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On September 07 2015 05:46 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 05:42 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2015 05:18 Faust852 wrote:On September 07 2015 05:07 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2015 05:05 LegalLord wrote:On September 07 2015 05:00 Plansix wrote:
The shocking revelation that people form less developed countries with oppressive regimes are less educated. Not really a Muslim issue, more of the state of countries in the middle east. You sure about that? While it may be true, I don't really think that that's something you can take on faith because religion does certainly play a role in education and one's views on it. I am sure education would lead to the country being more secular. The EU proved this by educating its population. Of course, like in EU, the people who gain power through the religion would oppose this. That has nothting to do with the religion itself, as Christianity was used to justify some horrid shit back in the day. I don't know, muslim who migrated to secular countries have difficulties to integrate. What is really weird though is that 1st generation of migrant are pretty much integrated, but now the third is completly clashing with the EU culture while imposing their ideological values to the rest. This is nothing new. America has this problem when the Irish Catholics immigrated and everyone believed they did whatever the Pope said. The simple fact was that the Irish were from a uneducated peasant culture and the church were the most educated people around. So they listened to the church first. It took them well over 50 years to really shed that stigma even after they stopped hanging on every announcement from the Vatican. And we still deal with that shit with the views of birthcontrol, divorce and women's health. But yes, they are not going to instantly become part of the EU overnight night. Secular Muslim beliefs have to develop naturally in any country. And they have. People forget how secular Iran was prior to the coup. No, the issue is backward. 1st generation had almost no issue integrating, the issue is that the children of their children are radicalizing for some reason. I posted a study that said that while only 15% of the 55+ muslim were for a shariah law in EU, more than 50 in the >30 were in favor of it. That's my issue, there is a "renouveau" of extremism coming from muslim that didn't exist before. I have some clue as to why but it would be conjecture from my part.
First of all think about who left and when they left. A good example is Iranians who fleed the revolution. Mostly highly educated secular people fleeing a religious regime. They came to Europe at the peak of growth and had every opportunity to integrate.
Nowdays Iranians basically means Kurds, often from more rural areas. Less secular (not always muslim tho), less educated and coming to a society where even educated native speakers have trouble finding work. Integration is not as easy.
This probably also effect third generation immigrants at least if they live in segregation. There are less oportunities so more people get radical.
Its happening for ethnic young educated Swedes to. People expect at least the same standard of living as their parents.
It used to be 2 cars, a house, a decent paying and more importantly secure job for both people in a relationship. And this was about age 30.
Today most families have one spouse who has poor job security (if they have a job) and a house costs about 10x your yearly income before taxes which gives you an unreasonable ammount of debt.
People have expectations on where their life should be at 30 but they keep having to push forward kids and the house they dream about.
Which turns even educated people towards racism and more extreme parties or the far left.
And thats the succesful priviliged people! Imagine what happens if your on the bottom looking up.
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On September 07 2015 06:07 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 05:46 Faust852 wrote:On September 07 2015 05:42 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2015 05:18 Faust852 wrote:On September 07 2015 05:07 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2015 05:05 LegalLord wrote:On September 07 2015 05:00 Plansix wrote:
The shocking revelation that people form less developed countries with oppressive regimes are less educated. Not really a Muslim issue, more of the state of countries in the middle east. You sure about that? While it may be true, I don't really think that that's something you can take on faith because religion does certainly play a role in education and one's views on it. I am sure education would lead to the country being more secular. The EU proved this by educating its population. Of course, like in EU, the people who gain power through the religion would oppose this. That has nothting to do with the religion itself, as Christianity was used to justify some horrid shit back in the day. I don't know, muslim who migrated to secular countries have difficulties to integrate. What is really weird though is that 1st generation of migrant are pretty much integrated, but now the third is completly clashing with the EU culture while imposing their ideological values to the rest. This is nothing new. America has this problem when the Irish Catholics immigrated and everyone believed they did whatever the Pope said. The simple fact was that the Irish were from a uneducated peasant culture and the church were the most educated people around. So they listened to the church first. It took them well over 50 years to really shed that stigma even after they stopped hanging on every announcement from the Vatican. And we still deal with that shit with the views of birthcontrol, divorce and women's health. But yes, they are not going to instantly become part of the EU overnight night. Secular Muslim beliefs have to develop naturally in any country. And they have. People forget how secular Iran was prior to the coup. No, the issue is backward. 1st generation had almost no issue integrating, the issue is that the children of their children are radicalizing for some reason. I posted a study that said that while only 15% of the 55+ muslim were for a shariah law in EU, more than 50 in the >30 were in favor of it. That's my issue, there is a "renouveau" of extremism coming from muslim that didn't exist before. I have some clue as to why but it would be conjecture from my part. First of all think about who left and when they left. A good example is Iranians who fleed the revolution. Mostly highly educated secular people fleeing a religious regime. They came to Europe at the peak of growth and had every opportunity to integrate. Nowdays Iranians basically means Kurds, often from more rural areas. Less secular (not always muslim tho), less educated and coming to a society where even educated native speakers have trouble finding work. Integration is not as easy. This probably also effect third generation immigrants at least if they live in segregation. There are less oportunities so more people get radical. Its happening for ethnic young educated Swedes to. People expect at least the same standard of living as their parents. It used to be 2 cars, a house, a decent paying and more importantly secure job for both people in a relationship. And this was about age 30. Today most families have one spouse who has poor job security (if they have a job) and a house costs about 10x your yearly income before taxes which gives you an unreasonable ammount of debt. People have expectations on where their life should be at 30 but they keep having to push forward kids and the house they dream about. Which turns even educated people towards racism and more extreme parties or the far left. And thats the succesful priviliged people! Imagine what happens if your on the bottom looking up.
