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On August 04 2016 19:12 xM(Z wrote:
Edit: Erdogan will most likely use both Russia and EU, making concessions to both, pit them against each other, then reap the benefits; sounds pretty smart to me.
See, this is the Problem with your "arguments".
You could switch the positions of Turkye/Russia/EU (and add in however many others you would like) and it would still be just as likely to be true as the "reality" you chose to believe.
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On August 04 2016 18:17 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2016 17:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 02 2016 08:05 Nyxisto wrote:
Generally speaking, you are. The fact that they could prevent Erdogan from speaking doesn't mean that they should or that this is somehow an established norm. We're pretty clear on where the line regarding free speech is. Incitement of violence, hate speech, holocaust denial etc.. We usually don't make a habit of shutting foreign speakers up for political reasons. No, we aren't clear on where the line is. We're at the stage where somebody saying they don't agree with a million muslim migrants coming to Germany in one year is committing "hate speech". Recall Merkel talking to Zuckerberg a year back about increasing censorship on facebook. Maybe you are unclear where the line is. "Somebody saying they don't agree with a million muslim migrants coming to Germany" is not hate speech in Germany, period. We have a fairly well functioning judicative for these kind of things. Facebook is a private company, any "censorship" they decide to implement is on them. If there were actual cases brought against Facebook they were within the boundaries of the well defined laws of hate speech we have over here.
http://www.therebel.media/watch_german_government_arrests_man_for_talking_about_criticizing_erdogan
"I made some quotes [from the poem] and I was explaining it. I did not expect [an arrest]. Basically I was treated like a criminal. What is even worse, the whole demonstration was shut down, so the freedom of speech of so many people who wanted to speak was taken away.”"
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On August 04 2016 20:01 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2016 19:12 xM(Z wrote:
Edit: Erdogan will most likely use both Russia and EU, making concessions to both, pit them against each other, then reap the benefits; sounds pretty smart to me. See, this is the Problem with your "arguments". You could switch the positions of Turkye/Russia/EU (and add in however many others you would like) and it would still be just as likely to be true as the "reality" you chose to believe.
damn, look at this dude spinning realityceptions as if he's at a GOP meeting or something.
no, you don't chose to believe a reality, it unfolds before your eyes so just look at it.
as far as hypotheticals go, feel free to believe in whichever monster you deem worthy; i doubt anyone cares what happens in your safe-space.
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On August 04 2016 23:20 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2016 18:17 zatic wrote:On August 04 2016 17:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 02 2016 08:05 Nyxisto wrote:
Generally speaking, you are. The fact that they could prevent Erdogan from speaking doesn't mean that they should or that this is somehow an established norm. We're pretty clear on where the line regarding free speech is. Incitement of violence, hate speech, holocaust denial etc.. We usually don't make a habit of shutting foreign speakers up for political reasons. No, we aren't clear on where the line is. We're at the stage where somebody saying they don't agree with a million muslim migrants coming to Germany in one year is committing "hate speech". Recall Merkel talking to Zuckerberg a year back about increasing censorship on facebook. Maybe you are unclear where the line is. "Somebody saying they don't agree with a million muslim migrants coming to Germany" is not hate speech in Germany, period. We have a fairly well functioning judicative for these kind of things. Facebook is a private company, any "censorship" they decide to implement is on them. If there were actual cases brought against Facebook they were within the boundaries of the well defined laws of hate speech we have over here. http://www.therebel.media/watch_german_government_arrests_man_for_talking_about_criticizing_erdogan"I made some quotes [from the poem] and I was explaining it. I did not expect [an arrest]. Basically I was treated like a criminal. What is even worse, the whole demonstration was shut down, so the freedom of speech of so many people who wanted to speak was taken away.”"
That website looks extremely neutral and unbiased. I'm sure they've provided all the context and Angela Merkel clearly is ordering the arrest of absolutely innocent people because Erdogan demands it, as they say in the first sentence.
Or maybe the situation is a bit more complicated than that...
