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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:30 Alcathous wrote: Why you think banks want to load their customers up with debt? Because it is profitable to do so. Unless the bank miscalculate the credit risk. At which point your profit may quickly become a loss. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22094 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:32 Alcathous wrote: Even this is false. The Greek government has put the best offer they were offered to their voters in a referendum. The voters said 'no'. Now Greece wants to go back to the negotiating table. Dijsselbloem has always said the door is still open (if Greece votes 'yes'), so now we see if indeed the eurozone still wants to talk, or if they are untrustworthy and reckless. The Eurozone has made it perfectly clear repeatedly that this is as good as the deal will get. The best deal we were willing to offer got rejected. There is nothing to negotiate. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:32 RvB wrote: No the Greek people have to vote yes because a no vote would mean they reject the offer the creditors gave. What basis is there to negotiate if the Greek people just rejected it? (Tbh though I think even if there is a no vote negotiations will continue). If they voted 'yes' they would have accepted a deal already. Nothing more to negotiate when a deal is already made. Dijsselbloem just freaked out after the referendum proposal. Clearly he didn't like that. So we went into the media, took the offer off the table to sabotage the referendum. Futhermore, they forced the Greek banks to close when there isn't a problem with the solvency of the banks. If I call for a bankrun, and I fall under Dutch law, I can go to jail. Juncker and Dijsselbloem basically wanted to incite a bankrun trying to blackmail the Greeks into voting Syriza out of office. They went on tv and said similar blackmailish stuff. They aren't even supposed to pick a side. The Juncker speech was one of the most extreme things I have seen in politics in Europe all my life. | ||
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:32 Alcathous wrote: Even this is false. The Greek government has put the best offer they were offered to their voters in a referendum. The voters said 'no'. Now Greece wants to go back to the negotiating table. Dijsselbloem has always said the door is still open (if Greece votes 'yes'), so now we see if indeed the eurozone still wants to talk, or if they are untrustworthy and reckless. How is the eurozone untrustworthy and reckless if they go by what they said? | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:36 rezoacken wrote: Unless the bank miscalculate the credit risk. At which point your profit may quickly become a loss. But the eurogroup refuse to restructure the debt. Never saw Merkel, Juncker or Dijsselbloem go on tv and announce they miscalculated, took too much risk and they(or rather their voters) were going to pay for it. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:39 dae wrote: How is the eurozone untrustworthy and reckless if they go by what they said? Because I lose all my money just to destroy Greece and the United States of Europe. I rather not see Greece destroyed, I rather like the idea of someday nation-states inside Europe disappearing, and I rather not lose my money and learn it was wasted. So the eurogroup better reopen the Greek banks tomorrow, sit at the table with Syriza and make a deal where Greece pays off part of their debts while the economy is allowed to recover. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22094 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:37 Alcathous wrote: If they voted 'yes' they would have accepted a deal already. Nothing more to negotiate when a deal is already made. Dijsselbloem just freaked out after the referendum proposal. Clearly he didn't like that. So we went into the media, took the offer off the table to sabotage the referendum. Futhermore, they forced the Greek banks to close when there isn't a problem with the solvency of the banks. If I call for a bankrun, and I fall under Dutch law, I can go to jail. Juncker and Dijsselbloem basically wanted to incite a bankrun trying to blackmail the Greeks into voting Syriza out of office. They went on tv and said similar blackmailish stuff. They aren't even supposed to pick a side. The Juncker speech was one of the most extreme things I have seen in politics in Europe all my life. The referendum was about a deal for the June 30th package. How can that deal be on the table when the 30th has passed? | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:41 Gorsameth wrote: The referendum was about a deal for the June 30th package. How can that deal be on the table when the 30th has passed? What? Or You just call it the July 6th package and rename it each time a day passes. (confused) | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22094 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:39 Alcathous wrote: But the eurogroup refuse to restructure the debt. Indeed. You dont restructure the debt of a country unwilling to fix its financial problems. If Greece had continues the reforms are was agreed upon debt restructuring would have come on the table. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
