject to a genocide, but the european jews, who were living in peace, reacted originally extremely strongly against zionist ideas. Under my reading of things, the ultimate irony is that Israel is the embodiment of anti-semitic most fundamental ideas. But that's completely off topic of course.
Oh thanks. Well, oftentimes opposite extremisms share way more similarities than they want to admit.
|
Ah yes, some more CRS SS. Indeed French police forces are Nazis, let's not forget that. I had no idea Cabu criticized the military so harshly. That's pretty ironic, did he not realize that the armed forces of France are the ones who are combating terrorism in the Mali, Syria, Afghanistan, etc? It was the GIGN who brought an end to the situation.
E: Ah that explanation you posted though makes a lot of sense, thank you for that.
|
On January 14 2015 00:09 Incognoto wrote:Ah yes, some more CRS SS. Indeed French police forces are Nazis, let's not forget that. I had no idea Cabu criticized the military so harshly. That's pretty ironic, did he not realize that the armed forces of France are the ones who are combating terrorism in the Mali, Syria, Afghanistan, etc? It was the GIGN who brought an end to the situation.
lol do yyou even realize what kind of atrocities french army perpetuated until very recent history
|
On January 14 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Boonbag explanation of the whole story gave me a headache, but the thing is that zionists agreed with the nazis about a whole bunch of things to basically try to get german (and european) jews to Palestine. It worked in a certain extent, until the moment Hitler decided that it would be quicker to just kill everyone (extermination camps come quite late in history if nazism, actually). If you are interested, there is the phenomenal series of book by Henry Jorens called "La Question de Palestine" (in French only), that gets into the extreme detail of what happened at the time. It's four books of 500 pages so it's only if you are really interested though. The impression you get from the zionist movement at the time is nothing less than terrifying. At the end of the reading, I have to say that the conclusion I got to is that the zionist movement agreed with the antisemitic movement on the most fundamental thing: that jews and non jews couldn't live in peace, that they couldn't mix. Of course, zionism was born from Russian exiles who has experienced first hand what it meant to be subject to a genocide, but the european jews, who were living in peace, reacted originally extremely strongly against zionist ideas. Under my reading of things, the ultimate irony is that Israel is the embodiment of anti-semitic most fundamental ideas. But that's completely off topic of course. Oh thanks. Well, oftentimes opposite extremisms share way more similarities than they want to admit.
The same facts have been presented with different lightings depending on the author. For some, it was just the jew agency acting to save persecuted jews from the nazis that had taken power, providing them with a legal way to leave Germany. Others have gone as far as stating that the zionists were supportive of the holocaust as a mean to boost immigration to Israel.
(well ... the last case I only saw in critics of The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism which is a highly controversial book written by Mahmoud Abbas prior to his political carreer in Palestine, when he was still listed as part of the palestinian terrorist movements)
|
On January 14 2015 00:23 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Boonbag explanation of the whole story gave me a headache, but the thing is that zionists agreed with the nazis about a whole bunch of things to basically try to get german (and european) jews to Palestine. It worked in a certain extent, until the moment Hitler decided that it would be quicker to just kill everyone (extermination camps come quite late in history if nazism, actually). If you are interested, there is the phenomenal series of book by Henry Jorens called "La Question de Palestine" (in French only), that gets into the extreme detail of what happened at the time. It's four books of 500 pages so it's only if you are really interested though. The impression you get from the zionist movement at the time is nothing less than terrifying. At the end of the reading, I have to say that the conclusion I got to is that the zionist movement agreed with the antisemitic