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On August 04 2016 23:34 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2016 23:20 Madkipz wrote:On August 04 2016 18:17 zatic wrote:On August 04 2016 17:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 02 2016 08:05 Nyxisto wrote:
Generally speaking, you are. The fact that they could prevent Erdogan from speaking doesn't mean that they should or that this is somehow an established norm. We're pretty clear on where the line regarding free speech is. Incitement of violence, hate speech, holocaust denial etc.. We usually don't make a habit of shutting foreign speakers up for political reasons. No, we aren't clear on where the line is. We're at the stage where somebody saying they don't agree with a million muslim migrants coming to Germany in one year is committing "hate speech". Recall Merkel talking to Zuckerberg a year back about increasing censorship on facebook. Maybe you are unclear where the line is. "Somebody saying they don't agree with a million muslim migrants coming to Germany" is not hate speech in Germany, period. We have a fairly well functioning judicative for these kind of things. Facebook is a private company, any "censorship" they decide to implement is on them. If there were actual cases brought against Facebook they were within the boundaries of the well defined laws of hate speech we have over here. http://www.therebel.media/watch_german_government_arrests_man_for_talking_about_criticizing_erdogan"I made some quotes [from the poem] and I was explaining it. I did not expect [an arrest]. Basically I was treated like a criminal. What is even worse, the whole demonstration was shut down, so the freedom of speech of so many people who wanted to speak was taken away.”" That website looks extremely neutral and unbiased. I'm sure they've provided all the context and Angela Merkel clearly is ordering the arrest of absolutely innocent people because Erdogan demands it, as they say in the first sentence. Or maybe the situation is a bit more complicated than that...
Uh living in germany you should know better than people oversea whats happening here, but as you don't, let me help you with the top comment.
As long as you are not white and not Christian you can trash anyone and anything – and nothing will happen to you in Europe.
White? Christian? Employed taxpayer? You will be arrested, interrogated and charged in Europe.
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Lol, lemme get this straight, you're referencing a comment posted to a clearly biased article as proof that Morfildur doesn't understand what's happening in his country?
That's not very smart.
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Do you know the background of the poem? The poem was "labeled" as inappropriate and if you have some sort of understanding, you wouldn't cite in anywhere. Police probably did him a favor there, the guy who wrote the original poem is in real legal trouble because of it.
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The guy that actually wrote the Poem mainly got tons of advertising for his Show out of it, no one believes that there will be any sort of true punishment.
Germanies biggest problem with the refugees/immigrants is quite simple (aside from the stress that such an amount in this time will put on every country).
Germany for years cut costs on the Police/Justice department and basically everywhere it could (or couldn't).
Germany for years treated "mildish" crimes well, very mild.
Germany uses/can use an even weaker set of laws on people under 21 (because they can be judged like children).
Now the right suddenly finds all this horrible... It was like this since a long time, you just didn't care because it wasn't brown people doing stupid shit or they lived in the turkish parts of your cities were you didn't really realise it....
Fund your Police again, fund your justice system again, actually use your laws and possible punishments. Bam.. I just solved half of germanies refugee/immigration "problem".
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On August 05 2016 00:18 Velr wrote:
Fund your Police again, fund your justice system again, actually use your laws and possible punishments. Bam.. I just solved half of germanies refugee/immigration "problem". That is asking too much from the average German. 
It would mean voting for someone other than Merkel. Remember, the guy who is the most radical supporter of 'fiscal restraint' is the most popular politician in this country!
The average German does not see any connection between his vote and the politics that follow.
He lambastes irresponsible lefties, that only want to spend money, raise taxes or - the horror - increase national dept. And then he whines about the state of schools or the lack of police or that his local swimming pool has to be closed.
I am not kidding sadly, the average German voter does not see this simple correlation.
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The average American voter doesn't either 
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They also don't do here.. Well "right". Everyone not classified as left.
I mean, I wouldn't even be that left, but i believe in tax hikes AND spending cuts... But nowadays thats like an extreme belief.
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On August 05 2016 00:18 Velr wrote:
Now the right suddenly finds all this horrible... It was like this since a long time, you just didn't care because it wasn't brown people doing stupid shit or they lived in the turkish parts of your cities were you didn't really realise it....
It's not that it's brown, it's the crime rate. It's the frequency and severity of said crimes. I don't think 2000 men sexually assaulting & stealing from 1200 women was really a common occurrence before in a single night.