Yep, I totally agree with you. Add to that that the "common fear" moved from the soviet to the middle east and you got an ugly situation like we are seeing now. That's why I'm all for restructuring the EU before opening the gate and flooding the EU with low education workforce. It won't work, at all. There are absolutly no job for them, and healthcare well is drying up fast.
We dealed really poorly with the previous wave of migrants, stucking all of them in ugly grey building, except now we don't even got these building and housing is fucking expensive. I see you are from Sweden so you know how horrible the situation is there (Where I live it is different but for other reason :p).
At that, you got the media who say thing like "An migrant receive 38€/day in Belgium". Imagine how fucking mad lower class Belgians would be when they don't even got 2/3 of that sum after working 35 years, and paying insane high taxe ?
So yeah, the whole system is fucked up and its gonna get worse with the current afflux of migrants.
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On September 07 2015 05:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 05:54 LegalLord wrote:On September 07 2015 05:07 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2015 05:05 LegalLord wrote:On September 07 2015 05:00 Plansix wrote:
The shocking revelation that people form less developed countries with oppressive regimes are less educated. Not really a Muslim issue, more of the state of countries in the middle east. You sure about that? While it may be true, I don't really think that that's something you can take on faith because religion does certainly play a role in education and one's views on it. I am sure education would lead to the country being more secular. The EU proved this by educating its population. Of course, like in EU, the people who gain power through the religion would oppose this. That has nothting to do with the religion itself, as Christianity was used to justify some horrid shit back in the day. And yet, to think that religion has no bearing on whether or not a person will be more open to further education is naive at best. Culture is not incidental - it influences the development of a nation as well. For as much flak as Mitt Romney got for saying that Israel is more successful than Palestine because of a more effective culture, he was quite right. And those who tend to value education less will probably be less willing to cooperate with a push for more of it. Nothing you said was untrue. But nothing to said is set in stone either. People can change and leave culture behind. And all the arguments being made are the same ones that were made against every immigrant population in history. During the Irish immigration to the US, you would have found the exact same claims against them and their culture. http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/nromcath.htmThis break down provides some insight and you can see the parallels between the concerns of people in the EU now and those of the US in the 1850.
I'm well aware of how the apparently "lesser" immigrants were perceived during mass immigration in that era. I am, however, pretty unconvinced that Catholics and Muslims are equivalent. I have at least a few reasons to think that the cultural differences between the two are significant:
1. Catholics are still Christians. Historically, it has been a lot easier to accept individuals of other Christian faiths than to accept those that are not.
2. Islam has a far more violent history than Christianity. The Crusades and the general repression of the Middle Ages don't even hold a candle to the extent of violence that has been invoked in the name of Islam.
3. Pretty much every stable country that has substantial Muslim populations (Israel, Russia, France, UK, Germany, some others), they tend to be pretty substantially less successful than those of Christian/Jewish/nonreligious origins. One might wonder whether or not this is more than coincidence.
4. Your idea that culture can change presumes that the individuals in question are interested in change. I am not convinced that this is true. An immigrant who refuses to at least partially integrate into his/her host country is, in my eyes, a malicious one that should not be kept.
In particular, the concerns as outlined in your article seem to be those of garden-variety fear of immigrants. I don't think that's really the case here.