movement on the most fundamental thing: that jews and non jews couldn't live in peace, that they couldn't mix. Of course, zionism was born from Russian exiles who has experienced first hand what it meant to be subject to a genocide, but the european jews, who were living in peace, reacted originally extremely strongly against zionist ideas. Under my reading of things, the ultimate irony is that Israel is the embodiment of anti-semitic most fundamental ideas. But that's completely off topic of course. Oh thanks. Well, oftentimes opposite extremisms share way more similarities than they want to admit. The same facts have been presented with different lightings depending on the author. For some, it was just the jew agency acting to save persecuted jews from the nazis that had taken power, providing them with a legal way to leave Germany. Others have gone as far as stating that the zionists were supportive of the holocaust as a mean to boost immigration to Israel. (well ... the last case I only saw in critics of The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism which is a highly controversial book written by Mahmoud Abbas prior to his political carreer in Palestine, when he was still listed as part of the palestinian terrorist movements)
yeah when reading on this you gotta be really careful cuz there's a whole lot of ill intended manipulation going on
the idea that zionists thought that jews couldn't live with non jews is stemming from a thousand years of perspecution towards them in Europe rather than from some sick ideology for instance
|
On January 14 2015 00:27 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 00:23 Oshuy wrote:On January 14 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Boonbag explanation of the whole story gave me a headache, but the thing is that zionists agreed with the nazis about a whole bunch of things to basically try to get german (and european) jews to Palestine. It worked in a certain extent, until the moment Hitler decided that it would be quicker to just kill everyone (extermination camps come quite late in history if nazism, actually). If you are interested, there is the phenomenal series of book by Henry Jorens called "La Question de Palestine" (in French only), that gets into the extreme detail of what happened at the time. It's four books of 500 pages so it's only if you are really interested though. The impression you get from the zionist movement at the time is nothing less than terrifying. At the end of the reading, I have to say that the conclusion I got to is that the zionist movement agreed with the antisemitic movement on the most fundamental thing: that jews and non jews couldn't live in peace, that they couldn't mix. Of course, zionism was born from Russian exiles who has experienced first hand what it meant to be subject to a genocide, but the european jews, who were living in peace, reacted originally extremely strongly against zionist ideas. Under my reading of things, the ultimate irony is that Israel is the embodiment of anti-semitic most fundamental ideas. But that's completely off topic of course. Oh thanks. Well, oftentimes opposite extremisms share way more similarities than they want to admit. The same facts have been presented with different lightings depending on the author. For some, it was just the jew agency acting to save persecuted jews from the nazis that had taken power, providing them with a legal way to leave Germany. Others have gone as far as stating that the zionists were supportive of the holocaust as a mean to boost immigration to Israel. (well ... the last case I only saw in critics of The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism which is a highly controversial book written by Mahmoud Abbas prior to his political carreer in Palestine, when he was still listed as part of the palestinian terrorist movements) yeah when reading on this you gotta be really careful cuz there's a whole lot of ill intended manipulation going on the idea that zionists thought that jews couldn't live with non jews is stemming from a thousand years of perspecution towards them in Europe rather than from some sick ideology for instance
Henry Laurens is Professor and Chair of History of the Contemporary Arab World at the Collège de France though, so I think we can safely hope that he's not as biased as someone like Mahmoud Abbas. But obviously sensitive subjects like these give birth to a whole lot of biased/false books and informations.