In 2015, 240 Billion Euro seems to be the minimum. (Given Target2 requirements, I've seen the number closer to 330 Billion) The problem is only going to get worse. The costs are sunk. The resentment will only continue to rise since Greece was originally bailed out out to save the Banks. (Not really for Greece's sake) The "play" has been, since 2010, finding a way to let Greece exit the Monetary Union under their own currency. The Debt-fueled Asset Bubble made everything look great for years, but the misallocation of resources is going to take a generation to unwind. (This is Spain's biggest problem, realistically, as well) Still, the total possible loss is maybe 6 months of the QE that the ECB is undertaking. And I'm sure there's a way so the write-off doesn't end up being 100%, but that would require having thought of there being more than a "Plan A" for the last several years. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22094 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:43 Alcathous wrote: What? Or You just call it the July 6th package and rename it each time a day passes. (confused) It had already been moved up from February. The line as to be drawn somewhere and Greece knew the line was the 30th for months. They willingly chose to hold the referendum after the deadline because their bluff was being called. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:45 Alcathous wrote: Eurogroup readily admit they never offered to restructure debt. Donno if you are talking about dreamworld or some other place. In fairytale-land, everything can happen. Both the Eurogroup and Creditors have always said that debt restructuring might be possible if Greece implements the necessary reforms. The problem of the Eurozone is that things have to happen in this order because giving a haircut first and then seeing no progress is something that you can't sell to the electorate of the countries that shoulder the risk. If the European Union were a federal state we could do both at the same time, as the European institutions always have to hope that the nations hold up their end of the bargain. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2714 Posts
If Greece goes the dual currency route why not keep them in EU even after they default? It helps their trade immensly and it lets us send humanitarian aid and support a democratic goverment enough so the country doesnt collapse completly. And once "reforms" are done part of the debt can be cut in new negotiations and they can phase out the alternative currency again. Its a much better option than throwing them to the wolves. | ||
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
Austerity is a political ideology with no basis in reality. You can't find any economist in support of it. If they try to throw Greece out of the euro, for which there is no legal basis, Greece should just print their own Euro bills. I hear they have very nice high tech money printing facility in Athens. If we really declare economical war on our former partner, Greece has the moral right to just print the money they need. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22094 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:50 Alcathous wrote: You can't organize a referendum in 12 hours. Anyway, you are arguing by ignoring each point thrown up, backtracking, and finding something new. This was about the eurogroup saying that the only way for negotiations to continue was for Greece to vote 'yes'. An obvious lie. Sigh again. The Eurogroup made it clear this was the best offer they were willing to do. It got declined. Nothing to negotiate until Greece says it is willing to accept the deal. And I know you cant hold a referendum in 12 hours. Maybe that is why they should have decided upon one sooner? Anyway its obvious we wont convince each other and your hate for your government and Germany is shining through a little bright. I'm done discussing. My stance have been made clear enough. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22094 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:52 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Right now 240bn is gone yeah. But Greece not being able to get any loans should push reforms by itself. If you live hand to mouth you have a damn strong incentive of getting working tax collection and I think we can assume that the public sector will be cut down to size as will pensions. If Greece goes the dual currency route why not keep them in EU even after they default? It helps their trade immensly and it lets us send humanitarian aid and support a democratic goverment enough so the country doesnt collapse completly. And once "reforms" are done part of the debt can be cut in new negotiations and they can phase out the alternative currency again. Its a much better option than throwing them to the wolves. I expect Greece to remain in the EU. but not the Eurozone. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
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Alcathous
Netherlands219 Posts
On July 06 2015 04:54 Gorsameth wrote: Sigh again. The Eurogroup made it clear this was the best offer they were willing to do. It got declined. Nothing to negotiate until Greece says it is willing to accept the deal. And I know you cant hold a referendum in 12 hours. Maybe that is why they should have decided upon one sooner? Anyway its obvious we wont convince each other and your hate for your government and Germany is shining through a little bright. I'm done discussing. My stance have been made clear enough. If the eurozone made their best offer and the Greeks rejected it, and if there really won't be a 'new best offer', then we lost all our money. Dijsselbloem and Juncker and Merkel wasted all our money just to stop anti-austerity and trying to rid the eurozone of a left wing government. If that is really true, they should be put in jail by tomorrow because they betrayed their own citizens on a massive scale to push through their own already dead political ideals (ie austerity). | ||
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