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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
And besides, Breitbart as a whole is just weak ass covered right-wing yellow smut. How you can take that seriously is beyond me.
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On January 12 2016 19:08 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +If the Arab Spring showed one thing then how bad it really gets if the public order isn't there any more. And that's really the situation the refugees face as well. They come out of incredible strict and oppressive societies into very liberal nations and think they can do what they want. And instead of starting huge cultural discussions which is not only strange to immigrants that are already here, what these people will probably react more strongly to is a harsh reaction from the state that shows them that just because they can do something doesn't mean that they should.
That sounds like you are in favor for deportations for sexual offenders? As you said, they're used to incredible strict and harsh punishment, something that germany doesn't do. For anything. And i visited a "Jugendvollzugsanstalt" for 2 weeks 15 years ago. Our "harsh punishment" is vacation for someone like a syrian refugee (especially younger ones). And that's not populistic, that's a fact if you look at the "Rueckfallquoten" (repeated crimes?). As you (correctly) stated, those people are used to fear the punishment if they get caught. In our society, those punishments are illegal (rightfully so, i want to add). But, and here's the problem, what we consider "harsh" (jailtime) does not deter people that are used to much worse stuff. So.. In your mind, what needs to be done to show refugees that they can't do whatever they want - because, and that's also a fact and clear as nothing else, they consider our police and state weak (feel free to read up upon police officers around and especially in refugee camps). If a cop gets told "you can't do anything, merkel invited me", you might want to wonder if those people actually understand where they are. Sidenote, did you remember when we argued about how we let refugees in the country, with no background checks etc, because the queues would get to long - and i said, that ridiculously stupid? Did you see how high the percentage is of illegals in regards to NYE? edit: and preferably, that has to happen before it gets warmer, or clothing shorter. Because (also a fact), a short skirt or being out too late makes a girl a slut, hence fair game.
Slightly offtopic but I think modern penitentiary systems need some discussion or maybe even reforms. Right now the only way to make the punishment harsher is to add more years in prison to the sentence. It obviously doesn't work with certain criminals (to be clear, I mean recidivists, not immigrants). It separates them from the society for a longer period of time, which is good for other society members, but doesn't motivate them to change their lifestyle after they leave the prison, which is bad. I admit I don't know better alternatives than imprisonment but I don't like the idea that the only correct way to deal with a felon is to put him in a cell for X years.
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On January 12 2016 20:57 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Of course the media and police looked really bad, but there's certain reasons for that. The media e.g.: In Germany there's a certain code of behavior for the press. If you disregard those rules, there will be fines and the like. "Bild", "Express" e.g. regularly get fines and complaints for disregarding it. A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though. Part of that code is, when is the press allowed to mention ethnicity? Unfortunately, the criteria for that wasn't met. Thievery and groping is not enough. The rape would have been enough though, but the situation was unclear.
Bullshit. There's no laws that prevent the declaration of ethnicity, apart from if it is considered harmful to an ongoing police investigation. Not the case. + Show Spoiler +What you're talking about is the press codex, that's now law. What it actually is, is self-censoring. And many journalists are against that, not to mention.
And, actually, deceiving. If i read news of mass rapes (or mass violence, for that matter, which apparently is not a problem if it's hooligans etc), i want to know where that came from. Otherwise this gets used for systematic warping of public views - which is exactly what happened right after NYE.
That's not a good thing and should not be defended. Yes, it's supposed to "prevent prejudice", but all it does, is incite even worse so. People still assume that immigrants are responsible for certain things (like NYE, people said right away that it wasn't germans). That makes the whole "we want to protect minorities" stuff bullshit - all it does, is that you lose trust into medias as well. That's where the "Luegenpresse" stuff comes from. And honestly? While i disagree with the term, it certainly is a fact that german media heavily tries to influence the population by leaving out important facts.
We just invited more than a million refugees. I'd like to know if they misbehave, i certainly don't trust the german government to act if they don't have to fear that they'll enrage the population at some point.
edit:
10 dead and 15 injured in suicide bombing in istanbul, aimed at tourists, many of them german.
edit2: german police (edit: to be more specific, the head of the BKA) now stated that the attacks on NYE were NOT random. The offenders were communicating and planning via social media - but not organized crime (which in germany is considered enclosed groups with hierarchic structures).
And, very surprisingly, german government just issued a statement, drastically "harshening" deportation rules. Under which pretty much every offender of NYE can be deported regardless of asylum status.
And yes. That includes syrians.
I wasn't talking about law was I? The Pressekodex is a code of behavior which is overwatched by the "Presserat" who slaps you on the wrist if you don't abide. They can force you to print a correction/appology and will bring any wrongdoing worthy of it to the attention of the law. I was wrong about the fines, but i wasn't talking about law.
The point is, the Media has some light shackles on reporting about ethnicity and race. There are reasons for that in Germany, i don't have to explain i guess. It is self censorship. Is it justified? That's not point in this case: The vast majority abides the Pressekodex, though and that's what's important concerning the "Lügenpresse" propaganda.
Yeah it sounded a bit like a weak apology by them, but honestly, what did you expect to happen? I for myself don't feel lied to. I am disappointed, because a society like ours should be able to deal with facts. But i have understanding for their restraint. I prefer the french/german press over Fox News and the like any day!
About the offenders though, we shouldn't have to be forced to support people like that, that's consensus i guess. They have to be punished. I'm fine with stricter sexual offense laws anyway, but also hate crime and religious motivated violence should be punished way harder! I really hope they find the rapists from NYE, but think they left the country already.
We need some measure of control. Regristration needs to be enforced again and if asylum is requested and granted, it needs to be connected to stricter laws and an easy possibility to revoke the status in case of misbehavior. That's fine.
I just think the blind xenophobe actionism which is propagated is dumb. Freaking out about a couple of hundred offenders and some hundred bystanders looks so weak... To me this is not World News, sry. Look at the blatant racism it sparks. "We need a Purge" lmao.