|
On January 14 2015 00:30 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 00:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 14 2015 00:23 Oshuy wrote:On January 14 2015 00:03 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Boonbag explanation of the whole story gave me a headache, but the thing is that zionists agreed with the nazis about a whole bunch of things to basically try to get german (and european) jews to Palestine. It worked in a certain extent, until the moment Hitler decided that it would be quicker to just kill everyone (extermination camps come quite late in history if nazism, actually). If you are interested, there is the phenomenal series of book by Henry Jorens called "La Question de Palestine" (in French only), that gets into the extreme detail of what happened at the time. It's four books of 500 pages so it's only if you are really interested though. The impression you get from the zionist movement at the time is nothing less than terrifying. At the end of the reading, I have to say that the conclusion I got to is that the zionist movement agreed with the antisemitic movement on the most fundamental thing: that jews and non jews couldn't live in peace, that they couldn't mix. Of course, zionism was born from Russian exiles who has experienced first hand what it meant to be subject to a genocide, but the european jews, who were living in peace, reacted originally extremely strongly against zionist ideas. Under my reading of things, the ultimate irony is that Israel is the embodiment of anti-semitic most fundamental ideas. But that's completely off topic of course. Oh thanks. Well, oftentimes opposite extremisms share way more similarities than they want to admit. The same facts have been presented with different lightings depending on the author. For some, it was just the jew agency acting to save persecuted jews from the nazis that had taken power, providing them with a legal way to leave Germany. Others have gone as far as stating that the zionists were supportive of the holocaust as a mean to boost immigration to Israel. (well ... the last case I only saw in critics of The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism which is a highly controversial book written by Mahmoud Abbas prior to his political carreer in Palestine, when he was still listed as part of the palestinian terrorist movements) yeah when reading on this you gotta be really careful cuz there's a whole lot of ill intended manipulation going on the idea that zionists thought that jews couldn't live with non jews is stemming from a thousand years of perspecution towards them in Europe rather than from some sick ideology for instance Henry Laurens is Professor and Chair of History of the Contemporary Arab World at the Collège de France though, so I think we can safely hope that he's not as biased as someone like Mahmoud Abbas. But obviously sensitive subjects like these give birth to a whole lot of biased/false books and informations.
oh man during my life i met scholars and decorated ppl of the highest degrees you wouldn't ever suspect from giving in crazy bullshit and then at the end of the diner they start claiming nobody ever landed on the moon...
you never know x_x
quality of work and ethics doesnt necesseraly implies mental integrity
claude allègre is a nice example
|
On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 18:57 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:[ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid. I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. again you didn't understand the statement either it's a symbol meaning that if we're not able to make the community that was the most targeted and suffered the most from recent history feel safe, history will repeat again a community of ppl leaves france as they're targeted because they're a community means we fail at protecting communities in our country spanish ppl feel safe in France and won't have to leave why ? are we giving them special treatment ? it's just they're lucky to not bear any stigmate from history what he meant by "i dont care if 100 000 spanish leave france" was that this is impossible and irrealistic and won't happen while 100 000 jews leaving for Israel can very well happen and would be the same as losing 100 000 citizens because of terrible events like in the WWII You're the one who didn't understand their point : it's also a symbol to reaffirm the national unity. A jew dying is a tragic event, but it's first and foremost a french dying, a brother (fraternité), a Citizen : when a french jew is attacked, the muslim community should also feel attacked, which is not the case if you differenciate the two (it's the same process applied with social security or school : creating distinctions eventually lead to distinguished systems, with school and hospitals for jewish and muslim). Putting the jewish community on a pedestale only create friction between communities that feel like the republic is not treating its Citizen equally. I don't know if you are familiar with the Jewish community but the concerns of some/most Jewish in France is precisely that they are not being put on a pedestal, but that the government(s) doesn't care about them and their security, and that non-Jewish French people consider them as non-French. And concerning Valls' sentence I think we shouldn't look too much into it tbh. It feels pretty obvious to me that it was a response to Netanyahu proposing to the Jewish community to come to Israel.
They're effectively put on a pedestal if you look at the discourse. The reality doesn't matter, the political discourse and the symbol is. That the jewish community doesn't believe it is put on a pedestal is another matter : the real problem does not come from the jewish community, but from the poor, excluded, unemployed and oftentime seemingly apolitical "underclass" that view jewish communautarism as an expression of the "racial" inequality they are suffering from.
In this regard, Merah, the Kouachi brothers and Coulibaly are all exemple : young kids who passed in the social aid for kids (aide sociale à l'enfance, A.S.E), school failure, exclusion, small criminality, prison, radicalisation and terrorism. They're the perfect exemple of a process that leads to terrorism and antisemitism, a process that can stop at any step, but that always start with poverty / inequality / familly issues.