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On September 07 2015 06:35 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 05:55 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2015 05:54 LegalLord wrote:On September 07 2015 05:07 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2015 05:05 LegalLord wrote:On September 07 2015 05:00 Plansix wrote:
The shocking revelation that people form less developed countries with oppressive regimes are less educated. Not really a Muslim issue, more of the state of countries in the middle east. You sure about that? While it may be true, I don't really think that that's something you can take on faith because religion does certainly play a role in education and one's views on it. I am sure education would lead to the country being more secular. The EU proved this by educating its population. Of course, like in EU, the people who gain power through the religion would oppose this. That has nothting to do with the religion itself, as Christianity was used to justify some horrid shit back in the day. And yet, to think that religion has no bearing on whether or not a person will be more open to further education is naive at best. Culture is not incidental - it influences the development of a nation as well. For as much flak as Mitt Romney got for saying that Israel is more successful than Palestine because of a more effective culture, he was quite right. And those who tend to value education less will probably be less willing to cooperate with a push for more of it. Nothing you said was untrue. But nothing to said is set in stone either. People can change and leave culture behind. And all the arguments being made are the same ones that were made against every immigrant population in history. During the Irish immigration to the US, you would have found the exact same claims against them and their culture. http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/nromcath.htmThis break down provides some insight and you can see the parallels between the concerns of people in the EU now and those of the US in the 1850. I'm well aware of how the apparently "lesser" immigrants were perceived during mass immigration in that era. I am, however, pretty unconvinced that Catholics and Muslims are equivalent. I have at least a few reasons to think that the cultural differences between the two are significant: 1. Catholics are still Christians. Historically, it has been a lot easier to accept individuals of other Christian faiths than to accept those that are not. 2. Islam has a far more violent history than Christianity. The Crusades and the general repression of the Middle Ages don't even hold a candle to the extent of violence that has been invoked in the name of Islam. 3. Pretty much every stable country that has substantial Muslim populations (Israel, Russia, France, UK, Germany, some others), they tend to be pretty substantially less successful than those of Christian/Jewish/nonreligious origins. One might wonder whether or not this is more than coincidence. 4. Your idea that culture can change presumes that the individuals in question are interested in change. I am not convinced that this is true. An immigrant who refuses to at least partially integrate into his/her host country is, in my eyes, a malicious one that should not be kept. In particular, the concerns as outlined in your article seem to be those of garden-variety fear of immigrants. I don't think that's really the case here.
None of what you said was true and is sole based on bias against Muslims. The Crusades were incredibly violent and caused the countless deaths. Christianity has engaged and continued to engage in violent acts across the globe. They are just not reported on because they are against people in Africa and committed by and against Africans. Because none from the EU or US is involved, it isn't reported on. Or when it is, people just ignore it or make excuses. Like they are defending themselves against the horrible, violent Muslims that are fleeing their homes by the tents of thousands.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html
The simple fact is that there are 1.6 billion practicing Muslims in the world and only a small fraction of them display the traits you described. But the propaganda machine against them is in full swing, with all the same issues that we had in WW2 against the Japanese and the Irish in the 1850s.
Its the same story over and over again, but people make excuses why this time its different. This religion, race, people are different, more violent and more terrible than every before and we need to be scared of them. Its the same language and arguments. And people are falling for it all over again.
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There is no problem for Europe to take in a couple of million muslims or even more right now and i highly doubt that the majority will cause any problems but after 20-40 years you will see the real problem.
I dont want to say it out loud but you can choose to believe or not. Guess we will see in our lifetime but whoever lives with muslims knows the truth.
Maybe I'm just a bit biased but in 1999 we were so compassionate to take in close to half a million refugees from Kosovo in a country with 2 million population and they were so grateful that they invaded us 2 years after they were saved from slaughter and we were close to bloody civil war if we didnt made peace to satisfy their ridiculous demands in the end.
You can say it was a fight for "freedom and human rights" but its always been a fight for territory. You will either give them what they want or they will take it the easy or the hard way.
In the end there are 2 type of Muslims. The radical Muslim wants to cut your head off. The moderate Muslim wants the radical Muslim to cut your head of. Its just the nature of Islam in its core its to be violent and expansionist towards everyone else and even towards other musliums from different sects.
Christianty wasnt any better in the past but at least it evolved, imagine if we had crusades or witchunts till this day. Islam on the other hand its been the same for the past 1500 years and probably gotten even worse.
User was warned for this post
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On September 07 2015 04:45 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:limited cognitive abilities I'm not an hypocrite and, as a french, I am fairly aware of the tensions and problems that arise with immigration. But the idea that migrants have limited cognitive abilities is just stupid. It's something that is said for every wave of immigrants - there are, for exemple, articles that state the same about european immigrants coming from germany to the US in the early XXth century. We could, at the very least, prevent ourselves from relaying those stupid ideas. Btw the German immigrants to the US werent the cream of the crop either since at that time mostly the lower socio economic classes emigrated, which are often linked to lower intelligence levels as well. Well cognitive abilities was probably a poor choice of word but lack of education seems a bit soft for 15-20% of refugees who can neither read nor write migrating to an industrial nations whos language they are not capable speaking. Also experience with other immigrants from a similar cultural/ethnic backgrounds does not help to mitigate my concerns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_achievement_among_different_groups_in_Germany#Ethnic_group_differences "Second generation Greek students were more likely to attend a Gymnasium (college preparatory school) than their ethnic German counterparts. The same was true for students belonging to the Chinese or the Jewish-Russian minority. No other ethnic group in Germany were as successful as the Vietnamese, 50% of whom attended a Gymnasium, and the Koreans, 70% of whom attended a Gymnasium. Educational attainment of Muslim students differed by ethnic group. While 50.2% of students from Iran attended either a Realschule or a Gymnasium, only 12.7% of Lebanese students attended one of those schools." The iranian scores show that its not secret discrimination based on appearance but more related to ability/background. Although while iranian scores are better compared to other muslims they arent that great either. http://www.spiegel.de/international/integration-and-education-immigrants-in-germany-falling-behind-a-416429.html"When compared to native German students, first-generation immigrants (born outside of Germany) perform well below the average of first-generation immigrants in the 17 countries considered in the report. And the gap becomes even larger among second-generation immigrants (children with at least one parent born outside the country).Germany is the country with the largest disparity between first and second generation immigrants, the report says. Second-generation students lag behind their native peers by 93 score points, which is equivalent to one and a half proficiency levels. This is particularly disconcerting, as these students have spent their entire school career in Germany." Guess who is dragging the scores down for second generation immigrants even though second generation asians and other Europeans (except Italians) outperform native germans. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XmdrawO.png) Add a religion that is opposed to science, modern law and learning to the mix and improvement seems even more unlikely. I am not sure which term describes these outcomes the best but a difference in cognitive abilities seems to fit...
