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On September 14 2015 06:11 WhiteDog wrote:They're effectively pausing the schenghen treaty until further notice. What a weird chain of event, who would have thought.
First I like to say I am all for helping refuges and giving asylum to people but it should be limited,and not unlimited as it seems to be now.
800k people+ in Germany alone this year. That's 1% of the population.
And these people all have to be provided,as they wont be able to work for the first few months most likely,if there is a job to be found in the first place. Germany already did its job by pulling 16m east germans out of poverty..
There is another thing, if we let everyone come here who has trouble with a dictatorship in their home land, then how the dictatorship is ever going to be removed? It will be a situation that only enforces itself.
Don't understand much of the point behind this all,there have been refuges in Europe for ages but why this sudden and huge increase? it is something completely new and I don't see a cause.
Syria? isis? there are always wars going on in that region, have been for decades if not centurys,yet there where not that many refuges in the past.
It feels like someone opened gates to force some crisis in the future,because there is no way in hell Germany will be able to adopt 1% of its population every single year.
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On September 14 2015 23:27 Rassy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 06:11 WhiteDog wrote:They're effectively pausing the schenghen treaty until further notice. What a weird chain of event, who would have thought. First I like to say I am all for helping refuges and giving asylum to people but it should be limited,and not unlimited as it seems to be now. 800k people+ in Germany alone this year. That's 1% of the population. And these people all have to be provided,as they wont be able to work for the first few months most likely,if there is a job to be found in the first place. Germany already did its job by pulling 16m east germans out of poverty.. There is another thing, if we let everyone come here who has trouble with a dictatorship in their home land, then how the dictatorship is ever going to be removed? It will be a situation that only enforces itself. Don't understand much of the point behind this all,there have been refuges in Europe for ages but why this sudden and huge increase? it is something completely new and I don't see a cause. Syria? isis? there are always wars going on in that region, have been for decades if not centurys,yet there where not that many refuges in the past. It feels like someone opened gates to force some crisis in the future,because there is no way in hell Germany will be able to adopt 1% of its population every single year.
It is the realization that the war in Syria is not going to end any time soon and ISIS is spreading to other regions. The Syrian war started in 2011, so a lot of the refugees were living in a country under constant warfare for like 4 years. And the surrounding countries have hit their limit of the number of refugees they can or are willing to take in.
And Germany obviously can't take in 800K yearly. But Syria has 30 million people, and not all of them are displaced. But the longer the war goes on, the more will be.
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rassy -> I think its because they think they can get a lot of money there, so they go there.
Providing more support to the refugees in turkey/lebanon would've been cheaper and more effective.
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On September 14 2015 06:11 WhiteDog wrote:They're effectively pausing the schenghen treaty until further notice. What a weird chain of event, who would have thought.
To be honest I thought the Greek crisis escalated fast, but the current refugee crisis is on a different level entirely.
I do find all the talk about "solidarity" troubling, not to mention hypocritical. What Western Europe means when they ask Hungary, Poland and the like to show solidarity with the refugees, is essentially "come up some ways to stem this flow of people because we can't handle it anymore." It also completely foregoes the fact that the only solidarity the refugees want from Eastern European countries is an easy passage to the west. Most people living in Eastern Europe would actually rather live and work in Western Europe themselves. The refugees - understandably - want to move to those countries where they have the best chances for a better future.
It's quite the situation we've got here. Holland now closed down its borders as well. I expect other countries to follow suit really quickly.
I have to admit I am increasingly finding it difficult to still label them as refugees. A great many of them travel from safe countries, meaning they're not running away from places where their life is endangered. The current wave really blurs the line between economic migrants and genuine refugees. I can totally understand De Mazière's point about refugees choosing the country they want to settle in.
I wonder whether we'll see countries start distinguishing between citizens and refugees. The latter would be allowed to stay until their countries are safe again and cannot make full use of their host country's social security. They would be able to "upgrade" to full citizenship after meeting some strict criteria, such as getting a degree and job in the host country, a high level language proficiency, etc.