|
On January 14 2015 00:50 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? On January 13 2015 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 18:57 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:[ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid. I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. again you didn't understand the statement either it's a symbol meaning that if we're not able to make the community that was the most targeted and suffered the most from recent history feel safe, history will repeat again a community of ppl leaves france as they're targeted because they're a community means we fail at protecting communities in our country spanish ppl feel safe in France and won't have to leave why ? are we giving them special treatment ? it's just they're lucky to not bear any stigmate from history what he meant by "i dont care if 100 000 spanish leave france" was that this is impossible and irrealistic and won't happen while 100 000 jews leaving for Israel can very well happen and would be the same as losing 100 000 citizens because of terrible events like in the WWII You're the one who didn't understand their point : it's also a symbol to reaffirm the national unity. A jew dying is a tragic event, but it's first and foremost a french dying, a brother (fraternité), a Citizen : when a french jew is attacked, the muslim community should also feel attacked, which is not the case if you differenciate the two (it's the same process applied with social security or school : creating distinctions eventually lead to distinguished systems, with school and hospitals for jewish and muslim). Putting the jewish community on a pedestale only create friction between communities that feel like the republic is not treating its Citizen equally. I don't know if you are familiar with the Jewish community but the concerns of some/most Jewish in France is precisely that they are not being put on a pedestal, but that the government(s) doesn't care about them and their security, and that non-Jewish French people consider them as non-French. And concerning Valls' sentence I think we shouldn't look too much into it tbh. It feels pretty obvious to me that it was a response to Netanyahu proposing to the Jewish community to come to Israel. They're effectively put on a pedestal if you look at the discourse. The reality doesn't matter, the political discourse and the symbol is. That the jewish community doesn't believe it is put on a pedestal is another matter : the real problem does not come from the jewish community, but from the poor, excluded, unemployed and oftentime seemingly apolitical "underclass" that view jewish communautarism as an expression of the "racial" inequality they are suffering from. In this regard, Merah, the Kouachi brothers and Coulibaly are all exemple : young kids who passed in the social aide for kids (aide sociale à l'enfance, A.S.E), school failure, exclusion, small criminality, prison, radicalisation and terrorism. They're the perfect exemple of a process that leads to terrorism and antisemitism.
i dont really see the pedestal you talk about anywhere but whatever
maybe there's a special care indeed to a group of people that was decimated 50 years ago and blamed throughout history for about everything you can imagine
ppl hating on jews for erratic reasons don't come from the allegded exposure you talk about but rather from persistant, millenar old myths about how they corrupt society
and that has to be named and shamed and fought with the upmost priority
|
On January 14 2015 00:55 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 00:50 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? On January 13 2015 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 18:57 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:[ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid. I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. again you didn't understand the statement either it's a symbol meaning that if we're not able to make the community that was the most targeted and suffered the most from recent history feel safe, history will repeat again a community of ppl leaves france as they're targeted because they're a community means we fail at protecting communities in our country spanish ppl feel safe in France and won't have to leave why ? are we giving them special treatment ? it's just they're lucky to not bear any stigmate from history what he meant by "i dont care if 100 000 spanish leave france" was that this is impossible and irrealistic and won't happen while 100 000 jews leaving for Israel can very well happen and would be the same as losing 100 000 citizens because of terrible events like in the WWII You're the one who didn't understand their point : it's also a symbol to reaffirm the national unity. A jew dying is a tragic event, but it's first and foremost a french dying, a brother (fraternité), a Citizen : when a french jew is attacked, the muslim community should also feel attacked, which is not the case if you differenciate the two (it's the same process applied with social security or school : creating distinctions eventually lead to distinguished systems, with school and hospitals for jewish and muslim). Putting the jewish community on a pedestale only create friction between communities that feel like the republic is not treating its Citizen equally. I don't know if you are familiar with the Jewish community but the concerns of some/most Jewish in France is precisely that they are not being put on a pedestal, but that the government(s) doesn't care about them and their security, and that non-Jewish French people consider them as non-French. And concerning Valls' sentence I think we shouldn't look too much into it tbh. It feels pretty obvious to me that it was a response to Netanyahu proposing to the Jewish community to come to Israel. They're effectively put on a pedestal if you look at the discourse. The reality doesn't matter, the