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On August 01 2016 21:45 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +(Reuters) - Germany and the European Union should not be blackmailed by Turkey in talks on visa liberalisation for Turkish nationals, German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said on Monday.
"It is up to Turkey if there is or there isn't visa liberalisation," Gabriel said during a trip to northern Germany. "Germany and Europe should under no circumstances be blackmailed."
Gabriel also welcomed a decision by Germany's highest court to prevent Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan from addressing via video-link a rally in Cologne on Sunday.
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said in remarks published at the weekend that Ankara would back out of its agreement with the EU to stem the flow of migrants into the bloc if the EU doesn't deliver visa-free travel for Turks.
Visa-free access to the EU - the main reward for Ankara's role in choking off an influx of migrants into Europe - has been subject to delays due to a dispute over Turkish anti-terrorism legislation and Ankara's crackdown after a failed coup. uk.mobile.reuters.com
CSU general secretary Andreas Scheuer:
Threats and ultimatums, the new style of Erdogan-Turkey. In regards to the 72 points that lead to visa free access, we're not on the turkish bazar. Visa free access in the current situation is completely out of the question.
Sidenote: headline of the "Takvim", turkish newspaper with ties to the government:
"Germany, that didn't escape its Nazi-history, dropped its mask. It supports the "putschists" (the coup people) Fetö-Gang (the Gulen people), who are against Turkey. It, once more, has proven that it's neither a friend nor ally."
Like.. I actually wonder, how delusional many turkish people actually are. I stopped wondering how comical ridiculous Erdogan is, but i do wonder how the "normal" people actually see this whole thing. Especially after seeing yesterday in cologne (where Erdogan wasn't allowed to speak). Even turks in germany are completely bonkers, not realizing how ridiculous the shit is that turkey produces at the moment.
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Why did they forbid him to speak?
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On August 01 2016 22:30 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 21:45 RvB wrote:(Reuters) - Germany and the European Union should not be blackmailed by Turkey in talks on visa liberalisation for Turkish nationals, German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said on Monday.
"It is up to Turkey if there is or there isn't visa liberalisation," Gabriel said during a trip to northern Germany. "Germany and Europe should under no circumstances be blackmailed."
Gabriel also welcomed a decision by Germany's highest court to prevent Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan from addressing via video-link a rally in Cologne on Sunday.
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said in remarks published at the weekend that Ankara would back out of its agreement with the EU to stem the flow of migrants into the bloc if the EU doesn't deliver visa-free travel for Turks.
Visa-free access to the EU - the main reward for Ankara's role in choking off an influx of migrants into Europe - has been subject to delays due to a dispute over Turkish anti-terrorism legislation and Ankara's crackdown after a failed coup. uk.mobile.reuters.com CSU general secretary Andreas Scheuer: Threats and ultimatums, the new style of Erdogan-Turkey. In regards to the 72 points that lead to visa free access, we're not on the turkish bazar. Visa free access in the current situation is completely out of the question. Sidenote: headline of the "Takvim", turkish newspaper with ties to the government: "Germany, that didn't escape its Nazi-history, dropped its mask. It supports the "putschists" (the coup people) Fetö-Gang (the Gulen people), who are against Turkey. It, once more, has proven that it's neither a friend nor ally." Like.. I actually wonder, how delusional many turkish people actually are. I stopped wondering how comical ridiculous Erdogan is, but i do wonder how the "normal" people actually see this whole thing. Especially after seeing yesterday in cologne (where Erdogan wasn't allowed to speak). Even turks in germany are completely bonkers, not realizing how ridiculous the shit is that turkey produces at the moment.
Erdogan is a religious nutjob dictator actively working to supress Turkey's civil liberties and secularism, with roughly 60% of popular support. That should tell you enough about turkish "normal" people.
The coup was backed mostly by the 25-30% of secular people living in Turkey, whose way of life is being destroyed atm.
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On August 01 2016 22:37 Sent. wrote:
Why did they forbid him to speak?
A high (the highest?) German court denied the appeal because the law doesn't allow it.
