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On September 08 2015 01:39 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 01:13 Gorsameth wrote:On September 08 2015 00:57 maybenexttime wrote:On September 07 2015 08:51 Faust852 wrote:
The netherlands has already a far-right PM, Hungary too. Poland might elect one too. Poland is not going to have a far-right PM anytime soon. Law and Justice (PiS) is not a far-right party, it is rather center-right. It is milder than Hungary's Fidesz, which I wouldn't consider far-right either. Jobbik is far-right. Dont worry, his post is wrong in multiple counts. Netherlands hasn't had a far-right PM either. I corrected myself about the NL PM, I misread wikipedia. And wasn't PiS taken over by nationalist ? I might by out of date but I'm fairly sure I read about that somewhere.
PiS is like a very mild version of the Hungarian ruling party. Theyre in ECR group in the European Parliament together with English Conservative Party. Muslim immigration is not a big topic in our politics so even if PiS manages to win the elections we shouldnt expect some strong anti-immigrant actions from the Polish government.
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I'd be a ton more surprised if Germany was less wildly acepting of the syrian refugees. Their experiences with turkish immigrants are a lesson that other euro countries probably just have never had. Before that mass migrations of people were probably thought to be a hostile act by those "different" people coming to take their things.
Not saying its not a shitty thing to refuse people escaping war zones to your country but not everyone can be as accepting of immigrants as America.
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What does Europe stand to gain from these refugees?
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On September 08 2015 14:39 Sermokala wrote:
I'd be a ton more surprised if Germany was less wildly acepting of the syrian refugees. Their experiences with turkish immigrants are a lesson that other euro countries probably just have never had. Before that mass migrations of people were probably thought to be a hostile act by those "different" people coming to take their things.
Not saying its not a shitty thing to refuse people escaping war zones to your country but not everyone can be as accepting of immigrants as America.
You really should brush up on your history of Europe before making silly posts like this.
And USA is not all that accepting of immigrants - just ask any of the vast numbers of illegals...
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On September 08 2015 14:39 Sermokala wrote:
I'd be a ton more surprised if Germany was less wildly acepting of the syrian refugees. Their experiences with turkish immigrants are a lesson that other euro countries probably just have never had. Before that mass migrations of people were probably thought to be a hostile act by those "different" people coming to take their things.
Not everyone has had positive experiences with Muslim immigrants. Perhaps it's not just ignorance that makes people question whether or not it's a good idea.
General consensus seems to be somewhat split on what to do with immigrants, but doesn't seem like too many people are fond of Hungary's solution. I'm not too fond of it either.
On September 08 2015 15:00 Ghostcom wrote:
And USA is not all that accepting of immigrants - just ask any of the vast numbers of illegals...
US policy on illegals is a bit of a strange one. Rule of thumb I've found throughout the decades is that it's important how you come into the country, more so than if you are legal or not. If you come in legally but (illegally) never leave, you might be able to gain citizenship in a decade or two. If you came in illegally, you will probably be deported as soon as you're found out.
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I didn't know Islam defines a race now.
Yes, Eastern European countries are pretty intolerant from "our" viewpoint. But it's too easy to pick on them from the outside. We are talking about small countries that had to defend their identities against larger cultures for a long time. And the memories of the conflict against the Ottoman Empire, that was stylized into a conflict between Muslims and Christians, might still be alive in some of those countries.
Given that Muslim countries don't exactly appear like successful model countries in the news right now and Christians are the targets of raving Islamists in some parts of the world, it's not exactly hard to understand why there would be an animosity towards Muslim immigrants in countries that are hardly used to immigrants at all.
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On September 08 2015 14:43 Mohdoo wrote:
What does Europe stand to gain from these refugees?
clean conscience maybe.
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Most (not all) Europeans who are worried about the immigration wave arent hating on refugees from Syria, fleeing a warzone. Most of those are really afraid and glad that they could leave their countries alive.
The more worrisome thing is that there s absolutely no way to tell, who is coming together with the actual refugees. Lots of people just leave their country cuz the EU is a better place, and with an incomparably better social-net. Even the most liberal, most socialist, most advanced countries of the EU, the Scandinavian states saw a surge of the anti-immigration rhetoric, in the past few years, and that wasnt even caused by this wave that started aprox 3-4 months ago.
I dont think that actual terrorists are hiding among the refugees, but the possibility alone frightens many people.
