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On September 08 2015 22:45 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 19:28 Faust852 wrote:
Welp, as terrible as Assad is, the current observation is that without a dictator leading the middle east countries, ton of shit happens. Lybia with Gaddafi, Syria with Assad, Egypt with Mubarak and now el-Sisi. Iraq and Hussein.
Every damn time the dictator is outed, fucking millions die. Apparently middle-east need to be taken in-check to keep secularism and fonctionning as a society. Unfortunately it seems that heavy-handed puppet dictatorships are the best way of dealing with Muslim nations and their inherent instability. The examples you mentioned are just a few among many; I could honestly think of more cases in which exactly what you describe has happened. What too many people don't understand is that a democratic system isn't always viable and only really works in a stable society that is capable of respecting decisions made through the democratic process. Sadly there isn't one government system that fits for all occasions in life.
There is an ongoing there that democratic traditions are required to have successful democratic state. All of the EU nations and the US went through a long and difficult process of creating democratic states through trial and error. These are not things that happen over night. The fear of repression is real for a lot of the middle east and is the assumed outcome if the candidate that they wanted is not elected. There is also the issue that there might be no one qualified to elect because of the gross repression of the previous regime.
The Middle East has not been able to go through the process due to a number of external and internal reasons, including tons of money being dumped into the region by oil sales. It makes it difficult to go through the process when every other western nation is concerned the whoever democratically elected might not sell them oil or be an ally.
Also, there are numerous Muslim countries that are reasonable peaceful. Just not Syria or Iraq. Or any of the other ones my country decided to mess around with during the Bush era.
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It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two.
Also, please name those countries and how democratic they are.
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On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two.
How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process.
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On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process.
Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there.
On the other side of the argument I would like to think that even with a lower median level of education the average person from the middle east is more progressive than 17-18th century Europeans. Otherwise you'd have a very serious case as to why they shouldn't come here, rofl.
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On September 06 2015 18:34 Simberto wrote:
A main reason why a lot of the refugees (especially from syria) try to reach Germany as opposed to other EU states on the way is not necessarily economical. There is a huge difference in your chance of being granted refugee status depending on which country you end up in throughout the EU. This is obviously quite silly. Sadly i can't find the statistics for this, but i remember there being gigantic differences between countries. Syrians had a ~70% acceptance in Hungary, and 100% in Germany for example. Some other group had ~12% in France and 80% or so in the UK, so they would all try to cross over from France to the UK, and obviously France wouldn't stop them because they were glad to be rid of them.
What this crisis demonstrates is that the EU needs to have a common refugee policy. This would take a large burden off of the shoulders of the countries that border crisis regions, and would also make the whole system a lot less comically silly. Just redistribute all of the refugees found in EU countries fairly throughout them. Have a common policy as to which refugees are accepted and which are not. Currently everyone is just happy to try to make the refugees someone elses problem as best as they can.
What i can not understand is why there seems to be no political will to make this happen. This common situation is obviously a clusterfuck. Depending on which country you come from, your acceptance rate varies widely depending on where you apply for asylum in the EU, so obviously smart refugees will try to get to the countries with the highest acceptance rate.
EU countries should really stop their bickering and infighting, and try to become more of a union that works together for a common good as opposed to this alliance of convenience where everyone tries to pull as much out of the union for themselves as they can.
I agree for the most part, just not with the redistribute. Allow them the same freedom to move within Schengen that every other resident (migrant or otherwise) has within Schengen.
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On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there.
You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in.
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On September 08 2015 23:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there. You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in.
The arab spring happened in around ~20 countries, in all of which it failed. Discounting stuff like western assistance etc completely as well. Or did I miss alien fighter planes during the English civil war?
I could also point out that the people who fought for democracy usually turned around and elected some crazy muslim extremist nutjob given the chance
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On September 07 2015 05:05 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 05:00 Plansix wrote:
The shocking revelation that people form less developed countries with oppressive regimes are less educated. Not really a Muslim issue, more of the state of countries in the middle east. You sure about that? While it may be true, I don't really think that that's something you can take on faith because religion does certainly play a role in education and one's views on it.
