|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On April 08 2017 04:50 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +
Fuck yeah! Only trolls disagree, the EU is great and amazing and awesome and no sane person would oppose it!
Exactly. Only trolls, uneducated and aggressive people (e.g. Hitler) would want the EU to be disbanded. No other guy would want the EU to be gone because it serves a few purposes very well - free trade, freedom of movement and peace.
Got it. Opposing the EU makes you either stupid or just like Hitler.
Since I doubt that too many of the people who currently oppose the EU within the EU are trolls, what proportion of them do you think are stupid, and what proportion of the latter kind? There's quite a lot of them these days...
|
Another truck attack. In Sweden this time.
I used to say to my caulege at work whos anti migrant/muslim etc.
"Look Sweden is doing it right, no attacks there"
f u terrotists! No Sweden card in my in my sleeve, anymore.
|
Well, if the EU politicians stop accepting refugees and muslims, we'll live in a safer place. Unfortunately, they don't understand that islam and European values don't fit together. E.g. women's rights, religious fanatics, etc. If islam is peaceful, why are there murders all the time in the Middle East?
|
On April 08 2017 04:50 Shield wrote:
Exactly. Only trolls, uneducated and aggressive people (e.g. Hitler) would want the EU to be disbanded. No other guy would want the EU to be gone because it serves a few purposes very well - free trade, freedom of movement and peace.
On April 08 2017 03:56 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2017 02:35 Velr wrote:
Exactly, bringing up swiss independence is just dishonest. In nearly all measurable ways we either allready follow EU rules (or stricter, self imposed) or will have to soon if we don't want to shatter our economy (which is as much about banks as germanies).
The UK is much bigger/more powerfull but still way too small to have any kind of real leverage in the long run. Independence to a large degree is just a fashion label.
You cannot reason with people this far gone.
|
Agreed, we can't reason with people like you. Freedom of movement, free trade and peace. What's bad about that? I'm sure you can come up with random crap, but I'm not really interested before you acknowledge these achievements.
|
You can reason with Nyxisto, you just have to filter his words through some "leftist to common speech" converter and his posts will look reasonable. I'm not trying to insult him, I'm aware "leftist" looks like an insult in my posts but I couldn't come up with a better label. My point is that he's so far on the left that his political language is hard to understand to some people on the right.
To be clear, not saying it's impossible to reason with Shield.
|
On April 08 2017 06:07 Shield wrote:
Well, if the EU politicians stop accepting refugees and muslims, we'll live in a safer place. Unfortunately, they don't understand that islam and European values don't fit together. E.g. women's rights, religious fanatics, etc.
So many things wrong. I can already tell you don't have any Muslim friend or coworker, not even customers. The truth is the vast majority is silent, they just endure daily racism and try their best to adapt. They're not at home in Europe but they're not at home in their (grand)parent's country either. It's a tough spot to be in, yet they keep trying and lot of them succeed in fact but barely in the important jobs. They're represented decently in sports or entertainments but not in other very visible fields. Why those people who showed they can be on par with us in many fields can't get responsabilities? It's obviously because of racism. Don't get me wrong, our societies are the pinnacle of tolerane in human hustory but yet it's harder for a brown skinned person to climb the ladder unless they show expectional abilities.
I think you don't know how hard it is to see your own parent being looked down on, having to do papers for them because you read better than them whereas you're just eight years old. How would you react in this case? I know I would be rebellious.
From my personal experience, one of my closest friend is Muslim, more than twenty years old friendship. I also had a lot of great parties drinking and chatting girls with Muslims. I've had a lot of great Muslim coworkers. When you're telling me things like this, you're insulting all those great people I've met. This cosmopolitan society is a blessing, I'm living in the countryside because I don't like towns but it's truly the aspect I'm missing the most, having people coming from all over the planet. Besides Muslims are far from being the only ones struggling, black Christians are having a hard time too.
|
On April 08 2017 06:07 Shield wrote:
Well, if the EU politicians stop accepting refugees and muslims, we'll live in a safer place. Unfortunately, they don't understand that islam and European values don't fit together. E.g. women's rights, religious fanatics, etc. If islam is peaceful, why are there murders all the time in the Middle East?
