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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 31 2016 06:47 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2016 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote:On July 31 2016 06:37 WhiteDog wrote:
"Russia had already invaded Ukraine annexed Crimea when Breedlove made those statements." Russia invaded the Crimea. And annexed it in march 2014. The mails are about what came after, specifically in eastern Ukraine.
Russia successfully invading Ukraine in two different places might be considered powerful evidence that Ukraine needed weapons. If you're a Ukrainian, or have come to the conclusion that pissing Russia off by giving Eastern Europe weapons is not as bad as letting Russia think Eastern Europe is its all you can eat buffet again. If you do think not pissing Russia off is more important, its powerful evidence that you shouldn't piss Russia off.
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Ukraine lost to civilian volunteers who stole Ukrainian weapons from weapon reserves. With minor support that has been severely exaggerated. Ukrainian army had all manners of logistics problems and corruption that meant that it got slaughtered by something that any even somewhat competent army would easily be able to take care of. They lost when Ukraine decided to fight a PR war, and made lots of progress in a few days (with heavy losses) until there was little fighting power left. Then they got pushed back and agreed to Minsk I.
Sure, you could send weapons. Or troops. We could play the game of escalation all the way until the situation becomes far worse than it would be with a wee bit of common sense. Instead of being in a limited civil war, Ukraine could be a smoking crater.
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Lets not have another Ukraine thread...
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On July 31 2016 06:55 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Russia successfully invading Ukraine in two different places might be considered powerful evidence that Ukraine needed weapons. If you're a Ukrainian, or have come to the conclusion that pissing Russia off by giving Eastern Europe weapons is not as bad as letting Russia think Eastern Europe is its all you can eat buffet again. If you do think not pissing Russia off is more important, its powerful evidence that you shouldn't piss Russia off. What good does keeping up the illusion of power do, when everybody involved knows it's futile?
It's like Trump's wall, useless but still mighty 'attractive' to delusional people.
It is not about 'standing up to Russia' or 'not pissing them off', for whatever that even means. It is about not escalating a regional conflict into an open war.
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Indeed. Let's leave it at just that one remark.
So, any more details about the leak itself? Who leaked, and from what source? And why do people still write stupid stuff in emails without realizing they might get leaked?
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On July 31 2016 07:10 LegalLord wrote:
Indeed. Let's leave it at just that one remark.
So, any more details about the leak itself? Who leaked, and from what source? And why do people still write stupid stuff in emails without realizing they might get leaked?
Apparently they are hacked emails leaked by the site "DCLeaks".
DCleaks is a new level project aimed to analyze and publish a large amount of emails from top-ranking officials and their influence agents all over the world.
The project was launched by the American hacktivists who respect and appreciate freedom of speech, human rights and government of the people. We believe that our politicians have forgotten that in a democracy the people are the highest form of political authority so our citizens have the right to participate in governing our nation. The authorities are just lobbying interests of Wall Street fat cats, industrial barons and multinational corporations’ representatives who swallow up all resources and subjugate all markets.
We believe U.S. citizens have the right to know how domestic and foreign policies of the United States are shaped and who the real policy maker is.
Our aim is to find out and tell you the truth about U.S. decision-making process as well as about the key elements of American political life.
There are no borders or censorship for DCleaks. We are open for cooperation and ready to get valuable information, check its validity and to make it available to the public.
http://dcleaks.com/index.php/about/
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On July 31 2016 07:10 LegalLord wrote:
Indeed. Let's leave it at just that one remark.
So, any more details about the leak itself? Who leaked, and from what source? And why do people still write stupid stuff in emails without realizing they might get leaked?
considering it mentions the Secretary of State I assume it comes from the Clinton email leak.
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France’s prime minister has said he would consider a temporary ban on the foreign financing of mosques, urging a “new model” for relations with Islam after a spate of jihadi attacks.
Manuel Valls, under fire for perceived security lapses around the attacks, also admitted to a failure by the authorities after it was revealed that one of the jihadis who stormed a church and killed a priest on Tuesday had been released with an electronic tag pending trial.
In an interview with French newspaper Le Monde, Valls said he was “open to the idea that – for a period yet to be determined – there should be no financing from abroad for the construction of mosques”.
