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On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:
It's theft to enable people to freely choose the country they want to live and work in? A fence to keep the refugees out and now fences to keep the Spaniards in? Is that the solution to every problem of the contemporary left and right "no matter the problem, just build a fence!"? So for you, it's freedom that pushed Syrian to go live in Germany, and it's freedom that push Italian and Greeks to go work in Germany. I'll give a tip, if it was only about freedom, everybody would go and live in the south of Italy, because god damn it's beautiful, the weather is nice and the girls are goddess.. No, Syrians are fleeing from a war, I think we can agree on that. But I that there are many Italians and Greeks that like to go to Germany, and everybody who wants to shouldn't be stopped from doing so in any direct or indirect way. Yeah and well the German weather sucks but are you seriously saying no one would voluntarily want to live in Germany and the only reason are €€€? Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect).
I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people.
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On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:
It's theft to enable people to freely choose the country they want to live and work in? A fence to keep the refugees out and now fences to keep the Spaniards in? Is that the solution to every problem of the contemporary left and right "no matter the problem, just build a fence!"? So for you, it's freedom that pushed Syrian to go live in Germany, and it's freedom that push Italian and Greeks to go work in Germany. I'll give a tip, if it was only about freedom, everybody would go and live in the south of Italy, because god damn it's beautiful, the weather is nice and the girls are goddess.. No, Syrians are fleeing from a war, I think we can agree on that. But I that there are many Italians and Greeks that like to go to Germany, and everybody who wants to shouldn't be stopped from doing so in any direct or indirect way. Yeah and well the German weather sucks but are you seriously saying no one would voluntarily want to live in Germany and the only reason are €€€? Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people.
note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there...
Please try reading the whole post.
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On January 11 2016 03:00 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:
It's theft to enable people to freely choose the country they want to live and work in? A fence to keep the refugees out and now fences to keep the Spaniards in? Is that the solution to every problem of the contemporary left and right "no matter the problem, just build a fence!"? So for you, it's freedom that pushed Syrian to go live in Germany, and it's freedom that push Italian and Greeks to go work in Germany. I'll give a tip, if it was only about freedom, everybody would go and live in the south of Italy, because god damn it's beautiful, the weather is nice and the girls are goddess.. No, Syrians are fleeing from a war, I think we can agree on that. But I that there are many Italians and Greeks that like to go to Germany, and everybody who wants to shouldn't be stopped from doing so in any direct or indirect way. Yeah and well the German weather sucks but are you seriously saying no one would voluntarily want to live in Germany and the only reason are €€€? Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people. note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there... Please try reading the whole post.
So then I don't understand your post at all : how are economic constraint akin to the desire to be with someone ? Yes, people have "reasons" when they do something, if that is your core point then great. But some are made freely, others are merely the result of various constraints.
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On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:
It's theft to enable people to freely choose the country they want to live and work in? A fence to keep the refugees out and now fences to keep the Spaniards in? Is that the solution to every problem of the contemporary left and right "no matter the problem, just build a fence!"? So for you, it's freedom that pushed Syrian to go live in Germany, and it's freedom that push Italian and Greeks to go work in Germany. I'll give a tip, if it was only about freedom, everybody would go and live in the south of Italy, because god damn it's beautiful, the weather is nice and the girls are goddess.. No, Syrians are fleeing from a war
I think it is important to keep in mind the current migrant crisis is not just Syrians. The Syrian migration has sparked mass migrations from other countries like Morocco, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. The picture of a drowned kid is being applied to populations that do not share those insane circumstances.
