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On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
Yes they swam but they weren't uniformly distributed over like 20km of continuous circular beach. They swam/otherwise water traversed around the south border crossing. They have to leave the sea at some point because the sea is not the final destination. Here:
Besides which having failed to block the influx, they've sent the army out to return people and restore order, and the military is armed with guns already. But the earlier you block it the less chance it can ever get out of hand.
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
I mean, I can rephrase the exact reasoning from my post but I might as well just post it again since it directly answers your questions:
On August 04 2026 00:15 Jankisa wrote: I personally believe that Spain should give up it's enclaves, I understand those places mean something to them but they are a colonial leftover that is causing huge issues and will continue to cause them indefinitely.
We are talking about 160.000 people, out of them I believe under 100.000 are natively Spanish.
Offer to buy their properties out or replace them with a place in Spain and give these enclaves to the host countries, who wants to stay can, and perhaps a deal can be struck with Morocco to maintain self governance for these places.
This problem is never going to go away and now that the right wingers saw how well these kind of scenes track you can bet your ass that they will start happening more often.
If the current Spanish goverment is as "woke" and for justice as they like to present themselves, this should be the way.
Obviously I'm way oversimplifying this but to me, this seems like the only reasonable long term solution.
I'm curious what do our Spaniard members think of this?
Of course, if you want to let this go on, have people dying on regular basis and have all this inter EU drama over it, from what I got from your reply, your reasoning to keep them is basically: because they are ours.
OK, sure, they are, they are also very problematic, politically, morally and from a PR perspective. These things will keep on happening and if you are OK with 20 + people dying there every few years, different populist countries calling for excluding Spain from Schengen, these scenes stoking anti-immigrant hate, that is OK, but I think you should have a better reason then "well they are ours".
I also never said they should be given up because Morocco wants them, I'm looking at this from the lens of what is best for EU.
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
You are just pissed off because Spain handled it well and you would have prefered them machine gunning the brown people. Minimum deaths, no risk of entry to the mainland, no entry in to Schengen, 46k deported in 48h hours and all of them in another 48h.
The thing is that border control is a two nation job. 60k people don't just show up at the border at the same time. The border section in Ceuta is one of the most fortified in the world when it comes to non militarised borders. But you don't stop 60k people coming at once with non lethal weapons.
You say they didn't know who were coming. But they did for two reasons:
1) they had eyes. 2) Marroco wouldn't have let 60k armed militants gather at their internal border because that would have been a declaration of war.
All the same Israel had a militarised border and couldn't stop a much smaller incursion.
All in all this a provocation from Marroco and not a border problem. Spain refused to take the bait and adequately solved the problem.
And the rest of Europe now has egg on their face. Especially Italy that are the worst offenders when it comes to border security.
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
I mean, I can rephrase the exact reasoning from my post but I might as well just post it again since it directly answers your questions:
On August 04 2026 00:15 Jankisa wrote: I personally believe that Spain should give up it's enclaves, I understand those places mean something to them but they are a colonial leftover that is causing huge issues and will continue to cause them indefinitely.
We are talking about 160.000 people, out of them I believe under 100.000 are natively Spanish.
Offer to buy their properties out or replace them with a place in Spain and give these enclaves to the host countries, who wants to stay can, and perhaps a deal can be struck with Morocco to maintain self governance for these places.
This problem is never going to go away and now that the right wingers saw how well these kind of scenes track you can bet your ass that they will start happening more often.
If the current Spanish goverment is as "woke" and for justice as they like to present themselves, this should be the way.
Obviously I'm way oversimplifying this but to me, this seems like the only reasonable long term solution.
I'm curious what do our Spaniard members think of this?
Of course, if you want to let this go on, have people dying on regular basis and have all this inter EU drama over it, from what I got from your reply, your reasoning to keep them is basically: because they are ours.
OK, sure, they are, they are also very problematic, politically, morally and from a PR perspective. These things will keep on happening and if you are OK with 20 + people dying there every few years, different populist countries calling for excluding Spain from Schengen, these scenes stoking anti-immigrant hate, that is OK, but I think you should have a better reason then "well they are ours".
I also never said they should be given up because Morocco wants them, I'm looking at this from the lens of what is best for EU.
What do the people in Ceuta and Melilla think about this?
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
You are just pissed off because Spain handled it well and you would have prefered them machine gunning the brown people. Minimum deaths, no risk of entry to the mainland, no entry in to Schengen, 46k deported in 48h hours and all of them in another 48h.
I just said nonlethal. You quoted it. Maybe this is a language barrier thing where the Swedish language has an inflammable = flammable thing about lethality?
On August 05 2026 00:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: The thing is that border control is a two nation job. 60k people don't just show up at the border at the same time. The border section in Ceuta is one of the most fortified in the world when it comes to non militarised borders. But you don't stop 60k people coming at once with non lethal weapons.
