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On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent?
Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true.
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On January 12 2016 01:01 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 22:49 xM(Z wrote:
don't worry, i won't report you for name calling, i'm above that.
thing is, this is not a matter of what you said but a matter of what you didn't said. get it?.
your silence is shameful in itself. So you admit to being utterly incapable of finding any post in which I defended the position that you falsely attributed to me ( I obviously and unambiguously condemn the acts we're talking about, but nice try). Yes, I get it, you like imagining things and pretending you have a clue of what you're talking about.
coming from you, i take that statement as a joke. true, but a joke.
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On January 12 2016 04:16 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent? Show nested quote +Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. read
So it's not violent because it's dished out as punishment?
There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true.
Or in your words: "Read"
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On January 12 2016 04:19 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:16 Toadesstern wrote:On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent? Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. read So it's not violent because it's dished out as punishment?
State sanctioned violence and violence as a crime are two very different things, both can be brutal or excessive. The initial point was whether in the Arab world there is a tolerance for violence in the society, and that is definitely not the case.
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On January 12 2016 04:21 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:19 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:16 Toadesstern wrote:On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent? Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. read So it's not violent because it's dished out as punishment? State sanctioned violence and violence as a crime are two very different things, both can be brutal or excessive. The initial point was whether in the Arab world there is a tolerance for violence in the society, and that is definitely not the case.
I'm pretty sure the people being stoned don't really feel any different because one stoning is state sanctioned.
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So by that logic receiving the death penalty by the United States government is the same thing as being shot in the street? The state reserves the right to use violence, do we need to do political philosophy 101 now?
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On January 12 2016 04:19 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:16 Toadesstern wrote:On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent? Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. read So it's not violent because it's dished out as punishment?
no, but you're putting words in his mouth.
1) he's making a point of seperating the two in his post: violence from punishment and violence from people out in the streets
2) he ACTUALLY goes out of his way to say violence from punishment is through the roof in his post
3) you accuse him of saying "so you're saying their general idea of punishment is non-violent?"
It's literally the opposite of what he said. You obviously disagree with wether or not that he should make that seperation and his later point but he literally said the exact opposite of what you're accusing him of...
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I think both are equally barbaric and tragic acts, yes.
On January 12 2016 04:24 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:19 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:16 Toadesstern wrote:On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent? Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. read So it's not violent because it's dished out as punishment? no, but you're putting words in his mouth. 1) he's making a point of seperating the two in his post: violence from punishment and violence from people out in the streets 2) he ACTUALLY goes out of his way to say violence from punishment is through the roof in his post 3) you accuse him of saying "so you're saying their general idea of punishment is non-violent?"It's literally the opposite of what he said. You obviously disagree with wether or not that he should make that seperation but he literally said the exact opposite of what you're accusing him of...
No, I'm trying to express that you shouldn't differentiate between unnecessary, cruel acts just because one is codified somewhere.
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On January 12 2016 04:25 dismiss wrote:
I think both are equally barbaric and tragic acts, yes.
here's the point:
He basicly made 3 points in his posts. 1 of which you agree with, 2 of which you completly disagree with.
You picked the one point you agree with, said he claimed the literal opposite of what he said and went on with that.
I'm just saying, if you disagree with his idea that those should be seperated issues tell him that's your issue and not that he's saying there's no violence from the state...
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On January 12 2016 04:21 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:19 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:16 Toadesstern wrote:On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent? Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. read So it's not violent because it's dished out as punishment? State sanctioned violence and violence as a crime are two very different things, both can be brutal or excessive. The initial point was whether in the Arab world there is a tolerance for violence in the society, and that is definitely not the case.
This is simply utter nonsense. You are talking about systems in which women get oppressed brutally, there is slavery in SA et al. Sunni states oppress shias and shia states oppress sunnis, they both oppress other believes, nonbelievers, the gays or anybody else not 100% in line. This oppression happens with the support of the people. The blanket statement that there is no tolerance for violence in arabic societies is laughable. Warped.
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On January 12 2016 04:24 Nyxisto wrote:
So by that logic receiving the death penalty by the United States government is the same thing as being shot in the street? The state reserves the right to use violence, do we need to do political philosophy 101 now?
Apparently we do. For one, many states do not reserve the right to execute people for themselves. I hope we can agree on that being a good thing.
Secondly there's this funny thing called proportionality. In my mind doing physical harm unto someone who's not a threat, i.e. a prisoner, is never proportionate. Again, most western lawmakers are right on board with that idea since torture and capital punishment are outlawed in the civilised world.
