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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
Turkey also has a small part on the European continent while lying mostly in Asia. Should they give it up? How about Egypt and Sinai since it is in Asia? I don't understand why being on a different continent is somehow so critical that it warrants special treatment. After all, continent borders are manmade. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24354 Posts
On August 06 2026 00:37 Jankisa wrote: + Show Spoiler + I mean, am I denying any of this? So far responses to this suggestion were ridicule, misconstruing of what I said and trying to say that my country shouldn't exist. + Show Spoiler + It's honestly ridiculous that you guys are pretending like this is a cut and dry case "of course this shit is Spanish" when these are the only EU borders in Africa. Period. 0 people have addressed any of the reasons I listed why I think these places are more trouble then worth, except attack it with semantics and whataboutism. Of course, you can continue to do so, I'm just telling you it's a pretty bad look. You're describing pretty standard engagement around here. I doubt any of them care. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2889 Posts
On August 06 2026 00:37 Jankisa wrote: I mean, am I denying any of this? So far responses to this suggestion were ridicule, misconstruing of what I said and trying to say that my country shouldn't exist. It's honestly ridiculous that you guys are pretending like this is a cut and dry case "of course this shit is Spanish" when these are the only EU borders in Africa. Period. 0 people have addressed any of the reasons I listed why I think these places are more trouble then worth, except attack it with semantics and whataboutism. Of course, you can continue to do so, I'm just telling you it's a pretty bad look. Is it a bother for Spain? Maybe but not more than they can handle. Is it worth having? It gives them more control over the straight when they don't have Gibraltar. But. 1000x more importantly (and what people are trying to tell you). The thinking about who land belong to because of historical reasons is a particularly fucked up can of worms. Which we don't want to reopen. Those were the really bad days. Most reasonable people are severly against land changing hands because [whatever reason]. Especially historical reasons because then all land belongs to everyone which always lead to war. Demographic reasons are only slightly better (being one of the worst offender for justifying war in the modern age). So no. It's not Moroccan clay and if nothing else Spain should tell them to fuck off so as to not set a precedent. If every country on earth would defend not only their own borders but those of all other countries we would have no wars. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22586 Posts
On August 06 2026 00:37 Jankisa wrote: Because modern borders are what they are. To assume otherwise opens a Pandora's box as old as human history, filled with blood. Every piece of ground on earth can be claimed by a dozen different people depending on how far in time your ready to go. I mean, am I denying any of this? So far responses to this suggestion were ridicule, misconstruing of what I said and trying to say that my country shouldn't exist. It's honestly ridiculous that you guys are pretending like this is a cut and dry case "of course this shit is Spanish" when these are the only EU borders in Africa. Period. 0 people have addressed any of the reasons I listed why I think these places are more trouble then worth, except attack it with semantics and whataboutism. Of course, you can continue to do so, I'm just telling you it's a pretty bad look. Could Spain give up those lands, yes ofcourse they could. The people who live there and consider themselves Spanish might disagree but fuck em. If Spain wants to give those lands away and Marocco wants them they could easily do it. But if Spain doesn't want to then that is the end of it. The alternative is endless bloody war. Is it any different from Gibraltar? Its a random piece of Britain on the European mainland, it caused a headache with Brexit and Spain would love to have it back. But its British and that's the end of it (and there was actually a big treaty signed recently that opens up the Gibraltar border. There was a very good speech by a gentlemen from Africa following the invasion of Ukraine about how Africa deals with the bullshit borders they were given by colonial powers because the alternative would see them wage bloody war to this day.+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12535 Posts
On August 06 2026 00:56 GreenHorizons wrote: You're describing pretty standard engagement around here. I doubt any of them care. I also engaged with a very calm post that wasn't answered, I assume because there was nothing to complain about within it. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1723 Posts
The rest of the examples being thrown out are not in the EU. About Giblartar, just like with these 2 enclaves, I find it absurd and think it should be part of Spain. For that matter, I think Kaliningrad should also be given back. 2. I don't think that Morocco is the aggrieved party here, I don't think they should get what "belongs to them", as I noted, I think that the current situation is untenable long term and something should be done about it, not to benefit Morocco but EU and Spanish security and interests. 3. Finally, these things can be done in a peaceful way, through negotiations and agreements, there are great examples from even recent history, UK and China were able to work out Hong Kong without any chance of war, I don't see why it's such a dangerous precedent to suggest that something similar would be a good thing for these 2 enclaves. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3208 Posts