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Yeah I'm asking why letting him speak was against the law
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On August 01 2016 22:43 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 22:30 m4ini wrote:On August 01 2016 21:45 RvB wrote:(Reuters) - Germany and the European Union should not be blackmailed by Turkey in talks on visa liberalisation for Turkish nationals, German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said on Monday.
"It is up to Turkey if there is or there isn't visa liberalisation," Gabriel said during a trip to northern Germany. "Germany and Europe should under no circumstances be blackmailed."
Gabriel also welcomed a decision by Germany's highest court to prevent Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan from addressing via video-link a rally in Cologne on Sunday.
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said in remarks published at the weekend that Ankara would back out of its agreement with the EU to stem the flow of migrants into the bloc if the EU doesn't deliver visa-free travel for Turks.
Visa-free access to the EU - the main reward for Ankara's role in choking off an influx of migrants into Europe - has been subject to delays due to a dispute over Turkish anti-terrorism legislation and Ankara's crackdown after a failed coup. uk.mobile.reuters.com CSU general secretary Andreas Scheuer: Threats and ultimatums, the new style of Erdogan-Turkey. In regards to the 72 points that lead to visa free access, we're not on the turkish bazar. Visa free access in the current situation is completely out of the question. Sidenote: headline of the "Takvim", turkish newspaper with ties to the government: "Germany, that didn't escape its Nazi-history, dropped its mask. It supports the "putschists" (the coup people) Fetö-Gang (the Gulen people), who are against Turkey. It, once more, has proven that it's neither a friend nor ally." Like.. I actually wonder, how delusional many turkish people actually are. I stopped wondering how comical ridiculous Erdogan is, but i do wonder how the "normal" people actually see this whole thing. Especially after seeing yesterday in cologne (where Erdogan wasn't allowed to speak). Even turks in germany are completely bonkers, not realizing how ridiculous the shit is that turkey produces at the moment. Erdogan is a religious nutjob dictator actively working to supress Turkey's civil liberties and secularism, with roughly 60% of popular support. That should tell you enough about turkish "normal" people. The coup was backed mostly by the 25-30% of secular people living in Turkey, whose way of life is being destroyed atm.
His party received 50% of the vote not 60% in the last election and that was after stirring up nationalism by reigniting the war against the Kurds. The election before that he only got 40%. A majority of the Turks do not support Erdogan. The problem is that the ultra nationalist MHP and the Kurdish HDP will never be in a coalition togehter and the CHP isn't big enough so they couldn't create an anti akp coalition after the first election. Another issue is thst a party needs at least 10% of the vote to even get into parliament and if HDP doesn't get in a lot of the seats go to the AKP.
The coup didn't have a lot of support either. There's a reason why even the opposition parties united behind Erdogan and condemned the coup. The last coup resulted in a lot of executions and the like.
en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org
Edit: Erdogans approval ratings were also down to 39% after the last elections.
www.theguardian.com
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On August 01 2016 22:37 Sent. wrote:
Why did they forbid him to speak?
The police did not allow a live speech by erdogan to be streamed during a protest rally. The reasoning from the police was that the situation was already very dangerous (there were 4 counter protests, some of them with neo nazis, some of them with kurds) and a speech by Erdogan could heat things up even more. The police said they are afraid the situation might get out of control and to improve the safety of everyone involved they forbid the live stream.
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On August 01 2016 22:30 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 21:45 RvB wrote:(Reuters) - Germany and the European Union should not be blackmailed by Turkey in talks on visa liberalisation for Turkish nationals, German Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said on Monday.
"It is up to Turkey if there is or there isn't visa liberalisation," Gabriel said during a trip to northern Germany. "Germany and Europe should under no circumstances be blackmailed."
Gabriel also welcomed a decision by Germany's highest court to prevent Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan from addressing via video-link a rally in Cologne on Sunday.
Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said in remarks published at the weekend that Ankara would back out of its agreement with the EU to stem the flow of migrants into the bloc if the EU doesn't deliver visa-free travel for Turks.