This is such a stupid topic. You're thinking everything equal - like the migration wave coming from France and the UK are in any way comparable to the migration wave coming from Turkey or Greece. Language, socio economic background, those are the things that determine the success of kids and not their "culture" whatever you put behind that word (the culture can have an effect but more on the relationship with the institutions and such, not that much on degrees and grades). Against what you seem to believe, in France and at the same socio economic background, children of migrants (from muslim countries such as Algeria) usually have a higher rate of success in school than children of native (for girls at least - and the difference is minimal, less than 1%).
Everything equal, nationality or culture (unless you talk about class culture) is not really a relevant category to understand results at school.
Putting this aside, cognitive ability and results in school are two entirely different things. Chose your words better next time.
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On September 07 2015 07:19 SkelA wrote:
Maybe I'm just a bit biased but in 1999 we were so compassionate to take in close to half a million refugees from Kosovo in a country with 2 million population and they were so grateful that they invaded us 2 years after they were saved from slaughter and we were close to bloody civil war if we didnt made peace to satisfy their ridiculous demands in the end.
You can say it was a fight for "freedom and human rights" but its always been a fight for territory. You will either give them what they want or they will take it the easy or the hard way.
In the end there are 2 type of Muslims. The radical Muslim wants to cut your head off. The moderate Muslim wants the radical Muslim to cut your head of. Its just the nature of Islam in its core its to be violent and expansionist towards everyone else and even towards other musliums from different sects.
Sounds at least somewhat similar to what went down in the Caucasus, especially Chechnya, in the 1990s. Thankfully the result was a bit more agreeable in the end, but the intentions have always been the same. Many cries about human rights relating to Chechnya, all of them by individuals who are so far removed from the conflict that they do not know why things are as they are in that region of the world. Good will towards those who are not worthy of it is unfortunately a very painful proposition.
On September 07 2015 07:18 Plansix wrote:
None of what you said was true and is sole based on bias against Muslims. The Crusades were incredibly violent and caused the countless deaths. Christianity has engaged and continued to engage in violent acts across the globe. They are just not reported on because they are against people in Africa and committed by and against Africans. Because none from the EU or US is involved, it isn't reported on. Or when it is, people just ignore it or make excuses. Like they are defending themselves against the horrible, violent Muslims that are fleeing their homes by the tents of thousands.
I will reiterate: the Crusades and the general repression of the Middle Ages don't even hold a candle to the extent of violence that has been invoked in the name of Islam. I am well aware that there has been and continues to be much religiously motivated Christian violence, but compared to what Islam has and continues to do, it is rather minimal. It's a fair enough reason to assume things can be different, and a tendency to be dismissive of the possibility that things really are different is ultimately a self-destructive one.
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On September 07 2015 07:37 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 04:45 Yuljan wrote:On September 07 2015 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:limited cognitive abilities I'm not an hypocrite and, as a french, I am fairly aware of the tensions and problems that arise with immigration. But the idea that migrants have limited cognitive abilities is just stupid. It's something that is said for every wave of immigrants - there are, for exemple, articles that state the same about european immigrants coming from germany to the US in the early XXth century. We could, at the very least, prevent ourselves from relaying those stupid ideas. Btw the German immigrants to the US werent the cream of the crop either since at that time mostly the lower socio economic classes emigrated, which are often linked to lower intelligence levels as well. Well cognitive abilities was probably a poor choice of word but lack of education seems a bit soft for 15-20% of refugees who can neither read nor write migrating to an industrial nations whos language they are not capable speaking. Also experience with other immigrants from a similar cultural/ethnic backgrounds does not help to mitigate my concerns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_achievement_among_different_groups_in_Germany#Ethnic_group_differences "Second generation Greek students were more likely to attend a Gymnasium (college preparatory school) than their ethnic German counterparts. The same was true for students belonging to the Chinese or the Jewish-Russian minority. No other ethnic group in Germany were as successful as the Vietnamese, 50% of whom attended a Gymnasium, and the Koreans, 70% of whom attended a Gymnasium. Educational attainment of Muslim students differed by ethnic group. While 50.2% of students from Iran attended either a Realschule or a Gymnasium, only 12.7% of Lebanese students attended one of those schools." The iranian scores show that its not secret discrimination based on appearance but more related to ability/background. Although while iranian scores are better compared to other muslims they arent that great either. http://www.spiegel.de/international/integration-and-education-immigrants-in-germany-falling-behind-a-416429.html"When compared to native German students, first-generation immigrants (born outside of Germany) perform well below the average of first-generation immigrants in the 17 countries considered in the report. And the gap becomes even larger among second-generation immigrants (children with at least one parent born outside the country).Germany is the country with the largest disparity between first and second generation immigrants, the report says. Second-generation students lag behind their native peers by 93 score points, which is equivalent to one and a half proficiency levels. This is particularly disconcerting, as these students have spent their entire school career in Germany." Guess who is dragging the scores down for second generation immigrants even though second generation asians and other Europeans (except Italians) outperform native germans. Add a religion that is opposed to science, modern