Yet somehow you can get them to leave with lethal weapons without killing them.
I agree it's a two nation job so Morocco dropped the ball, at least, as well.
On August 05 2026 00:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: You say they didn't know who were coming. But they did for two reasons:
1) they had eyes. 2) Marroco wouldn't have let 60k armed militants gather at their internal border because that would have been a declaration of war.
They do not have to be all 60k uniformed paramilitary soldiers for it to be a glaring weakness.
If you let a mob of 60k people storm a place with 85k people and a military garrison of 3,000, and even 1% of those people are literal terrorists (600), you have an instant powderkeg disaster. You do not know who is embedded. If 0.1% of them are trained agents who want to provoke an international incident and war, you have a deep problem. If 10% are agitators you have a problem. And you may never see it.
You want to stop them earlier, as soon as possible, for all of the above reasons AND you prevent humanitarian tragedies like 60 people among them drowning along the way, or dying of humanitarian causes in a crisis if Morocco refused to cooperate in taking them back.
On August 05 2026 00:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: All the same Israel had a militarised border and couldn't stop a much smaller incursion.
That much smaller incursion, it wasn't some naive asylum seekers who saw a Facebook post, was it. It had some bad consequences even though Israel also had "eyes."
On August 05 2026 00:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: All in all this a provocation from Marroco and not a border problem. Spain refused to take the bait and adequately solved the problem.
And the rest of Europe now has egg on their face. Especially Italy that are the worst offenders when it comes to border security.
Provocations are deliberate right? Morocco did this on purpose, the government, or some faction of it? Your view sounds like it's everyone's fault except Spain's (i.e. Italy and the rest of Europe can't handle borders, Spain can, but Morocco provoked them). I don't particularly know who to trust, but I don't get what would the motive behind such a provocation be?
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
You are just pissed off because Spain handled it well and you would have prefered them machine gunning the brown people. Minimum deaths, no risk of entry to the mainland, no entry in to Schengen, 46k deported in 48h hours and all of them in another 48h.
I just said nonlethal. You quoted it. Maybe this is a language barrier thing where the Swedish language has an inflammable = flammable thing about lethality?
On August 05 2026 00:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: The thing is that border control is a two nation job. 60k people don't just show up at the border at the same time. The border section in Ceuta is one of the most fortified in the world when it comes to non militarised borders. But you don't stop 60k people coming at once with non lethal weapons.
Yet somehow you can get them to leave with lethal weapons without killing them.
I agree it's a two nation job so Morocco dropped the ball, at least, as well.
On August 05 2026 00:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: You say they didn't know who were coming. But they did for two reasons:
1) they had eyes. 2) Marroco wouldn't have let 60k armed militants gather at their internal border because that would have been a declaration of war.
They do not have to be all 60k uniformed paramilitary soldiers for it to be a glaring weakness.
If you let a mob of 60k people storm a place with 85k people and a military garrison of 3,000, and even 1% of those people are literal terrorists (600), you have an instant powderkeg disaster. You do not know who is embedded. If 0.1% of them are trained agents who want to provoke an international incident and war, you have a deep problem. If 10% are agitators you have a problem. And you may never see it.
You want to stop them earlier, as soon as possible, for all of the above reasons AND you prevent humanitarian tragedies like 60 people among them drowning along the way, or dying of humanitarian causes in a crisis if Morocco refused to cooperate in taking them back.
On August 05 2026 00:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: All the same Israel had a militarised border and couldn't stop a much smaller incursion.
That much smaller incursion, it wasn't some naive asylum seekers who saw a Facebook post, was it. It had some bad consequences even though Israel also had "eyes."
On August 05 2026 00:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: All in all this a provocation from Marroco and not a border problem. Spain refused to take the bait and adequately solved the problem.
And the rest of Europe now has egg on their face. Especially Italy that are the worst offenders when it comes to border security.
Provocations are deliberate right? Morocco did this on purpose, the government, or some faction of it? Your view sounds like it's everyone's fault except Spain's (i.e. Italy and the rest of Europe can't handle borders, Spain can, but Morocco provoked them). I don't particularly know who to trust, but I don't get what would the motive behind such a provocation be?
Morocco hates Algeria. Spain and Algeria just signed an LNG deal the week before with the Spanish PM visiting Algeria.
The how
Spanish intelligence sources told El País that the roots of the influx probably lay in a hoax that had swiftly spread across social media after a Spanish supreme court ruling that migrants arriving by sea could not be summarily deported. As the hoax gained steam online, Moroccan border surveillance dwindled to a minimum until it was completely lifted late last week, allowing tens of thousands of people through.
The why
However, the crossing could be linked to the rivalry between Morocco and Algeria, and a recent trip by the Spanish prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, to Algiers.