political discourse and the symbol is. That the jewish community doesn't believe it is put on a pedestal is another matter : the real problem does not come from the jewish community, but from the poor, excluded, unemployed and oftentime seemingly apolitical "underclass" that view jewish communautarism as an expression of the "racial" inequality they are suffering from. In this regard, Merah, the Kouachi brothers and Coulibaly are all exemple : young kids who passed in the social aide for kids (aide sociale à l'enfance, A.S.E), school failure, exclusion, small criminality, prison, radicalisation and terrorism. They're the perfect exemple of a process that leads to terrorism and antisemitism. i dont really see the pedestal you talk about anywhere but whatevermaybe there's a special care indeed to a group of people that was decimated 50 years ago and blamed throughout history for about everything you can imagine ppl hating on jews for erratic reasons don't come from the allegded exposure you talk about but rather from persistant, millenar old myths about how they corrupt society and that has to be named and shamed and fought with the upmost priority
Go anywhere near poor people or muslim people and ask them. Or just watch how the government reacted to the war on Gaza, how everybody is always calling another antisemite, how there's an emission every month on the subject of antisemitism, how Siné got fired from Charlie Hebdo, etc. They're not put on pedestal per say, but it's how a big part of the population sees it, because the media are not treating everything equally.
That the antisemitism come from old myths is a ridiculous idea. People are born in a society, and it's the society that make them. "The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man." The antisemitism of today is also the result of our modern society, it is not engraved in Islam nor is it engrave in Africa's culture.
The 50 yo old past is irrelevant : the immigrant coming from africa are not responsible. It's not part of their history.
|
On January 14 2015 00:59 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 00:55 Boonbag wrote:On January 14 2015 00:50 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? On January 13 2015 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 18:57 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:[ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid. I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. again you didn't understand the statement either it's a symbol meaning that if we're not able to make the community that was the most targeted and suffered the most from recent history feel safe, history will repeat again a community of ppl leaves france as they're targeted because they're a community means we fail at protecting communities in our country spanish ppl feel safe in France and won't have to leave why ? are we giving them special treatment ? it's just they're lucky to not bear any stigmate from history what he meant by "i dont care if 100 000 spanish leave france" was that this is impossible and irrealistic and won't happen while 100 000 jews leaving for Israel can very well happen and would be the same as losing 100 000 citizens because of terrible events like in the WWII You're the one who didn't understand their point : it's also a symbol to reaffirm the national unity. A jew dying is a tragic event, but it's first and foremost a french dying, a brother (fraternité), a Citizen : when a french jew is attacked, the muslim community should also feel attacked, which is not the case if you differenciate the two (it's the same process applied with social security or school : creating distinctions eventually lead to distinguished systems, with school and hospitals for jewish and muslim). Putting the jewish community on a pedestale only create friction between communities that feel like the republic is not treating its Citizen equally. I don't know if you are familiar with the Jewish community but the concerns of some/most Jewish in France is precisely that they are not being put on a pedestal, but that the government(s) doesn't care about them and their security, and that non-Jewish French people consider them as non-French. And concerning Valls' sentence I think we shouldn't look too much into it tbh. It feels pretty obvious to me that it was a response to Netanyahu proposing to the Jewish community to come to Israel. They're effectively put on a pedestal if you look at the discourse. The reality doesn't matter, the political discourse and the symbol is. That the jewish community doesn't believe it is put on a pedestal is another matter : the real problem does not come from the jewish community, but from the poor, excluded, unemployed and oftentime seemingly apolitical "underclass" that view jewish communautarism as an expression of the "racial" inequality they are suffering from. In this regard, Merah, the Kouachi brothers and Coulibaly are all exemple : young kids who passed in the social aide for kids (aide sociale à l'enfance, A.S.E), school failure, exclusion, small criminality, prison, radicalisation and terrorism. They're the perfect exemple of a process that leads to terrorism and antisemitism. i dont really see the pedestal you talk about anywhere but whatevermaybe there's a special care indeed to a group of people that was decimated 50 years ago and blamed throughout history for about everything you can imagine ppl hating on jews for erratic reasons don't come from the allegded exposure you talk about but rather from persistant, millenar old myths about how they corrupt society and that has to be named and shamed and fought with the upmost priority Go anywhere near poor people or muslim people and ask them. Or just watch how the government reacted to the war on Gaza, how everybody is always calling another antisemite, how there's an emission every month on the subject of antisemitism, how Siné got fired from Charlie Hebdo, etc. They're plenty of exemples.
