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Interesting, never head of it, thanks.
Thought it is funny for Hungary to demand the others to contribute real money, while they just 'pass on' part of the money they would have received, quite the noble sacrifice^^.
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Zurich15352 Posts
Also, this was after Merkel's "Wir schaffen das" if I am not mistaken, so right in the middle when a million people were already on the way. An effort to make refugee camps in Turkey / Lebanon more livable would have worked before summer 2015, it's not like someone who just forked over all their money to a trafficker is going to turn around and return to a camp for the promise of running water.
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Refugee camps are still full of millions of people, who could still make their way.
There is a reason everybody in Europe is afraid Erdogan might 'open the gates' again.
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On August 06 2016 12:26 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 02:56 Madkipz wrote:On August 05 2016 21:59 Elroi wrote:I see so many ill informed and hatefull posts here it makes my head spin. Yes, many immigrants are comming to europe now because of the war in syria and in the wake of the arab spring. And yes, integration is difficult, costs money (at least in the beginning) and desperate, poor, marginalized people are potentially more dangerous than others. But please have some sense of proportions here. The alternative is to let hundreds of thousands of people, men, women and children, starve, drown, get locked up in camps (like the torture camps used for extortion in egypt and libya) or simply sold as slaves. At the same time populist parties wants you to be afraid. It is by far the easiest way to win votes. To instill unreasonable fear is the easiest way to control people and it is practiced by all dictators from hitler to erdogan. I see so much fear mongering here, but please remember that, for example, sweden has a lower crime rate now than we had before this recent wave of immigrants came here. The economy is still going strong. People are happy and the living standard of the average swede is going up. Is everything perfect and is the intigration of immigrants flaweless? No, but we will be fine and at least we do something to help. Wir schaffen das. Some sources. Crime rates: https://www.bra.se/bra/brott-och-statistik/brottsutvecklingen.html (in swedish, but you will understand the graph.) Living standards: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/sweden/ That's because the police in sweden literally leave the ghetto places with tons of migrants enforcing their own sharia law in peace rather than enforce the law on everyone. https://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-go-zones-in-sweden/nevermind that if swedes did the same they'd be arrested as neo nazi's. Hundreds and thousands of people are starving in camps in turkey and other places. You think the number of immigrants europe accepts is significant? It's not. it's like taking one or two peanuts from a bowl, and germany is being critizised for upping the amount of peanuts their taking without providing the level of security this demands. Anyone nation bringing in syrian migrants are just looking to score cheap political points in the media storm, and to let their opposition look like racists for simply being sensible. The worst part is that the people we're taking in is extending the crisis. It's like removing pressure from the valve of a nation in dire need for the manpower and the skills of the people fleeing it to solve the crisis. Not to mention it would be a lot cheaper to help them at the refugee camps. And that it makes far more sense that people culturally alike stay together, instead of scooping them from their societies and putting them somewhere with a different culture and laguage and forcing them to "integrate".
You would still have to take in refugees though or otherwise you'll be stuck with refugee camps which will never go away. If we let them in legally, briefly educate them and then let them work we can a benefit from the refugee flow.
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Nothing stops you from taking refugees from refugee camps.
