|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On September 08 2015 19:30 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 19:22 Silvanel wrote:
Syria was much safer place to live in when Assad ruled unchallenged. Was, as in past tense. Once he was challenged, he made Syria the worst place on Earth. Believing that supporting Assad will bring back the stable dictatorship is pure fantasy. All it will create is more dead and more refugees. This of course goes for any of the 3 or 4 parties of the Syrian civil war. Like I said, with the current divide among influencing powers (mainly the West and Russia) the war will get worse, and more refugees will seek to go to Europe. This is simply a reality Europe has to face.
A reality that Germany wants Europe to face.
|
Yeah. You want to take other countries to take resposibility for Your failures? Lets face it everyone knows that weapon provided for FSA ends up in hands of ISIS/Al-Nusra and is used to fight YPD, Iraq SF and Assad. I know one European country which sends shitloads of weapons there. Want to play guess game? It starts with letter G and its not Greece.
|
On September 08 2015 19:54 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah. You want to take other countries to take resposibility for Your failures? Lets face it everyone knows that weapon provided for FSA ends up in hands of ISIS/Al-Nusra and is used to fight YPD, Iraq SF and Assad. I know one European country which sends shitloads of weapons there. Want to play guess game? It starts with letter G and its not Greece.
Dammit Georgia ! You know you needed those weapon !
|
On September 08 2015 19:54 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah. You want to take other countries to take resposibility for Your failures? Lets face it everyone knows that weapon provided for FSA ends up in hands of ISIS/Al-Nusra and is used to fight YPD, Iraq SF and Assad. I know one European country which sends shitloads of weapons there. Want to play guess game? It starts with letter G and its not Greece.
Great Britain?
Germany does send weapons to the Kurds in Iraq, but not to the FSA.
Here is an actual report about the origins of the weapons used by ISIS:
http://www.conflictarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Dispatch_IS_Iraq_Syria_Ammunition.pdf
|
Zurich15365 Posts
On September 08 2015 19:54 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah. You want to take other countries to take resposibility for Your failures? Lets face it everyone knows that weapon provided for FSA ends up in hands of ISIS/Al-Nusra and is used to fight YPD, Iraq SF and Assad. I know one European country which sends shitloads of weapons there. Want to play guess game? It starts with letter G and its not Greece.
I don't know what you are trying to tell me. More and more refugees will come. This is a fact and has nothing to do with what I personally want. It is something that Europe will have to face, that is also a fact.
Now how exactly Europe will face it is open. As can be seen in this thread there are plenty of diverging positions on it. Germany has one, others have different ones. None of these differences will change the fact that refugees will continue to pour out of Syria.
|
I`m yet to see real refugees. I wouldn`t call these 20-25 years old males - refugees.
|
Where in the article does it say that? You mean accepting only Christians? How is that even racist? Not only is not racist, but it's also a very sensible policy. We don't need refugees that will surely fail to integrate.
|
|
|
|
|
All i can say is i was protesting our involvment. Didnt changed much sadly.
|
On September 08 2015 19:57 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 19:54 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah. You want to take other countries to take resposibility for Your failures? Lets face it everyone knows that weapon provided for FSA ends up in hands of ISIS/Al-Nusra and is used to fight YPD, Iraq SF and Assad. I know one European country which sends shitloads of weapons there. Want to play guess game? It starts with letter G and its not Greece. Great Britain? Germany does send weapons to the Kurds in Iraq, but not to the FSA. Here is an actual report about the origins of the weapons used by ISIS: http://www.conflictarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Dispatch_IS_Iraq_Syria_Ammunition.pdf
My guess is Gibraltar.
The then government (2001-2005) by-passed the parliament and joined the war. The public opinion was very much against it, there were protests. Below you have a poll showing that on the brink of war 61% of the polled people were against any intervention regardless of any circumstances. 28% were in favor only if the UN commission proved the existence of WMD's. Only 6% were in favor of the war regardless of the findings of the commission. The responsible party (SLD) lost the next election and lost 161 seats out of 216 that it used to have. One of the reasons was the intervention in Iraq. While it is shameful that my country took part in it, what else do you expect us to have done? Stage a coup d'etat?