Not the first time they have weaponized refuges
The last mass border crossing, in May 2021, took place after Morocco loosened border controls during a diplomatic row with Spain over Spain’s decision to allow the leader of the Western Sahara independence movement, the Polisario Front, to be treated for Covid-19 in Spain.
We will not go into the theories about Israeli involvement.
Edit: 3k security will not stop 60k refuges with beanbags and tear gas. They might stop a small part of them but the majority will get through. And you have a serious risk of escalation into violence and if you get *that* the only way to go is lethal force. Or you keep calm, wait for reinforcements and more importantly keep the situation under control with room for escalation. If 1 % of the involved are indeed terrorists you can start shooting at that point and as a bonus you have most of your security force ready since not all of them are at the border trying to bean bag refuges.
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
I mean, I can rephrase the exact reasoning from my post but I might as well just post it again since it directly answers your questions:
On August 04 2026 00:15 Jankisa wrote: I personally believe that Spain should give up it's enclaves, I understand those places mean something to them but they are a colonial leftover that is causing huge issues and will continue to cause them indefinitely.
We are talking about 160.000 people, out of them I believe under 100.000 are natively Spanish.
Offer to buy their properties out or replace them with a place in Spain and give these enclaves to the host countries, who wants to stay can, and perhaps a deal can be struck with Morocco to maintain self governance for these places.
This problem is never going to go away and now that the right wingers saw how well these kind of scenes track you can bet your ass that they will start happening more often.
If the current Spanish goverment is as "woke" and for justice as they like to present themselves, this should be the way.
Obviously I'm way oversimplifying this but to me, this seems like the only reasonable long term solution.
I'm curious what do our Spaniard members think of this?
Of course, if you want to let this go on, have people dying on regular basis and have all this inter EU drama over it, from what I got from your reply, your reasoning to keep them is basically: because they are ours.
OK, sure, they are, they are also very problematic, politically, morally and from a PR perspective. These things will keep on happening and if you are OK with 20 + people dying there every few years, different populist countries calling for excluding Spain from Schengen, these scenes stoking anti-immigrant hate, that is OK, but I think you should have a better reason then "well they are ours".
I also never said they should be given up because Morocco wants them, I'm looking at this from the lens of what is best for EU.
What do the people in Ceuta and Melilla think about this?
From what I can find online, it seems like most of them consider themselves Spaniards and Europeans and wouldn't want to leave.
I am personally not a big fan of that kind of an argument, most Israeli settlers think that their villages in West Bank are their homes and would never leave despite them being less then 30 years old.
I get it's not the same since these enclaves have been a part of Spain for like 500 years, but given the European colonial history with Africa, the fact that territorially these places being Spain proper makes no sense and, again, the obvious trend that these will become bigger and bigger political hotspots as climate change ravages Africa more and more I think that feelings of less then 100.000 people matter a bit less then those factors.
Of course, if an agreement could be worked out that these territories still hold autonomy but aren't part of Schengen and Spain proper and everyone gets to stay and be happy, but they aren't natural magnets for these kind of events, that would be an ideal outcome.
The way I see it, it is clearly unjust to ask of someone who lives in a place to go live in another place against their will. So in order to be in favor of this I would need it to happen in the process of fixing a larger injustice. Clearly in the case of the Israeli settlers there is a larger injustice going on, they're engaging in ethnic cleansing, so it's fine with me if we engage in some injustice against them in the process of getting them to no longer do that. You don't have to go that far, I don't think it's fair to say for example that the French people of New Caledonia are committing a genocide against the Kanak, but even then there is still a clear ongoing injustice with how the natives are treated so I would also favor kicking the French out. If none of this is happening, then, meh... I don't see a good argument for kicking white people out of New Zealand for example. Feels like we're creating new problems for an insufficient reason.
Ceuta and Melilla have been part of Spain since before Morocco was Morocco (by more than one definition). So the justification is mainly "it looks like it should be our clay on the map".
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
I mean, I can rephrase the exact reasoning from my post but I might as well just post it again since it directly answers your questions:
On August 04 2026 00:15 Jankisa wrote: I personally believe that Spain should give up it's enclaves, I understand those places mean something to them but they are a colonial leftover that is causing huge issues and will continue to cause them indefinitely.
We are talking about 160.000 people, out of them I believe under 100.000 are natively Spanish.
Offer to buy their properties out or replace them with a place in Spain and give these enclaves to the host countries, who wants to stay can, and perhaps a deal can be struck with Morocco to maintain self governance for these places.
This problem is never going to go away and now that the right wingers saw how well these kind of scenes track you can bet your ass that they will start happening more often.
If the current Spanish goverment is as "woke" and for justice as they like to present themselves, this should be the way.
Obviously I'm way oversimplifying this but to me, this seems like the only reasonable long term solution.
I'm curious what do our Spaniard members think of this?