law and learning to the mix and improvement seems even more unlikely. I am not sure which term describes these outcomes the best but a difference in cognitive abilities seems to fit... This is such a stupid topic. You're thinking everything equal - like the migration wave coming from France and the UK are in any way comparable to the migration wave coming from Turkey or Greece. Language, socio economic background, those are the things that determine the success of kids and not their "culture" whatever you put behind that word (the culture can have an effect but more on the relationship with the institutions and such, not that much on degrees and grades). Against what you seem to believe, in France and at the same socio economic background, children of migrants (from muslim countries such as Algeria) usually have a higher rate of success in school than children of native (for girls at least - and the difference is minimal, less than 1%). Everything equal, nationality or culture (unless you talk about class culture) is not really a relevant category to understand results at school. Putting this aside, cognitive ability and results in school are two entirely different things. Chose your words better next time.
Where did I ever pretend they are equal? And if cultural/ethnic background is not responsible for their problems what is?
As with your responses on economic topics you once again provide no sources. Seems to me they underperformed the general population quite significantly.
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/museucitiesfra_20080101_0.pdf&q=french education immigrants muslim&ved=0CDAQFjAGOBRqFQoTCN_4p4HC48cCFYfrFAod2t0LSw&usg=AFQjCNGSs3cDsY4XCpv8Z6n2qjqKo22uQg&sig2=cpqjnyIyteXSesirLKU0sA
I would gladly trade 500k muslim immigrants for 5m east asians.
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On September 07 2015 08:09 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 07:37 WhiteDog wrote:On September 07 2015 04:45 Yuljan wrote:On September 07 2015 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:limited cognitive abilities I'm not an hypocrite and, as a french, I am fairly aware of the tensions and problems that arise with immigration. But the idea that migrants have limited cognitive abilities is just stupid. It's something that is said for every wave of immigrants - there are, for exemple, articles that state the same about european immigrants coming from germany to the US in the early XXth century. We could, at the very least, prevent ourselves from relaying those stupid ideas. Btw the German immigrants to the US werent the cream of the crop either since at that time mostly the lower socio economic classes emigrated, which are often linked to lower intelligence levels as well. Well cognitive abilities was probably a poor choice of word but lack of education seems a bit soft for 15-20% of refugees who can neither read nor write migrating to an industrial nations whos language they are not capable speaking. Also experience with other immigrants from a similar cultural/ethnic backgrounds does not help to mitigate my concerns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_achievement_among_different_groups_in_Germany#Ethnic_group_differences "Second generation Greek students were more likely to attend a Gymnasium (college preparatory school) than their ethnic German counterparts. The same was true for students belonging to the Chinese or the Jewish-Russian minority. No other ethnic group in Germany were as successful as the Vietnamese, 50% of whom attended a Gymnasium, and the Koreans, 70% of whom attended a Gymnasium. Educational attainment of Muslim students differed by ethnic group. While 50.2% of students from Iran attended either a Realschule or a Gymnasium, only 12.7% of Lebanese students attended one of those schools." The iranian scores show that its not secret discrimination based on appearance but more related to ability/background. Although while iranian scores are better compared to other muslims they arent that great either. http://www.spiegel.de/international/integration-and-education-immigrants-in-germany-falling-behind-a-416429.html"When compared to native German students, first-generation immigrants (born outside of Germany) perform well below the average of first-generation immigrants in the 17 countries considered in the report. And the gap becomes even larger among second-generation immigrants (children with at least one parent born outside the country).Germany is the country with the largest disparity between first and second generation immigrants, the report says. Second-generation students lag behind their native peers by 93 score points, which is equivalent to one and a half proficiency levels. This is particularly disconcerting, as these students have spent their entire school career in Germany." Guess who is dragging the scores down for second generation immigrants even though second generation asians and other Europeans (except Italians) outperform native germans. Add a religion that is opposed to science, modern law and learning to the mix and improvement seems even more unlikely. I am not sure which term describes these outcomes the best but a difference in cognitive abilities seems to fit... This is such a stupid topic. You're thinking everything equal - like the migration wave coming from France and the UK are in any way comparable to the migration wave coming from Turkey or Greece. Language, socio economic background, those are the things that determine the success of kids and not their "culture" whatever you put behind that word (the culture can have an effect but more on the relationship with the institutions and such, not that much on degrees and grades). Against what you seem to believe, in France and at the same socio economic background, children of migrants (from muslim countries such as Algeria) usually have a higher rate of success in school than children of native (for girls at least - and the difference is minimal, less than 1%). Everything equal, nationality or culture (unless you talk about class culture) is not really a relevant category to understand results at school. Putting this aside, cognitive ability and results in school are two entirely different things. Chose your words better next time. Where did I ever pretend they are equal? And if cultural/ethnic background is not responsible for their problems what is? As with your responses on economic topics you once again provide no sources. Seems to me they underperformed the general population quite significantly. https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/museucitiesfra_20080101_0.pdf&q=french education immigrants muslim&ved=0CDAQFjAGOBRqFQoTCN_4p4HC48cCFYfrFAod2t0LSw&usg=AFQjCNGSs3cDsY4XCpv8Z6n2qjqKo22uQg&sig2=cpqjnyIyteXSesirLKU0sAI would gladly trade 500k muslim immigrants for 5m east asians.