Closing everything down, throwing everybody out won't solve the problem. This needs to be dealt with smarter. What would happen if we'd close the EU borders, which is impossible anyway? You gonna shoot them? Minefields? Let them starve? I don't have a sollution, but I won't ever support a xenophobe and nationalist agenda that's solving nothing. The direction it's going in at the moment unfortunately.
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On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 20:57 m4ini wrote:Of course the media and police looked really bad, but there's certain reasons for that. The media e.g.: In Germany there's a certain code of behavior for the press. If you disregard those rules, there will be fines and the like. "Bild", "Express" e.g. regularly get fines and complaints for disregarding it. A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though. Part of that code is, when is the press allowed to mention ethnicity? Unfortunately, the criteria for that wasn't met. Thievery and groping is not enough. The rape would have been enough though, but the situation was unclear.
Bullshit. There's no laws that prevent the declaration of ethnicity, apart from if it is considered harmful to an ongoing police investigation. Not the case. + Show Spoiler +What you're talking about is the press codex, that's now law. What it actually is, is self-censoring. And many journalists are against that, not to mention.
And, actually, deceiving. If i read news of mass rapes (or mass violence, for that matter, which apparently is not a problem if it's hooligans etc), i want to know where that came from. Otherwise this gets used for systematic warping of public views - which is exactly what happened right after NYE.
That's not a good thing and should not be defended. Yes, it's supposed to "prevent prejudice", but all it does, is incite even worse so. People still assume that immigrants are responsible for certain things (like NYE, people said right away that it wasn't germans). That makes the whole "we want to protect minorities" stuff bullshit - all it does, is that you lose trust into medias as well. That's where the "Luegenpresse" stuff comes from. And honestly? While i disagree with the term, it certainly is a fact that german media heavily tries to influence the population by leaving out important facts.
We just invited more than a million refugees. I'd like to know if they misbehave, i certainly don't trust the german government to act if they don't have to fear that they'll enrage the population at some point.
edit:
10 dead and 15 injured in suicide bombing in istanbul, aimed at tourists, many of them german.
edit2: german police (edit: to be more specific, the head of the BKA) now stated that the attacks on NYE were NOT random. The offenders were communicating and planning via social media - but not organized crime (which in germany is considered enclosed groups with hierarchic structures).
And, very surprisingly, german government just issued a statement, drastically "harshening" deportation rules. Under which pretty much every offender of NYE can be deported regardless of asylum status.
And yes. That includes syrians. I wasn't talking about law was I?
A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though.
I just think the blind xenophobe actionism which is propagated is dumb. Freaking out about a couple of hundred offenders and some hundred bystanders looks so weak... To me this is not World News, sry. Look at the blatant racism it sparks. "We need a Purge" lmao.
That "couple hundred offenders and stuff" is by far the largest concentration of sexual related crimes since world war 2. Really want to argue that "it's fine"? Even worse, considering that it was not random but "verabredet"?
Closing everything down, throwing everybody out won't solve the problem. This needs to be dealt with smarter. What would happen if we'd close the EU borders, which is impossible anyway? You gonna shoot them? Minefields? Let them starve? I don't have a sollution, but I won't ever support a xenophobe and nationalist agenda that's solving nothing. The direction it's going in at the moment unfortunately.
Actually, it would.
How many mass sexual attacks or sparked violence of immigrants do you see in countries that simply don't accept them?
We also don't need to enclose borders, you might want to read up on european laws - we're actually breaking laws by taking those refugees in the first place. Which is funny, since germany is by far the biggest actor when it comes to others breaking laws.
And you don't get to talk about propaganda mate, if you suggest that people that are against mass immigration are also for "minefields, shoot them" and idiotic bullshit like that. Grow up.
Thank god, the german government heavily disagrees with your opinion, as was shown like an hour ago in that press conference. With the new laws regarding deportations, every single sex offender of NYE would be deported. Any future criminal that gets sentenced more than 12 months jail will (quote) "very likely face deportation".
And that's how it should be, no other way. Regardless of what liberal people like you think, refugees are guests. We feed them, we pay for everything - the least a taxpayer can expect is that they play by the rules. If they don't (and they clearly don't, do they), off with them. Even syrians, if they so desire. It's choice. Not forced.
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On January 12 2016 23:32 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 20:57 m4ini wrote:Of course the media and police looked really bad, but there's certain reasons for that. The media e.g.: In Germany there's a certain code of behavior for the press. If you disregard those rules, there will be fines and the like. "Bild", "Express" e.g. regularly get fines and complaints for disregarding it. A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though. Part of that code is, when is the press allowed to mention ethnicity? Unfortunately, the criteria for that wasn't met. Thievery and groping is not enough. The rape would have been enough though, but the situation was unclear.
Bullshit. There's no laws that prevent the declaration of ethnicity, apart from if it is considered harmful to an ongoing police investigation. Not the case. + Show Spoiler +What you're talking about is the press codex, that's now law. What it actually is, is self-censoring. And many journalists are against that, not to mention.
And, actually, deceiving. If i read news of mass rapes (or mass violence, for that matter, which apparently is not a problem if it's hooligans etc), i want to know where that came from. Otherwise this gets used for systematic warping of public views - which is exactly what happened right after NYE.
That's not a good thing and should not be defended. Yes, it's supposed to "prevent prejudice", but all it does, is incite even worse so. People still assume that immigrants are responsible for certain things (like NYE, people said right away that it wasn't germans). That makes the whole "we want to protect minorities" stuff bullshit - all it does, is that you lose trust into medias as well. That's where the "Luegenpresse" stuff comes from. And honestly? While i disagree with the term, it certainly is a fact that german media heavily tries to influence the population by leaving out important facts.
We just invited more than a million refugees. I'd like to know if they misbehave, i certainly don't trust the german government to act if they don't have to fear that they'll enrage the population at some point.
edit:
10 dead and 15 injured in suicide bombing in istanbul, aimed at tourists, many of them german.
edit2: german police (edit: to be more specific, the head of the BKA) now stated that the attacks on NYE were NOT random. The offenders were communicating and planning via social media - but not organized crime (which in germany is considered enclosed groups with hierarchic structures).
And, very surprisingly, german government just issued a statement, drastically "harshening" deportation rules. Under which pretty much every offender of NYE can be deported regardless of asylum status.