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You guys are missing the real point why Nyquisto is wrong. We are not willing to behead immigrants for minor crimes, so his statement of their compliance to their set of laws (which don't include a lot of things we consider crimes AFAIK, which is actually also an important point) is irrelevant to their propensity to commit crimes in the West.
Unless Nyquisto also supports beheading Arabs who commit gropings.
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On January 12 2016 04:31 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:21 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 04:19 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:16 Toadesstern wrote:On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent? Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. read So it's not violent because it's dished out as punishment? State sanctioned violence and violence as a crime are two very different things, both can be brutal or excessive. The initial point was whether in the Arab world there is a tolerance for violence in the society, and that is definitely not the case. This is simply utter nonsense. You are talking about systems in which women get oppressed brutally, there is slavery in SA et al. Sunni states oppress shias and shia states oppress sunnis, they both oppress other believes, nonbelievers, the gays or anybody else not 100% in line. This oppression happens with the support of the people. The blanket statement that there is no tolerance for violence in arabic societies is laughable. Warped.
No it is not. System is system. You may not like the other one, you might think, that other systems are barbaric, but it is their system with their laws. It won´t change because there because you don´t like it here. Criticize it if you want, but thats not the point to the post you were citing.
It also doesn´t matter which system you´re in. Normally the state has the monopoly to violence. To differentiate between state apllied violence and criminals, who think they can apply violence whenever for whatever reason they think is right, is fundamental in any society (if it is not anarchy).
Why is that important? Because I tolerate (actually I appreciate) if people get shot by a cop if they run screaming "Alahu Ackbar" at them wiedling a knife, before they can harm innocents. But the prospect of some extremists hunting people for the wring reasons (e.g. skin color) is violence i cannot and will not tolerate. So yes. that difference is important. You may not like or agree with how other people get punished in theri respective states, but even you must concur that punishment is necessary if there is any working state at all.
So stop warping other peoples words, because it is you who does it.
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I don't support beheadings or capital punishment at all. The point is simply that a government using it as a punishment doesn't mean that it condones violence on a social level. It makes about as much sense as saying that Americans must hate liberty because they put people into prison, because that takes away their liberty, duh.
The Arab world is obsessed with social order, which is typical of religious societies. Violence is institutionalized and not arbitrary and in that way by definition the opposite of barbaric. These oppressive tendencies and fixation on order are issues that arise in our society as well and are worth debating. The kind of public unrest that we see in Cologne is highly atypical for these kinds of societies and shouldn't be discussed in that context. What that means for us is probably that we're going to have to respond to these incidents way stronger than we are used to and that a strong state is probably our best way to fix this behaviour.
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On January 12 2016 04:52 Elizar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 04:31 AngryMag wrote:On January 12 2016 04:21 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 04:19 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:16 Toadesstern wrote:On January 12 2016 04:11 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 04:04 Nyxisto wrote:On January 12 2016 03:54 hfglgg wrote:On January 12 2016 03:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Assaulting someone openly in most Arabic nations is, if anything, a good way to lose your head. Just because I'm not making uneducated blanket statements about all of the Arab World haha no you are only making uneducated statements about most arabic nations. go on, you are being ridiculous. :D Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. Wait, so you're saying a culture in which beheading, stoning, and lashing people are among the common punishments is not violent? Feel free to quote me out of context, the point was simply that crime in the Arab world is punished in incredibly harsh fashion, to an oppressive degree even. The crime rates in the Arab world are among the lowest on the planet. There is no culture of uninhibited violence in the Arab World, the exact opposite is true. read So it's not violent because it's dished out as punishment? State sanctioned violence and violence as a crime are two very different things, both can be brutal or excessive. The initial point was whether in the Arab world there is a tolerance for violence in the society, and that is definitely not the case. This is simply utter nonsense. You are talking about systems in which women get oppressed brutally, there is slavery in SA et al. Sunni states oppress shias and shia states oppress sunnis, they both oppress other believes, nonbelievers, the gays or anybody else not 100% in line. This oppression happens with the support of the people. The blanket statement that there is no tolerance for violence in arabic societies is laughable. Warped. No it is not. System is system. You may not like the other one, you might think, that other systems are barbaric, but it is their system with their laws. It won´t change because there because you don´t like it here. Criticize it if you want, but thats not the point to the post you were citing. It also doesn´t matter which system you´re in. Normally the state has the monopoly to violence. To differentiate between state apllied violence and criminals, who think they can apply violence whenever for whatever reason they think is right, is fundamental in any society (if it is not anarchy). Why is that important? Because I tolerate (actually I appreciate) if people get shot by a cop if they run screaming "Alahu Ackbar" at them wiedling a knife, before they can harm innocents. But the prospect of some extremists hunting people for the wring reasons (e.g. skin color) is violence i cannot and will not tolerate. So yes. that difference is important. You may not like or agree with how other people get punished in theri respective states, but even you must concur that punishment is necessary if there is any working state at all. So stop warping other peoples words, because it is you who does it.