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Jankisa
Croatia1723 Posts
On August 06 2026 19:29 LightSpectra wrote: Gibraltar is more patriotic to the UK than people living in Britain by an overwhelming margin. I don't understand why it should be given to Spain for any reason other than to make the map look more tidy. Transnistria is more patriotic of Russia then many places in Russia proper, I don't understand why it shouldn't be annexed to Russia just because it's not physically connected to it and it's in a different country. Obviously this is sarcastic, but I hope it illustrates the absurdity of your point. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2889 Posts
On August 06 2026 23:21 Jankisa wrote: Transnistria is more patriotic of Russia then many places in Russia proper, I don't understand why it shouldn't be annexed to Russia just because it's not physically connected to it and it's in a different country. Obviously this is sarcastic, but I hope it illustrates the absurdity of your point. Gibraltar is already a part of the UK, Transnistria is not a part of Russia since it's de jure a part of Moldova and de facto an independent state. If you give Transnistria to Russia you reward interference with other countries and civil war. If you let Gibraltar continue to be British you reward respect for borders and international law. There was no problem about Hong Kong since it was de jure Chinese and de factor English only because of the forced 99 year lease. The Chinese choose to simply wait the lease out, the English then honoured the fact that China had rights to the territory and handed it over without war. It's what everyone keeps telling you and you don't seem to have a good answer about it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27381 Posts
On August 06 2026 23:21 Jankisa wrote: Transnistria is more patriotic of Russia then many places in Russia proper, I don't understand why it shouldn't be annexed to Russia just because it's not physically connected to it and it's in a different country. Obviously this is sarcastic, but I hope it illustrates the absurdity of your point. How the people in said territory feel is quite an important consideration to factor in to be fair Quite complicated in my neck of the woods, less so elsewhere | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3208 Posts
On August 06 2026 23:21 Jankisa wrote: Transnistria is more patriotic of Russia then many places in Russia proper, I don't understand why it shouldn't be annexed to Russia just because it's not physically connected to it and it's in a different country. Obviously this is sarcastic, but I hope it illustrates the absurdity of your point. If we lived in a world where Russia wasn't a pariah state with rigged elections, controlled media, and blatantly imperialist wars on their neighbors, I would 100% support Transnistria voluntarily joining them. But this isn't a very good example since we're comparing Gibraltar, which has been enthusiastically British for three centuries, with an Eastern European region that's been unstable since the collapse of the USSR. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2889 Posts
On August 06 2026 23:55 WombaT wrote: How the people in said territory feel is quite an important consideration to factor in to be fair Quite complicated in my neck of the woods, less so elsewhere It's especially important when the people are oppressed by the state they live under. Hence why no one is arguing against actual colonies getting their independence. Your neck of the woods is beautiful by the way. Spent last week in NI on vacation. Derry still seems a little tense. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3208 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27381 Posts
On August 07 2026 00:11 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: It's especially important when the people are oppressed by the state they live under. Hence why no one is arguing against actual colonies getting their independence. Your neck of the woods is beautiful by the way. Spent last week in NI on vacation. Derry still seems a little tense. The fuck didn’t you let me know you were here lad?! I’ve actually only been in Derry a handful of times, rarely have reasons to go but I do love the city. But yeah 100% you can really observe and feel some of those tensions, as you can in certain areas of Belfast I do actually quite like our mural culture, provided it’s not too antagonistic. There aren’t too many places I’ve ever encountered where you can just wander around and have local history front and centre in the way we do here, it’s quite an interesting quirk | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1723 Posts