And yes. That includes syrians. I wasn't talking about law was I? Show nested quote +
I just think the blind xenophobe actionism which is propagated is dumb. Freaking out about a couple of hundred offenders and some hundred bystanders looks so weak... To me this is not World News, sry. Look at the blatant racism it sparks. "We need a Purge" lmao.
That "couple hundred offenders and stuff" is by far the largest concentration of sexual related crimes since world war 2. Really want to argue that "it's fine"? Even worse, considering that it was not random but "verabredet"? Show nested quote +
Closing everything down, throwing everybody out won't solve the problem. This needs to be dealt with smarter. What would happen if we'd close the EU borders, which is impossible anyway? You gonna shoot them? Minefields? Let them starve? I don't have a sollution, but I won't ever support a xenophobe and nationalist agenda that's solving nothing. The direction it's going in at the moment unfortunately.
Actually, it would. How many mass sexual attacks or sparked violence of immigrants do you see in countries that simply don't accept them? + Show Spoiler +
We also don't need to enclose borders, you might want to read up on european laws - we're actually breaking laws by taking those refugees in the first place. Which is funny, since germany is by far the biggest actor when it comes to others breaking laws.
And you don't get to talk about propaganda mate, if you suggest that people that are against mass immigration are also for "minefields, shoot them" and idiotic bullshit like that. Grow up.
Thank god, the german government heavily disagrees with your opinion, as was shown like an hour ago in that press conference. With the new laws regarding deportations, every single sex offender of NYE would be deported. Any future criminal that gets sentenced more than 12 months jail will (quote) "very likely face deportation". + Show Spoiler +And that's how it should be, no other way. Regardless of what liberal people like you think, refugees are guests. We feed them, we pay for everything - the least a taxpayer can expect is that they play by the rules. If they don't (and they clearly don't, do they), off with them. Even syrians, if they so desire. It's choice. Not forced.
You could also say, "there's no immigrant caused crime in countries without immigrants". Can't really argue with that. Of course what has happened it not fine. IMHO it's still blown out of proportion. It's a tragedy what happened, there are people responsible for it and we'll be able to deal with it.
Your receptiveness seems to be affected, sorry to get personal, but you got my post really wrong. I fully support the changes. And i fully realise that laws need to be changed.
On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:we shouldn't have to be forced to support people like that, that's consensus i guess. They have to be punished. I'm fine with stricter sexual offense laws anyway, but also hate crime and religious motivated violence should be punished way harder! I really hope they find the rapists from NYE, but think they left the country already.
We need some measure of control. Regristration needs to be enforced again and if asylum is requested and granted, it needs to be connected to stricter laws and an easy possibility to revoke the status in case of misbehavior. That's fine.
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On January 12 2016 23:51 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 23:32 m4ini wrote:On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 20:57 m4ini wrote:Of course the media and police looked really bad, but there's certain reasons for that. The media e.g.: In Germany there's a certain code of behavior for the press. If you disregard those rules, there will be fines and the like. "Bild", "Express" e.g. regularly get fines and complaints for disregarding it. A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though. Part of that code is, when is the press allowed to mention ethnicity? Unfortunately, the criteria for that wasn't met. Thievery and groping is not enough. The rape would have been enough though, but the situation was unclear.
Bullshit. There's no laws that prevent the declaration of ethnicity, apart from if it is considered harmful to an ongoing police investigation. Not the case. + Show Spoiler +What you're talking about is the press codex, that's now law. What it actually is, is self-censoring. And many journalists are against that, not to mention.
And, actually, deceiving. If i read news of mass rapes (or mass violence, for that matter, which apparently is not a problem if it's hooligans etc), i want to know where that came from. Otherwise this gets used for systematic warping of public views - which is exactly what happened right after NYE.
That's not a good thing and should not be defended. Yes, it's supposed to "prevent prejudice", but all it does, is incite even worse so. People still assume that immigrants are responsible for certain things (like NYE, people said right away that it wasn't germans). That makes the whole "we want to protect minorities" stuff bullshit - all it does, is that you lose trust into medias as well. That's where the "Luegenpresse" stuff comes from. And honestly? While i disagree with the term, it certainly is a fact that german media heavily tries to influence the population by leaving out important facts.
We just invited more than a million refugees. I'd like to know if they misbehave, i certainly don't trust the german government to act if they don't have to fear that they'll enrage the population at some point.
edit:
10 dead and 15 injured in suicide bombing in istanbul, aimed at tourists, many of them german.
edit2: german police (edit: to be more specific, the head of the BKA) now stated that the attacks on NYE were NOT random. The offenders were communicating and planning via social media - but not organized crime (which in germany is considered enclosed groups with hierarchic structures).
And, very surprisingly, german government just issued a statement, drastically "harshening" deportation rules. Under which pretty much every offender of NYE can be deported regardless of asylum status.
And yes. That includes syrians. I wasn't talking about law was I? A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though.
I just think the blind xenophobe actionism which is propagated is dumb. Freaking out about a couple of hundred offenders and some hundred bystanders looks so weak... To me this is not World News, sry. Look at the blatant racism it sparks. "We need a Purge" lmao.
That "couple hundred offenders and stuff" is by far the largest concentration of sexual related crimes since world war 2. Really want to argue that "it's fine"? Even worse, considering that it was not random but "verabredet"?
Closing everything down, throwing everybody out won't solve the problem. This needs to be dealt with smarter. What would happen if we'd close the EU borders, which is impossible anyway? You gonna shoot them? Minefields? Let them starve? I don't have a sollution, but I won't ever support a xenophobe and nationalist agenda that's solving nothing. The direction it's going in at the moment unfortunately.
Actually, it would. How many mass sexual attacks or sparked violence of immigrants do you see in countries that simply don't accept them? + Show Spoiler +
We also don't need to enclose borders, you might want to read up on european laws - we're actually breaking laws by taking those refugees in the first place. Which is funny, since germany is by far the biggest actor when it comes to others breaking laws.
And you don't get to talk about propaganda mate, if you suggest that people that are against mass immigration are also for "minefields, shoot them" and idiotic bullshit like that. Grow up.