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On January 11 2016 03:05 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 03:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:
It's theft to enable people to freely choose the country they want to live and work in? A fence to keep the refugees out and now fences to keep the Spaniards in? Is that the solution to every problem of the contemporary left and right "no matter the problem, just build a fence!"? So for you, it's freedom that pushed Syrian to go live in Germany, and it's freedom that push Italian and Greeks to go work in Germany. I'll give a tip, if it was only about freedom, everybody would go and live in the south of Italy, because god damn it's beautiful, the weather is nice and the girls are goddess.. No, Syrians are fleeing from a war, I think we can agree on that. But I that there are many Italians and Greeks that like to go to Germany, and everybody who wants to shouldn't be stopped from doing so in any direct or indirect way. Yeah and well the German weather sucks but are you seriously saying no one would voluntarily want to live in Germany and the only reason are €€€? Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people. note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there... Please try reading the whole post. So then I don't understand your post at all : how are economic constraint akin to the desire to be with someone ? Yes, people have "reasons" when they do something, if that is your core point then great.
Try reading back the conversation between you and Nyxisto and you might get it.
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On January 11 2016 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 03:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:
It's theft to enable people to freely choose the country they want to live and work in? A fence to keep the refugees out and now fences to keep the Spaniards in? Is that the solution to every problem of the contemporary left and right "no matter the problem, just build a fence!"? So for you, it's freedom that pushed Syrian to go live in Germany, and it's freedom that push Italian and Greeks to go work in Germany. I'll give a tip, if it was only about freedom, everybody would go and live in the south of Italy, because god damn it's beautiful, the weather is nice and the girls are goddess.. No, Syrians are fleeing from a war, I think we can agree on that. But I that there are many Italians and Greeks that like to go to Germany, and everybody who wants to shouldn't be stopped from doing so in any direct or indirect way. Yeah and well the German weather sucks but are you seriously saying no one would voluntarily want to live in Germany and the only reason are €€€? Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people. note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there... Please try reading the whole post. So then I don't understand your post at all : how are economic constraint akin to the desire to be with someone ? Yes, people have "reasons" when they do something, if that is your core point then great. Try reading back the conversation between you and Nyxisto and you might get it.
I'm quite sure you don't understand much of what is being discussed, like Nyxisto you have that disease that most people have today to simplify and caricature others in order to feel safer about your point of view : like implying that I want the government to build fence to stop people from leaving, or the fact that any critic of europe is basically being pro saudi arabia.
But sure, continue on saying stuff.
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On January 11 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 03:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 01:46 Nyxisto wrote:
It's theft to enable people to freely choose the country they want to live and work in? A fence to keep the refugees out and now fences to keep the Spaniards in? Is that the solution to every problem of the contemporary left and right "no matter the problem, just build a fence!"? So for you, it's freedom that pushed Syrian to go live in Germany, and it's freedom that push Italian and Greeks to go work in Germany. I'll give a tip, if it was only about freedom, everybody would go and live in the south of Italy, because god damn it's beautiful, the weather is nice and the girls are goddess.. No, Syrians are fleeing from a war, I think we can agree on that. But I that there are many Italians and Greeks that like to go to Germany, and everybody who wants to shouldn't be stopped from doing so in any direct or indirect way. Yeah and well the German weather sucks but are you seriously saying no one would voluntarily want to live in Germany and the only reason are €€€? Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people. note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there... Please try reading the whole post. So then I don't understand your post at all : how are economic constraint akin to the desire to be with someone ? Yes, people have "reasons" when they do something, if that is your core point then great. Try reading back the conversation between you and Nyxisto and you might get it. I'm quite sure you don't understand much of what is being discussed, like Nyxisto you have that disease that most people have today to simplify and caricature others in order to feel safer about your point of view : like implying that I want the government to build fence to stop people from leaving, or the fact that any critic of europe is basically being pro saudi arabia. But sure, continue on saying stuff.
I didn't consciously try to make a caricature of your posts, but the underlying point with many of your arguments is that you see barriers as a solution to most economical or political problems. Rejecting a common currency is a form of economic protectionism, doing away with the European institutions is a form of political isolationism as well and regarding the refugee situation you seem to agree as well that rejecting them is a feasible solution.