I would rather trade 500k racists for 500k not racists.
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On September 07 2015 08:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 08:09 Yuljan wrote:On September 07 2015 07:37 WhiteDog wrote:On September 07 2015 04:45 Yuljan wrote:On September 07 2015 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:limited cognitive abilities I'm not an hypocrite and, as a french, I am fairly aware of the tensions and problems that arise with immigration. But the idea that migrants have limited cognitive abilities is just stupid. It's something that is said for every wave of immigrants - there are, for exemple, articles that state the same about european immigrants coming from germany to the US in the early XXth century. We could, at the very least, prevent ourselves from relaying those stupid ideas. Btw the German immigrants to the US werent the cream of the crop either since at that time mostly the lower socio economic classes emigrated, which are often linked to lower intelligence levels as well. Well cognitive abilities was probably a poor choice of word but lack of education seems a bit soft for 15-20% of refugees who can neither read nor write migrating to an industrial nations whos language they are not capable speaking. Also experience with other immigrants from a similar cultural/ethnic backgrounds does not help to mitigate my concerns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_achievement_among_different_groups_in_Germany#Ethnic_group_differences "Second generation Greek students were more likely to attend a Gymnasium (college preparatory school) than their ethnic German counterparts. The same was true for students belonging to the Chinese or the Jewish-Russian minority. No other ethnic group in Germany were as successful as the Vietnamese, 50% of whom attended a Gymnasium, and the Koreans, 70% of whom attended a Gymnasium. Educational attainment of Muslim students differed by ethnic group. While 50.2% of students from Iran attended either a Realschule or a Gymnasium, only 12.7% of Lebanese students attended one of those schools." The iranian scores show that its not secret discrimination based on appearance but more related to ability/background. Although while iranian scores are better compared to other muslims they arent that great either. http://www.spiegel.de/international/integration-and-education-immigrants-in-germany-falling-behind-a-416429.html"When compared to native German students, first-generation immigrants (born outside of Germany) perform well below the average of first-generation immigrants in the 17 countries considered in the report. And the gap becomes even larger among second-generation immigrants (children with at least one parent born outside the country).Germany is the country with the largest disparity between first and second generation immigrants, the report says. Second-generation students lag behind their native peers by 93 score points, which is equivalent to one and a half proficiency levels. This is particularly disconcerting, as these students have spent their entire school career in Germany." Guess who is dragging the scores down for second generation immigrants even though second generation asians and other Europeans (except Italians) outperform native germans. Add a religion that is opposed to science, modern law and learning to the mix and improvement seems even more unlikely. I am not sure which term describes these outcomes the best but a difference in cognitive abilities seems to fit... This is such a stupid topic. You're thinking everything equal - like the migration wave coming from France and the UK are in any way comparable to the migration wave coming from Turkey or Greece. Language, socio economic background, those are the things that determine the success of kids and not their "culture" whatever you put behind that word (the culture can have an effect but more on the relationship with the institutions and such, not that much on degrees and grades). Against what you seem to believe, in France and at the same socio economic background, children of migrants (from muslim countries such as Algeria) usually have a higher rate of success in school than children of native (for girls at least - and the difference is minimal, less than 1%). Everything equal, nationality or culture (unless you talk about class culture) is not really a relevant category to understand results at school. Putting this aside, cognitive ability and results in school are two entirely different things. Chose your words better next time. Where did I ever pretend they are equal? And if cultural/ethnic background is not responsible for their problems what is? As with your responses on economic topics you once again provide no sources. Seems to me they underperformed the general population quite significantly. https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/museucitiesfra_20080101_0.pdf&q=french education immigrants muslim&ved=0CDAQFjAGOBRqFQoTCN_4p4HC48cCFYfrFAod2t0LSw&usg=AFQjCNGSs3cDsY4XCpv8Z6n2qjqKo22uQg&sig2=cpqjnyIyteXSesirLKU0sAI would gladly trade 500k muslim immigrants for 5m east asians. I would rather trade 500k racists for 500k not racists.
