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On September 06 2015 08:15 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2015 07:41 xM(Z wrote:
comparisons don't work here. you point is what ... that syrians are bosnians?.
you can't make it work, it's all subjective; not to mention one is pre- and the other is post- (bosnians did it, syrians will do it) My point is that it's possible to integrate immigration waves with a low average education levels in developed countries. Why wouldn't comparisons work here? What's subjective about this?
in general, you just assume to much then believe the best outcome will happen. you gloss over specifics and/or differences as if they don't matter because after all, we're all people, flower-power and what not.
in this case, if i were to say that integration happened because bosnians wanted it and not because americans allowed it, what then?. you whole point would then rest on the belief that syrians want integration and you have no idea if that's true, even partially; still, you don't seem to care.
your whole idea is subjective because you don't take into account the real life. you know, where shit people live in and when/if they're a majority you can't to jack.
ps: and to confirm Evotroid view on brown vs black: brown is bad because gypsies(here, people were laughing when gypsies fled en masse and headed towards France/UK/Spain&; we were pointing fingers saying: yea West, integrate that!; but you know what?, they didn't. they board them on planes and shipped them back(at least some of them)), but black is exotic enough to be seen as interesting so it's somewhat accepted.
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Dismiss has wisely stopped arguing. I can not blame him.
Anyway,all the refuges:800k in Germany alone this year. And the flow will only increase.
There is no way that this will end well. Will see a big shift in politics towards extreme right wing within 4 years.
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Germany has 3.7M people of middle eastern background, 800k of Sub-Saharan African background. Where is the backlash? The far right party got 1.5% of the vote in 2013.
xM(Z I'm not deterministic about these things. I'm only pointing out that good outcomes are possible and within our reach. Independently of the outcome, I believe it is our moral duty to help the people in need.
I don't see why Syrians wouldn't want integration. None of the Middle Eastern communities in the West tend to have isolationist tendencies. Quite unlike the Roma. There are 10M people of Arab ancestry in Brazil. 5M in Europe. 1.6M in the US.
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A main reason why a lot of the refugees (especially from syria) try to reach Germany as opposed to other EU states on the way is not necessarily economical. There is a huge difference in your chance of being granted refugee status depending on which country you end up in throughout the EU. This is obviously quite silly. Sadly i can't find the statistics for this, but i remember there being gigantic differences between countries. Syrians had a ~70% acceptance in Hungary, and 100% in Germany for example. Some other group had ~12% in France and 80% or so in the UK, so they would all try to cross over from France to the UK, and obviously France wouldn't stop them because they were glad to be rid of them.
What this crisis demonstrates is that the EU needs to have a common refugee policy. This would take a large burden off of the shoulders of the countries that border crisis regions, and would also make the whole system a lot less comically silly. Just redistribute all of the refugees found in EU countries fairly throughout them. Have a common policy as to which refugees are accepted and which are not. Currently everyone is just happy to try to make the refugees someone elses problem as best as they can.
What i can not understand is why there seems to be no political will to make this happen. This common situation is obviously a clusterfuck. Depending on which country you come from, your acceptance rate varies widely depending on where you apply for asylum in the EU, so obviously smart refugees will try to get to the countries with the highest acceptance rate.
EU countries should really stop their bickering and infighting, and try to become more of a union that works together for a common good as opposed to this alliance of convenience where everyone tries to pull as much out of the union for themselves as they can.
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On September 06 2015 18:34 Simberto wrote:
A main reason why a lot of the refugees (especially from syria) try to reach Germany as opposed to other EU states on the way is not necessarily economical. There is a huge difference in your chance of being granted refugee status depending on which country you end up in throughout the EU. This is obviously quite silly. Sadly i can't find the statistics for this, but i remember there being gigantic differences between countries. Syrians had a ~70% acceptance in Hungary, and 100% in Germany for example. Some other group had ~12% in France and 80% or so in the UK, so they would all try to cross over from France to the UK, and obviously France wouldn't stop them because they were glad to be rid of them.