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On January 11 2016 03:24 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 03:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
So for you, it's freedom that pushed Syrian to go live in Germany, and it's freedom that push Italian and Greeks to go work in Germany. I'll give a tip, if it was only about freedom, everybody would go and live in the south of Italy, because god damn it's beautiful, the weather is nice and the girls are goddess.. No, Syrians are fleeing from a war, I think we can agree on that. But I that there are many Italians and Greeks that like to go to Germany, and everybody who wants to shouldn't be stopped from doing so in any direct or indirect way. Yeah and well the German weather sucks but are you seriously saying no one would voluntarily want to live in Germany and the only reason are €€€? Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people. note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there... Please try reading the whole post. So then I don't understand your post at all : how are economic constraint akin to the desire to be with someone ? Yes, people have "reasons" when they do something, if that is your core point then great. Try reading back the conversation between you and Nyxisto and you might get it. I'm quite sure you don't understand much of what is being discussed, like Nyxisto you have that disease that most people have today to simplify and caricature others in order to feel safer about your point of view : like implying that I want the government to build fence to stop people from leaving, or the fact that any critic of europe is basically being pro saudi arabia. But sure, continue on saying stuff. I didn't consciously try to make a caricature of your posts, but the underlying point with many of your arguments is that you see barriers as a solution to most economical or political problems. Rejecting a common currency is a form of economic protectionism, doing away with the European institutions is a form of political isolationism as well and regarding the refugee situation you seem to agree as well that rejecting them is a feasible solution.
It is not the underlying point at all, you are just, as you often do, implying things. Do I desire to bloc all migrants from Africa ? Did I ever argue for it ?
Never... I am just pointing out the mecanism that leads those people to flee their home country. The solution is not to prevent people from coming, but rather to fix the mecanism. I'm okay for some way to restrict the freedom of movement for goods, services and capital, not for people.
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Since the new year the propaganda machine called press and media is going on overdrive in Germany. It must have been similar in the late GDR except that their media was state owned nowadays two corporations with good government contacts basically share the cake, it is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish between the two systems mediawise. It is actually sad to see. Dear Americans we might need bombing in some decades again, seriously some of the bullshit they come up with sounds like real life satire.
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Since the new year the propaganda machine called press and media is going on overdrive in Germany.
What is the propaganda, must've run past me considering that there's evidence airing that media/press actually can't give an accurate picture thanks to being lied to in the first place.
edit: or, i should say, interesting information was "held back" by police speakers.
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On January 11 2016 04:01 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Since the new year the propaganda machine called press and media is going on overdrive in Germany. What is the propaganda, must've run past me considering that there's evidence airing that media/press actually can't give an accurate picture thanks to being lied to in the first place.
Deflecting the issue at hand with utter nonsense like this:
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/focus-und-sueddeutsche-zeitung-eine-entschuldigung-eine-rechtfertigung-fuer-titel-a-1071334.html
Seriously who cares? That is shooting the messenger.
Some green worm already explained me that every male is a potential rapist, the media runs with it.
Fear mongering that the right will use the crimes committed for propaganda purposes ( no shit, of course they will) etc. etc.
For me personally it comes across as a cocktail consisting out of deflection, denial and belittlement. A mass sexual assault becomes an incident, the fact that the mob was consisting mostly of northern african men gets labeled pure speculation and it often gets mentioned that every male is a potential rapist to deflect from the fact that the mass sexual assault got committed by members of the muslim community and not by anybody else. I think the press echo is cringeworthy at best and synchronized at worst. they are all writing the same shit and it is embarassing imo.
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For me personally it comes across as a cocktail consisting out of deflection, denial and belittlement. A mass sexual assault becomes an incident, the fact that the mob was consisting mostly of northern african men gets labeled pure speculation and it often gets mentioned that every male is a potential rapist to deflect from the fact that the mass sexual assault got committed by members of the muslim community and not by anybody else. I think the press echo is cringeworthy at best and synchronized at worst. they are all writing the same shit and it is embarassing imo.
Actually, that's what i'm talking about.