http://www.cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2003/K_051_03.PDF
|
On September 08 2015 20:29 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 19:57 Maenander wrote:On September 08 2015 19:54 Silvanel wrote:
Yeah. You want to take other countries to take resposibility for Your failures? Lets face it everyone knows that weapon provided for FSA ends up in hands of ISIS/Al-Nusra and is used to fight YPD, Iraq SF and Assad. I know one European country which sends shitloads of weapons there. Want to play guess game? It starts with letter G and its not Greece. Great Britain? Germany does send weapons to the Kurds in Iraq, but not to the FSA. Here is an actual report about the origins of the weapons used by ISIS: http://www.conflictarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Dispatch_IS_Iraq_Syria_Ammunition.pdf My guess is Gibraltar. The then government (2001-2005) by-passed the parliament and joined the war. The public opinion was very much against it, there were protests. Below you have a poll showing that on the brink of war 61% of the polled people were against any intervention regardless of any circumstances. 28% were in favor only if the UN commission proved the existence of WMD's. Only 6% were in favor of the war regardless of the findings of the commission. The responsible party (SLD) lost the next election and lost 161 seats out of 216 that it used to have. One of the reasons was the intervention in Iraq. While it is shameful that my country took part in it, what else do you expect us to have done? Stage a coup d'etat? http://www.cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2003/K_051_03.PDF
I certainly don't blame the Polish people, but I don't see how you can blame the German people for Syria and Iraq more than yourself.
btw I also think this uncontrolled migration is a mistake. The EU should have provided a legal way for Syrian refugees in the camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey to apply for asylum and should have made it the only legal way.
Now that we sent out the message lots of people (not only Syrians) are encouraged to storm the European borders. Not only weigh potential deaths on the way on our conscience, the numbers might also grow to a point that is unsustainable.
|
I disagree with blaming Germany and other Western European countries but I think its a bit hypocritical of them to demand solidarity when they need help in dealing with their immigrant problem but refusing solidarity when Russians blackmail Eastern Europeans with gas prices or trade sanctions. Im not saying anyone has a moral high ground here, I mean we should stop pointing fingers at each other.
|
Zurich15365 Posts
On September 08 2015 20:13 Silvanel wrote:I am trying to tell You that You dont have a moral high ground here. Germany is at least partialy responsible for the mess Syria/Iraq is right now. And while You talking about solidarity Your governemnt is supporiting projects that directly violates polish intrests: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/04/russia-forum-nord-stream-idUSL5N11A0G420150904How can You expect solidarity when You dont show one yourself?
I am not arguing any ethical question, so I really don't need to claim any moral high ground. I also wasn't "talking about solidarity" so no idea where this is coming from all of a sudden. All I was saying that more refugees will come.
I think this discussion, and this thread, would work much better if you would address Germany by saying "Germany" instead of "you". I might be German but that doesn't mean that I support just about any German policy - similar to how maybenexttime doesn't feel responsible for Poland's decision to invade Iraq.
|
i'm thinking theEast would rather go under Russia than receive muslim immigrants by their thousands.
|
My slowakian friends (well, the families of my friends) would immediatly flee their Country if it would come back under russian control so... No, i highly doubt that.
|
well not control/suzerainty to not scare people right of the bat, but they'll start going more and more to the left, to the left...
|
On September 08 2015 20:13 Silvanel wrote:Edit:To Zatic I am trying to tell You that You dont have a moral high ground here. Germany is at least partialy responsible for the mess Syria/Iraq is right now. And while You talking about solidarity Your governemnt is supporiting projects that directly violates polish intrests: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/04/russia-forum-nord-stream-idUSL5N11A0G420150904How can You expect solidarity when You dont show one yourself?
While we are at, why don't we point finger to US instead. Or more so let's go blame capitalism
|
On September 08 2015 22:11 BurningSera wrote:While we are at, why don't we point finger to US instead. Or more so let's go blame capitalism
Blaming the US seems like a good option. We can't directly help and can only throw money at the problem, so we are an easy scapegoat. Nothing brings people together like a pointing the finger at someone else and that is what the EU needs right now.
Note: Totally not sarcastic. Assigning blame pointless when it comes to resolving the problem, so just blame the US.
|
On September 08 2015 19:28 Faust852 wrote:
Welp, as terrible as Assad is, the current observation is that without a dictator leading the middle east countries, ton of shit happens. Lybia with Gaddafi, Syria with Assad, Egypt with Mubarak and now el-Sisi. Iraq and Hussein.
Every damn time the dictator is outed, fucking millions die. Apparently middle-east need to be taken in-check to keep secularism and fonctionning as a society.
Unfortunately it seems that heavy-handed puppet dictatorships are the best way of dealing with Muslim nations and their inherent instability. The examples you mentioned are just a few among many; I could honestly think of more cases in which exactly what you describe has happened.
What too many people don't understand is that a democratic system isn't always viable and only really works in a stable society that is capable of respecting decisions made through the democratic process. Sadly there isn't one government system that fits for all occasions in life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