Open any decent history book and you will find out why...
|
On April 08 2017 06:34 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2017 06:07 Shield wrote:
Well, if the EU politicians stop accepting refugees and muslims, we'll live in a safer place. Unfortunately, they don't understand that islam and European values don't fit together. E.g. women's rights, religious fanatics, etc. So many things wrong. I can already tell you don't have any Muslim friend or coworker, not even customers. The truth is the vast majority is silent, they just endure daily racism and try their best to adapt. They're not at home in Europe but they're not at home in their (grand)parent's country either. It's a tough spot to be in, yet they keep trying and lot of them succeed in fact but barely in the important jobs. They're represented decently in sports or entertainments but not in other very visible fields. Why those people who showed they can be on par with us in many fields can't get responsabilities? It's obviously because of racism. Don't get me wrong, our societies are the pinnacle of tolerane in human hustory but yet it's harder for a brown skinned person to climb the ladder unless they show expectional abilities. I think you don't know how hard it is to see your own parent being looked down on, having to do papers for them because you read better than them whereas you're just eight years old. How would you react in this case? I know I would be rebellious. From my personal experience, one of my closest friend is Muslim, more than twenty years old friendship. I also had a lot of great parties drinking and chatting girls with Muslims. I've had a lot of great Muslim coworkers. When you're telling me things like this, you're insulting all those great people I've met. This cosmopolitan society is a blessing, I'm living in the countryside because I don't like towns but it's truly the aspect I'm missing the most, having people coming from all over the planet. Besides Muslims are far from being the only ones struggling, black Christians are having a hard time too.
When did islam become a race so people are racists when they don't like it?
When was islam ever considered to be peaceful? Check the Middle East. Check Germany, France, Belgium and now Sweden.
There could be good muslims, but I don't think the good ones are those who force their women to hide their face and who kill in the name of "god". If there is a god, then god must have created life. Why would god tell them to take it away? Why do you allow such people in Europe? It's not in European values (not in the last 100 years at least) to kill for religion.
On April 08 2017 06:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2017 06:07 Shield wrote:
Well, if the EU politicians stop accepting refugees and muslims, we'll live in a safer place. Unfortunately, they don't understand that islam and European values don't fit together. E.g. women's rights, religious fanatics, etc. If islam is peaceful, why are there murders all the time in the Middle East? Open any decent history book and you will find out why...
It was a rhetorical question. It's all because of their religion that they decide to kill.
Edit: If you ask me about good muslims, the only good ones I can point out are Turkish people (except recent change in behaviour, but I won't comment on that now).
User was warned for this post
|
Did you even read? It's a minority of assholes, the same minority of pricks you belong to : the intolerants. You're like this minority you despise, you're one.
User was warned for this post
|
Islam is a really old religion and was creating the foundation for modern mathematics while Europe was still figuring out how to not starve. Their religion doesn't really push them to kill any more the Christianity. Now the culture of some Islamic countries and groups do promote violence and justify it through religion. But it isn't like there is a shortage of stories about Catholic terrorist in EU history.
|
On April 08 2017 06:40 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2017 06:34 nojok wrote:On April 08 2017 06:07 Shield wrote:
Well, if the EU politicians stop accepting refugees and muslims, we'll live in a safer place. Unfortunately, they don't understand that islam and European values don't fit together. E.g. women's rights, religious fanatics, etc. So many things wrong. I can already tell you don't have any Muslim friend or coworker, not even customers. The truth is the vast majority is silent, they just endure daily racism and try their best to adapt. They're not at home in Europe but they're not at home in their (grand)parent's country either. It's a tough spot to be in, yet they keep trying and lot of them succeed in fact but barely in the important jobs. They're represented decently in sports or entertainments but not in other very visible fields. Why those people who showed they can be on par with us in many fields can't get responsabilities? It's obviously because of racism. Don't get me wrong, our societies are the pinnacle of tolerane in human hustory but yet it's harder for a brown skinned person to climb the ladder unless they show expectional abilities. I think you don't know how hard it is to see your own parent being looked down on, having to do papers for them because you read better than them whereas you're just eight years old. How would you react in this case? I know I would be rebellious. From my personal experience, one of my closest friend is Muslim, more than twenty years old friendship. I also had a lot of great parties drinking and chatting girls with Muslims. I've had a lot of great Muslim coworkers. When you're telling me things like this, you're insulting all those great people I've met. This cosmopolitan society is a blessing, I'm living in the countryside because I don't like towns but it's truly the aspect I'm missing the most, having people coming from all over the planet. Besides Muslims are far from being the only ones struggling, black Christians are having a hard time too. When did islam become a race so people are racists when they don't like it? When was islam ever considered to be peaceful? Check the Middle East. Check Germany, France, Belgium and now Sweden. There could be good muslims, but I don't think the good ones are those who force their women to hide their face and who kill in the name of "god". If there is a god, then god must have created life. Why would god tell them to take it away? Why do you allow such people in Europe? It's not in European values (not in the last 100 years at least) to kill for religion.