Of course, if you want to let this go on, have people dying on regular basis and have all this inter EU drama over it, from what I got from your reply, your reasoning to keep them is basically: because they are ours.
OK, sure, they are, they are also very problematic, politically, morally and from a PR perspective. These things will keep on happening and if you are OK with 20 + people dying there every few years, different populist countries calling for excluding Spain from Schengen, these scenes stoking anti-immigrant hate, that is OK, but I think you should have a better reason then "well they are ours".
I also never said they should be given up because Morocco wants them, I'm looking at this from the lens of what is best for EU.
I asked because what you said in your post didn't make any sense, and still doesn't. Ceuta and Melilla being a part of Spain has about as much to do with colonization as Granada being a part of Spain. So should Ceuta, Melilla and Granada belong to Morocco? And why are we stopping in the late 15th century? We should probably split Spain up into separate Iberic tribes, with a smattering of Greek, Phoenician and Celtic settlements along the coast, because that's the approximate state Spain was in before it was "colonized by foreign invaders" (Romans) for the first time.
Giving the same treatment to Croatia, I suspect most islands would be independent Greek city states, whereas the mainland would probably need to be forcefully united with northern Italy and Slovenia to be Liburnia. This sounds like a properly sane way to go about modern geopolitics, but it's really the only way of undoing the detrimental effects of Roman colonialism.
As for the "people dying on regular basis", I must necessarily point you to the far greater problems of people trying to reach Lampedusa, Malta, Lesbos, and even the Canary Islands. Obviously what happened was a tragedy, and 75 deaths is awful. On the other hand, it's quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of "Fortress Europe". In the public interest, we should cede Lampedusa, Pantelleria, Malta, and probably Sicily to Tunisia and Libya, because I am sure this will stop desperate people from trying to reach Europe by extremely unsafe methods!
Finally, one more thing that we absolutely know will stop Vox (the Spanish equivalent of those populists who want to throw Spain out of Schengen) is to give up territory, because there is nothing fascists like more than to give up national territory. Vox will instantly disband and it'll lead to a humiliating defeat for the PP when Pedro Sanchez rolls out the genius policy of just giving land to Morocco. It'll take the wind right out of their sails, as you can see by Meloni moving to gift Italy's southern islands to Tunisia and how popular it is among her base!
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
Yes they swam but they weren't uniformly distributed over like 20km of continuous circular beach. They swam/otherwise water traversed around the south border crossing. They have to leave the sea at some point because the sea is not the final destination. Here:
Besides which having failed to block the influx, they've sent the army out to return people and restore order, and the military is armed with guns already. But the earlier you block it the less chance it can ever get out of hand.
Oh yes, you're right. Because when Morocco sets up water cannons on the street to the sea to stop migrants from jumping in, it's identical to Spain aiming water cannons at people swimming. Same impact, same risks: they take a bludgeoning, fall to the ground, turn around and go home. I'm glad be we have galaxy brain oBlade to point out that if Morocco can aim water cannons at them, then so should Spain be able to! How could the policia nacional NOT have thought of mounting some water cannons on the Tarajal breakwater. I mean, after swimming a few km and faced with the blast from a water cannon, I am sure they'd just turn around and swim back safely! In fact, it might even have prevented some of those 75 deaths, because they no doubt died from sunburn when relaxing on the Ceuta beach, having made it across the border, and defintely couldn't have died from drowning. Preventing them from reaching the beach would've prevented those deaths. We really should just call you oBrain at this point.
I mean, you should be put in charge of the Policia Nacional at this point. It could all have been prevented if only oBlade had been in charge of holding random spots of land inside Morocco with Spanish police forces. That is the clear route to success and not an escalation of the major international inicident already underway!
Alternatively, you're talking about the roads inside Ceuta, after the migrants have already entered the territory? Well, news flash, at that point they were already in the country. Further on down those roads is where they were being identified, processed, and sent back out the front door, thank you kindly. Yes, it looked bad. Yes, far too many people died because it turns out swimming a few kilometers in open water is not actually all that easy. And yes, no doubt the Ceuties had a pretty rough time of it for a few days, and it's no doubt still a mess. But compared to the floods in the winter and the forest fires over the last few weeks, Ceuta is pretty low down on the "well, that town is fucked" scale.
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
Yes they swam but they weren't uniformly distributed over like 20km of continuous circular beach. They swam/otherwise water traversed around the south border crossing. They have to leave the sea at some point because the sea is not the final destination. Here:
Besides which having failed to block the influx, they've sent the army out to return people and restore order, and the military is armed with guns already. But the earlier you block it the less chance it can ever get out of hand.