Thank god, the german government heavily disagrees with your opinion, as was shown like an hour ago in that press conference. With the new laws regarding deportations, every single sex offender of NYE would be deported. Any future criminal that gets sentenced more than 12 months jail will (quote) "very likely face deportation". + Show Spoiler +And that's how it should be, no other way. Regardless of what liberal people like you think, refugees are guests. We feed them, we pay for everything - the least a taxpayer can expect is that they play by the rules. If they don't (and they clearly don't, do they), off with them. Even syrians, if they so desire. It's choice. Not forced. You could also say, "there's no immigrant caused crime in countries without immigrants". Can't really argue with that. Of course what has happened it not fine. IMHO it's still blown out of proportion. It's a tragedy what happened, there are people responsible for it and we'll be able to deal with it. Your receptiveness seems to be affected, sorry to get personal, but you got my post really wrong. I fully support the changes. And i fully realise that laws need to be changed. Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:we shouldn't have to be forced to support people like that, that's consensus i guess. They have to be punished. I'm fine with stricter sexual offense laws anyway, but also hate crime and religious motivated violence should be punished way harder! I really hope they find the rapists from NYE, but think they left the country already.
We need some measure of control. Regristration needs to be enforced again and if asylum is requested and granted, it needs to be connected to stricter laws and an easy possibility to revoke the status in case of misbehavior. That's fine.
You know, the whole problem is that people aren't willing to "deal with it" indefinitely, there's a point where people are unwilling to put up with it anymore. That's generally what happens if someone bites the figurative hands that feeds them. 
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On January 12 2016 23:58 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 23:51 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 23:32 m4ini wrote:On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 20:57 m4ini wrote:Of course the media and police looked really bad, but there's certain reasons for that. The media e.g.: In Germany there's a certain code of behavior for the press. If you disregard those rules, there will be fines and the like. "Bild", "Express" e.g. regularly get fines and complaints for disregarding it. A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though. Part of that code is, when is the press allowed to mention ethnicity? Unfortunately, the criteria for that wasn't met. Thievery and groping is not enough. The rape would have been enough though, but the situation was unclear.
Bullshit. There's no laws that prevent the declaration of ethnicity, apart from if it is considered harmful to an ongoing police investigation. Not the case. + Show Spoiler +What you're talking about is the press codex, that's now law. What it actually is, is self-censoring. And many journalists are against that, not to mention.
And, actually, deceiving. If i read news of mass rapes (or mass violence, for that matter, which apparently is not a problem if it's hooligans etc), i want to know where that came from. Otherwise this gets used for systematic warping of public views - which is exactly what happened right after NYE.
That's not a good thing and should not be defended. Yes, it's supposed to "prevent prejudice", but all it does, is incite even worse so. People still assume that immigrants are responsible for certain things (like NYE, people said right away that it wasn't germans). That makes the whole "we want to protect minorities" stuff bullshit - all it does, is that you lose trust into medias as well. That's where the "Luegenpresse" stuff comes from. And honestly? While i disagree with the term, it certainly is a fact that german media heavily tries to influence the population by leaving out important facts.
We just invited more than a million refugees. I'd like to know if they misbehave, i certainly don't trust the german government to act if they don't have to fear that they'll enrage the population at some point.
edit:
10 dead and 15 injured in suicide bombing in istanbul, aimed at tourists, many of them german.
edit2: german police (edit: to be more specific, the head of the BKA) now stated that the attacks on NYE were NOT random. The offenders were communicating and planning via social media - but not organized crime (which in germany is considered enclosed groups with hierarchic structures).
And, very surprisingly, german government just issued a statement, drastically "harshening" deportation rules. Under which pretty much every offender of NYE can be deported regardless of asylum status.
And yes. That includes syrians. I wasn't talking about law was I? A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though.
I just think the blind xenophobe actionism which is propagated is dumb. Freaking out about a couple of hundred offenders and some hundred bystanders looks so weak... To me this is not World News, sry. Look at the blatant racism it sparks. "We need a Purge" lmao.
That "couple hundred offenders and stuff" is by far the largest concentration of sexual related crimes since world war 2. Really want to argue that "it's fine"? Even worse, considering that it was not random but "verabredet"?
Closing everything down, throwing everybody out won't solve the problem. This needs to be dealt with smarter. What would happen if we'd close the EU borders, which is impossible anyway? You gonna shoot them? Minefields? Let them starve? I don't have a sollution, but I won't ever support a xenophobe and nationalist agenda that's solving nothing. The direction it's going in at the moment unfortunately.
Actually, it would. How many mass sexual attacks or sparked violence of immigrants do you see in countries that simply don't accept them? + Show Spoiler +
We also don't need to enclose borders, you might want to read up on european laws - we're actually breaking laws by taking those refugees in the first place. Which is funny, since germany is by far the biggest actor when it comes to others breaking laws.
And you don't get to talk about propaganda mate, if you suggest that people that are against mass immigration are also for "minefields, shoot them" and idiotic bullshit like that. Grow up.
Thank god, the german government heavily disagrees with your opinion, as was shown like an hour ago in that press conference. With the new laws regarding deportations, every single sex offender of NYE would be deported. Any future criminal that gets sentenced more than 12 months jail will (quote) "very likely face deportation". + Show Spoiler +And that's how it should be, no other way. Regardless of what liberal people like you think, refugees are guests. We feed them, we pay for everything - the least a taxpayer can expect is that they play by the rules. If they don't (and they clearly don't, do they), off with them. Even syrians, if they so desire. It's choice. Not forced. You could also say, "there's no immigrant caused crime in countries without immigrants". Can't really argue with that. Of course what has happened it not fine. IMHO it's still blown out of proportion. It's a tragedy what happened, there are people responsible for it and we'll be able to deal with it. Your receptiveness seems to be affected, sorry to get personal, but you got my post really wrong. I fully support the changes. And i fully realise that laws need to be changed. On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:we shouldn't have to be forced to support people like that, that's consensus i guess. They have to be punished. I'm fine with stricter sexual offense laws anyway, but also hate crime and religious motivated violence should be punished way harder! I really hope they find the rapists from NYE, but think they left the country already.