There's evidence airing that media reports stuff that the police speakers actually said, trouble being that that is not what officers had to say.
http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/7876004/-waren-frisch-eingereiste-asylbewerber-.html
Officers paint a very different picture of what the police did in NYE, and who was responsible for it. They start talking anonymously to media now, because they start feeling like perps, unjustified. They did do their jobs to the extend they could, they do know that it's not "mostly north africans" but that north africans actually are a (quote) "small minority, the majority being syrians, most of them just recently arrived in germany", etc.
And that also is spot on with the "Nachbereitung" (follow up protocols?) for that night, which is in heavy contradiction with what the chief of police told the press. So, what these cops are saying, is pretty much the best you got right now.
So if there is a problem at all with propaganda, it's pretty much people that state that it has nothing to do with syrians or arabs. Because that statement is utter bullshit.
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On January 11 2016 04:14 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 04:01 m4ini wrote:Since the new year the propaganda machine called press and media is going on overdrive in Germany. What is the propaganda, must've run past me considering that there's evidence airing that media/press actually can't give an accurate picture thanks to being lied to in the first place. Deflecting the issue at hand with utter nonsense like this: http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/focus-und-sueddeutsche-zeitung-eine-entschuldigung-eine-rechtfertigung-fuer-titel-a-1071334.htmlSeriously who cares? That is shooting the messenger. Some green worm already explained me that every male is a potential rapist, the media runs with it. Fear mongering that the right will use the crimes committed for propaganda purposes ( no shit, of course they will) etc. etc. For me personally it comes across as a cocktail consisting out of deflection, denial and belittlement. A mass sexual assault becomes an incident, the fact that the mob was consisting mostly of northern african men gets labeled pure speculation and it often gets mentioned that every male is a potential rapist to deflect from the fact that the mass sexual assault got committed by members of the muslim community and not by anybody else. I think the press echo is cringeworthy at best and synchronized at worst. they are all writing the same shit and it is embarassing imo.
is the propaganda in this case the tweets from angry people? I'm really not sure if I even get what you're on about.
If that's what you're getting at: You see (at least) 2 VERY MUCH mainstream print-media telling the story the way you want it and a couple readers + journalists tweeting angrily? That's not propaganda.
Or are you saying the original SZ + Focus report was propaganda?
Either way I don't really see it because you're either calling Spiegel evil while saying SZ + Focus are good or the other way around, right? And all 3 are part of that group of media you just flat out called out on using propaganda.
Or I'm misunderstanding you massively.
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On January 11 2016 03:29 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 03:24 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 03:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:34 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
No, Syrians are fleeing from a war, I think we can agree on that. But I that there are many Italians and Greeks that like to go to Germany, and everybody who wants to shouldn't be stopped from doing so in any direct or indirect way. Yeah and well the German weather sucks but are you seriously saying no one would voluntarily want to live in Germany and the only reason are €€€? Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people. note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there... Please try reading the whole post. So then I don't understand your post at all : how are economic constraint akin to the desire to be with someone ? Yes, people have "reasons" when they do something, if that is your core point then great. Try reading back the conversation between you and Nyxisto and you might get it. I'm quite sure you don't understand much of what is being discussed, like Nyxisto you have that disease that most people have today to simplify and caricature others in order to feel safer about your point of view : like implying that I want the government to build fence to stop people from leaving, or the fact that any critic of europe is basically being pro saudi arabia. But sure, continue on saying stuff. I didn't consciously try to make a caricature of your posts, but the underlying point with many of your arguments is that you see barriers as a solution to most economical or political problems. Rejecting a common currency is a form of economic protectionism, doing away with the European institutions is a form of political isolationism as well and regarding the refugee situation you seem to agree as well that rejecting them is a feasible solution. It is not the underlying point at all, you are just, as you often do, implying things. Do I desire to bloc all migrants from Africa ? Did I ever argue for it ? Never... I am just pointing out the mecanism that leads those people to flee their home country. The solution is not to prevent people from coming, but rather to fix the mecanism. I'm okay for some way to restrict the freedom of movement for goods, services and capital, not for people.