Name calling is a surely a sign that your argument is based on facts and not blind ideology. I am happy to reconsider my stance in the light of new evidence but sadly no one is providing any.
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On September 07 2015 08:28 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 08:20 Plansix wrote:On September 07 2015 08:09 Yuljan wrote:On September 07 2015 07:37 WhiteDog wrote:On September 07 2015 04:45 Yuljan wrote:On September 07 2015 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:limited cognitive abilities I'm not an hypocrite and, as a french, I am fairly aware of the tensions and problems that arise with immigration. But the idea that migrants have limited cognitive abilities is just stupid. It's something that is said for every wave of immigrants - there are, for exemple, articles that state the same about european immigrants coming from germany to the US in the early XXth century. We could, at the very least, prevent ourselves from relaying those stupid ideas. Btw the German immigrants to the US werent the cream of the crop either since at that time mostly the lower socio economic classes emigrated, which are often linked to lower intelligence levels as well. Well cognitive abilities was probably a poor choice of word but lack of education seems a bit soft for 15-20% of refugees who can neither read nor write migrating to an industrial nations whos language they are not capable speaking. Also experience with other immigrants from a similar cultural/ethnic backgrounds does not help to mitigate my concerns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_achievement_among_different_groups_in_Germany#Ethnic_group_differences "Second generation Greek students were more likely to attend a Gymnasium (college preparatory school) than their ethnic German counterparts. The same was true for students belonging to the Chinese or the Jewish-Russian minority. No other ethnic group in Germany were as successful as the Vietnamese, 50% of whom attended a Gymnasium, and the Koreans, 70% of whom attended a Gymnasium. Educational attainment of Muslim students differed by ethnic group. While 50.2% of students from Iran attended either a Realschule or a Gymnasium, only 12.7% of Lebanese students attended one of those schools." The iranian scores show that its not secret discrimination based on appearance but more related to ability/background. Although while iranian scores are better compared to other muslims they arent that great either. http://www.spiegel.de/international/integration-and-education-immigrants-in-germany-falling-behind-a-416429.html"When compared to native German students, first-generation immigrants (born outside of Germany) perform well below the average of first-generation immigrants in the 17 countries considered in the report. And the gap becomes even larger among second-generation immigrants (children with at least one parent born outside the country).Germany is the country with the largest disparity between first and second generation immigrants, the report says. Second-generation students lag behind their native peers by 93 score points, which is equivalent to one and a half proficiency levels. This is particularly disconcerting, as these students have spent their entire school career in Germany." Guess who is dragging the scores down for second generation immigrants even though second generation asians and other Europeans (except Italians) outperform native germans. Add a religion that is opposed to science, modern law and learning to the mix and improvement seems even more unlikely. I am not sure which term describes these outcomes the best but a difference in cognitive abilities seems to fit... This is such a stupid topic. You're thinking everything equal - like the migration wave coming from France and the UK are in any way comparable to the migration wave coming from Turkey or Greece. Language, socio economic background, those are the things that determine the success of kids and not their "culture" whatever you put behind that word (the culture can have an effect but more on the relationship with the institutions and such, not that much on degrees and grades). Against what you seem to believe, in France and at the same socio economic background, children of migrants (from muslim countries such as Algeria) usually have a higher rate of success in school than children of native (for girls at least - and the difference is minimal, less than 1%). Everything equal, nationality or culture (unless you talk about class culture) is not really a relevant category to understand results at school. Putting this aside, cognitive ability and results in school are two entirely different things. Chose your words better next time. Where did I ever pretend they are equal? And if cultural/ethnic background is not responsible for their problems what is? As with your responses on economic topics you once again provide no sources. Seems to me they underperformed the general population quite significantly. https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/sites/default/files/museucitiesfra_20080101_0.pdf&q=french education immigrants muslim&ved=0CDAQFjAGOBRqFQoTCN_4p4HC48cCFYfrFAod2t0LSw&usg=AFQjCNGSs3cDsY4XCpv8Z6n2qjqKo22uQg&sig2=cpqjnyIyteXSesirLKU0sAI would gladly trade 500k muslim immigrants for 5m east asians. I would rather trade 500k racists for 500k not racists. Name calling is a surely a sign that your argument is based on facts and not blind ideology. I am happy to reconsider my stance in the light of new evidence but sadly no one is providing any.
I mean the study you cited doesn't even cite race as a reason for the achievement gap. It cited the difficulties of migration and the fear of not staying in France as a cause.
And race itself is a social construct. Science has proven that all humans have minimal genetic differences that only factor in when we push ourselves to the peek of performance. So it's a none factor as science has overwhelming said so.
Finally, Yale recently found that those who claim and believe the are "objective" on the subject of racism are normally the most biased.
http://www.socialjudgments.com/docs/Uhlmann and Cohen 2005.pdf
So, in short, knock off your racist bullshit. You're not objective, you're just justifying your bias.
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On September 07 2015 08:20 Plansix wrote:
I would rather trade 500k racists for 500k not racists.
Since when religion became race ? I dont consider myself racist at all but i hate almost all religions and Islam the most.