If that were actually the case, then the education in the bible belt of the US should be lagging behind that of less religious states. Yet it isn't. Education is far more correlated with wealth than with religiousness.
And don't tell me bible-thumping evangelicals in Oklahoma are more likely to accept "science and modern law" than Islamic Syrians. These are the same people who vehemently oppose gay marriage, think creationism should be taught in biology class and abstinence-only is good sex ed.
EDIT: sorry to all Oklahomans for picking your state as an example. I could have picked any other state in the bible belt as well, I just like the sound of Oklahoma.
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On September 08 2015 22:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 22:45 LegalLord wrote:On September 08 2015 19:28 Faust852 wrote:
Welp, as terrible as Assad is, the current observation is that without a dictator leading the middle east countries, ton of shit happens. Lybia with Gaddafi, Syria with Assad, Egypt with Mubarak and now el-Sisi. Iraq and Hussein.
Every damn time the dictator is outed, fucking millions die. Apparently middle-east need to be taken in-check to keep secularism and fonctionning as a society. Unfortunately it seems that heavy-handed puppet dictatorships are the best way of dealing with Muslim nations and their inherent instability. The examples you mentioned are just a few among many; I could honestly think of more cases in which exactly what you describe has happened. What too many people don't understand is that a democratic system isn't always viable and only really works in a stable society that is capable of respecting decisions made through the democratic process. Sadly there isn't one government system that fits for all occasions in life. There is an ongoing there that democratic traditions are required to have successful democratic state. All of the EU nations and the US went through a long and difficult process of creating democratic states through trial and error. These are not things that happen over night. The fear of repression is real for a lot of the middle east and is the assumed outcome if the candidate that they wanted is not elected. There is also the issue that there might be no one qualified to elect because of the gross repression of the previous regime. The Middle East has not been able to go through the process due to a number of external and internal reasons, including tons of money being dumped into the region by oil sales. It makes it difficult to go through the process when every other western nation is concerned the whoever democratically elected might not sell them oil or be an ally. Also, there are numerous Muslim countries that are reasonable peaceful. Just not Syria or Iraq. Or any of the other ones my country decided to mess around with during the Bush era.
There are several factors that you are ignoring here.
1) Europe was the first truly democratic continent. So ofc they had to do trial and error.
2) US had a much easier time to adopt a democratic system because they had the whole history of Europe to learn from and avoid their mistake.
3) Now the muslim countries also have this history to look at. They don't.
4) After the arab spring, they most imediatly lost their status of dictatorship to get a status of theocracy, which is in my opinion generally much worse (there are exception but well, very few).
5) In case the theocracy doesn't work (and it won't ofc), there is a coup d'état where the military take the control back again (cf. Egypt).
So yeah, muslim countries have everything in their hand to apply a secular democracy in their border. They can witness the greatness of US and EU, they can learn from them. The issue is that they don't want to because they value their religion above secular law and order.
Every muslim that wanted a secular life has already left long ago.
Now the best scenario I can imagine for the developement of these countries is as that :
=> Dictatorship (like of Hussein or )
=> Inheritage of dictatorship by a moderate (still a dictatorship). I'd like to think of Mohammed VI of Morroco.
=> New moderate muslim leader (Ayatollah, Imam, etc...) replacing the radicals.
=> The moderate dictators get replaced by benevolant dictators/one party, I think of Lee Kuan Yew (Singapor), or more likly Qaboos bin Said al Said from Oman impose a secular mind in their citizen in exchange of higher standard of life.
=> Transition to democratics countries.
But well, that's just a dream imho.
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On September 08 2015 23:36 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:34 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there. You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in. The arab spring happened in around ~20 countries, in all of which it failed. Discounting stuff like western assistance etc completely as well. Or did I miss alien fighter planes during the English civil war?