Visa-free access to the EU - the main reward for Ankara's role in choking off an influx of migrants into Europe - has been subject to delays due to a dispute over Turkish anti-terrorism legislation and Ankara's crackdown after a failed coup. uk.mobile.reuters.com CSU general secretary Andreas Scheuer: Threats and ultimatums, the new style of Erdogan-Turkey. In regards to the 72 points that lead to visa free access, we're not on the turkish bazar. Visa free access in the current situation is completely out of the question. Sidenote: headline of the "Takvim", turkish newspaper with ties to the government: "Germany, that didn't escape its Nazi-history, dropped its mask. It supports the "putschists" (the coup people) Fetö-Gang (the Gulen people), who are against Turkey. It, once more, has proven that it's neither a friend nor ally." Like.. I actually wonder, how delusional many turkish people actually are. I stopped wondering how comical ridiculous Erdogan is, but i do wonder how the "normal" people actually see this whole thing. Especially after seeing yesterday in cologne (where Erdogan wasn't allowed to speak). Even turks in germany are completely bonkers, not realizing how ridiculous the shit is that turkey produces at the moment.
Dont worry, we germans are also financing the PKK. I am just waiting for turkish claims that ISIS is a german army organisation.
The good thing is, the german people are answering Erdogans call where it hits him, -40% of german tourists in Turkey just in june (germans bring up the highest number of tourists in turkey while russians have been 2nd with -90% reduction) and also Germany is the most important trade and investment partner of Turkey. Bad for Erdogan, that alot of companies reduce or stop their investments there.
If our gouvernment now does not give in, Erdogan will do it just like he did it with russia.
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I doubt it's because Germans dislike Erdogan, it's probably because of all those terrorist attacks in Tunisia, Egypt and Turkey.
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On August 02 2016 01:08 Sent. wrote:
I doubt it's because Germans dislike Erdogan, it's probably because of all those terrorist attacks in Tunisia, Egypt and Turkey.
This has started before the major attacks against Turkey by the Islamic State.
First german tourists moved from tunesia and egypt to Turkey, but last year, another movement started away from Turkey, either back to Egypt (as it is considered saver, but they are still miles away from the level prior to the arabien winter) or to Spain, Italy and to some degree Greece.
The attacks and the coop make this development faster, but Erdogan being Erdogan is especially hitting trade and investment between both nations as well as destroying turkeys reputation heavily, much more then terrorist attacks (germans still travel to france) could do.
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On August 01 2016 23:16 RoomOfMush wrote:The police did not allow a live speech by erdogan to be streamed during a protest rally. The reasoning from the police was that the situation was already very dangerous (there were 4 counter protests, some of them with neo nazis, some of them with kurds) and a speech by Erdogan could heat things up even more. The police said they are afraid the situation might get out of control and to improve the safety of everyone involved they forbid the live stream.
In addition of course to the fact that Germany is a sovereign nation state that has power over whether or not it wants a foreign head of state rile up even more an already very much riled up population group. There is no reason whatsoever why Germany would allow Turkish political problems be imported into Germany like that.
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On August 02 2016 05:17 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 23:16 RoomOfMush wrote:On August 01 2016 22:37 Sent. wrote:
Why did they forbid him to speak? The police did not allow a live speech by erdogan to be streamed during a protest rally. The reasoning from the police was that the situation was already very dangerous (there were 4 counter protests, some of them with neo nazis, some of them with kurds) and a speech by Erdogan could heat things up even more. The police said they are afraid the situation might get out of control and to improve the safety of everyone involved they forbid the live stream. In addition of course to the fact that Germany is a sovereign nation state that has power over whether or not it wants a foreign head of state rile up even more an already very much riled up population group. There is no reason whatsoever why Germany would allow Turkish political problems be imported into Germany like that.
That's the reasoning.
It's turkish problems, and they're not supposed to be fought out on german soil. Over here, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter if you're a turk, kurd or whatever. You're in germany, you follow german law, the german chancellor is the highest "instance" (well it's not, but i assume it's clear how i mean that) - not Erdogan. Erdogan would've used that to have a big speech on how the Gulen movement is whatever - which could, and most likely would, lead to a riled up mob of 40.000 people running around threatening, or even attacking stuff (more than they already do).