thats because fanatics preach over the internet and in many religious place how poor suburbs ppl are poor because jews are rich
this is nazism 101
the hell youre on about what you say is fucking crazy man
jews are the historical enemies of both other monotheism because they killed a prophet
there's no other origin
|
Why would they deserve "special care" when genocide has occurred before and after the Holocaust? If you were a victim, that is understandable, I suppose. What about the Chinese or the Armenians? Native Americans? Hell, I could do some research and probably find a list of "groups of people" which were subject to atrocities.
Well, at this point I'm just playing devil's advocate to see what your stance is, I don't feel particularly strongly about the issue. I still feel that the Jewish community should not be put above anyone else.
Edit: OK... so now you're calling people Nazis? WhiteDog's point seemed rather reasonable to me.
|
On January 14 2015 01:03 Incognoto wrote:
Why would they deserve "special care" when genocide has occurred before and after the Holocaust? If you were a victim, that is understandable, I suppose. What about the Chinese or the Armenians? Native Americans? Hell, I could do some research and probably find a list of "groups of people" which were subject to atrocities.
Well, at this point I'm just playing devil's advocate to see what your stance is, I don't feel particularly strongly about the issue. I still feel that the Jewish community should not be put above anyone else.
Edit: OK... so now you're calling people Nazis? WhiteDog's point seemed rather reasonable to me.
the very argument of saying "jews are put above others" is 100% antisemitic propaganda but whatever keep going on man...
|
On January 14 2015 01:02 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 00:59 WhiteDog wrote:On January 14 2015 00:55 Boonbag wrote:On January 14 2015 00:50 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:On January 13 2015 23:17 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 23:14 maartendq wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. the statement of the prime minister is still wrong and extremely insulting every french that leave france because of insecurity, jewish or not, should be considered as an inner failure of the republic and historical fact, even if they are true and have to be acknowledged, shouldn't be used this way to make a group of people more important than the rest, because you basically create a profond division into the population everyone should be regarded as the same Netanyahu is a right-wing nationalist that happily pushes aside any piece of international regulation that does not let him do what he wants to Palestinian territory, and gets away with it. I don't know why people expected anything different from him. not only him back then they already wrote a letter to hitler telling him he was right about jews not belonging to germany and that he should send them to israel to wich hitler replied something like "im coming for you next" What? Israel did not exist as a country back in Hitler's times, or am I missing something? On January 13 2015 22:30 WhiteDog wrote:On January 13 2015 18:57 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:55 Makro wrote:[ + Show Spoiler +QUOTE] On January 13 2015 18:27 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 18:19 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 18:03 Boonbag wrote:On January 13 2015 17:27 Incognoto wrote:On January 13 2015 17:15 KingofdaHipHop wrote:On January 13 2015 16:53 Incognoto wrote:Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.” I don't understand this. Why? Are Spaniards not as important or something? Edit: Ok maybe I'm just stupid or something, I don't know, I'm not smart enough to be French, I guess? Why is the hostage situation in the market an attack towards Jewish people rather than France? Antisemitism is obviously on the rise but that's not the only form of intolerance which is gaining ground in France, so why on earth are we so quick to suck up to the Jewish? Because an attack on a Kosher Supermarket is an attack on Jewish people. People were shopping for food for Shabbat dinner most likely and the fact that Coulibaly targeted this market in particular says that he was targeting Jews. Of course antisemitism isn't the only form of intolerance out there, this was also an attack on the French people. But saying that this isn't an act of antisemitism, in my eyes, is pretending that the problem isn't there and that people would rather focus on this as just an attack on France, which it is, and not on the fact that this is also an attack on the Jews of France. ahh I see this is why the rest of us inferior french (french french, muslim french, spanish french) can leave the country and the prime minister won't give a shit maybe you miss the point wich was a reference to