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On August 06 2016 19:35 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 12:26 GoTuNk! wrote:On August 06 2016 02:56 Madkipz wrote:On August 05 2016 21:59 Elroi wrote:I see so many ill informed and hatefull posts here it makes my head spin. Yes, many immigrants are comming to europe now because of the war in syria and in the wake of the arab spring. And yes, integration is difficult, costs money (at least in the beginning) and desperate, poor, marginalized people are potentially more dangerous than others. But please have some sense of proportions here. The alternative is to let hundreds of thousands of people, men, women and children, starve, drown, get locked up in camps (like the torture camps used for extortion in egypt and libya) or simply sold as slaves. At the same time populist parties wants you to be afraid. It is by far the easiest way to win votes. To instill unreasonable fear is the easiest way to control people and it is practiced by all dictators from hitler to erdogan. I see so much fear mongering here, but please remember that, for example, sweden has a lower crime rate now than we had before this recent wave of immigrants came here. The economy is still going strong. People are happy and the living standard of the average swede is going up. Is everything perfect and is the intigration of immigrants flaweless? No, but we will be fine and at least we do something to help. Wir schaffen das. Some sources. Crime rates: https://www.bra.se/bra/brott-och-statistik/brottsutvecklingen.html (in swedish, but you will understand the graph.) Living standards: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/sweden/ That's because the police in sweden literally leave the ghetto places with tons of migrants enforcing their own sharia law in peace rather than enforce the law on everyone. https://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-go-zones-in-sweden/nevermind that if swedes did the same they'd be arrested as neo nazi's. Hundreds and thousands of people are starving in camps in turkey and other places. You think the number of immigrants europe accepts is significant? It's not. it's like taking one or two peanuts from a bowl, and germany is being critizised for upping the amount of peanuts their taking without providing the level of security this demands. Anyone nation bringing in syrian migrants are just looking to score cheap political points in the media storm, and to let their opposition look like racists for simply being sensible. The worst part is that the people we're taking in is extending the crisis. It's like removing pressure from the valve of a nation in dire need for the manpower and the skills of the people fleeing it to solve the crisis. Not to mention it would be a lot cheaper to help them at the refugee camps. And that it makes far more sense that people culturally alike stay together, instead of scooping them from their societies and putting them somewhere with a different culture and laguage and forcing them to "integrate". You would still have to take in refugees though or otherwise you'll be stuck with refugee camps which will never go away. If we let them in legally, briefly educate them and then let them work we can a benefit from the refugee flow.
You can do that with immigrants, but not with refugees, which are by definition gone "soon". You're educating another countries workforce, and if you look at how much "brief education" costs (multiple billions a year just for basic german courses), i can't help but notice that there's no benefit, ever. And language is the most important part in education, considering that something like 8 out of 10 refugees/immigrants throw their apprenticeships as as soon as they reach theory.
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On August 06 2016 19:59 m4ini wrote:
You're educating another countries workforce, and if you look at how much "brief education" costs (multiple billions a year just for basic german courses), i can't help but notice that there's no benefit, ever. That is so not true!
Germany for example provides millions of Euros giving tens of thousands of foreign students free university education.
If you have a look around at a German university, you will find up to 10% Chinese students sometimes. Students who, by the way, overwhelmingly leave Germany once they graduate!
Now, why would the state waste millions on people who will not work a day of their life in Germany?
The answer is, that once these guys return to their home country, they take their 'German value/education' with them. They will some day find a job where they maybe can influence the relationship of their company with a German company. They will act as an intermediate.
Believe it or not, there are real measurable results from this policy. Germany does not give foreigners free education out of altruistic motives, but economic self interest. We are not 'export world champion' from nothing!
Now, with Syrian refugees it might well become the same scenario. First they learn our language and 'values' and whatnot. Then they first contribute towards our GDP in Germany itself. And later, when they return home to rebuild Syria they have already ties with us, so contracts for German companies and Banks will come flowing in.
Sure, it will not all be straight forward, but to claim that there will be no benefit at all, is most likely wrong!
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On August 06 2016 20:37 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 19:59 m4ini wrote:
You're educating another countries workforce, and if you look at how much "brief education" costs (multiple billions a year just for basic german courses), i can't help but notice that there's no benefit, ever. That is so not true! Germany for example provides millions of Euros giving tens of thousands of foreign students free university education. If you have a look around at a German university, you will find up to 10% Chinese students sometimes. Students who, by the way, overwhelmingly leave Germany once they graduate! Now, why would the state waste millions on people who will not work a day of their life in Germany? The answer is, that once these guys return to their home country, they take their 'German value/education' with them. They will some day find a job where they maybe can influence the relationship of their company with a German company. They will act as an intermediate. Believe it or not, there are real measurable results from this policy. Germany does not give foreigners free education out of altruistic motives, but economic self interest. We are not 'export world champion' from nothing! Now, with Syrian refugees it might well become the same scenario. First they learn our language and 'values' and whatnot. Then they first contribute towards our GDP in Germany itself. And later, when they return home to rebuild Syria they have already ties with us, so contracts for German companies and Banks will come flowing in. Sure, it will not all be straight forward, but to claim that there will be no benefit at all, is most likely wrong!
Which assumes that some day they will actually return.
So far there is no reason to believe that the conflict against ISIS and Assad will be resolved any time in the future.