I believe my worldview is internally consistent, I stated why I think what I think, obviously most of the other folks around here think that giving these PR wins to right wingers who are on the rise and are using immigrants as the main "other" in order to seize power and enact fascist policies is a worthwhile trade-off so the wishes of about 100.000 Spaniards are respected and dangerous precedents aren't set. Obviously the world is not going to go to shit just because of these 2 enclaves, but I think that keeping them around is a net negative for the world, that's about it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22586 Posts
On August 07 2026 01:32 Jankisa wrote: I can't speak for others but if these situations didn't exist for the right wing to highlight they would just highlight something else, and if they can't find anything else they simply lie. As they constantly do.I'm bringing up examples of things not because they are perfect examples but to point out that the counter examples I've been getting aren't really the slam dunks that people posing them think they are because there is a different side to each of those. I believe my worldview is internally consistent, I stated why I think what I think, obviously most of the other folks around here think that giving these PR wins to right wingers who are on the rise and are using immigrants as the main "other" in order to seize power and enact fascist policies is a worthwhile trade-off so the wishes of about 100.000 Spaniards are respected and dangerous precedents aren't set. Obviously the world is not going to go to shit just because of these 2 enclaves, but I think that keeping them around is a net negative for the world, that's about it. I don't think we should fuck over 100.000 people and set troublesome precedents to appease a group who will fundamentally never be appeased. If governments want to blunt the rise of the right wing you don't fight immigrants, they aren't the problem. You concentrate on the underlying financial and economic issues that cause these people to look around for something to blame. You have to address souring inequality, not scary brown people. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2889 Posts
On August 07 2026 00:34 WombaT wrote: The fuck didn’t you let me know you were here lad?! I’ve actually only been in Derry a handful of times, rarely have reasons to go but I do love the city. But yeah 100% you can really observe and feel some of those tensions, as you can in certain areas of Belfast I do actually quite like our mural culture, provided it’s not too antagonistic. There aren’t too many places I’ve ever encountered where you can just wander around and have local history front and centre in the way we do here, it’s quite an interesting quirk We had a really tight schedule. Derry was really nice. So was Belfast and Portrush. I adored Ballycastle. The nature was amazing. The roads were crazy (not talking about driving on the left but 60 mph on super narrow roads with no line of sight?). Only thing I disliked. imgflip.com Edit: I have no idea why TL hates this image, I'll add a link. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States3208 Posts
On August 07 2026 01:32 Jankisa wrote: I'm bringing up examples of things not because they are perfect examples but to point out that the counter examples I've been getting aren't really the slam dunks that people posing them think they are because there is a different side to each of those. I believe my worldview is internally consistent, I stated why I think what I think, obviously most of the other folks around here think that giving these PR wins to right wingers who are on the rise and are using immigrants as the main "other" in order to seize power and enact fascist policies is a worthwhile trade-off so the wishes of about 100.000 Spaniards are respected and dangerous precedents aren't set. Obviously the world is not going to go to shit just because of these 2 enclaves, but I think that keeping them around is a net negative for the world, that's about it. I appreciate your internal consistency, I just think the case for turning over Gibraltar is immensely weaker than Ceuta. They're not really comparable despite both being about Spain. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27381 Posts
On August 07 2026 02:12 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: We had a really tight schedule. Derry was really nice. So was Belfast and Portrush. I adored Ballycastle. The nature was amazing. The roads were crazy (not talking about driving on the left but 60 mph on super narrow roads with no line of sight?). Only thing I disliked. imgflip.com Edit: I have no idea why TL hates this image, I'll add a link. Oh sick you got up to Portrush! All me folks are from up there, nice area of the world | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1723 Posts
Generally I've been pushing back on all kinds of "but what about" rhetoric here because I honestly believe that these 2 enclaves are pretty much unique, to me looking at the situation there it seems like the trend line is going in a bad direction and I don't really see things getting better, only worse. It seems to me that for most people, even liberals/progressives this is a non-issue, or at least not an issue worth proposing any solution for, since I'm the only one who at any point suggested anything that would change the status quo. I'm not saying it's a perfect or even a good solution, I'm just kind of irked by the attack tone most people came after it, especially since no one else proposed any alternative or even acknowledged the issue as a serious thing that needs to be addressed. | ||
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