This makes me racist , maybe something else or just atheist ?
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On September 07 2015 08:46 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 08:20 Plansix wrote:
I would rather trade 500k racists for 500k not racists. Since when religion became race ? I dont consider myself racist at all but i hate almost all religions and Islam the most. This makes me racist , maybe something else or just atheist ?
You can hate what you want, just don't claim to have objective about it. And the poster above was saying that he would prefer Asian immigrations over Muslim immigrants. This was after saying Mulsims have low cognitive abilities. At some point you just call a spade a spade.
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The reason far-right party are gaining traction so much is because every fucking liberal are using the "racist" card when you talk about immigration, color, race or whatever.
Guess what, your value is losing ground very fucking fast, at least in EU. Yep, people disliked being called racist every time they were against migration, and were shutting it up. But after a while, they start not giving a fuck about being called racist and will vote people that also don't give a fuck about being racists, but elected people really are racists.
So yeah, because the fucking ideology of polical correctness, major parties are totally ignoring an issue when there is one, and oops... you find yourself with a far-right at the head of the state.
The netherlands has already a far-right PM, Hungary too. Poland might elect one too.
The biggest party in Belgium is anti immigration.
In Italy, you see people like Pepe Grillo leading the biggest party.
France has of course the FN, and I bet everything that Marine Le Pen will reach the 2nd round and be the leading candidate in the 1st round.
So yeah, fuck them all racists that represent at least 40% of Europe ! Fuck you for trying to express your despair by voting to the only people that are listening to you, even if they are fucking populist shit.
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I'm sure the reason why there are so many right wing candidates doing well is mean liberals hurting peoples feelings. That must be it.
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On September 07 2015 11:34 Plansix wrote:
I'm sure the reason why there are so many right wing candidates doing well is mean liberals hurting peoples feelings. That must be it.
I'm pretty sure its that liberals insult the intelligence of people who disagree with them and ascribe negative motives to thier legitimate concerns.
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On September 07 2015 11:42 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:34 Plansix wrote:
I'm sure the reason why there are so many right wing candidates doing well is mean liberals hurting peoples feelings. That must be it. I'm pretty sure its that liberals insult the intelligence of people who disagree with them and ascribe negative motives to thier legitimate concerns.
meaning you'd agree with "Mulsims have limited cognitive abilities" ?
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On September 07 2015 11:42 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:34 Plansix wrote:
I'm sure the reason why there are so many right wing candidates doing well is mean liberals hurting peoples feelings. That must be it. I'm pretty sure its that liberals insult the intelligence of people who disagree with them and ascribe negative motives to thier legitimate concerns.
I'm sure this is the root cause of the rise of right wing candidates, hurt feeling and mean liberals. Those big meanies, bringing back racism with by being rude to peoplle who just have opinions on which races makes for should move to his country.
On September 07 2015 11:49 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:42 cLutZ wrote:On September 07 2015 11:34 Plansix wrote:
I'm sure the reason why there are so many right wing candidates doing well is mean liberals hurting peoples feelings. That must be it. I'm pretty sure its that liberals insult the intelligence of people who disagree with them and ascribe negative motives to thier legitimate concerns. meaning you'd agree with "Mulsims have limited cognitive abilities" ?
The key is someone was called racist and that is mean and bullying. Even if the person basically said they want one race coming to their country over another race. Than its just an opinion about which race is better to have near your house. And opinions are fine.
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On September 07 2015 11:49 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:42 cLutZ wrote:On September 07 2015 11:34 Plansix wrote:
I'm sure the reason why there are so many right wing candidates doing well is mean liberals hurting peoples feelings. That must be it. I'm pretty sure its that liberals insult the intelligence of people who disagree with them and ascribe negative motives to thier legitimate concerns. meaning you'd agree with "Mulsims have limited cognitive abilities" ?
No. Good one though.
On September 07 2015 11:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:42 cLutZ wrote:On September 07 2015 11:34 Plansix wrote:
I'm sure the reason why there are so many right wing candidates doing well is mean liberals hurting peoples feelings. That must be it. I'm pretty sure its that liberals insult the intelligence of people who disagree with them and ascribe negative motives to thier legitimate concerns. I'm sure this is the root cause of the rise of right wing candidates, hurt feeling and mean liberals. Those big meanies, bringing back racism with by being rude to peoplle who just have opinions on which races makes for should move to his country.
No, more like bringing back nationalism by creating social policies that pits each citizen against his neighbor for state resources, while also doing little to preserve the pool of resources.
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On September 07 2015 11:55 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 11:49 Toadesstern wrote:On September 07 2015 11:42 cLutZ wrote:On September 07 2015 11:34 Plansix wrote:
I'm sure the reason why there are so many right wing candidates doing well is mean liberals hurting peoples feelings. That must be it. I'm pretty sure its that liberals insult the intelligence of people who disagree with them and ascribe negative motives to thier legitimate concerns. meaning you'd agree with "Mulsims have limited cognitive abilities" ? No. Good one though.
well, that's the reason he got called stupid in the first place.
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EPT