What did you expect, them instantly to create democratic nations in the span of 2 years? It took my country like 5 years after we won the war to write the constitution and get everyone on the same page. It was 10 over years before our government took office. And no one was dumping oil money into our region and we had no neighbors to fuck with us.
Faust852: But how many generations did it take to throw of theocracy for the EU? That doesn't happen over night either. It might happen faster for the Middle East when it starts, but it will take generations.
Acrofales: Just use Kentucky. No one will defend that state's population of religious wackjobs.
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On September 08 2015 23:40 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 05:05 LegalLord wrote:On September 07 2015 05:00 Plansix wrote:
The shocking revelation that people form less developed countries with oppressive regimes are less educated. Not really a Muslim issue, more of the state of countries in the middle east. You sure about that? While it may be true, I don't really think that that's something you can take on faith because religion does certainly play a role in education and one's views on it. If that were actually the case, then the education in the bible belt of the US should be lagging behind that of less religious states. Yet it isn't. Education is far more correlated with wealth than with religiousness. And don't tell me bible-thumping protestants in Oklahoma are more likely to accept "science and modern law" than Islamic Syrians. These are the same people who vehemently oppose gay marriage, think creationism should be taught in biology class and abstinence-only is good sex ed. EDIT: sorry to all Oklahomans for picking your state as an example. I could have picked any other state in the bible belt as well, I just like the sound of Oklahoma.
It's funny, because the traditional redneck states are all at the bottom of the pile when it comes to the average level of education within the US. They also like to vote for a presidential candidate who openly states that fewer people should go to university in the republican primaries.
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On September 08 2015 23:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:36 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:34 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there. You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in. The arab spring happened in around ~20 countries, in all of which it failed. Discounting stuff like western assistance etc completely as well. Or did I miss alien fighter planes during the English civil war? What did you expect, them instantly to create democratic nations in the span of 2 years? It took my country like 5 years after we won the war to write the constitution and get everyone on the same page. It was 10 over years before our government took office. And no one was dumping oil money into our region and we had no neighbors to fuck with us. Faust852: But how many generations did it take to throw of theocracy for the EU? That doesn't happen over night either. It might happen faster for the Middle East when it starts, but it will take generations.
So really what you are saying is that they're less competent than people who by modern standards are essentially cavemen rather than being able to draw on 200 years of knowledge on how to not decapitate those with a different imaginary friend?
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So Germany is taking in most of the refugees. But what about Sweden and Norway? They're doing nothing about this situation. Germany can't handle all the refugees. If I was German, I'd be furious.
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On September 08 2015 23:48 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:44 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:36 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:34 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there. You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in. The arab spring happened in around ~20 countries, in all of which it failed. Discounting stuff like western assistance etc completely as well. Or did I miss alien fighter planes during the English civil war? What did you expect, them instantly to create democratic nations in the span of 2 years? It took my country like 5 years after we won the war to write the constitution and get everyone on the same page. It was 10 over years before our government took office. And no one was dumping oil money into our region and we had no neighbors to fuck with us. Faust852: But how many generations did it take to throw of theocracy for the EU? That doesn't happen over night either. It might happen faster for the Middle East when it starts, but it will take generations. So really what you are saying is that they're less competent than people who by modern standards are essentially cavemen rather than being able to draw on 200 years of knowledge on how to not decapitate those with a different imaginary friend?
I am saying they are not magic people who can undo generations of theocratic rule in 2 years. Just because someone did it before doesn’t make instantly easier or faster. Just that they have a vague roadmap to success that will likely take their entire lifetime to accomplish if they are lucky.
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On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, also some business in Spain.
So according to your knowledge of history, Napoleon was something like the first elected French president or something ? Keep giving history lessons please.