Oh yes, you're right. Because when Morocco sets up water cannons on the street to the sea to stop migrants from jumping in, it's identical to Spain aiming water cannons at people swimming. Same impact, same risks: they take a bludgeoning, fall to the ground, turn around and go home. I'm glad be we have galaxy brain oBlade to point out that if Morocco can aim water cannons at them, then so should Spain be able to! How could the policia nacional NOT have thought of mounting some water cannons on the Tarajal breakwater. I mean, after swimming a few km and faced with the blast from a water cannon, I am sure they'd just turn around and swim back safely! In fact, it might even have prevented some of those 75 deaths, because they no doubt died from sunburn when relaxing on the Ceuta beach, having made it across the border, and defintely couldn't have died from drowning. Preventing them from reaching the beach would've prevented those deaths. We really should just call you oBrain at this point.
You've debunked spraying people in the ocean with water cannons which I never advocated, and I specifically talked about preventing drowning.
The earlier you stop this, the fewer people ever drown. So we don't have an aftermath of "That went pretty well only 75 human beings drowned." What this looks like is not "spray people with water cannons so they drown in the ocean." It looks more like "Oh shit there's a huge traffic jam because the first 500 people are getting tear gassed so they can't even get up the very first ridge. I guess the other 59,500 of us should reconsider starting this swim."
On August 05 2026 08:45 Acrofales wrote: I mean, you should be put in charge of the Policia Nacional at this point. It could all have been prevented if only oBlade had been in charge of holding random spots of land inside Morocco with Spanish police forces. That is the clear route to success and not an escalation of the major international inicident already underway!
No, they should have held land in Cueta better.
They potentially should have entered Morocco to physically corral the mob back across, now that you mention the possibility, or could have been morally justified, if Morocco really had a hand in allowing this to happen. Of course just going into another country without permission is supposed to be a violation, but people in glass houses can't throw stones. You bring up an interesting point. Not my idea but I find it hard to rebut.
On August 05 2026 08:45 Acrofales wrote: Alternatively, you're talking about the roads inside Ceuta, after the migrants have already entered the territory? Well, news flash, at that point they were already in the country. Further on down those roads is where they were being identified, processed, and sent back out the front door, thank you kindly. Yes, it looked bad. Yes, far too many people died because it turns out swimming a few kilometers in open water is not actually all that easy. And yes, no doubt the Ceuties had a pretty rough time of it for a few days, and it's no doubt still a mess. But compared to the floods in the winter and the forest fires over the last few weeks, Ceuta is pretty low down on the "well, that town is fucked" scale.
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
Yes they swam but they weren't uniformly distributed over like 20km of continuous circular beach. They swam/otherwise water traversed around the south border crossing. They have to leave the sea at some point because the sea is not the final destination. Here:
Besides which having failed to block the influx, they've sent the army out to return people and restore order, and the military is armed with guns already. But the earlier you block it the less chance it can ever get out of hand.
Oh yes, you're right. Because when Morocco sets up water cannons on the street to the sea to stop migrants from jumping in, it's identical to Spain aiming water cannons at people swimming. Same impact, same risks: they take a bludgeoning, fall to the ground, turn around and go home. I'm glad be we have galaxy brain oBlade to point out that if Morocco can aim water cannons at them, then so should Spain be able to! How could the policia nacional NOT have thought of mounting some water cannons on the Tarajal breakwater. I mean, after swimming a few km and faced with the blast from a water cannon, I am sure they'd just turn around and swim back safely! In fact, it might even have prevented some of those 75 deaths, because they no doubt died from sunburn when relaxing on the Ceuta beach, having made it across the border, and defintely couldn't have died from drowning. Preventing them from reaching the beach would've prevented those deaths. We really should just call you oBrain at this point.
You've debunked spraying people in the ocean with water cannons which I never advocated, and I specifically talked about preventing drowning.
The earlier you stop this, the fewer people ever drown. So we don't have an aftermath of "That went pretty well only 75 human beings drowned." What this looks like is not "spray people with water cannons so they drown in the ocean." It looks more like "Oh shit there's a huge traffic jam because the first 500 people are getting tear gassed so they can't even get up the very first ridge. I guess the other 59,500 of us should reconsider starting this swim."
On August 05 2026 08:45 Acrofales wrote: I mean, you should be put in charge of the Policia Nacional at this point. It could all have been prevented if only oBlade had been in charge of holding random spots of land inside Morocco with Spanish police forces. That is the clear route to success and not an escalation of the major international inicident already underway!
No, they should have held land in Cueta better.
They potentially should have entered Morocco to physically corral the mob back across, now that you mention the possibility, or could have been morally justified, if Morocco really had a hand in allowing this to happen. Of course just going into another country without permission is supposed to be a violation, but people in glass houses can't throw stones. You bring up an interesting point. Not my idea but I find it hard to rebut.