The prime minister also called for imams to be “trained in France, not elsewhere”.
He said the interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, whose portfolio also includes religious affairs, was working on building a new model for France’s relations with Islam.
Both Valls and Cazeneuve have faced calls to resign after the second jihadi attack in less than a fortnight raised questions over France’s vigilance and preparedness.
The government has faced tough questions since it emerged that both church attackers had been on the radar of intelligence services and had tried to go to Syria.
Sparking particular anger was the revelation that one of the assailants, 19-year-old Adel Kermiche, had been released from prison while awaiting trial on terror charges after his second attempt to travel to Syria.
Source
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On July 31 2016 07:22 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +France’s prime minister has said he would consider a temporary ban on the foreign financing of mosques, urging a “new model” for relations with Islam after a spate of jihadi attacks.
Manuel Valls, under fire for perceived security lapses around the attacks, also admitted to a failure by the authorities after it was revealed that one of the jihadis who stormed a church and killed a priest on Tuesday had been released with an electronic tag pending trial.
In an interview with French newspaper Le Monde, Valls said he was “open to the idea that – for a period yet to be determined – there should be no financing from abroad for the construction of mosques”.
The prime minister also called for imams to be “trained in France, not elsewhere”.
He said the interior minister, Bernard Cazeneuve, whose portfolio also includes religious affairs, was working on building a new model for France’s relations with Islam.
Both Valls and Cazeneuve have faced calls to resign after the second jihadi attack in less than a fortnight raised questions over France’s vigilance and preparedness.
The government has faced tough questions since it emerged that both church attackers had been on the radar of intelligence services and had tried to go to Syria.
Sparking particular anger was the revelation that one of the assailants, 19-year-old Adel Kermiche, had been released from prison while awaiting trial on terror charges after his second attempt to travel to Syria. Source
It will be a very difficult move, because, under our law of "laïcité" (separation of the state and the church), the state is not allowed to help financing religions (even if they still do that at the margin, by giving land for 1 symbolic € and such) - it does not even recognise the existence of any cult. So it will be very hard for muslims to find the necessary financing without any kind of foreign investment (to build mosque and all that).
Still, it is a very good move to me, because some foreign Imams directly came from the middle age. It's France, it shouldn't be alright to openly argue that you can beat your wife and stay in paid as an imam.
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Isn't he the guy who said France will just have to learn to live with terrorism?
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On July 31 2016 07:57 LegalLord wrote:
Isn't he the guy who said France will just have to learn to live with terrorism?
Yeah (Manuel Valls, an authoritarian idiot). He is doing that because they are under huge criticism from the right (who are as incompetent as he is, a brilliant bunch).
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well you can read about Turkeys plan on mosque building http://theblacksea.eu/index.php?idT=88&idC=88&idRec=1211&recType=story Turkey is spending hundreds of millions of Euro on plans to build over 30 mega-mosque projects across five continents, arguing it is offering Muslims new places to pray.
But many critics believe Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is constructing palaces to his power using his own people's money in bizarre and irrelevant locations.
Some of these hypermarket-sized mosques are set for urban centres with a Muslim majority, such as Tirana and Istanbul, but others target capitals where Muslims number only a few thousand, such as Bucharest, Havana and Budapest. ...Turkey is rivalling the mosque diplomacy enacted by Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States in the last two decades, where the oil-rich countries renovated and constructed mosques around the world, as a means to seek political influence.
But these countries mostly follow an ultraconservative Wahhabist doctrine, which grew dynamically since the 1970s, after the tapping of the Arabian peninsula’s oil reserves showered the countries with wealth.
Turkey sees a gap in the market for its “mild” brand of Sunni Islam, which includes women-friendly mosques and an intolerance of extremist rhetoric. ...But while critics accuse Erdogan of neo-Ottomanism, Turkey seems conscious of the mixed reaction from nation states to its imperial past when soliciting locations for mega-mosques.
The Black Sea's research shows that no giant mosques are planned for European countries who have a major historic beef with the Ottomans, such as Armenia, Greece or Austria - nor in the larger Arab nations that were part of its former Empire.
Turkey is also planning mega-mosques in nearly all major European countries - except the Catholic ones.