We need some measure of control. Regristration needs to be enforced again and if asylum is requested and granted, it needs to be connected to stricter laws and an easy possibility to revoke the status in case of misbehavior. That's fine. You know, the whole point is that people aren't willing to "deal with it" indefinitely, there's a point where people are unwilling to put up with it anymore. That's generally what happens if someone bites the figurative hands that feeds them.
I'm also not willing to deal with it. We're dealing with it at the moment don't you think? Laws were changed and the public eye is on the topic and the police. And on the Media. That was about time. What else should be done?
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On January 12 2016 23:58 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 23:51 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 23:32 m4ini wrote:On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 20:57 m4ini wrote:Of course the media and police looked really bad, but there's certain reasons for that. The media e.g.: In Germany there's a certain code of behavior for the press. If you disregard those rules, there will be fines and the like. "Bild", "Express" e.g. regularly get fines and complaints for disregarding it. A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though. Part of that code is, when is the press allowed to mention ethnicity? Unfortunately, the criteria for that wasn't met. Thievery and groping is not enough. The rape would have been enough though, but the situation was unclear.
Bullshit. There's no laws that prevent the declaration of ethnicity, apart from if it is considered harmful to an ongoing police investigation. Not the case. + Show Spoiler +What you're talking about is the press codex, that's now law. What it actually is, is self-censoring. And many journalists are against that, not to mention.
And, actually, deceiving. If i read news of mass rapes (or mass violence, for that matter, which apparently is not a problem if it's hooligans etc), i want to know where that came from. Otherwise this gets used for systematic warping of public views - which is exactly what happened right after NYE.
That's not a good thing and should not be defended. Yes, it's supposed to "prevent prejudice", but all it does, is incite even worse so. People still assume that immigrants are responsible for certain things (like NYE, people said right away that it wasn't germans). That makes the whole "we want to protect minorities" stuff bullshit - all it does, is that you lose trust into medias as well. That's where the "Luegenpresse" stuff comes from. And honestly? While i disagree with the term, it certainly is a fact that german media heavily tries to influence the population by leaving out important facts.
We just invited more than a million refugees. I'd like to know if they misbehave, i certainly don't trust the german government to act if they don't have to fear that they'll enrage the population at some point.
edit:
10 dead and 15 injured in suicide bombing in istanbul, aimed at tourists, many of them german.
edit2: german police (edit: to be more specific, the head of the BKA) now stated that the attacks on NYE were NOT random. The offenders were communicating and planning via social media - but not organized crime (which in germany is considered enclosed groups with hierarchic structures).
And, very surprisingly, german government just issued a statement, drastically "harshening" deportation rules. Under which pretty much every offender of NYE can be deported regardless of asylum status.
And yes. That includes syrians. I wasn't talking about law was I? A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though.
I just think the blind xenophobe actionism which is propagated is dumb. Freaking out about a couple of hundred offenders and some hundred bystanders looks so weak... To me this is not World News, sry. Look at the blatant racism it sparks. "We need a Purge" lmao.
That "couple hundred offenders and stuff" is by far the largest concentration of sexual related crimes since world war 2. Really want to argue that "it's fine"? Even worse, considering that it was not random but "verabredet"?
Closing everything down, throwing everybody out won't solve the problem. This needs to be dealt with smarter. What would happen if we'd close the EU borders, which is impossible anyway? You gonna shoot them? Minefields? Let them starve? I don't have a sollution, but I won't ever support a xenophobe and nationalist agenda that's solving nothing. The direction it's going in at the moment unfortunately.
Actually, it would. How many mass sexual attacks or sparked violence of immigrants do you see in countries that simply don't accept them? + Show Spoiler +
We also don't need to enclose borders, you might want to read up on european laws - we're actually breaking laws by taking those refugees in the first place. Which is funny, since germany is by far the biggest actor when it comes to others breaking laws.
And you don't get to talk about propaganda mate, if you suggest that people that are against mass immigration are also for "minefields, shoot them" and idiotic bullshit like that. Grow up.
Thank god, the german government heavily disagrees with your opinion, as was shown like an hour ago in that press conference. With the new laws regarding deportations, every single sex offender of NYE would be deported. Any future criminal that gets sentenced more than 12 months jail will (quote) "very likely face deportation". + Show Spoiler +And that's how it should be, no other way. Regardless of what liberal people like you think, refugees are guests. We feed them, we pay for everything - the least a taxpayer can expect is that they play by the rules. If they don't (and they clearly don't, do they), off with them. Even syrians, if they so desire. It's choice. Not forced. You could also say, "there's no immigrant caused crime in countries without immigrants". Can't really argue with that. Of course what has happened it not fine. IMHO it's still blown out of proportion. It's a tragedy what happened, there are people responsible for it and we'll be able to deal with it. Your receptiveness seems to be affected, sorry to get personal, but you got my post really wrong. I fully support the changes. And i fully realise that laws need to be changed. On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:we shouldn't have to be forced to support people like that, that's consensus i guess. They have to be punished. I'm fine with stricter sexual offense laws anyway, but also hate crime and religious motivated violence should be punished way harder! I really hope they find the rapists from NYE, but think they left the country already.
We need some measure of control. Regristration needs to be enforced again and if asylum is requested and granted, it needs to be connected to stricter laws and an easy possibility to revoke the status in case of misbehavior. That's fine. You know, the whole problem is that people aren't willing to "deal with it" indefinitely, there's a point where people are unwilling to put up with it anymore. That's generally what happens if someone bites the figurative hands that feeds them.
Yep and somethings got to give because the vast majority of these migrants are male and 99.9% of western women don't want to be with a man that can't speak the native language, has no money and a terrible attitude towards women. This is a complete disaster and all males not with families need to be sent back.