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On September 14 2015 23:27 Rassy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 06:11 WhiteDog wrote:They're effectively pausing the schenghen treaty until further notice. What a weird chain of event, who would have thought. Don't understand much of the point behind this all,there have been refuges in Europe for ages but why this sudden and huge increase? it is something completely new and I don't see a cause. Syria? isis? there are always wars going on in that region, have been for decades if not centurys,yet there where not that many refuges in the past.
i think the reasons why there are so many refugees now are that the syrien civil war is already one of the, if not the most destructive war in history. the destruction in syria is already more widespread than in germany '45 and because it is a very obscure civil war with countless factions all fighting for random things there are no save places in that country. usually when there is a war, the fighting focusses on certain regions of a country and the population can flee to safer places within the country which is easier and safer than fleeing to a foreign country. but because syria is the closest thing to mad max in existence, everyone in syria who decides to flee has to leave the country. so we have more refugees from syria because other warzones arent as fucked up as syria.
another important aspect is that the north african and arabian states used to be stable countries who hold their borders tight. refugees from further south had a hard time travelling through those countries.
this is also the first time since the dismantlement of the warsaw pact that there is a huge and lasting conflict near europe. up until 1990 every refugee had to somehow get through east europe and i am sure a lot of east europeans would have followed them if there ever would have been a trail like the one we see now.
i think there is also widespread misinformation on how good the chances to rebuild your life in west europe are. refugees in germany have close to zero chance to ever have something that resembles a normal life and will most likely live in a very uncertain environment for years without the permission to work or do anything usefull. but this isnt really important for people from syria or iraq and more something related to refugess from the balkan countries.
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On September 14 2015 23:05 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 06:11 WhiteDog wrote:They're effectively pausing the schenghen treaty until further notice. What a weird chain of event, who would have thought. De Maiziere has always been a complete idiot. This panic reaction of the Merkel government is just an other completely idiotic attempt to please the conservative crowd and just confirms that the EUs refugee and border politics have been a complete failure. Humanity is sadly not something what could be expected from this sort of government.
I'm not going to defend Merkel but they already did a lot for the refugees. There is a limit to how much people germany (and europe) can welcome, and if that limit is not yet attained it is understandable that the power in place wants some control over the flux of population (altho Germany wants control even outside of their frontiers).
Not to mention that due to the current huge inequalities in economic performance across the union, most refugee are rushing to germany (since it's the only place where they will easily find a job - 25 millions unemployed in europe already).
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new predictions are >1M refugee by the end of the year.
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On September 15 2015 00:53 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 23:27 Rassy wrote:On September 14 2015 06:11 WhiteDog wrote:They're effectively pausing the schenghen treaty until further notice. What a weird chain of event, who would have thought. Don't understand much of the point behind this all,there have been refuges in Europe for ages but why this sudden and huge increase? it is something completely new and I don't see a cause. Syria? isis? there are always wars going on in that region, have been for decades if not centurys,yet there where not that many refuges in the past. i think the reasons why there are so many refugees now are that the syrien civil war is already one of the, if not the most destructive war in history. the destruction in syria is already more widespread than in germany '45 and because it is a very obscure civil war with countless factions all fighting for random things there are no save places in that country. usually when there is a war, the fighting focusses on certain regions of a country and the population can flee to safer places within the country which is easier and safer than fleeing to a foreign country. but because syria is the closest thing to mad max in existence, everyone in syria who decides to flee has to leave the country. so we have more refugees from syria because other warzones arent as fucked up as syria. another important aspect is that the north african and arabian states used to be stable countries who hold their borders tight. refugees from further south had a hard time travelling through those countries. this is also the first time since the dismantlement of the warsaw pact that there is a huge and lasting conflict near europe. up until 1990 every refugee had to somehow get through east europe and i am sure a lot of east europeans would have followed them if there ever would have been a trail like the one we see now. i think there is also widespread misinformation on how good the chances to rebuild your life in west europe are. refugees in germany have close to zero chance to ever have something that resembles a normal life and will most likely live in a very uncertain environment for years without the permission to work or do anything usefull. but this isnt really important for people from syria or iraq and more something related to refugess from the balkan countries.
The syrian conflict is nowhere remotely near the most destructive wars in history. There are hundreds of wars in history which saw more devastation.
casualty estimates are only around 220k, a mere 1% of the population.
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Oh well, I suppose the shit the German government gets for disregarding all rules and regulations and just making stuff up on the fly to win the popular vote is going to backfire much sooner now. No idea why anyone thought that asking all refugees to make their won way over here would turn out better than organising it properly, now we have to put up with all these obnoxious restrictions.