What this crisis demonstrates is that the EU needs to have a common refugee policy. This would take a large burden off of the shoulders of the countries that border crisis regions, and would also make the whole system a lot less comically silly. Just redistribute all of the refugees found in EU countries fairly throughout them. Have a common policy as to which refugees are accepted and which are not. Currently everyone is just happy to try to make the refugees someone elses problem as best as they can.
What i can not understand is why there seems to be no political will to make this happen. This common situation is obviously a clusterfuck. Depending on which country you come from, your acceptance rate varies widely depending on where you apply for asylum in the EU, so obviously smart refugees will try to get to the countries with the highest acceptance rate.
EU countries should really stop their bickering and infighting, and try to become more of a union that works together for a common good as opposed to this alliance of convenience where everyone tries to pull as much out of the union for themselves as they can.
Isn't it always the same?
Europe durdling around a problem, presenting no reasonable resolution and hoping it will all go away?
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Granting asylum to those in need (talking about those who have to fear for their life due to war, not economic migrants; two separate topics that often get mixed up, even in this very thread) should be a moral duty for any country holding humanitarian values and the Geneva conventions in high regard.
The EU needs to act fast on the topic of distributing refugees among its member states, it can't be that Greece & Italy have to stem the brunt of arrivals and only a few countries like Sweden, Austria, Germany help taking in refugees, while the rest stand by and act like it's not their business. If it continues like this, Schengen won't last forever, and if we give up Schengen, it will spell doom for the EU imo.
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The argument of spreading the migrants silly. Look at Hungary trying to follow Dublin 2, and processing the refugees ? It's impossible because they fucking want to be in Germany.
Now if you send say 10k migrants in Romania ? What will they do ? They will leave the fuck out as fast as they can.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/reporters-notebook/migrants/hungary-treatment-refugees
So what will happen ? We will have to close the border to prevent the leak ? Or we do as they want and just dump them in Germany and Sweden, to see how good that will do.
BTW, A refugee lose its statut of refugee once he cross the first safe country he reached. So all the illegal are economical immigrants, not refugee. That's why we should process they guys waiting in camps in Turkey, Jordan instead of all the 20 something male chanting "germany germany" in Hungarian trains. These guys are less in danger than kids/women in Lebanon.
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Yes yes, everyone knows of that silly rule. There is a reason it is not applied. Hiding behind bureaucracy does not solve problems.
And if the immigrants get distributed in an orderly way, and treated reasonably in all countries, they will stay in the country they are designated to. Because that is where they get a roof over their heads, and food.
The reason they want to get to Germany is that they are informed. Germany accepts 100% of refugees from Syria. Thus you obviously want to get to Germany, as opposed to some other country where you have a 30% chance of being sent back to hell.
And i agree that something needs to be done about the refugee camps in turkey. Sadly, that is even harder to do, since Turkey is not a member of the EU, and we can't even convince the EU countries to work together regarding refugees in the EU. Convincing them to take in even more refugees from Turkey is pretty much impossible due to the rampant nationalism. This is a very sad state of affairs.
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"Refugees" throwing away food and water in Hungary... just beat the shit out of these people and send them back.
User was warned for this post
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You dont say? I have been arguing with my parents about Japan being in an awesome position for 5 years but they refuse to listen. The fact is that almost all jobs of those who retire disepear to robots and then some. This frees up both resources and people to work in healthcare to provide for the ageing population while maintaining productivity. The decrease in demand from less people coupled with more efficent production drives down prices much faster than it drives down wages if they decrease at all so even if the internal economy shrinks standard of living rises. At the same time unemployment is keept low and the decrease in wage due to robotics makes exports competetive.
Compare that to a European country like Sweden where jobs are lost when people retire but we try to compensate with more people to take care for the elderly.