On August 05 2026 08:45 Acrofales wrote: Alternatively, you're talking about the roads inside Ceuta, after the migrants have already entered the territory? Well, news flash, at that point they were already in the country. Further on down those roads is where they were being identified, processed, and sent back out the front door, thank you kindly. Yes, it looked bad. Yes, far too many people died because it turns out swimming a few kilometers in open water is not actually all that easy. And yes, no doubt the Ceuties had a pretty rough time of it for a few days, and it's no doubt still a mess. But compared to the floods in the winter and the forest fires over the last few weeks, Ceuta is pretty low down on the "well, that town is fucked" scale.
What terrorists ? The fuck are you talking about? This has been an ongoing problem between Morocco and Spain for a very long time and never has scalated in such a way since it's used to pressure Spain. If terrorism happened, Morocco would not be able to use It like It does.
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
I mean, I can rephrase the exact reasoning from my post but I might as well just post it again since it directly answers your questions:
On August 04 2026 00:15 Jankisa wrote: I personally believe that Spain should give up it's enclaves, I understand those places mean something to them but they are a colonial leftover that is causing huge issues and will continue to cause them indefinitely.
We are talking about 160.000 people, out of them I believe under 100.000 are natively Spanish.
Offer to buy their properties out or replace them with a place in Spain and give these enclaves to the host countries, who wants to stay can, and perhaps a deal can be struck with Morocco to maintain self governance for these places.
This problem is never going to go away and now that the right wingers saw how well these kind of scenes track you can bet your ass that they will start happening more often.
If the current Spanish goverment is as "woke" and for justice as they like to present themselves, this should be the way.
Obviously I'm way oversimplifying this but to me, this seems like the only reasonable long term solution.
I'm curious what do our Spaniard members think of this?
Of course, if you want to let this go on, have people dying on regular basis and have all this inter EU drama over it, from what I got from your reply, your reasoning to keep them is basically: because they are ours.
OK, sure, they are, they are also very problematic, politically, morally and from a PR perspective. These things will keep on happening and if you are OK with 20 + people dying there every few years, different populist countries calling for excluding Spain from Schengen, these scenes stoking anti-immigrant hate, that is OK, but I think you should have a better reason then "well they are ours".
I also never said they should be given up because Morocco wants them, I'm looking at this from the lens of what is best for EU.
I asked because what you said in your post didn't make any sense, and still doesn't. Ceuta and Melilla being a part of Spain has about as much to do with colonization as Granada being a part of Spain. So should Ceuta, Melilla and Granada belong to Morocco? And why are we stopping in the late 15th century? We should probably split Spain up into separate Iberic tribes, with a smattering of Greek, Phoenician and Celtic settlements along the coast, because that's the approximate state Spain was in before it was "colonized by foreign invaders" (Romans) for the first time.
Giving the same treatment to Croatia, I suspect most islands would be independent Greek city states, whereas the mainland would probably need to be forcefully united with northern Italy and Slovenia to be Liburnia. This sounds like a properly sane way to go about modern geopolitics, but it's really the only way of undoing the detrimental effects of Roman colonialism.
As for the "people dying on regular basis", I must necessarily point you to the far greater problems of people trying to reach Lampedusa, Malta, Lesbos, and even the Canary Islands. Obviously what happened was a tragedy, and 75 deaths is awful. On the other hand, it's quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of "Fortress Europe". In the public interest, we should cede Lampedusa, Pantelleria, Malta, and probably Sicily to Tunisia and Libya, because I am sure this will stop desperate people from trying to reach Europe by extremely unsafe methods!
Finally, one more thing that we absolutely know will stop Vox (the Spanish equivalent of those populists who want to throw Spain out of Schengen) is to give up territory, because there is nothing fascists like more than to give up national territory. Vox will instantly disband and it'll lead to a humiliating defeat for the PP when Pedro Sanchez rolls out the genius policy of just giving land to Morocco. It'll take the wind right out of their sails, as you can see by Meloni moving to gift Italy's southern islands to Tunisia and how popular it is among her base!
I'm not really interested in replying to a "your country is not even a country if you dare to suggest that a territory on another continent is not 100 % part of my country" argument you tried to make, makes you look like you have a lot more in common with VOX then you'd like to admit.
Then you move on to suggest a bunch of islands that again aren't on a different continent are also problematic when no one is trying to make that argument.
For your final argument, it's basically "we must appease fascists and make sure never to do anything they'd dislike because it wouldn't play well politically", very logical, as we know appeasing fascists has historically always worked, right?
On August 02 2026 06:29 Sent. wrote: It's a non issue for simple folk and somehow a massive problem for the 22 EU leaders who signed the letter. Even if you want to disregard the Italian initiative they still had Danish officials working with them and 20 other governments supporting them. They know why it's a big deal and I'm only curious why exactly it is a big deal.
Rome and Copenhagen took the initiative in drafting the letter.
Goverment was going for an extraordinary legalization of 500k undocumented illegals. Requisites being having no criminal record, not pending a deportation order, etc etc. Also It IS only for inmigrants Who came before 2026 and met the requisites.