No, we only kill for nationalism or ideology, but NOT for religion!
Seriously though, the people you describe are a small minority among muslims in europe. You could similarly argue that you shouldn't allow christians because they lynch black people and burn crosses in their yards. Or that you shouldn't have atheists because they starve their opponents to death in gulags.
Stop judging a large amount of people through a distorted lense based only on what you perceive them to be without actually having a lot of contact to them. I have met quite a few muslims here in Germany. None of them were killing anyone in the name of god, or in the name of anything else. As far as i could tell, none of them forced "their" women to hide their faces, though some of the muslim women chose to hide their faces.
Show nested quote +On April 08 2017 06:39 TheDwf wrote:On April 08 2017 06:07 Shield wrote:
Well, if the EU politicians stop accepting refugees and muslims, we'll live in a safer place. Unfortunately, they don't understand that islam and European values don't fit together. E.g. women's rights, religious fanatics, etc. If islam is peaceful, why are there murders all the time in the Middle East? Open any decent history book and you will find out why... It was a rhetorical question. It's all because of their religion that they decide to kill.
You should really take the advice given to you. Read a decent history book. Or google "history of the middle east". Or anything like that. You would need to accept that you don't already know the answer to everything before that, though. I think that is going to be the hard part.
|
The US has a long and active history of Christian terrorists and violence. In many ways, it is ongoing.
|
Instead of going down this rabbit whole of theology discussion and "who's the real baddie" people should just stop adjusting their political believes based on temporary events. The whole point of terrorism is to force people into political responses they wouldn't otherwise take so .... don't buy into it
|
On April 08 2017 00:14 LegalLord wrote:It's a good thing that unlike a random union of countries, this magical thing called a NATION STATE doesn't fall apart that easily  .
You have to be a meme legallord, Russia is hardly a stable country. Putin is not immortal and he can't be the strongman president forever.
Russia nearly collapsed during the Ruble crisis, and unless Putin appoints someone who behaves exactly like him, the transfer of power can be just as destabilizing. He is more of a dictator than a president.
Thats not even getting into the cultural differences between Russians in say... Grozny vs Moscow vs Krasnoyarsk.
Or that Siberian cities are effectively subsidized by the west part of Russia.
Ive been reading your posts for a while and you dickride Russia a bit too much. This was my breaking point. The country is not a utopia. A bastion of safety.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Of all the Muslims I've met, I can say this much: the majority are not terrible people, and like with almost all other identity classifications of interest, most people want simply to live their lives in peace and be able to pay the bills. However, it's hard not to see the tendencies in them that enable extremism to thrive, in their Western home or in their MidEast home. And it's not just the same old "every group has its bad apples" problem either. Christians generally don't support the Ku Klux Klan or any other similar religiously-guided extremist group of their own religion. Whereas if you really dig into it, Muslims will generally admit an attitude that is worryingly sympathetic towards terrorism in the name of Islam.
Furthermore, refugees are the type of people who are ripe for being radicalized. They left their home hardly out of any ideological reason; most of them have little problem with the run-of-the-mill Islam-derivative law ("Sharia law"). They have no particular desire to be Westerners; they just want to flee war and if Germany is offering money as well, why not? But whereas the first generation, barring terrorists who just take advantage of the opportunity to cross the border, will generally merely be troublesome in a Western society (e.g. crime), second-generation refugees have little of the same memory of the troubles of war yet all of the backwards teachings that might compel them towards radicalization. It should not be a surprise that this happens - the only reason it is is because we live in a world where it's important to blatantly deny the existence of race/religion-related problems because it's "racist" to acknowledge them.