I think the people disagreeing with the mayor here are holding in their anger and frustrations very well for the most part
+ Show Spoiler +
The general consensus I'm seeing is that migrants and refugees get slapped on the wrist for some rather serious offenses. Or the police have just given up because they can't deal with the huge influx of crimes.
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I went thru school during the yugoslavian refugee wave... Wasn't all flowers and shit then either and Mayor/Director/Whoever wasn't helpfull too.
But growing some balls and stand up (read, hit them in the face) to the retards and making friends with the "normal" guys did the job... Now they are all just normal citizens and aside from the name you couldn't tell the diffrence on most.
Nah, it wasn't fun, but it was worth it.
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recent immigrants regardless of if they are brown or not or muslim or not are susceptible to getting involved in street crime and organized crime as well (and there are a lot of similarities between islamic terrorist groups and ethnic organized crime gangs)
happened in america with irish immigrants in the mid 19th century all the way up to world war 2
same thing with jewish immigrants, italian immigrants, etc.
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On August 05 2016 04:36 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2016 00:18 Velr wrote:
Now the right suddenly finds all this horrible... It was like this since a long time, you just didn't care because it wasn't brown people doing stupid shit or they lived in the turkish parts of your cities were you didn't really realise it.... It's not that it's brown, it's the crime rate. It's the frequency and severity of said crimes. I don't think 2000 men sexually assaulting & stealing from 1200 women was really a common occurrence before in a single night. I think the people disagreeing with the mayor here are holding in their anger and frustrations very well for the most part + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdSsJQ-fvOU The general consensus I'm seeing is that migrants and refugees get slapped on the wrist for some rather serious offenses. Or the police have just given up because they can't deal with the huge influx of crimes.
White people do the same shit. Just because some immigrants are as bad as some natives doesnt mean immigrants are bad.
Some people are simply bad people. They will always be there. In every group of people above a certain size you will find the bad kind, be it immigrants or natives, christians or muslims, muricans, europeans, asians, etc. Some people are nice and some people are not.
What many people like to do though is to only look at the nice natives and the bad foreigners. "Immigrants are killing natives!!!" so what? Natives are killing natives too. "Immigrants are sexually harassing women!!!!" so what? Natives are doing that too.
Its not the fact that they are immigrants. Its the fact that they are arseholes.
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"White people do the same shit" is a complete false equivalency. Again, it's about rate. Proportion. You're not going to win this argument when we're talking about proportion. People are the building blocks or the foundation of society. With this new wave of immigrants, I'd say the blocks aren't as sound or sturdy as the ones you already have. "Don't worry they'll integrate". Well this wave of immigrants is a little different from the Irish waves for a large number of reasons.
2000 men. 1200 women. On a single night. Are you seriously going to tell me that it was common for gangs of dozens of German men to roam the night in search of easy targets to sexually abuse? Are you seriously going to tell me that was a common occurrence in Germany before? Let alone 2000? So what? That's your response to this? So what? That's your response to the very concerned native people of the land who built the country in the first place? That's a very sad and stupid response.
I am not blind to bad natives of countries either, I feel that's an absolutely terrible distraction from the issue. Like when a Muslim blows up and then someone says, "Hey, Christians do it too!" Well.. not really to the same degree. You stand on shaky ground.
Again, it's about proportion RoomofMush and whether a town, city, or country can flourish with that increased level of crime and that large sense of community lost.
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On August 05 2016 05:57 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2016 04:36 SK.Testie wrote:On August 05 2016 00:18 Velr wrote:
Now the right suddenly finds all this horrible... It was like this since a long time, you just didn't care because it wasn't brown people doing stupid shit or they lived in the turkish parts of your cities were you didn't really realise it.... It's not that it's brown, it's the crime rate. It's the frequency and severity of said crimes. I don't think 2000 men sexually assaulting & stealing from 1200 women was really a common occurrence before in a single night. I think the people disagreeing with the mayor here are holding in their anger and frustrations very well for the most part + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdSsJQ-fvOU The general consensus I'm seeing is that migrants and refugees get slapped on the wrist for some rather serious offenses. Or the police have just given up because they can't deal with the huge influx of crimes. White people do the same shit. Just because some immigrants are as bad as some natives doesnt mean immigrants are bad. Some people are simply bad people. They will always be there. In every group of people above a certain size you will find the bad kind, be it immigrants or natives, christians or muslims, muricans, europeans, asians, etc. Some people are nice and some people are not. What many people like to do though is to only look at the nice natives and the bad foreigners. "Immigrants are killing natives!!!" so what? Natives are killing natives too. "Immigrants are sexually harassing women!!!!" so what? Natives are doing that too. Its not the fact that they are immigrants. Its the fact that they are arseholes.