It leads to higher living costs because of primarily housing being scarce (compare to Denmark) but also more expensive food and other goods.
The influx of people does lead to a bigger economy but also a rising unemployment. The problem is that the wages are so high that people cant compete with the robots and new jobs arent created even nearly as fast as old jobs disappear. So while some of the new people get work the effect on society is canceled out because of rising welfare costs and more expensive living costs.
This is not immigrations fault, its simply what happens when fewer people can do more and the rest is not needed for production anymore.
The solution is of course to slash wages and benefits untill your population can compete but that will create an incredibly segregared society where the bottom portion is forced to compete with robots for pennies or take low qualified service jobs at rates that the people with "real" jobs find reasonable.
In short I think were setting up our immigrants for permanent segregation as a new lower class simply because they are the last ones in and the age of job growth is over.
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Well nvm. This whole discussion is pointless.
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On September 06 2015 16:46 Rassy wrote:
Anyway,all the refuges:800k in Germany alone this year. And the flow will only increase.
There is no way that this will end well. Will see a big shift in politics towards extreme right wing within 4 years.
I don't blame people for feeling that their nation is being encroached upon when mass immigration occurs. And if the major parties are none too keen to address the problem, the extreme parties start to gain traction.
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On September 07 2015 01:01 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2015 16:46 Rassy wrote:
Anyway,all the refuges:800k in Germany alone this year. And the flow will only increase.
There is no way that this will end well. Will see a big shift in politics towards extreme right wing within 4 years. I don't blame people for feeling that their nation is being encroached upon when mass immigration occurs. And if the major parties are none too keen to address the problem, the extreme parties start to gain traction.
It's also going to cost an estimated 10 billion Euros in 2015 alone. Which is the sixth largest expense in the German budget. If it were to stay at last years level of 2 billion you could literally double the amount of money being spent on education. This is a very real, huge expense, as opposed to most people here saying that it'd be a negligible cost.
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These are only the direct costs as well. Given the experience with other muslim and arab immigrants, the increase in crime rate, social tension and limited cognitive abilities of large portion of the immigrants will be even more expensive
User was warned for this post
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limited cognitive abilities
I'm not an hypocrite and, as a french, I am fairly aware of the tensions and problems that arise with immigration. But the idea that migrants have limited cognitive abilities is just stupid. It's something that is said for every wave of immigrants - there are, for exemple, articles that state the same about european immigrants coming from germany to the US in the early XXth century.
We could, at the very least, prevent ourselves from relaying those stupid ideas.
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On September 07 2015 01:16 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 01:01 LegalLord wrote:On September 06 2015 16:46 Rassy wrote:
Anyway,all the refuges:800k in Germany alone this year. And the flow will only increase.
There is no way that this will end well. Will see a big shift in politics towards extreme right wing within 4 years. I don't blame people for feeling that their nation is being encroached upon when mass immigration occurs. And if the major parties are none too keen to address the problem, the extreme parties start to gain traction. It's also going to cost an estimated 10 billion Euros in 2015 alone. Which is the sixth largest expense in the German budget. If it were to stay at last years level of 2 billion you could literally double the amount of money being spent on education. This is a very real, huge expense, as opposed to most people here saying that it'd be a negligible cost.
On September 07 2015 01:45 Yuljan wrote:
These are only the direct costs as well. Given the experience with other muslim and arab immigrants, the increase in crime rate, social tension and limited cognitive abilities of large portion of the immigrants will be even more expensive
Yes, let's just completely ignore the studies that show that in most countries immigration overall has a net positive impact on government finances (and that where it doesn't, it is due to systems which prevent immigrants from engaging in the economic activity of the country at various stages).
On September 07 2015 01:45 Yuljan wrote:
These are only the direct costs as well. Given the experience with other muslim and arab immigrants, the increase in crime rate, social tension and limited cognitive abilities of large portion of the immigrants will be even more expensive
It seems like the racists are really out in full swing in this thread these days.