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Now, with Syrian refugees it might well become the same scenario. First they learn our language and 'values' and whatnot. Then they first contribute towards our GDP in Germany itself. And later, when they return home to rebuild Syria they have already ties with us, so contracts for German companies and Banks will come flowing in.
They contribute towards your GDP with the money you gave them, no?
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Now, with Syrian refugees it might well become the same scenario. First they learn our language and 'values' and whatnot. Then they first contribute towards our GDP in Germany itself. And later, when they return home to rebuild Syria they have already ties with us, so contracts for German companies and Banks will come flowing in.
That's literally the sales pitch of "pro open arms politicians", which then was debunked by pretty much anyone who actually understands what he's talking about.
First: don't compare chinese students with syrians who are just learning basic language skills and a job like Maurer (wall-builder). You won't do business with a home builder in syria once the war is over. The contribution to our GDP is literally paid by the government, and will not in your lifetime top the initial costs of just having german courses.
"First they learn our languages and values", right. You do realize that they don't, yes? The older generation doesn't even bother with our language, and values are incompatible to certain parts of their religion. So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them".
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On August 06 2016 21:08 m4ini wrote:
So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them". No, I am certainly not! Stop putting words in my mouth.
But you on the other hand, have to admit, that there is a serious impact of living in another country for a while. To claim no effect is ridiculous.
It is mighty difficult for a 'hardcore' Muslim here in Germany to keep his family together under strict rules. Their children will see/experience what personal freedom means in hundreds of daily examples. Try putting that genie back into the bottle!
Also, it is kind of ironic, that conservative people, who oftentimes bemoan the state of our beautiful language, suddenly don't want to spend much money on teaching German to people who actually live here. We might teach someone German, who maybe doesn't need it? Is that not the goal of all those Stiftungen we set up in other countries? 
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On August 06 2016 21:41 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 21:08 m4ini wrote:
So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them". No, I am certainly not! Stop putting words in my mouth. But you on the other hand, have to admit, that there is a serious impact of living in another country for a while. To claim no effect is ridiculous. It is mighty difficult for a 'hardcore' Muslim here in Germany to keep his family together under strict rules. Their children will see/experience what personal freedom means in hundreds of daily examples. Try putting that genie back into the bottle! Also, it is kind of ironic, that conservative people, who oftentimes bemoan the state of our beautiful language, suddenly don't want to spend much money on teaching German to people who actually live here. We might teach someone German, who maybe doesn't need it? Is that not the goal of all those Stiftungen we set up in other countries?
Your vision does not match reality. It's actually way worse for their children than for them.
Migrants know about the differences between the two countries, they experienced it, they lived here and there. The children only goes back to their "home countries" during the holidays and have a very disturbed vision of those countries. We see this perfectly in France, first wave migrants don't cause much trouble and are exploited ; but their children are not as disciplined as they are.
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On August 06 2016 19:41 Sent. wrote:
Nothing stops you from taking refugees from refugee camps.
That was my point yes.
On August 06 2016 19:59 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 19:35 RvB wrote:On August 06 2016 12:26 GoTuNk! wrote:On August 06 2016 02:56 Madkipz wrote:On August 05 2016 21:59 Elroi wrote:I see so many ill informed and hatefull posts here it makes my head spin. Yes, many immigrants are comming to europe now because of the war in syria and in the wake of the arab spring. And yes, integration is difficult, costs money (at least in the beginning) and desperate, poor, marginalized people are potentially more dangerous than others. But please have some sense of proportions here. The alternative is to let hundreds of thousands of people, men, women and children, starve, drown, get locked up in camps (like the torture camps used for extortion in egypt and libya) or simply sold as slaves. At the same time populist parties wants you to be afraid. It is by far the easiest way to win votes. To instill unreasonable fear is the easiest way to control people and it is practiced by all dictators from hitler to erdogan. I see so much fear mongering here, but please remember that, for example, sweden has a lower crime rate now than we had before this recent wave of immigrants came here. The economy is still going strong. People are happy and the living standard of the average swede is going up. Is everything perfect and is the intigration of immigrants flaweless? No, but we will be fine and at least we do something to help. Wir schaffen das. Some sources. Crime rates: https://www.bra.se/bra/brott-och-statistik/brottsutvecklingen.html (in swedish, but you will understand the graph.) Living standards: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/sweden/ That's because the police in sweden literally leave the ghetto places with