And, incidentally, attitudes towards this are one example of the major differences between the West Europeans and the more Eastern ones.
|
On April 08 2017 06:58 Nyxisto wrote:
Instead of going down this rabbit whole of theology discussion and "who's the real baddie" people should just stop adjusting their political believes based on temporary events. The whole point of terrorism is to force people into political responses they wouldn't otherwise take so .... don't buy into it
Well, yes, that would be ideal. But people are bad at statistics, so when something is prominent in the media, they feel that it is happening a lot, while stuff that is not prominent in the media does not feel as problematic.
On terrorist kills 10 people three countries over? HORRIFIC! Change all the things! This must never happen again!!!
Sleepy truck drivers kill hundreds of people and injure thousands? Meh.
|
On April 08 2017 06:53 Plansix wrote:
Islam is a really old religion and was creating the foundation for modern mathematics while Europe was still figuring out how to not starve. Their religion doesn't really push them to kill any more the Christianity. Now the culture of some Islamic countries and groups do promote violence and justify it through religion. But it isn't like there is a shortage of stories about Catholic terrorist in EU history.
Islam is a very young religion and if you were to compare the intellectual contributions of Christian nations to Islamic nations they would be on another scale entirely. Also, Islam does sanction killing much more explicitly than Christianity, both in its scriptures and in its institutions.
By all means defend Islam, but do so honestly if you don't want to further embed people's misgivings.
|
On April 08 2017 07:02 LegalLord wrote:
Of all the Muslims I've met, I can say this much: the majority are not terrible people, and like with almost all other identity classifications of interest, most people want simply to live their lives in peace and be able to pay the bills. However, it's hard not to see the tendencies in them that enable extremism to thrive, in their Western home or in their MidEast home. And it's not just the same old "every group has its bad apples" problem either. Christians generally don't support the Ku Klux Klan or any other similar religiously-guided extremist group of their own religion. Whereas if you really dig into it, Muslims will generally admit an attitude that is worryingly sympathetic towards terrorism in the name of Islam.
Furthermore, refugees are the type of people who are ripe for being radicalized. They left their home hardly out of any ideological reason; most of them have little problem with the run-of-the-mill Islam-derivative law ("Sharia law"). They have no particular desire to be Westerners; they just want to flee war and if Germany is offering money as well, why not? But whereas the first generation, barring terrorists who just take advantage of the opportunity to cross the border, will generally merely be troublesome in a Western society (e.g. crime), second-generation refugees have little of the same memory of the troubles of war yet all of the backwards teachings that might compel them towards radicalization. It should not be a surprise that this happens - the only reason it is is because we live in a world where it's important to blatantly deny the existence of race/religion-related problems because it's "racist" to acknowledge them.
And, incidentally, attitudes towards this are one example of the major differences between the West Europeans and the more Eastern ones.
This right here is the well reasoned way to present some polite xenophobia. And then you preempt the counter argument by a little racism based martyring. "People will call me racist for saying this, but its the truth".
Then you move right into the "refugees are ripe to be radicalized" by providing some dubious claim about them and where they came from. You talk about some Sharia Law based on a garbage understanding of it and again provide zero evidence(Syria wasn't under some terrible version of Sharia law, ISIS is sort of a frat boy nightmare version of Islam).
Take notes people, this is how you make arguments that 1.5 billion people are terrorists or support terrorism based on nothing. Not through yelling, but by slow attrition making unfounded claim after unfounded claim that sound sort of true.
|
On April 08 2017 07:08 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2017 06:53 Plansix wrote:
Islam is a really old religion and was creating the foundation for modern mathematics while Europe was still figuring out how to not starve. Their religion doesn't really push them to kill any more the Christianity. Now the culture of some Islamic countries and groups do promote violence and justify it through religion. But it isn't like there is a shortage of stories about Catholic terrorist in EU history. Islam is a very young religion and if you were to compare the intellectual contributions of Christian nations to Islamic nations they would be on another scale entirely. Also, Islam does sanction killing much more explicitly than Christianity, both in its scriptures and in its institutions. By all means defend Islam, but do so honestly if you don't want to further embed people's misgivings.
Well Europe cheated and went through the enlightenment and reformation. You all created the nationalism, the concept of secularism and then the Ottoman Empire sort of ended before all that stuff could come over. Sadly, the Middle East never really got deep into the whole nation of people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