Overall there are too many individual stories and aspects of this whole thing. I bet if someone is shown only the bad side of the events can quickly become a "racist" and if someone only sees the real/sad part of the events, cannot help but be a liberal activist
- imigrants talking about how they calculated the amount they re gonna get from social security in Germany; destroying property; stealing; others throwing bottled water back at the volunteers; leaving a huge mess behind when they move on.
How can you not hate that?
- the individual stories of people fleeing warzones, the tears in their eyes when they get rations from volunteers, orphans playing in the dirt, stories about their lost family members, the look in their eyes that they feel so much more safe now in an abandoned subway, than they did a few weeks before.
How can u not wanna help them?
I'm not saying that the truth is always right in the middle, cuz it never is, but i dont really blame most people on either side of this argument. it just depends how far are you on the scale.
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no one really talks about or fears terrorism here; this is mostly about the fear of them coming to conquer us.
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Zurich15366 Posts
Same here. Sadly, the main issue people seem to have is that refugees tend to be brown and wear scarfs.
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On September 08 2015 15:23 LegalLord wrote: Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 15:00 Ghostcom wrote:
And USA is not all that accepting of immigrants - just ask any of the vast numbers of illegals... US policy on illegals is a bit of a strange one. Rule of thumb I've found throughout the decades is that it's important how you come into the country, more so than if you are legal or not. If you come in legally but (illegally) never leave, you might be able to gain citizenship in a decade or two. If you came in illegally, you will probably be deported as soon as you're found out.
I agree that the US treat their immigrants very schizophrenic (however I know of at least one Dane who is unable to enter the US again because he overstayed his visa). The treatment of the immigrants in EU (NOT the refugees) should be compared to the treatment the USA gives to those who enter the country illegally - and it that regards the USA really doesn't have any bragging rights.
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Unfortunately with this discussion it seems that if you don't pick the right side you're actually a racist bastard.
It's so hard to discern the legitimate arguments from the racist ones and the "anti-racist" comments from arguments that might actually make sense. It's a political mess.
Every country surely has the means to accommodate some refugees, but no one has the resources (or should have the resources) to take everyone in. If Europe had a backbone it would be setting up actual humanitarian aid somewhere between EU and the warzone. Instead, it's a political mess with twisted ideologies making things even worse.
All I can say is that the people in charge of the world are doing an amazingly crappy job.
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Racist Europeans still accept way more Syrian refugees than North Americans or rich muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, don't they?
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I feel like all this crises will have so much impact that europeans will soon be beging for nato \ western powers to go into Syria and end the war.
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Seems like Russia is doing this all on its own...
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Zurich15366 Posts
On September 08 2015 18:51 Velr wrote:
Seems like Russia is doing this all on its own...
It's really not though, and all it does is contribute further to the crisis.
As horrible as ISIS is, the vast majority of the 250.000 dead and millions of refugees are on the regime. Supporting Assad will create more dead and more refugees, not less. Or, more generally, as long as Russia/Iran support Assad, the West supports FSA/Kurds, and various Arabs support ISIS, the war will escalate further, not end.
To go back on topic, seeing how divided the West and Russia currently are, there doesn't seem to be a solution to the war anywhere in sight, so we can expect more and more refugees.
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It takes two to tango. Or three in this case. Syria was much safer place to live in when Assad ruled unchallenged. Its beyond me how You can spin things around and blame him for defending himself and his tribe and trying to paint ISIS as the lesser evil. World needs more autoritarian states in ME not less, its safer this way (though its not ideal of course but guess what, world isnt perfect place).
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Welp, as terrible as Assad is, the current observation is that without a dictator leading the middle east countries, ton of shit happens. Lybia with Gaddafi, Syria with Assad, Egypt with Mubarak and now el-Sisi. Iraq and Hussein.
Every damn time the dictator is outed, fucking millions die. Apparently middle-east need to be taken in-check to keep secularism and fonctionning as a society.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On September 08 2015 19:22 Silvanel wrote:
Syria was much safer place to live in when Assad ruled unchallenged.
Was, as in past tense. Once he was challenged, he made Syria the worst place on Earth. Believing that supporting Assad will bring back the stable dictatorship is pure fantasy. All it will create is more dead and more refugees.
This of course goes for any of the 3 or 4 parties of the Syrian civil war.
Like I said, with the current divide among influencing powers (mainly the West and Russia) the war will get worse, and more refugees will seek to go to Europe. This is simply a reality Europe has to face.
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EPT