Obviously noone who entered Ceuta was going to be elegible for this, but scoring easy points at home is too juicy for politicians.
What happened in Ceuta seems to have happened over facebook where suppossedly "Spain lifted the Frontier". This happens from time to time, specially if Morocco can use It as a bargaining chip of some sort.
Sánchez was on Algeria (Morocco's rival) to negotiate natural gas imports, so there is that.
I also don't know what people expect security forces to do when 50k people overrun the place completely, shoot them ? They are not Hamas members trying to decapitate people.
You don't really know who they are at first so you want to stop them before they overrun anything to begin with, you'd expect border security to have nonlethal/less lethal options and crowd control options. Fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, beanbags, rubber bullets, etc. To say they're not Hamas members this time misses that again if you don't know who they are, the fact that someone can let this happen, is a vulnerability which is also step 1 to how pogroms happen.
Most of them come swimming. Explain to me how well fire hoses, tear gas, smoke, bean bags and rubber bullets work as non-lethal options vis-a-vis people in the sea.
As for Jankisa's assertion that Spain should just give up its exclaves, my question is: why? Based on what does Morocco have a greater right to Ceuta or Melilla than Spain? What happen to self-determination? Or are you just saying that it's inconvenient and hard to defend from invasion?
And no, I'm not particularly attached to the exclaves. I just haven't heard anything at all convincing for why this should be given up other than "Morocco wants it", which doesn't sound very convincing.
I mean, I can rephrase the exact reasoning from my post but I might as well just post it again since it directly answers your questions:
On August 04 2026 00:15 Jankisa wrote: I personally believe that Spain should give up it's enclaves, I understand those places mean something to them but they are a colonial leftover that is causing huge issues and will continue to cause them indefinitely.
We are talking about 160.000 people, out of them I believe under 100.000 are natively Spanish.
Offer to buy their properties out or replace them with a place in Spain and give these enclaves to the host countries, who wants to stay can, and perhaps a deal can be struck with Morocco to maintain self governance for these places.
This problem is never going to go away and now that the right wingers saw how well these kind of scenes track you can bet your ass that they will start happening more often.
If the current Spanish goverment is as "woke" and for justice as they like to present themselves, this should be the way.
Obviously I'm way oversimplifying this but to me, this seems like the only reasonable long term solution.
I'm curious what do our Spaniard members think of this?
Of course, if you want to let this go on, have people dying on regular basis and have all this inter EU drama over it, from what I got from your reply, your reasoning to keep them is basically: because they are ours.
OK, sure, they are, they are also very problematic, politically, morally and from a PR perspective. These things will keep on happening and if you are OK with 20 + people dying there every few years, different populist countries calling for excluding Spain from Schengen, these scenes stoking anti-immigrant hate, that is OK, but I think you should have a better reason then "well they are ours".
I also never said they should be given up because Morocco wants them, I'm looking at this from the lens of what is best for EU.
I asked because what you said in your post didn't make any sense, and still doesn't. Ceuta and Melilla being a part of Spain has about as much to do with colonization as Granada being a part of Spain. So should Ceuta, Melilla and Granada belong to Morocco? And why are we stopping in the late 15th century? We should probably split Spain up into separate Iberic tribes, with a smattering of Greek, Phoenician and Celtic settlements along the coast, because that's the approximate state Spain was in before it was "colonized by foreign invaders" (Romans) for the first time.
Giving the same treatment to Croatia, I suspect most islands would be independent Greek city states, whereas the mainland would probably need to be forcefully united with northern Italy and Slovenia to be Liburnia. This sounds like a properly sane way to go about modern geopolitics, but it's really the only way of undoing the detrimental effects of Roman colonialism.
As for the "people dying on regular basis", I must necessarily point you to the far greater problems of people trying to reach Lampedusa, Malta, Lesbos, and even the Canary Islands. Obviously what happened was a tragedy, and 75 deaths is awful. On the other hand, it's quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of "Fortress Europe". In the public interest, we should cede Lampedusa, Pantelleria, Malta, and probably Sicily to Tunisia and Libya, because I am sure this will stop desperate people from trying to reach Europe by extremely unsafe methods!
Finally, one more thing that we absolutely know will stop Vox (the Spanish equivalent of those populists who want to throw Spain out of Schengen) is to give up territory, because there is nothing fascists like more than to give up national territory. Vox will instantly disband and it'll lead to a humiliating defeat for the PP when Pedro Sanchez rolls out the genius policy of just giving land to Morocco. It'll take the wind right out of their sails, as you can see by Meloni moving to gift Italy's southern islands to Tunisia and how popular it is among her base!
I'm not really interested in replying to a "your country is not even a country if you dare to suggest that a territory on another continent is not 100 % part of my country" argument you tried to make, makes you look like you have a lot more in common with VOX then you'd like to admit.