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On January 12 2016 21:20 m4ini wrote:
In all honesty, breitbart is the US daily mail. I don't know why anyone would read or cite it anyway.
the laughs you get out of reading comments on there
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On January 13 2016 00:04 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 23:58 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 23:51 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 23:32 m4ini wrote:On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 20:57 m4ini wrote:Of course the media and police looked really bad, but there's certain reasons for that. The media e.g.: In Germany there's a certain code of behavior for the press. If you disregard those rules, there will be fines and the like. "Bild", "Express" e.g. regularly get fines and complaints for disregarding it. A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though. Part of that code is, when is the press allowed to mention ethnicity? Unfortunately, the criteria for that wasn't met. Thievery and groping is not enough. The rape would have been enough though, but the situation was unclear.
Bullshit. There's no laws that prevent the declaration of ethnicity, apart from if it is considered harmful to an ongoing police investigation. Not the case. + Show Spoiler +What you're talking about is the press codex, that's now law. What it actually is, is self-censoring. And many journalists are against that, not to mention.
And, actually, deceiving. If i read news of mass rapes (or mass violence, for that matter, which apparently is not a problem if it's hooligans etc), i want to know where that came from. Otherwise this gets used for systematic warping of public views - which is exactly what happened right after NYE.
That's not a good thing and should not be defended. Yes, it's supposed to "prevent prejudice", but all it does, is incite even worse so. People still assume that immigrants are responsible for certain things (like NYE, people said right away that it wasn't germans). That makes the whole "we want to protect minorities" stuff bullshit - all it does, is that you lose trust into medias as well. That's where the "Luegenpresse" stuff comes from. And honestly? While i disagree with the term, it certainly is a fact that german media heavily tries to influence the population by leaving out important facts.
We just invited more than a million refugees. I'd like to know if they misbehave, i certainly don't trust the german government to act if they don't have to fear that they'll enrage the population at some point.
edit:
10 dead and 15 injured in suicide bombing in istanbul, aimed at tourists, many of them german.
edit2: german police (edit: to be more specific, the head of the BKA) now stated that the attacks on NYE were NOT random. The offenders were communicating and planning via social media - but not organized crime (which in germany is considered enclosed groups with hierarchic structures).
And, very surprisingly, german government just issued a statement, drastically "harshening" deportation rules. Under which pretty much every offender of NYE can be deported regardless of asylum status.
And yes. That includes syrians. I wasn't talking about law was I? A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though.
I just think the blind xenophobe actionism which is propagated is dumb. Freaking out about a couple of hundred offenders and some hundred bystanders looks so weak... To me this is not World News, sry. Look at the blatant racism it sparks. "We need a Purge" lmao.
That "couple hundred offenders and stuff" is by far the largest concentration of sexual related crimes since world war 2. Really want to argue that "it's fine"? Even worse, considering that it was not random but "verabredet"?
Closing everything down, throwing everybody out won't solve the problem. This needs to be dealt with smarter. What would happen if we'd close the EU borders, which is impossible anyway? You gonna shoot them? Minefields? Let them starve? I don't have a sollution, but I won't ever support a xenophobe and nationalist agenda that's solving nothing. The direction it's going in at the moment unfortunately.
Actually, it would. How many mass sexual attacks or sparked violence of immigrants do you see in countries that simply don't accept them? + Show Spoiler +
We also don't need to enclose borders, you might want to read up on european laws - we're actually breaking laws by taking those refugees in the first place. Which is funny, since germany is by far the biggest actor when it comes to others breaking laws.
And you don't get to talk about propaganda mate, if you suggest that people that are against mass immigration are also for "minefields, shoot them" and idiotic bullshit like that. Grow up.
Thank god, the german government heavily disagrees with your opinion, as was shown like an hour ago in that press conference. With the new laws regarding deportations, every single sex offender of NYE would be deported. Any future criminal that gets sentenced more than 12 months jail will (quote) "very likely face deportation". + Show Spoiler +And that's how it should be, no other way. Regardless of what liberal people like you think, refugees are guests. We feed them, we pay for everything - the least a taxpayer can expect is that they play by the rules. If they don't (and they clearly don't, do they), off with them. Even syrians, if they so desire. It's choice. Not forced. You could also say, "there's no immigrant caused crime in countries without immigrants". Can't really argue with that. Of course what has happened it not fine. IMHO it's still blown out of proportion. It's a tragedy what happened, there are people responsible for it and we'll be able to deal with it. Your receptiveness seems to be affected, sorry to get personal, but you got my post really wrong. I fully support the changes. And i fully realise that laws need to be changed. On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:we shouldn't have to be forced to support people like that, that's consensus i guess. They have to be punished. I'm fine with stricter sexual offense laws anyway, but also hate crime and religious motivated violence should be punished way harder! I really hope they find the rapists from NYE, but think they left the country already.
We need some measure of control. Regristration needs to be enforced again and if asylum is requested and granted, it needs to be connected to stricter laws and an easy possibility to revoke the status in case of misbehavior. That's fine. You know, the whole point is that people aren't willing to "deal with it" indefinitely, there's a point where people are unwilling to put up with it anymore. That's generally what happens if someone bites the figurative hands that feeds them. I'm also not willing to deal with it. We're dealing with it at the moment don't you think? Laws were changed and the public eye is on the topic and the police. And on the Media. That was about time. What else should be done?
I can think of many things. There needs to be a comprehensive plan on how to deal with the refugee stream in the long term. We need dramatic increases in social housing, proper lessons to integrate refugees into German society including civic education, a reformation of the Bundesagentur für Arbeit to get people to work rather, even the state creating more jobs, than just put them into asinine programs to remove them from unemployment statistics, a healthcare overhaul to guarantee good service even with a couple more million people utilising it, and a re-balancing of the budget to account for the 10 billion euros or w/e it is in additional spending Germany has already committed to.
These things should be put for every citizen in need rather than just refugees. The real tragedy will play out when the poorer people start to feel the increased pressure, meaning cost of living, from millions of people flooding into their segment of society.
German and EU politicians have said dramatically little regarding the middle to long term consequences.
As for criminal migrants we need a way to register them at the border, deport those who hop between refugee acceptance points to try and scam the system or clear their criminal records here by simply throwing their temporary ID papers away, restrictions of movement, a way to deal with rampant petty crime around refugee centres, punishment for those skipping their German lessons as well as a media who's able to facilitate an open public discourse rather than pushing an agenda.