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It depends whether you mean limited cognitive abilities (innate), which would be incorrect. Or limited cognitive abilities (less education, both in amount of time spent in education, and in quality of the education, thus using the term to refer to educational/human capital) in which case it might have some merit, thought it wouldn't be the best term to use for such. Just being devil's advocate.
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On September 07 2015 01:58 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 01:16 dismiss wrote:On September 07 2015 01:01 LegalLord wrote:On September 06 2015 16:46 Rassy wrote:
Anyway,all the refuges:800k in Germany alone this year. And the flow will only increase.
There is no way that this will end well. Will see a big shift in politics towards extreme right wing within 4 years. I don't blame people for feeling that their nation is being encroached upon when mass immigration occurs. And if the major parties are none too keen to address the problem, the extreme parties start to gain traction. It's also going to cost an estimated 10 billion Euros in 2015 alone. Which is the sixth largest expense in the German budget. If it were to stay at last years level of 2 billion you could literally double the amount of money being spent on education. This is a very real, huge expense, as opposed to most people here saying that it'd be a negligible cost. Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 01:45 Yuljan wrote:
These are only the direct costs as well. Given the experience with other muslim and arab immigrants, the increase in crime rate, social tension and limited cognitive abilities of large portion of the immigrants will be even more expensive Yes, let's just completely ignore the studies that show that in most countries immigration overall has a net positive impact on government finances (and that where it doesn't, it is due to systems which prevent immigrants from engaging in the economic activity of the country at various stages). Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 01:45 Yuljan wrote:
These are only the direct costs as well. Given the experience with other muslim and arab immigrants, the increase in crime rate, social tension and limited cognitive abilities of large portion of the immigrants will be even more expensive It seems like the racists are really out in full swing in this thread these days.
Yep, being against a mass exodus without preparation is being a racist fuck. Not everyone is calling migrants sub humans, but are still against the massive wave of uncontrolled people.
BTW, apparenly only 25% of the migrants are women or children
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html
This is another problem because out of the potential 800K migrants in Germany alone, a huge part will bring in their family once refugee status given. So probably around 1.2M in 2015 alone.
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On September 07 2015 02:15 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2015 01:58 kwizach wrote:On September 07 2015 01:16 dismiss wrote:On September 07 2015 01:01 LegalLord wrote:On September 06 2015 16:46 Rassy wrote:
Anyway,all the refuges:800k in Germany alone this year. And the flow will only increase.
There is no way that this will end well. Will see a big shift in politics towards extreme right wing within 4 years. I don't blame people for feeling that their nation is being encroached upon when mass immigration occurs. And if the major parties are none too keen to address the problem, the extreme parties start to gain traction. It's also going to cost an estimated 10 billion Euros in 2015 alone. Which is the sixth largest expense in the German budget. If it were to stay at last years level of 2 billion you could literally double the amount of money being spent on education. This is a very real, huge expense, as opposed to most people here saying that it'd be a negligible cost. On September 07 2015 01:45 Yuljan wrote:
These are only the direct costs as well. Given the experience with other muslim and arab immigrants, the increase in crime rate, social tension and limited cognitive abilities of large portion of the immigrants will be even more expensive Yes, let's just completely ignore the studies that show that in most countries immigration overall has a net positive impact on government finances (and that where it doesn't, it is due to systems which prevent immigrants from engaging in the economic activity of the country at various stages). On September 07 2015 01:45 Yuljan wrote:
These are only the direct costs as well. Given the experience with other muslim and arab immigrants, the increase in crime rate, social tension and limited cognitive abilities of large portion of the immigrants will be even more expensive It seems like the racists are really out in full swing in this thread these days. Yep, being against a mass exodus without preparation is being a racist fuck. Not everyone is calling migrants sub humans, but are still against the massive wave of uncontrolled people.
Saying a "large portion of the immigrants" have "limited cognitive abilities" is being racist.
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EPT