Then you move on to suggest a bunch of islands that again aren't on a different continent are also problematic when no one is trying to make that argument.
For your final argument, it's basically "we must appease fascists and make sure never to do anything they'd dislike because it wouldn't play well politically", very logical, as we know appeasing fascists has historically always worked, right?
I don't really get it. You're the one claiming the status quo isn't working. Prove it. So far I've seen a border policy that is working just fine (better and more humane than others I pointed out and you seem opposed to changing) and people in "oversees territories" who seem very happy to have their territory be ruled over by the Spanish king. There also isn't some minority being oppressed that needs protecting from the Spanish aggressors. In fact, I'm willing to bet a 1000 bucks right here and now that there are fewer secessionists as a percentage of population (I'm obviously fine with absolute numbers too if you prefer) in Ceuta or Melilla than there are in Catalonia or Basqueland, and I am mostly in favor of self-determination for those regions. Not exactly a favourite point for Vox.
Your other point was drivel about colonialism that I refuted and you seem to have no further response to I assume you concede that Ceuta and Melilla have nothing to do with colonialism as we understand it nowadays.
And you misunderstand: I have absolutely no interest in keeping Ceuta and Melilla as part of Spain. I just see absolutely no reason not to keep them as part of Spain as they so clearly wish. In the same way (and once again, Vox would crucify me) I have no interest in adding Gibraltar (another land border with non-EU, which you so clearly fear) to Spain.
I'm sorry but the only way I can read this sentence:
that Ceuta and Melilla have nothing to do with colonialism as we understand it nowadays.
About a territory that is again, in Africa, but sure, impossible to prove that this has to do anything with colonialism:
A colony is a land or area controlled by a far-away country, a group of people who move to a new place to live while keeping ties to home, or a group of animals or plants of the same type living together.
I listed quite a few reasons why it might be a good idea to give them up, which you haven't really addressed at any point, except whataboutism.
I acknowledge that you listed good reasons, I respect them, will of the people and long history are pretty good arguments, I'm not denying that, all my original post and every other so far did was to try to weigh them against the arguments for the opposite.
'A territory in Africa, a whole different continent!'.
I'm sorry I have to ask. Are you aware that the strait of Gibraltar is like 15 kilometers wide? These Spanish 'colonies' are literally within sight of mainland Spain.
They didn't sail across half the world to steal resources. They went for a morning walk.
I mean, but it is there. It is causing all of these problems.
My country was blocked from EU ascension by Slovenia over 19 KM of shore, I would have and was for just giving up on that territory because territory, to me, is way less important then the European project and the prosperity it brings to my country, and I believed that sooner my country joins EU better off it will be in the long run.
We lost 4-5 years because of some dick measuring between Slovenian and Croatian politicians, by some estimates, Croatian GDP would be around 20 % larger then it is today if those delays didn't happen.
That is 20 % better standard of living, 20 % more money for pensions and subsidies, these things compound.
Like I said, I see these places becoming bigger and bigger problem, mostly due to propaganda reasons, Trump was talking about an invasion of Spain basically as this was happening, every right wing ghoul around the world used this as an opportunity to demonize these people and crucify Spain, from both sides.
They sent their "hot button topic corespondent" there immediately:
These are all huge propaganda wins, this is what they want, but if you guys want to pretend like this is all just super normal, business as usual and nothing should be done to address this, go ahead, I just have a different opinion.
A colony is a land or area controlled by a far-away country, a group of people who move to a new place to live while keeping ties to home, or a group of animals or plants of the same type living together.
I listed quite a few reasons why it might be a good idea to give them up, which you haven't really addressed at any point, except whataboutism.
I acknowledge that you listed good reasons, I respect them, will of the people and long history are pretty good arguments, I'm not denying that, all my original post and every other so far did was to try to weigh them against the arguments for the opposite.
Lmao. Ceuta was taken in 1415. Unified Spain conquered Granada in 1492 which was the last Muslim kingdom in Iberia. Thereby finishing the reconquista. They had to recapture home clay way after taking Ceuta and Melilla. This was good old fashioned European (and north African) warfare. Like everywhere else in Europe and NA at that time. They lost more territory to the Ottomans than to Spain and Portugal. Or was it also colonialism when the precursor to Marocco ruled most of Iberia?
So far responses to this suggestion were ridicule, misconstruing of what I said and trying to say that my country shouldn't exist.
It's honestly ridiculous that you guys are pretending like this is a cut and dry case "of course this shit is Spanish" when these are the only EU borders in Africa. Period.
0 people have addressed any of the reasons I listed why I think these places are more trouble then worth, except attack it with semantics and whataboutism.
Of course, you can continue to do so, I'm just telling you it's a pretty bad look.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/YBSgFtHL/here.png)
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