tons of migrants enforcing their own sharia law in peace rather than enforce the law on everyone. https://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-go-zones-in-sweden/nevermind that if swedes did the same they'd be arrested as neo nazi's. Hundreds and thousands of people are starving in camps in turkey and other places. You think the number of immigrants europe accepts is significant? It's not. it's like taking one or two peanuts from a bowl, and germany is being critizised for upping the amount of peanuts their taking without providing the level of security this demands. Anyone nation bringing in syrian migrants are just looking to score cheap political points in the media storm, and to let their opposition look like racists for simply being sensible. The worst part is that the people we're taking in is extending the crisis. It's like removing pressure from the valve of a nation in dire need for the manpower and the skills of the people fleeing it to solve the crisis. Not to mention it would be a lot cheaper to help them at the refugee camps. And that it makes far more sense that people culturally alike stay together, instead of scooping them from their societies and putting them somewhere with a different culture and laguage and forcing them to "integrate". You would still have to take in refugees though or otherwise you'll be stuck with refugee camps which will never go away. If we let them in legally, briefly educate them and then let them work we can a benefit from the refugee flow. You can do that with immigrants, but not with refugees, which are by definition gone "soon". You're educating another countries workforce, and if you look at how much "brief education" costs (multiple billions a year just for basic german courses), i can't help but notice that there's no benefit, ever. And language is the most important part in education, considering that something like 8 out of 10 refugees/immigrants throw their apprenticeships as as soon as they reach theory.
Then let them stay? They don't have to go back if they don't want to.
Well then you're noticing wrong
We find that an increase in the supply of refugee-country immigrants pushed less educated native workers (especially the young and low-tenured ones) to pursue less manual-intensive occupations. As a result immigration had positive effects on native unskilled wages, employment and occupational mobility.
ftp.iza.org
Or the fact that the fiscal impact of migrants is small (although it's in the UK).
www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk
Letting people stay in refugee camps has costs as well. A lot of lives lost doing nothing which only cost money to feed. And that's not even including the opportunity costs it all brings.
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On August 06 2016 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 21:41 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 06 2016 21:08 m4ini wrote:
So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them". No, I am certainly not! Stop putting words in my mouth. But you on the other hand, have to admit, that there is a serious impact of living in another country for a while. To claim no effect is ridiculous. It is mighty difficult for a 'hardcore' Muslim here in Germany to keep his family together under strict rules. Their children will see/experience what personal freedom means in hundreds of daily examples. Try putting that genie back into the bottle! Also, it is kind of ironic, that conservative people, who oftentimes bemoan the state of our beautiful language, suddenly don't want to spend much money on teaching German to people who actually live here. We might teach someone German, who maybe doesn't need it? Is that not the goal of all those Stiftungen we set up in other countries? Your vision does not match reality. It's actually way worse for their children than for them. Migrants know about the differences between the two countries, they experienced it, they lived here and there. The children only goes back to their "home countries" during the holidays and have a very disturbed vision of those countries. We see this perfectly in France, first wave migrants don't cause much trouble and are exploited ; but their children are not as disciplined as they are.
What do you mean "first wave migrants are exploited"?
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On August 06 2016 22:38 Legatus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On August 06 2016 21:41 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 06 2016 21:08 m4ini wrote:
So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them". No, I am certainly not! Stop putting words in my mouth. But you on the other hand, have to admit, that there is a serious impact of living in another country for a while. To claim no effect is ridiculous. It is mighty difficult for a 'hardcore' Muslim here in Germany to keep his family together under strict rules. Their children will see/experience what personal freedom means in hundreds of daily examples. Try putting that genie back into the bottle! Also, it is kind of ironic, that conservative people, who oftentimes bemoan the state of our beautiful language, suddenly don't want to spend much money on teaching German to people who actually live here. We might teach someone German, who maybe doesn't need it? Is that not the goal of all those Stiftungen we set up in other countries? Your vision does not match reality. It's actually way worse for their children than for them. Migrants know about the differences between the two countries, they experienced it, they lived here and there. The children only goes back to their "home countries" during the holidays and have a very disturbed vision of those countries. We see this perfectly in France, first wave migrants don't cause much trouble and are exploited ; but their children are not as disciplined as they are. What do you mean "first wave migrants are exploited"?