Also, german politicians weren't allowed to visit german soldiers in Incirlik. Now Erdogan is complaining that his foreign minister was not allowed to "lead" the protest. Like, what clownshow assumes that one thing is "unjust" and "undemocratic", but the other "justified and legal"?
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Dunno, it seemed fairly peaceful and this is giving him more of a platform than just letting him speak. the German democracy is strong enough to endure an Erdogan speech.
This "he didn't allow us to X so we won't allow him.." stuff is really petty. That's not the standard we should go down to
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On August 02 2016 06:42 Nyxisto wrote:
Dunno, it seemed fairly peaceful and this is giving him more of a platform than just letting him speak. the German democracy is strong enough to endure an Erdogan speech.
This "he didn't allow us to X so we won't allow him.." stuff is really petty. That's not the standard we should go down to
You mean except the death threats, attacks on gulen youth facilities etc that happened before the protest already? That has nothing to do with "german democracy" but a mob getting riled up by a delusional and paranoid retard, who made it abundantly clear what he thinks of these people. In a matter of fact, can you recall what the turkish government tried to pull in regards to gulen and hizmet organisations in germany?
Also, i never commented on if it was good or not to prohibit the FM from leading the protest. I said i find it extremely funtarded that they're complaining how it's unjust and undemocratic, when they just a couple of weeks back prohibited german politicians from visiting german soldiers.
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On August 01 2016 23:04 Sent. wrote:
Yeah I'm asking why letting him speak was against the law
The official reasoning is that live transmissions are not included in the right of public gatherings (lol, sounds terrible in English but I can't find the correct translation) and thus local law enforcement was allowed to forbid it. As far as I understood it.
I agree with the ban by the way. I don't think the protesters should be sent back to turkey (on the grounds of which law anyway?), though. they were fully within their rights to do the demo. On my streets Kurds protest every month against the oppression in Turkey, this wasn't much different.
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On August 02 2016 06:53 m4ini wrote:
I said i find it extremely funtarded that they're complaining how it's unjust and undemocratic, when they just a couple of weeks back prohibited german politicians from visiting german soldiers.
Exactly this! They even announced it wasn't for security reasons, just to get back at the Germans. I can't fathom how petty the Turkish leadership is acting at the moment.
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If there was legitimate palpable security risk at that moment it's of course a reasonable decision. But I really doubt that Erdogan was going to incite violence or anything that could cause unrest. As long as speech is within constitutional bounds we shouldn't preemtively shut out talkers, even if they're controversial foreign politicians.
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On August 02 2016 07:39 Nyxisto wrote:
If there was legitimate palpable security risk at that moment it's of course a reasonable decision. But I really doubt that Erdogan was going to incite violence or anything that could cause unrest. As long as speech is within constitutional bounds we shouldn't preemtively shut out talkers, even if they're controversial foreign politicians.
It doesnt matter if they are controversial or not. Why on earth should germany allow uninvited foreign head of states to make political statements in germany?
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On August 02 2016 07:46 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 07:39 Nyxisto wrote:
If there was legitimate palpable security risk at that moment it's of course a reasonable decision. But I really doubt that Erdogan was going to incite violence or anything that could cause unrest. As long as speech is within constitutional bounds we shouldn't preemtively shut out talkers, even if they're controversial foreign politicians. It doesnt matter if they are controversial or not. Why on earth should germany allow uninvited foreign head of states to make political statements in germany?
Free speech.
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On August 02 2016 07:46 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 07:39 Nyxisto wrote:
If there was legitimate palpable security risk at that moment it's of course a reasonable decision. But I really doubt that Erdogan was going to incite violence or anything that could cause unrest. As long as speech is within constitutional bounds we shouldn't preemtively shut out talkers, even if they're controversial foreign politicians. It doesnt matter if they are controversial or not. Why on earth should germany allow uninvited foreign head of states to make political statements in germany?
Because you're free to protest and discuss politics in Germany without any invitation no matter if you're a public official, foreigner or citizen?
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EPT