None are yet planned for Italy, Poland, Croatia, Slovakia, Austria, France, Belgium, Portugal or Spain.
All the countries in Europe marked by a mosque on this map are either Orthodox or Protestant in their key religion. Only in Hungary - 37 per cent Catholic - is a mosque planned, but Budapest has yet to agree a location for its mega-mosque.
Tensions between the Catholics and the Ottomans stretch back six centuries, and culminated in a Papal War against the Ottomans which ended outside Vienna in 1683.
The only Catholic countries where Turkey is planning mosques - Haiti, Cuba and Philippines - are those furthest from Rome.
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Happening just now
Thousands of pro-Erdogan protesters to rally in Cologne
Extra police have been deployed in the western German city Cologne ahead of a protest that's expected to draw up to 30,000 supporters of Turkish President Erdogan. Several counter-demonstrations have also been planned.
Authorities said some 2,700 officers, including Turkish speakers, would be stationed in the city center to head off any clashes between opposing groups.
"One thing I want to make clear is that we will intervene against any kind of violence quickly, decisively and forcefully," Cologne's police chief Jürgen Mathies said.
The Union of European-Turkish Democrats (UETD) called Sunday's demonstration to protest against a failed coup, staged by a section of Turkey's military on July 15, that left more than 250 people dead.
The attempted putsch has stoked tensions between supporters and opponents of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan within Germany's three-million strong Turkish community.
Calls for calm
As well as the tens of thousands of pro-Erdogan protesters taking to the streets Sunday, police were bracing for at least four counter-demonstrations, expected to attract 1,500 people each. A bid by police to prevent a far-right group from participating was rejected by a court in Münster late Saturday.
According to the UETD, representatives from different Turkish political parties, including the opposition, were scheduled to speak at the rally. Organizers had also wanted to carry a live-stream video feed of Erdogan speaking from Turkey, but the head of a police issued a ban on such a broadcast, citing concerns it could cause the crowd to become overexcited.
In the leadup to the event, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier urged demonstrators to display moderation.
"It is not right to bring Turkey's domestic political tensions here ... and intimidate people who have other political convictions," he told the Saturday edition of the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" newspaper.
The leader of the German Greens, Cem Özdemir, also criticized alleged attempts at intimidation ahead of the demonstration, telling newspapers of the Funke media group that critics of President Erdogan among Germany's Turkish community were being targeted.
"An atmosphere of fear must not be created," he said.
Gokay Sofuoglu, the chairman of the Turkish community in Germany, said families were being torn apart by conflicting loyalties. Ahead of Sunday's planned protest, he said, "I can only call for moderation."
Continued crackdown
Erdogan's government has detained thousands of officials in the military, judiciary, media and civil service in the wake of the July 15 coup attempt, which it blames on US-based cleric Fethullah Gulen.
Western leaders have voiced alarm over the purges, and Erdogan's critics fear he's using the coup as an excuse to consolidate his already tight grip on power.
Ahead of Sunday's march, Erdogan told foreign governments to keep out of Turkish affairs and "mind your own business."
http://www.dw.com/en/thousands-of-pro-erdogan-protesters-to-rally-in-cologne/a-19439669
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A young black guy named Adama Traore died in the north of Paris after being apprehended by the police. Now, since people love to victimize themselves, there's a ton of people that argue that he was the victim of some american-like event and that the police basically killed him because he was black.
They organized a few march and chanted the "black lives matter" in english.
According to the two autopsies that were made he was not beaten nor was he shot and was killed by "asphyxia", one of those atopsy claiming that he had a grave pulmonary infection while the second autopsy arguing that we need the result of blood tests and such that will come in august.
The guy was arrested for rebellion because he refused the police to arrest his brother, researched for "extortion".
Now the New York times relay this as "Black lives matter in France too" : http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/29/opinion/black-lives-matter-in-france-too.html
Shit is ridiculous, makes me laugh. This is not the US.
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On July 31 2016 18:46 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Happening just now Show nested quote +Thousands of pro-Erdogan protesters to rally in Cologne
Extra police have been deployed in the western German city Cologne ahead of a protest that's expected to draw up to 30,000 supporters of Turkish President Erdogan. Several counter-demonstrations have also been planned.