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On September 08 2015 23:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:48 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:44 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:36 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:34 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there. You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in. The arab spring happened in around ~20 countries, in all of which it failed. Discounting stuff like western assistance etc completely as well. Or did I miss alien fighter planes during the English civil war? What did you expect, them instantly to create democratic nations in the span of 2 years? It took my country like 5 years after we won the war to write the constitution and get everyone on the same page. It was 10 over years before our government took office. And no one was dumping oil money into our region and we had no neighbors to fuck with us. Faust852: But how many generations did it take to throw of theocracy for the EU? That doesn't happen over night either. It might happen faster for the Middle East when it starts, but it will take generations. So really what you are saying is that they're less competent than people who by modern standards are essentially cavemen rather than being able to draw on 200 years of knowledge on how to not decapitate those with a different imaginary friend? I am saying they are not magic people who can undo generations of theocratic rule in 2 years. Just because someone did it before doesn’t make instantly easier or faster. Just that they have a vague roadmap to success that will likely take their entire lifetime to accomplish if they are lucky.
But they did. They just fucked it up afterwards. Also I wouldn't call all assistance rendered by the western world a vague roadmap. You always make it sounds like people are dimwitted individuals rather than being capable of rational, logical thought. Makes me wonder if you aren't the closet racist here. 
On September 08 2015 23:55 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, also some business in Spain. So according to your knowledge of history, Napoleon was something like the first elected French president or something ? Keep giving history lessons please.
You don't speak English very well, do you?
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On September 08 2015 23:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:36 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:34 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there. You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in. The arab spring happened in around ~20 countries, in all of which it failed. Discounting stuff like western assistance etc completely as well. Or did I miss alien fighter planes during the English civil war? What did you expect, them instantly to create democratic nations in the span of 2 years? It took my country like 5 years after we won the war to write the constitution and get everyone on the same page. It was 10 over years before our government took office. And no one was dumping oil money into our region and we had no neighbors to fuck with us. Faust852: But how many generations did it take to throw of theocracy for the EU? That doesn't happen over night either. It might happen faster for the Middle East when it starts, but it will take generations. Acrofales: Just use Kentucky. No one will defend that state's population of religious wackjobs.
Ehrm. I mean, the middle east is radicalizing, each generation is more radical than the other, not the other way around.
I mean in even 3 years they started from secular to theocracy. Those region are lost to islam because every people who think they are nutjobs is just leaving the region. In medieval age Europe you had no choice but to fight for your value, nowhere to flee. In middle east, you just ask for refugee status.
Islamisation is the biggest brain drain in history.
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On September 08 2015 23:40 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 05:05 LegalLord wrote:On September 07 2015 05:00 Plansix wrote:
The shocking revelation that people form less developed countries with oppressive regimes are less educated. Not really a Muslim issue, more of the state of countries in the middle east. You sure about that? While it may be true, I don't really think that that's something you can take on faith because religion does certainly play a role in education and one's views on it. If that were actually the case, then the education in the bible belt of the US should be lagging behind that of less religious states. Yet it isn't. Education is far more correlated with wealth than with religiousness.
Um... I'm not sure how exactly you extrapolated that conclusion from my post. I really have no idea what you are referring to and how that has anything in particular to do with my inquiry as to if education is "not really a Muslim issue."
On September 08 2015 23:40 Acrofales wrote:And don't tell me bible-thumping evangelicals in Oklahoma are more likely to accept "science and modern law" than Islamic Syrians. These are the same people who vehemently oppose gay marriage, think creationism should be taught in biology class and abstinence-only is good sex ed.
I live in a pretty strongly Republican state and I see why you might complain about education based on those who tend to be Republican. But I think you miss the point.
1. Republicans may be less educated or not, but it misses the point because the party campaigns more on emotions than on logic. The logic of their positions is generally well-known to be flawed.
2. Bible belt Christians don't advocate mass murdering people who support positions that they don't agree with. Muslims have been known to do that, and the history of Islam is much bloodier than that of Christianity. And most "bible thumping evangelicals" have no problem with science that isn't biology, outside of a bit of FUD, and so yes, I would say that they are more likely to accept "science and modern law" than Islamic Syrians.
3. I would also ask as to whether or not the correlation is reversed (low education or intelligence leads to religiosity) or if maybe it's an American problem rather than a Christian one. I would be sympathetic to an argument that Americans are less intelligent than Europeans (because the selective pressures for intelligence are lower on this side of the world).