Same nonsense. The state in SA doesn't force the private guy to hold a house slave from Malaysia, the state doesn't force the private guy to oppress his wife.
The post I quoted made the point that violence isn't tolerated in arabic societies and this is so warped and laughable it's almost hard to find words for it. The arabic states don't hold slaves, individuals within the arabic world do, same with the oppression of wives, other believes etc.
So yes the arabic world tolerates violence against many groups (be it gays, women, other believes, nonbelievers) and individuals, you need quite some mental gymnastics to deny it.
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On January 12 2016 04:53 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't support beheadings or capital punishment at all. The point is simply that a government using it as a punishment doesn't mean that it condones violence on a social level. It makes about as much sense as saying that Americans must hate liberty because they put people into prison, because that takes away their liberty, duh.
The Arab world is obsessed with social order, which is typical of religious societies. Violence is institutionalized and not arbitrary and in that way by definition the opposite of barbaric. These oppressive tendencies and fixation on order are issues that arise in our society as well and are worth debating. The kind of public unrest that we see in Cologne is highly atypical for these kinds of societies and shouldn't be discussed in that context. What that means for us is probably that we're going to have to respond to these incidents way stronger than we are used to.
I'd argue that if you go so far as to codify how often you are going to lash someone because he nicked an apple you are condoning violence. We could get into the matter of societal structure and legitimate government here, but that's probably going a bit too far. Just so much on this, the government is not an insular entity but made up off people who are part of society.
As far as public unrests go I'd like to call to attention many events during the Arab Spring as an antithesis to your statement.
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If the Arab Spring showed one thing then how bad it really gets if the public order isn't there any more. And that's really the situation the refugees face as well. They come out of incredible strict and oppressive societies into very liberal nations and think they can do what they want. And instead of starting huge cultural discussions which is not only strange to immigrants that are already here, what these people will probably react more strongly to is a harsh reaction from the state that shows them that just because they can do something doesn't mean that they should.
I am very convinced that this is more productive than having occult debates about how this Surah or that Surah or Quran quote xy influences their libido, those 17 year old kids probably have no better understanding of their religion than anybody in this thread.
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On January 12 2016 05:18 Nyxisto wrote:
If the Arab Spring showed one thing then how bad it really gets if the public order isn't there any more. And that's really the situation the refugees face as well. They come out of incredible strict and oppressive societies into very liberal nations and think they can do what they want. And instead of starting huge cultural discussions which is not only strange to immigrants that are already here, what these people will probably react more strongly to is a harsh reaction from the state that shows them that just because they can do something doesn't mean that they should.
I am very convinced that this is more productive than having occult debates about how this Surah or that Surah or Quran quote xy influences their libido, those 17 year old kids probably have no better understanding of their religion than anybody in this thread.
How do you know the offenders were kids? Stop belittling.
Didn't you just say two postings ago that arabic societies and its individuals don't tolerate violence? In this post you tell us that they commit violent acts just because they can do what they want. You have to stay consistent altleast for two posts.
How would you know about the feelings of the migrant community? It is pretty diverse and you should stop to instrumentalize it for your own ideological agenda.
Your arguments are incoherent and ideologically blinded for me you don't seem interested in a honest debate, just my two cents though.
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On January 12 2016 05:18 Nyxisto wrote:
If the Arab Spring showed one thing then how bad it really gets if the public order isn't there any more. And that's really the situation the refugees face as well. They come out of incredible strict and oppressive societies into very liberal nations and think they can do what they want. And instead of starting huge cultural discussions which is not only strange to immigrants that are already here, what these people will probably react more strongly to is a harsh reaction from the state that shows them that just because they can do something doesn't mean that they should.
I am very convinced that this is more productive than having occult debates about how this Surah or that Surah or Quran quote xy influences their libido, those 17 year old kids probably have no better understanding of their religion than anybody in this thread.
I don't doubt that it would be productive to have a thorough process of explaining culture and all that stuff to immigrants. However, you can't pretend that will be quick. And you can't even pretend it will be effective. In the mean time, we are going to continue having events like NYE all throughout Europe, as evidenced by recent reports of Sweden's response to immigrant rapes.
But as I understand, Europe as a whole should withstand these events for the sake of helping these migrants. So tell me, how much is too much? How many sexual assaults are worth helping each immigrant? If it was thousands a day you'd be opposed, what would you say is your cutoff? What increase in sexual assault rate is worth saving an immigrant to you?
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EPT