Its plausible that we in the West do not have the capability to fix this " mechanism", what then? I think this is the kilowatt most likely explanation, actually.
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On January 11 2016 04:57 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 03:29 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:24 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 03:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people. note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there... Please try reading the whole post. So then I don't understand your post at all : how are economic constraint akin to the desire to be with someone ? Yes, people have "reasons" when they do something, if that is your core point then great. Try reading back the conversation between you and Nyxisto and you might get it. I'm quite sure you don't understand much of what is being discussed, like Nyxisto you have that disease that most people have today to simplify and caricature others in order to feel safer about your point of view : like implying that I want the government to build fence to stop people from leaving, or the fact that any critic of europe is basically being pro saudi arabia. But sure, continue on saying stuff. I didn't consciously try to make a caricature of your posts, but the underlying point with many of your arguments is that you see barriers as a solution to most economical or political problems. Rejecting a common currency is a form of economic protectionism, doing away with the European institutions is a form of political isolationism as well and regarding the refugee situation you seem to agree as well that rejecting them is a feasible solution. It is not the underlying point at all, you are just, as you often do, implying things. Do I desire to bloc all migrants from Africa ? Did I ever argue for it ? Never... I am just pointing out the mecanism that leads those people to flee their home country. The solution is not to prevent people from coming, but rather to fix the mecanism. I'm okay for some way to restrict the freedom of movement for goods, services and capital, not for people. Its plausible that we in the West do not have the capability to fix this " mechanism", what then? I think this is the kilowatt most likely explanation, actually.
There is no acceptable fix for the middle-east yeah,
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On January 11 2016 04:50 Toadesstern wrote:
is the propaganda in this case the tweets from angry people?
From what I've learned on the internet, your neighbour disagreeing with you is propaganda. Every major news agency is reporting about this from every angle possible.
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On January 11 2016 04:57 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 03:29 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:24 Nyxisto wrote:On January 11 2016 03:15 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:12 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 03:05 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 03:00 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:57 WhiteDog wrote:On January 11 2016 02:48 Gorsameth wrote:On January 11 2016 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Tell me, is it freedom that leads Spanish and portuguese to Angola ? German weather sucking or not, most people don't want to migrate and do for economic reasons, nothing to do with freedom. This much should be pretty easy to acknowledge. They have the freedom to migrate for economic reasons. The government isnt building a fence around the country to stop them from leaving. Their family will not be throw into prison if they leave the country. The freedom to leave if you so desire, for whatever reason. No western citizen moves for 'freedom' (whatever that even means) there is always an underlying reason (economic, relations ect). I disagree with you, there are reasons to migrate that are not economic - love is one, a desire to explore the world in its diversity is another. Sadly, it is mostly reserved for a few selected people. note the word relations (aka love/familie) and ect at the end there... Please try reading the whole post. So then I don't understand your post at all : how are economic constraint akin to the desire to be with someone ? Yes, people have "reasons" when they do something, if that is your core point then great. Try reading back the conversation between you and Nyxisto and you might get it. I'm quite sure you don't understand much of what is being discussed, like Nyxisto you have that disease that most people have today to simplify and caricature others in order to feel safer about your point of view : like implying that I want the government to build fence to stop people from leaving, or the fact that any critic of europe is basically being pro saudi arabia. But sure, continue on saying stuff. I didn't consciously try to make a caricature of your posts, but the underlying point with many of your arguments is that you see barriers as a solution to most economical or political problems. Rejecting a common currency is a form of economic protectionism, doing away with the European institutions is a form of political isolationism as well and regarding the refugee situation you seem to agree as well that rejecting them is a feasible solution. It is not the underlying point at all, you are just, as you often do, implying things. Do I desire to bloc all migrants from Africa ? Did I ever argue for it ? Never... I am just pointing out the mecanism that leads those people to flee their home country. The solution is not to prevent people from coming, but rather to fix the mecanism. I'm okay for some way to restrict the freedom of movement for goods, services and capital, not for people. Its plausible that we in the West do not have the capability to fix this " mechanism", what then? I think this is the kilowatt most likely explanation, actually.