Smaller wage than average, harder living condition and working condition that the norm, their diploma are usually not recognized, etc.
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On August 06 2016 22:44 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 22:38 Legatus wrote:On August 06 2016 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On August 06 2016 21:41 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 06 2016 21:08 m4ini wrote:
So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them". No, I am certainly not! Stop putting words in my mouth. But you on the other hand, have to admit, that there is a serious impact of living in another country for a while. To claim no effect is ridiculous. It is mighty difficult for a 'hardcore' Muslim here in Germany to keep his family together under strict rules. Their children will see/experience what personal freedom means in hundreds of daily examples. Try putting that genie back into the bottle! Also, it is kind of ironic, that conservative people, who oftentimes bemoan the state of our beautiful language, suddenly don't want to spend much money on teaching German to people who actually live here. We might teach someone German, who maybe doesn't need it? Is that not the goal of all those Stiftungen we set up in other countries? Your vision does not match reality. It's actually way worse for their children than for them. Migrants know about the differences between the two countries, they experienced it, they lived here and there. The children only goes back to their "home countries" during the holidays and have a very disturbed vision of those countries. We see this perfectly in France, first wave migrants don't cause much trouble and are exploited ; but their children are not as disciplined as they are. What do you mean "first wave migrants are exploited"? Smaller wage than average, harder living condition and working condition that the norm, their diploma are usually not recognized, etc.
Might the lower than average wage be due to lower productivity? I don't have any data on this but it might explain at least part of the difference. Another question is how much less they get paid than the average. Maybe nobody else is willing to work at such a low rate? If it weren't for them, likely nobody would do that kind of work.
As for the recognition of degrees, I agree that this should be the norm. The only difficult case may be if they studied medicine, but even then steps should be taken to let them start working in their profession as soon as possible.
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It really shouldn't come as a surprise that first generation immigrants tend to find work in their new home economies that other, non-immigrant workers are less likely to take on. Low wages, poor conditions, and/or uniquely unpleasant job aspects all feed into this.
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On August 06 2016 22:59 Legatus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 22:44 WhiteDog wrote:On August 06 2016 22:38 Legatus wrote:On August 06 2016 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On August 06 2016 21:41 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 06 2016 21:08 m4ini wrote:
So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them". No, I am certainly not! Stop putting words in my mouth. But you on the other hand, have to admit, that there is a serious impact of living in another country for a while. To claim no effect is ridiculous. It is mighty difficult for a 'hardcore' Muslim here in Germany to keep his family together under strict rules. Their children will see/experience what personal freedom means in hundreds of daily examples. Try putting that genie back into the bottle! Also, it is kind of ironic, that conservative people, who oftentimes bemoan the state of our beautiful language, suddenly don't want to spend much money on teaching German to people who actually live here. We might teach someone German, who maybe doesn't need it? Is that not the goal of all those Stiftungen we set up in other countries? Your vision does not match reality. It's actually way worse for their children than for them. Migrants know about the differences between the two countries, they experienced it, they lived here and there. The children only goes back to their "home countries" during the holidays and have a very disturbed vision of those countries. We see this perfectly in France, first wave migrants don't cause much trouble and are exploited ; but their children are not as disciplined as they are. What do you mean "first wave migrants are exploited"? Smaller wage than average, harder living condition and working condition that the norm, their diploma are usually not recognized, etc. Might the lower than average wage be due to lower productivity? I don't have any data on this but it might explain at least part of the difference. Another question is how much less they get paid than the average. Maybe nobody else is willing to work at such a low rate? If it weren't for them, likely nobody would do that kind of work. As for the recognition of degrees, I agree that this should be the norm. The only difficult case may be if they studied medicine, but even then steps should be taken to let them start working in their profession as soon as possible.