WWII and the fact we didn't protect the jewish community from beeing deported to nazi camps also, the terrorists targets were certainly not aimed at "french people" like you tend to think but symbols : media - police forces - jews that's basically everything people like Dieudonné bash all day long and what young marginal poor people in the suburbs see as the evil incarnate so yeah as you said you must be pretty stupid. I don't have a problem with Jewish people at all, sorry. Rather I'd like to keep things real, you can privilege one community over another. Jewish people do indeed have their problems but then again, so do a LOT of other minorities in France. So yeah, antisemitism is bad then again so is racism, homophobia and a lot of other things. For the prime minister to blatantly say "I don't care if 100k Spaniards leave but I'll be sad if 100k Jewish people do" does indeed annoy me. I am the last person in France to shit on police forces as well, I have a lot of respect for them actually. I don't spout the "CRS SS" nonsense that so many young people like to do. Nor do I have a problem with Jewish people, as I said before. Nor do I have a problem with Muslims. However I will say that the situation of Israel - Palestine is fucked up. I do have a problem with media, they always give an incomplete picture or biased view. True journalism in France is hard to find, i.e. medias don't just straight up report facts, they present what they want in the light that they want. I view Marine Le Pen as a pig who learned how to talk for instance, yet I am still very annoyed that we don't get to hear her views in a completely impartial manner (e.g. Ruth Elkrief vs Marine Le Pen). Dieudonné gets censored because he says things which are politically incorrect (afaik? I don't know what he talks about, nor do I particularly care). Zemmour is considered trash in France as well but then again how can you consider someone trash when you refuse to listen what he has to say? If it it's not "politically correct" then you aren't allowed to express your views. You even hear people say "I don't read Le Figaro" or "I don't read Le Monde", which blows my fucking mind. Why would you cherry pick the way you obtain your information and the way its presented to you? Are you too stupid to judge things for yourself? Do you need "journalism" to present the information in a way that reflects your political views? Let's be fucking real here, true journalism is as close to impartial as you can get and that is NOT what most French media is. mass medias are commercial entities that earn money over ad and audience also the two journals you mentionned are "opinion press" meaning they present to their audience a point of view over the facts and an interpretation of those, and certainly not "straight facts" as you tend to think if you want pure straight facts just use press agencies as a source of information that way you won't feel it "biaised" as to the jewish community reference you still don't get what the prime minister said he basically says that if 100 000 jewish ppl migrate to israel because they feel insecure in france, that will mean history repeats itself again and that the french gov will again have failed at protecting them like they failed times and times again in the past French gov has a very specific history towards jewish community - Dreyfus case, mass deportation. Keep in mind french gov in WWII willingly offered help to the nazis to find, arrest and send jews to camp without even Hitler having to ask for it, as it was considered an act of good faith back then towards the nazi gov. I wont even comment on the Marine Lepen can't express herself shit, as if you just google it, you'll prolly find TV airing numbers and see she's basically the political person that is going the most on TV and radio since the past two years. Zemmour is considered trash for a very good reason - hes part of a category of showman pretending to be an intellectual while beeing in fact a very uneducated fraud if you want to listen to smart, intelligent ppl, you have plenty of those on the radio like on France Culture Zemmour is the no1 best selling author in france since mid october or something, alongside the ex wife of the current president. So saying nobody listens to him is a bit far streched to say the least. The problem is people need to go fucking educate theirselves and stop listening to people spreading non sense and falsifying history to make editorial money. again you didn't understand the statement either it's a symbol meaning that if we're not able to make the community that was the most targeted and suffered the most from recent history feel safe, history will repeat again a community of ppl leaves france as they're targeted because they're a community means we fail at protecting communities in our country spanish ppl feel safe in France and won't have to leave why ? are