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On September 08 2015 23:57 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:44 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:36 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:34 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there. You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in. The arab spring happened in around ~20 countries, in all of which it failed. Discounting stuff like western assistance etc completely as well. Or did I miss alien fighter planes during the English civil war? What did you expect, them instantly to create democratic nations in the span of 2 years? It took my country like 5 years after we won the war to write the constitution and get everyone on the same page. It was 10 over years before our government took office. And no one was dumping oil money into our region and we had no neighbors to fuck with us. Faust852: But how many generations did it take to throw of theocracy for the EU? That doesn't happen over night either. It might happen faster for the Middle East when it starts, but it will take generations. Acrofales: Just use Kentucky. No one will defend that state's population of religious wackjobs. Ehrm. I mean, the middle east is radicalizing, each generation is more radical than the other, not the other way around. I mean in even 3 years they started from secular to theocracy. Those region are lost to islam because every people who think they are nutjobs is just leaving the region. In medieval age Europe you had no choice but to fight for your value, nowhere to flee. In middle east, you just ask for refugee status. Islamisation is the biggest brain drain in history.
You’re not wrong. The biggest problem that region faces is that the educated are fleeing on mass and there being no one create a passable government when these wars end. Of course, the endless supply of oil money being dumped into the region doesn’t help. Its allows for the funding of groups that normally couldn’t sustain themselves.
On September 08 2015 23:59 LegalLord wrote:
2. Bible belt Christians don't advocate mass murdering people who support positions that they don't agree with. Muslims have been known to do that, and the history of Islam is much bloodier than that of Christianity.
They would, if they could. But we would arrest them and throw them in jail for attempting to insight violence. But have no doubt we have a section of our population that would love christian law to the be law of the land. And they are all cheering for Trump.
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On September 09 2015 00:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2015 23:57 Faust852 wrote:On September 08 2015 23:44 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:36 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:34 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:26 dismiss wrote:On September 08 2015 23:25 Plansix wrote:On September 08 2015 23:21 dismiss wrote:
It's like you've never heard of the arab spring or looked at the results after a year or two. How many unsuccessful revolutions did Christian and EU countries have before you all figured it out? Its not a fast or clean process. Surprisingly few actually. Only the English Civil War and if you want to count the French Revolution that too, Also some business in Spain. Granted I don't know a whole lot about Eastern Europeans history of government, so there might be more there. You already named the same number as arab spring of the top of your head. No one has a perfect track record when it comes to reforming their nation. Success is not a give in. The arab spring happened in around ~20 countries, in all of which it failed. Discounting stuff like western assistance etc completely as well. Or did I miss alien fighter planes during the English civil war? What did you expect, them instantly to create democratic nations in the span of 2 years? It took my country like 5 years after we won the war to write the constitution and get everyone on the same page. It was 10 over years before our government took office. And no one was dumping oil money into our region and we had no neighbors to fuck with us. Faust852: But how many generations did it take to throw of theocracy for the EU? That doesn't happen over night either. It might happen faster for the Middle East when it starts, but it will take generations. Acrofales: Just use Kentucky. No one will defend that state's population of religious wackjobs. Ehrm. I mean, the middle east is radicalizing, each generation is more radical than the other, not the other way around. I mean in even 3 years they started from secular to theocracy. Those region are lost to islam because every people who think they are nutjobs is just leaving the region. In medieval age Europe you had no choice but to fight for your value, nowhere to flee. In middle east, you just ask for refugee status. Islamisation is the biggest brain drain in history. You’re not wrong. The biggest problem that region faces is that the educated are fleeing on mass and there being no one create a passable government when these wars end. Of course, the endless supply of oil money being dumped into the region doesn’t help. Its allows for the funding of groups that normally couldn’t sustain themselves.
So we agree that their is absolutly no solution for them ? What to do ?
Imho we should choice the lesser of both evil. A secular dictatorship, alike to pre-arab spring.
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EPT