I'm generally quite liberal but the press response the last few days has been nothing short of disgusting. After attempting to keep the NYE events shut under a veil of silence the strategy of many (previously?) respectable newspapers has been to lash out at conservatives by accusing them of instrumentalising said tragedy to push their political agenda, irony much. How cynical do you have to be for your reaction to hundredfold sexual assault to be: "I hope the right wing political parties don't gain political capital out of this."
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@nitback: No, you don't understand it. Not all of them need to get send back. Just the ones who can't and won't live in the culture that opens their arms towards them to help.
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Trudeau making me proud by only taking Syrian families. That perspective manages to be compassionate while still being reasonable. It is just not feasible to take 100,000 young males. The sociological impacts of doing that are severe. Gender disparity has some really weird repercussions.
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On January 13 2016 00:27 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 00:04 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 23:58 dismiss wrote:On January 12 2016 23:51 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 23:32 m4ini wrote:On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:On January 12 2016 20:57 m4ini wrote:Of course the media and police looked really bad, but there's certain reasons for that. The media e.g.: In Germany there's a certain code of behavior for the press. If you disregard those rules, there will be fines and the like. "Bild", "Express" e.g. regularly get fines and complaints for disregarding it. A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though. Part of that code is, when is the press allowed to mention ethnicity? Unfortunately, the criteria for that wasn't met. Thievery and groping is not enough. The rape would have been enough though, but the situation was unclear.
Bullshit. There's no laws that prevent the declaration of ethnicity, apart from if it is considered harmful to an ongoing police investigation. Not the case. + Show Spoiler +What you're talking about is the press codex, that's now law. What it actually is, is self-censoring. And many journalists are against that, not to mention.
And, actually, deceiving. If i read news of mass rapes (or mass violence, for that matter, which apparently is not a problem if it's hooligans etc), i want to know where that came from. Otherwise this gets used for systematic warping of public views - which is exactly what happened right after NYE.
That's not a good thing and should not be defended. Yes, it's supposed to "prevent prejudice", but all it does, is incite even worse so. People still assume that immigrants are responsible for certain things (like NYE, people said right away that it wasn't germans). That makes the whole "we want to protect minorities" stuff bullshit - all it does, is that you lose trust into medias as well. That's where the "Luegenpresse" stuff comes from. And honestly? While i disagree with the term, it certainly is a fact that german media heavily tries to influence the population by leaving out important facts.
We just invited more than a million refugees. I'd like to know if they misbehave, i certainly don't trust the german government to act if they don't have to fear that they'll enrage the population at some point.
edit:
10 dead and 15 injured in suicide bombing in istanbul, aimed at tourists, many of them german.
edit2: german police (edit: to be more specific, the head of the BKA) now stated that the attacks on NYE were NOT random. The offenders were communicating and planning via social media - but not organized crime (which in germany is considered enclosed groups with hierarchic structures).
And, very surprisingly, german government just issued a statement, drastically "harshening" deportation rules. Under which pretty much every offender of NYE can be deported regardless of asylum status.
And yes. That includes syrians. I wasn't talking about law was I? A vast majority of the press abides by those laws though.
I just think the blind xenophobe actionism which is propagated is dumb. Freaking out about a couple of hundred offenders and some hundred bystanders looks so weak... To me this is not World News, sry. Look at the blatant racism it sparks. "We need a Purge" lmao.
That "couple hundred offenders and stuff" is by far the largest concentration of sexual related crimes since world war 2. Really want to argue that "it's fine"? Even worse, considering that it was not random but "verabredet"?
Closing everything down, throwing everybody out won't solve the problem. This needs to be dealt with smarter. What would happen if we'd close the EU borders, which is impossible anyway? You gonna shoot them? Minefields? Let them starve? I don't have a sollution, but I won't ever support a xenophobe and nationalist agenda that's solving nothing. The direction it's going in at the moment unfortunately.
Actually, it would. How many mass sexual attacks or sparked violence of immigrants do you see in countries that simply don't accept them? + Show Spoiler +
We also don't need to enclose borders, you might want to read up on european laws - we're actually breaking laws by taking those refugees in the first place. Which is funny, since germany is by far the biggest actor when it comes to others breaking laws.
And you don't get to talk about propaganda mate, if you suggest that people that are against mass immigration are also for "minefields, shoot them" and idiotic bullshit like that. Grow up.
Thank god, the german government heavily disagrees with your opinion, as was shown like an hour ago in that press conference. With the new laws regarding deportations, every single sex offender of NYE would be deported. Any future criminal that gets sentenced more than 12 months jail will (quote) "very likely face deportation". + Show Spoiler +And that's how it should be, no other way. Regardless of what liberal people like you think, refugees are guests. We feed them, we pay for everything - the least a taxpayer can expect is that they play by the rules. If they don't (and they clearly don't, do they), off with them. Even syrians, if they so desire. It's choice. Not forced. You could also say, "there's no immigrant caused crime in countries without immigrants". Can't really argue with that. Of course what has happened it not fine. IMHO it's still blown out of proportion. It's a tragedy what happened, there are people responsible for it and we'll be able to deal with it. Your receptiveness seems to be affected, sorry to get personal, but you got my post really wrong. I fully support the changes. And i fully realise that laws need to be changed. On January 12 2016 23:13 r00ty wrote:we shouldn't have to be forced to support people like that, that's consensus i guess. They have to be punished. I'm fine with stricter sexual offense laws anyway, but also hate crime and religious motivated violence should be punished way harder! I really hope they find the rapists from NYE, but think they left the country already.