we giving them special treatment ? it's just they're lucky to not bear any stigmate from history what he meant by "i dont care if 100 000 spanish leave france" was that this is impossible and irrealistic and won't happen while 100 000 jews leaving for Israel can very well happen and would be the same as losing 100 000 citizens because of terrible events like in the WWII You're the one who didn't understand their point : it's also a symbol to reaffirm the national unity. A jew dying is a tragic event, but it's first and foremost a french dying, a brother (fraternité), a Citizen : when a french jew is attacked, the muslim community should also feel attacked, which is not the case if you differenciate the two (it's the same process applied with social security or school : creating distinctions eventually lead to distinguished systems, with school and hospitals for jewish and muslim). Putting the jewish community on a pedestale only create friction between communities that feel like the republic is not treating its Citizen equally. I don't know if you are familiar with the Jewish community but the concerns of some/most Jewish in France is precisely that they are not being put on a pedestal, but that the government(s) doesn't care about them and their security, and that non-Jewish French people consider them as non-French. And concerning Valls' sentence I think we shouldn't look too much into it tbh. It feels pretty obvious to me that it was a response to Netanyahu proposing to the Jewish community to come to Israel. They're effectively put on a pedestal if you look at the discourse. The reality doesn't matter, the political discourse and the symbol is. That the jewish community doesn't believe it is put on a pedestal is another matter : the real problem does not come from the jewish community, but from the poor, excluded, unemployed and oftentime seemingly apolitical "underclass" that view jewish communautarism as an expression of the "racial" inequality they are suffering from. In this regard, Merah, the Kouachi brothers and Coulibaly are all exemple : young kids who passed in the social aide for kids (aide sociale à l'enfance, A.S.E), school failure, exclusion, small criminality, prison, radicalisation and terrorism. They're the perfect exemple of a process that leads to terrorism and antisemitism. i dont really see the pedestal you talk about anywhere but whatevermaybe there's a special care indeed to a group of people that was decimated 50 years ago and blamed throughout history for about everything you can imagine ppl hating on jews for erratic reasons don't come from the allegded exposure you talk about but rather from persistant, millenar old myths about how they corrupt society and that has to be named and shamed and fought with the upmost priority Go anywhere near poor people or muslim people and ask them. Or just watch how the government reacted to the war on Gaza, how everybody is always calling another antisemite, how there's an emission every month on the subject of antisemitism, how Siné got fired from Charlie Hebdo, etc. They're plenty of exemples. thats because fanatics preach over the internet and in many religious place how poor suburbs ppl are poor because jews are richthis is nazism 101 the hell youre on about what you say is fucking crazy man jews are the historical enemies of both other monotheism because they killed a prophet there's no other origin
Those preaching would not have any weight if it were not based around the beliefs of some, beliefs built through their own experience and feeling.
On January 14 2015 01:07 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2015 01:03 Incognoto wrote:
Why would they deserve "special care" when genocide has occurred before and after the Holocaust? If you were a victim, that is understandable, I suppose. What about the Chinese or the Armenians? Native Americans? Hell, I could do some research and probably find a list of "groups of people" which were subject to atrocities.
Well, at this point I'm just playing devil's advocate to see what your stance is, I don't feel particularly strongly about the issue. I still feel that the Jewish community should not be put above anyone else.
Edit: OK... so now you're calling people Nazis? WhiteDog's point seemed rather reasonable to me. the very argument of saying "jews are put above others" is 100% antisemitic propaganda but whatever keep going on man...
That's not what I said by the way. My guess is you've never been anywhere near a poor neighborhood.
Here is what I said :
They're not put on pedestal per say, but it's how a big part of the population sees it, because the media are not treating everything equally.
They're effectively put on a pedestal if you look at the discourse. The reality doesn't matter
Means I'm not talking about reality but representations and discourse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