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On September 15 2015 00:53 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 23:27 Rassy wrote:On September 14 2015 06:11 WhiteDog wrote:They're effectively pausing the schenghen treaty until further notice. What a weird chain of event, who would have thought. Don't understand much of the point behind this all,there have been refuges in Europe for ages but why this sudden and huge increase? it is something completely new and I don't see a cause. Syria? isis? there are always wars going on in that region, have been for decades if not centurys,yet there where not that many refuges in the past. i think the reasons why there are so many refugees now are that the syrien civil war is already one of the, if not the most destructive war in history. the destruction in syria is already more widespread than in germany '45 and because it is a very obscure civil war with countless factions all fighting for random things there are no save places in that country. usually when there is a war, the fighting focusses on certain regions of a country and the population can flee to safer places within the country which is easier and safer than fleeing to a foreign country. but because syria is the closest thing to mad max in existence, everyone in syria who decides to flee has to leave the country. so we have more refugees from syria because other warzones arent as fucked up as syria. another important aspect is that the north african and arabian states used to be stable countries who hold their borders tight. refugees from further south had a hard time travelling through those countries. this is also the first time since the dismantlement of the warsaw pact that there is a huge and lasting conflict near europe. up until 1990 every refugee had to somehow get through east europe and i am sure a lot of east europeans would have followed them if there ever would have been a trail like the one we see now. i think there is also widespread misinformation on how good the chances to rebuild your life in west europe are. refugees in germany have close to zero chance to ever have something that resembles a normal life and will most likely live in a very uncertain environment for years without the permission to work or do anything usefull. but this isnt really important for people from syria or iraq and more something related to refugess from the balkan countries.
It has really nothing to do with the war escalating, it is people recognizing the pathway exists because many before then were successful. Its not like a million people just streamed into California at once, first a couple went, then found some gold, then more came and built a community, and finally the families of the initial migrants joined them.
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I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc.
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On September 15 2015 02:19 SoSexy wrote:
I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc.
I am very interested how you expect refugees from Syria to get to Kuwait. Jordan was reported to have like 600-700K refugees and they are a very tiny country with a population of like 6 million total. Saudi Arabia isn't likely to take in anyone because its Saudi Arabia.
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On September 15 2015 02:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 02:19 SoSexy wrote:
I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc. I am very interested how you expect refugees from Syria to get to Kuwait. Jordan was reported to have like 600-700K refugees and they are a very tiny country with a population of like 6 million total. Saudi Arabia isn't likely to take in anyone because its Saudi Arabia.
Closer culture, closer politics, closer religion...last time I checked kuwait was also closer than Germany or Sweden but hey, I dunno
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On September 15 2015 02:19 SoSexy wrote:
I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc.
They don't take anyone in. Saudis donated like 250M $ for refugee support though. I don't have a source, heard it in tv news. Some expert said they dont want Syrians because Syrians come from a relatively modern muslim country so they could provoke riots like those which started civil wars in Syria and Libya. Rich muslims prefer to pay those racist Europeans for taking care of the refugees.
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On September 15 2015 02:33 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 02:28 Plansix wrote:On September 15 2015 02:19 SoSexy wrote:
I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc. I am very interested how you expect refugees from Syria to get to Kuwait. Jordan was reported to have like 600-700K refugees and they are a very tiny country with a population of like 6 million total. Saudi Arabia isn't likely to take in anyone because its Saudi Arabia. Closer culture, closer politics, closer religion...last time I checked kuwait was also closer than Germany or Sweden but hey, I dunno
There is this whole warzone to go through and Iraq to cross. I don't know a whole bunch about Iraq, but i know its hot and you can't just walk across it. And there is that war thing. They are trying to avoid the violence, not walk through the worst of it.
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On September 15 2015 02:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 02:33 SoSexy wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 Plansix wrote:On September 15 2015 02:19 SoSexy wrote:
I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc. I am very interested how you expect refugees from Syria to get to Kuwait. Jordan was reported to have like 600-700K refugees and they are a very tiny country with a population of like 6 million total. Saudi Arabia isn't likely to take in anyone because its Saudi Arabia. Closer culture, closer politics, closer religion...last time I checked kuwait was also closer than Germany or Sweden but hey, I dunno There is this whole warzone to go through and Iraq to cross. I don't know a whole bunch about Iraq, but i know its hot and you can't just walk across it. And there is that war thing. They are trying to avoid the violence, not walk through the worst of it.