You are wrong on every level. Seems like Testie beat me to it on explaining why, i find it astonishing it needs to even be explained in the first place on here..
We even discussed the same issue a few weeks ago in this thread backed up with a few sources, turned out the immigrants are 4 times more likely to rape than a national, and that was Germany, in Sweden it'll be even higher.
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On August 05 2016 05:57 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2016 04:36 SK.Testie wrote:On August 05 2016 00:18 Velr wrote:
Now the right suddenly finds all this horrible... It was like this since a long time, you just didn't care because it wasn't brown people doing stupid shit or they lived in the turkish parts of your cities were you didn't really realise it.... It's not that it's brown, it's the crime rate. It's the frequency and severity of said crimes. I don't think 2000 men sexually assaulting & stealing from 1200 women was really a common occurrence before in a single night. I think the people disagreeing with the mayor here are holding in their anger and frustrations very well for the most part + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdSsJQ-fvOU The general consensus I'm seeing is that migrants and refugees get slapped on the wrist for some rather serious offenses. Or the police have just given up because they can't deal with the huge influx of crimes. White people do the same shit. Just because some immigrants are as bad as some natives doesnt mean immigrants are bad. Some people are simply bad people. They will always be there. In every group of people above a certain size you will find the bad kind, be it immigrants or natives, christians or muslims, muricans, europeans, asians, etc. Some people are nice and some people are not. What many people like to do though is to only look at the nice natives and the bad foreigners. "Immigrants are killing natives!!!" so what? Natives are killing natives too. "Immigrants are sexually harassing women!!!!" so what? Natives are doing that too. Its not the fact that they are immigrants. Its the fact that they are arseholes.
You're either being intentionally dishonest or you simply refuse to acknowledge the objective reality that these migrants from the MENA region commit crimes at rates vastly higher than the native population. There is no such thing as a completely safe society and there never will be, and to try and make it seem as though all societies are completely the same with regards to criminality simply because none are perfect is patently absurd. Most European states have enjoyed generally low levels of violent and sexual crime for many decades, and importing large numbers of migrants from the MENA region has resulted in significant increases in both, especially the latter. Your false equivalency does nothing but encourage the continuation of these crimes, and makes you, like Merkel, complicit in them. Ignorance is no excuse, even a cursory look at the cultures of the people who have been arriving en masse would tell you exactly what you were going to get by opening the gates to them.
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There's no doubt that the crime rates among immigrants are generally higher, but most comparisons are ridiculous as they don't account for difference in age, income, education and so on. Obviously a group of 20 year old impoverished men commits more crime than a group of 80 year old grandmothers. If these things are accounted for the difference becomes a lot less dramatic and vanishes in some areas, theft for example.
Also there's a lot of trickery going on with the baseline. If you have 10 crazy axe murderers out of a one million pop compared to one axe murderer the year before your axe murderer rate just increased by a shocking 1000% although that actually still does say nothing about the million people in question.
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On August 05 2016 11:27 Nyxisto wrote:
There's no doubt that the crime rates among immigrants are generally higher, but most comparisons are ridiculous as they don't account for difference in age, income, education and so on. Obviously a group of 20 year old impoverished men commits more crime than a group of 80 year old grandmothers. If these things are accounted for the difference becomes a lot less dramatic and vanishes in some areas, theft for example.
Also there's a lot of trickery going on with the baseline. If you have 10 crazy axe murderers out of a one million pop compared to one axe murderer the year before your axe murderer rate just increased by a shocking 1000% although that actually still does say nothing about the million people in question.
The primary mission of any sane nation is the protection of its citizen.
It is the sole foundation we've built everything on. The average citizen has ceded sovereignty on the topic of violence to the state, and the state monopoly on violence is supposed to be what protects them from violent individuals. it doesn't matter that it's statistically insignificant. The government has harmed its own people by importing these immigrants, and have failed at maintaining security.
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EPT