Authorities said some 2,700 officers, including Turkish speakers, would be stationed in the city center to head off any clashes between opposing groups.
"One thing I want to make clear is that we will intervene against any kind of violence quickly, decisively and forcefully," Cologne's police chief Jürgen Mathies said.
The Union of European-Turkish Democrats (UETD) called Sunday's demonstration to protest against a failed coup, staged by a section of Turkey's military on July 15, that left more than 250 people dead.
The attempted putsch has stoked tensions between supporters and opponents of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan within Germany's three-million strong Turkish community.
Calls for calm
As well as the tens of thousands of pro-Erdogan protesters taking to the streets Sunday, police were bracing for at least four counter-demonstrations, expected to attract 1,500 people each. A bid by police to prevent a far-right group from participating was rejected by a court in Münster late Saturday.
According to the UETD, representatives from different Turkish political parties, including the opposition, were scheduled to speak at the rally. Organizers had also wanted to carry a live-stream video feed of Erdogan speaking from Turkey, but the head of a police issued a ban on such a broadcast, citing concerns it could cause the crowd to become overexcited.
In the leadup to the event, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier urged demonstrators to display moderation.
"It is not right to bring Turkey's domestic political tensions here ... and intimidate people who have other political convictions," he told the Saturday edition of the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" newspaper.
The leader of the German Greens, Cem Özdemir, also criticized alleged attempts at intimidation ahead of the demonstration, telling newspapers of the Funke media group that critics of President Erdogan among Germany's Turkish community were being targeted.
"An atmosphere of fear must not be created," he said.
Gokay Sofuoglu, the chairman of the Turkish community in Germany, said families were being torn apart by conflicting loyalties. Ahead of Sunday's planned protest, he said, "I can only call for moderation."
Continued crackdown
Erdogan's government has detained thousands of officials in the military, judiciary, media and civil service in the wake of the July 15 coup attempt, which it blames on US-based cleric Fethullah Gulen.
Western leaders have voiced alarm over the purges, and Erdogan's critics fear he's using the coup as an excuse to consolidate his already tight grip on power.
Ahead of Sunday's march, Erdogan told foreign governments to keep out of Turkish affairs and "mind your own business." http://www.dw.com/en/thousands-of-pro-erdogan-protesters-to-rally-in-cologne/a-19439669
From my experience, especially young turkish people living in Germany are struggling a lot with their national identity. One of the reasons might be the fact that people in general still don't accept "2 coutnry people", so you "have to be either German or Turkish, you cant be both":
So while you grew up in Germany, speak the German language, went through German schooling, attend German univeristy, eat German food etc. people will still see you as Turkish. Your family and turkish relatives don't accept you as Turkish, because you didnt grew up in Turkey etc. You are neither German nor Turkish but both and people mostly dont get that concept at all.
You are looking for a place you "can call home" or relate to and then its not very far fetched to run to people who tell you how great Turkey is and so on. The Erdogan fan-base in Germany lives with the pride of Erdogan fans living in Turkey but without the repressions of they system he promotes. I hope everything will stay peaceful so that turkish clusterfuck doesn't bother the German society more than it already is.
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Turks who demostrate for a dictator have no chance of successful integration and thus have no business being in Europe. They should go back to Turkey if Erdogan is so great.
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On August 01 2016 02:33 Scorch wrote:
Turks who demostrate for a dictator have no chance of successful integration and thus have no business being in Europe. They should go back to Turkey if Erdogan is so great.
You are just doing the same thing as they are. If you want to suppress others for their political opinions why dont you leave europe instead?
These people have an opinion and they want to express it. Just because you dont agree with them does not give you some kind of superiority.
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Except core values like democracy, free press and rule of law are widely accepted consensus in European culture. No nation has an interest in a group of immigrants forming a parallel society which rejects those values. I know that freedom of opinion is one of our core values as well, but at some point we have to discuss how we balance these conflicting interests.
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How do you know they are "forming a parallel society"? Because of a peaceful protest where they grieve the victims of a military coup? Or because they support a democratically elected dictator?
Do you have any evidence for "parallel societies" being formed? Or is that just an excuse?
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has there ever been, in US history, a time in which americans gathered up in a show of support for a ruler of a different country?.
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EPT