the first big wave of immigrant in the late 60s early 70s got low wage because that was the plan : in france for example bouygues lobbied hard because that kind of workforce had no history of social clash/protest and they could easily exploit it
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On August 06 2016 23:10 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 22:59 Legatus wrote:On August 06 2016 22:44 WhiteDog wrote:On August 06 2016 22:38 Legatus wrote:On August 06 2016 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On August 06 2016 21:41 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 06 2016 21:08 m4ini wrote:
So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them". No, I am certainly not! Stop putting words in my mouth. But you on the other hand, have to admit, that there is a serious impact of living in another country for a while. To claim no effect is ridiculous. It is mighty difficult for a 'hardcore' Muslim here in Germany to keep his family together under strict rules. Their children will see/experience what personal freedom means in hundreds of daily examples. Try putting that genie back into the bottle! Also, it is kind of ironic, that conservative people, who oftentimes bemoan the state of our beautiful language, suddenly don't want to spend much money on teaching German to people who actually live here. We might teach someone German, who maybe doesn't need it? Is that not the goal of all those Stiftungen we set up in other countries? Your vision does not match reality. It's actually way worse for their children than for them. Migrants know about the differences between the two countries, they experienced it, they lived here and there. The children only goes back to their "home countries" during the holidays and have a very disturbed vision of those countries. We see this perfectly in France, first wave migrants don't cause much trouble and are exploited ; but their children are not as disciplined as they are. What do you mean "first wave migrants are exploited"? Smaller wage than average, harder living condition and working condition that the norm, their diploma are usually not recognized, etc. Might the lower than average wage be due to lower productivity? I don't have any data on this but it might explain at least part of the difference. Another question is how much less they get paid than the average. Maybe nobody else is willing to work at such a low rate? If it weren't for them, likely nobody would do that kind of work. As for the recognition of degrees, I agree that this should be the norm. The only difficult case may be if they studied medicine, but even then steps should be taken to let them start working in their profession as soon as possible. the first big wave of immigrant in the late 60s early 70s got low wage because that was the plan : in france for example bouygues lobbied hard because that kind of workforce had no history of social clash/protest and they could easily exploit it
I see. So then my question would be, had this immigration wave not occurred, would "natives" have got those same jobs but for higher salaries or would those lower-paying jobs simply never have been created in the first place?
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On August 06 2016 23:13 Legatus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2016 23:10 Makro wrote:On August 06 2016 22:59 Legatus wrote:On August 06 2016 22:44 WhiteDog wrote:On August 06 2016 22:38 Legatus wrote:On August 06 2016 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On August 06 2016 21:41 lord_nibbler wrote:On August 06 2016 21:08 m4ini wrote:
So what you're really trying to say is "we're missionaring them". No, I am certainly not! Stop putting words in my mouth. But you on the other hand, have to admit, that there is a serious impact of living in another country for a while. To claim no effect is ridiculous. It is mighty difficult for a 'hardcore' Muslim here in Germany to keep his family together under strict rules. Their children will see/experience what personal freedom means in hundreds of daily examples. Try putting that genie back into the bottle! Also, it is kind of ironic, that conservative people, who oftentimes bemoan the state of our beautiful language, suddenly don't want to spend much money on teaching German to people who actually live here. We might teach someone German, who maybe doesn't need it? Is that not the goal of all those Stiftungen we set up in other countries? Your vision does not match reality. It's actually way worse for their children than for them. Migrants know about the differences between the two countries, they experienced it, they lived here and there. The children only goes back to their "home countries" during the holidays and have a very disturbed vision of those countries. We see this perfectly in France, first wave migrants don't cause much trouble and are exploited ; but their children are not as disciplined as they are. What do you mean "first wave migrants are exploited"? Smaller wage than average, harder living condition and working condition that the norm, their diploma are usually not recognized, etc. Might the lower than average wage be due to lower productivity? I don't have any data on this but it might explain at least part of the difference. Another question is how much less they get paid than the average. Maybe nobody else is willing to work at such a low rate? If it weren't for them, likely nobody would do that kind of work. As for the recognition of degrees, I agree that this should be the norm. The only difficult case may be if they studied medicine, but even then steps should be taken to let them start working in their profession as soon as possible. the first big wave of immigrant in the late 60s early 70s got low wage because that was the plan : in france for example bouygues lobbied hard because that kind of workforce had no history of social clash/protest and they could easily exploit it I see. So then my question would be, had this immigration wave not occurred, would "natives" have got those same jobs but for higher salaries or would those lower-paying jobs simply never have been created in the first place?
interesting question, i don't know if i could provide you a decent answer but for sure the native had already higher salaries, that's why companies like bouygues etc wanted to do more profit by paying less their workers
or maybe they would have imported directly people from other part of the world for x amount of times like china is doing in africa
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EPT