It's still closer if you go around Iraq, isn't it?
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On September 15 2015 02:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 02:33 SoSexy wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 Plansix wrote:On September 15 2015 02:19 SoSexy wrote:
I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc. I am very interested how you expect refugees from Syria to get to Kuwait. Jordan was reported to have like 600-700K refugees and they are a very tiny country with a population of like 6 million total. Saudi Arabia isn't likely to take in anyone because its Saudi Arabia. Closer culture, closer politics, closer religion...last time I checked kuwait was also closer than Germany or Sweden but hey, I dunno There is this whole warzone to go through and Iraq to cross. I don't know a whole bunch about Iraq, but i know its hot and you can't just walk across it. And there is that war thing. They are trying to avoid the violence, not walk through the worst of it.
I'm not convinced. Lebanon, for example, is way closer. I believe it is simply because their neighbouring states won't take them in while relegating everything to Europe. They know we will be 'good souls' and help everyone. I am disgusted by countries like Saudi Arabia...
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On September 15 2015 02:43 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 02:41 Plansix wrote:On September 15 2015 02:33 SoSexy wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 Plansix wrote:On September 15 2015 02:19 SoSexy wrote:
I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc. I am very interested how you expect refugees from Syria to get to Kuwait. Jordan was reported to have like 600-700K refugees and they are a very tiny country with a population of like 6 million total. Saudi Arabia isn't likely to take in anyone because its Saudi Arabia. Closer culture, closer politics, closer religion...last time I checked kuwait was also closer than Germany or Sweden but hey, I dunno There is this whole warzone to go through and Iraq to cross. I don't know a whole bunch about Iraq, but i know its hot and you can't just walk across it. And there is that war thing. They are trying to avoid the violence, not walk through the worst of it. It's still closer if you go around Iraq, isn't it?
You sort of need to go through Iran or Saudi Arabia to do that. That wouldn't be my first plan.
On September 15 2015 02:47 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 02:41 Plansix wrote:On September 15 2015 02:33 SoSexy wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 Plansix wrote:On September 15 2015 02:19 SoSexy wrote:
I have no data, how many refugees are the 'brotherly' islamic country taking in? I am talking about Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait etc. I am very interested how you expect refugees from Syria to get to Kuwait. Jordan was reported to have like 600-700K refugees and they are a very tiny country with a population of like 6 million total. Saudi Arabia isn't likely to take in anyone because its Saudi Arabia. Closer culture, closer politics, closer religion...last time I checked kuwait was also closer than Germany or Sweden but hey, I dunno There is this whole warzone to go through and Iraq to cross. I don't know a whole bunch about Iraq, but i know its hot and you can't just walk across it. And there is that war thing. They are trying to avoid the violence, not walk through the worst of it. I'm not convinced. Lebanon, for example, is way closer. I believe it is simply because their neighbouring states won't take them in while relegating everything to Europe. They know we will be 'good souls' and help everyone. I am disgusted by countries like Saudi Arabia...
Lebanon has refugees too. Its been 4 years. Everyone is feeling the pressure of refugees. And those fleeing Syria are taking the path of fewest dictatorships.
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I also didn't think that all of the refugees originated from syria's most northwestern border. They all already trecked through a warzone.
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I heard a few undergrads discuss this at my uni and they googled the population of Germany, found out there are 80m people in Germany and looked at the figure, 800K immigrants, as Rassy said above, is 1% of the German population. When one guy said it's a bad idea and their conversation instantly took a turn toward the topic of racism, which I find weird.
How could someone as smart as Angela Merkel not realize that taking in 800K new people is a colossal task, especially when the EU's economy is shaky... I mean, Germany can certainly use some workers, but those people have to live somewhere and the infrastructure of the country can't host 800K new people. No country has that many living spaces on standby except maybe China because of its ghost towns, but even then China couldn't just open its doors to the equivalent of 1% of its population.
It has nothing to do with racism, but it's insane to put blinders on and assume that everything will fall into place. Refugees are expensive. Anyway Germany clearly is the European country that can take in the most, and perhaps benefit the most in the long run...
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EPT