In Europe we can. In Africa, we can't really.
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On January 11 2016 05:16 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 04:50 Toadesstern wrote:
is the propaganda in this case the tweets from angry people? From what I've learned on the internet, your neighbour disagreeing with you is propaganda. Every major news agency is reporting about this from every angle possible.
the publicly financed media ard and zdf did a completely terrible job covering it and were in complete denial as long as it was possible. they even forbid their interview partners to mention that refugees were among the mob and making up baseless numbers like the 200 rapes supposedly happening on the oktoberfest each year.
in the grand picture the media did/does cover it adequately but the largest and probably most trusted media are not doing their job at all and are just one step away from full blown propaganda.
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On January 11 2016 04:23 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +For me personally it comes across as a cocktail consisting out of deflection, denial and belittlement. A mass sexual assault becomes an incident, the fact that the mob was consisting mostly of northern african men gets labeled pure speculation and it often gets mentioned that every male is a potential rapist to deflect from the fact that the mass sexual assault got committed by members of the muslim community and not by anybody else. I think the press echo is cringeworthy at best and synchronized at worst. they are all writing the same shit and it is embarassing imo. Actually, that's what i'm talking about. There's evidence airing that media reports stuff that the police speakers actually said, trouble being that that is not what officers had to say. http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/7876004/-waren-frisch-eingereiste-asylbewerber-.htmlOfficers paint a very different picture of what the police did in NYE, and who was responsible for it. They start talking anonymously to media now, because they start feeling like perps, unjustified. They did do their jobs to the extend they could, they do know that it's not "mostly north africans" but that north africans actually are a (quote) "small minority, the majority being syrians, most of them just recently arrived in germany", etc. And that also is spot on with the "Nachbereitung" (follow up protocols?) for that night, which is in heavy contradiction with what the chief of police told the press. So, what these cops are saying, is pretty much the best you got right now. So if there is a problem at all with propaganda, it's pretty much people that state that it has nothing to do with syrians or arabs. Because that statement is utter bullshit.
Oh they are running strong with it:
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/s-p-o-n-der-kritiker-a-1071310.html
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Was-Koeln-mit-dem-Islam-nicht-zu-tun-hat-article16718251.html
http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2016-01/sexuelle-gewalt-situation-frauen-alltag
http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2016-01/koeln-silvester-uebergriffe-medien
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/zusammenleben-die-welt-wird-nicht-untergehen-kolumne-a-1070749.html
https://www.jungewelt.de/2016/01-06/032.php
http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/7889772/hamburgs-gruenen-vize-sorgt-fuer-proteststurm.html
What all this press releases have in common is that they don't speak about the actual happenings but about other stuff, like violence against women in general or they tell us not to make such fuss about it etc, they are either deflecting or belittling the issue. Not one of the authors is able to call a spade a spade. You can find dozens of these articles, embarassing.
I don't need an ideologically coluored press, informing me about things in a halfway impartial way would be fine. Some commentary regarding our media landscape I largely agree with:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/fluechtlinge-und-medien-erziehungs-rundfunk-kolumne-a-1070501.html
The propaganda slogan from the right wing regarding "Lügenpresse" didn't exactly start in a vacuum. Our media tries it's very best to keep that accusation going, feeding it, keeping it on the first page. The utter neglect of the story in the first days (I don't need a press that just copies the press releases from the institutions, that's Hofberichterstattung) and then denying the causes (like a fucked up picture of women in many muslimic societies)
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Well I don't really know what kind of coverage you expected but I don't see what the ARD or ZDF tried to hide. That this took two days to take off in the media over new years eve has nothing do to with a conspiracy, news outlets over holidays aren't exactly fully stuffed and usually like to verify things before they publish.
As to the media in general, this is one of Germany's more liberal newspapers, so I really don't see how anyone can claim that they're treating this issue with kid gloves.
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EPT