We need some measure of control. Regristration needs to be enforced again and if asylum is requested and granted, it needs to be connected to stricter laws and an easy possibility to revoke the status in case of misbehavior. That's fine. You know, the whole point is that people aren't willing to "deal with it" indefinitely, there's a point where people are unwilling to put up with it anymore. That's generally what happens if someone bites the figurative hands that feeds them. I'm also not willing to deal with it. We're dealing with it at the moment don't you think? Laws were changed and the public eye is on the topic and the police. And on the Media. That was about time. What else should be done? I can think of many things. There needs to be a comprehensive plan on how to deal with the refugee stream in the long term. We need dramatic increases in social housing, proper lessons to integrate refugees into German society including civic education, a reformation of the Bundesagentur für Arbeit to get people to work rather, even the state creating more jobs, than just put them into asinine programs to remove them from unemployment statistics, a healthcare overhaul to guarantee good service even with a couple more million people utilising it, and a re-balancing of the budget to account for the 10 billion euros or w/e it is in additional spending Germany has already committed to. These things should be put for every citizen in need rather than just refugees. The real tragedy will play out when the poorer people start to feel the increased pressure, meaning cost of living, from millions of people flooding into their segment of society. German and EU politicians have said dramatically little regarding the middle to long term consequences. As for criminal migrants we need a way to register them at the border, deport those who hop between refugee acceptance points to try and scam the system or clear their criminal records here by simply throwing their temporary ID papers away, restrictions of movement, a way to deal with rampant petty crime around refugee centres, punishment for those skipping their German lessons as well as a media who's able to facilitate an open public discourse rather than pushing an agenda. I'm generally quite liberal but the press response the last few days has been nothing short of disgusting. After attempting to keep the NYE events shut under a veil of silence the strategy of many (previously?) respectable newspapers has been to lash out at conservatives by accusing them of instrumentalising said tragedy to push their political agenda, irony much. How cynical do you have to be for your reaction to hundredfold sexual assault to be: "I hope the right wing political parties don't gain political capital out of this."
What you are saying works for people who WANTS to integrate.
We are dealing with people with a bronze age mindset towards women, civil rights, homosexuals, etc. and with a religion that, due to sharia, strongly clashes with any non-religious law system. It's not like you are integrating peruvian car traders, korean bank traders, italian farmers, or any other example really.
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The irony of these moral relativists insisting that integration is just as simple as being as tolerant as possible and flooding them with classes is that they keep assuming it's as simple as educating these people. This might work for children, but let's take a look at ghettos in belgium and france. 2nd generation migrants who shoot up concert halls. It's not always that simple. And when these people are already in their mid 20s? Good fucking luck.
In the end, I think this situation will show itself and I don't see things changing until high impact stories like NYE continue to happen. We are already seeing violent responses in Germany to migrant rapes. As these hate crimes continue, so too will resentment and feelings of not belonging in migrants. Germany will keep getting more migrants, which are not liked by large groups of Germans. These Germans will continue to make migrants feel marginalized, leading to more violence. Eventually Merkel is going to have to admit what a failure this has all been.
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A lot of the arabs have been beat over the head with Islam to make them submissive to the government (authoritarian governments). They developed habits and have been fed propaganda for many decades that go against western ideals. Sure, integrating these people won't be trivial.
That doesn't mean the arabs themselves don't want to integrate nor does it mean these arabs are beyond help in integrating into our society.
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On January 13 2016 01:33 Deathstar wrote:
A lot of the arabs have been beat over the head with Islam to make them submissive to the government (authoritarian governments). They developed habits and have been fed propaganda for many decades that go against western ideals. Sure, integrating these people won't be trivial.
That doesn't mean the arabs themselves don't want to integrate nor does it mean these arabs are beyond help in integrating into our society.
All I'm saying is that I think the process will be made so messy by people who do not want to integrate, which go on to be fueled by angry natives, that it's all gonna fall apart from trying to take in too many at once. I see the tension getting much worse than it is now. I think the issue boils down to taking an utterly unreasonable number of migrants all at once. Eating 100 meatballs is a great idea, if you eat them over the course of a week. But eating 100 meatballs in one day is going to cause some issues.
The sexual assault is just such a giant issue, if for no other reason, the emotional response it generates in the public. The idea of protecting women from sexually deviant migrants is very easy to get people riled up over. And it just so happens that these rapists also look a lot like the guys blowing up France. The fear is already there. If the bad ones were just dipshit thieves, people would shrug it off. But every father whose daughter gets assaulted is going to be permanently against all migrants and will let people know why.
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On January 12 2016 19:08 m4ini wrote:
That sounds like you are in favor for deportations for sexual offenders? As you said, they're used to incredible strict and harsh punishment, something that germany doesn't do. For anything. And i visited a "Jugendvollzugsanstalt" for 2 weeks 15 years ago. Our "harsh punishment" is vacation for someone like a syrian refugee (especially younger ones). And that's not populistic, that's a fact if you look at the "Rueckfallquoten" (repeated crimes?).
As you (correctly) stated, those people are used to fear the punishment if they get caught. In our society, those punishments are illegal (rightfully so, i want to add). But, and here's the problem, what we consider "harsh" (jailtime) does not deter people that are used to much worse stuff.
So.. In your mind, what needs to be done to show refugees that they can't do whatever they want - because, and that's also a fact and clear as nothing else, they consider our police and state weak (feel free to read up upon police officers around and especially in refugee camps). If a cop gets told "you can't do anything, merkel invited me", you might want to wonder if those people actually understand where they are.
If the offender is Syrian we can't deport him as we (rightfully so) don't deport people to warzones, but we really need to show especially young offenders that the law in this country is actually being enforced. I saw an interview with a judge that specialized in juvenile crime yesterday and he stated that many of those offenders presumably were caught pickpocketing or harassing before and that they usually get a slap on the wrist even if they're caught half a dozen times. We don't need to whip them, but we need to scare them a little bit. Put them into a juvenile prison for a week or two the first time they break the law and enroll them in mandatory classes afterwards but we can't just let them run around again without doing anything. That doesn't apply to refugees or immigrants only, we don't take preventing crime seriously in general.
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A german juvenile prison for a 20 years old boy from Middle East is like a theme park for us :/
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On January 12 2016 22:36 Schmobutzen wrote:
And besides, Breitbart as a whole is just weak ass covered right-wing yellow smut. How you can take that seriously is beyond me.
Not taking seriously, as i said, i'm just laughing with everything german right now. True or heavily biased, it's funny to see all the conservative and liberal media clash.
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EPT
