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On July 06 2015 04:01 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:58 Toadesstern wrote:On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. what if Germany/the rest of Europe makes a referendum and the people don't want to make a deal that gives in more? You realize no deal means Greece pays nothing? Pretty sure no one here would vote to 100% cancel all Greek debt. I know I wouldn't. If we want any of our money back, we better figure out a way with the Greeks how this is done. If Junker and Dijsselbloem are personally betrayed, have no trust left, they better gtfo for the sake of the Dutch and German taxpayer's money. Unless of course Junker and Dijsselbloem go on tv and take back their words/personal attacks on the Greek politicians. Politicians who got two strong mandates within 5 months. Dijsselbloem's party must not have gotten a single clear mandate since 1998. And they as a political party try to sit exactly in the middle of the balance of power where Syriza is 'radical left'.
I'm pretty sure everyone here is going by 100% of the 240bn is lost already and it's only about what we're going to lose in the next couple years oO
So yeah, wouldn't be surprised if people are in favor of that in Germany
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On July 06 2015 04:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:01 Alcathous wrote:On July 06 2015 03:58 Toadesstern wrote:On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. what if Germany/the rest of Europe makes a referendum and the people don't want to make a deal that gives in more? You realize no deal means Greece pays nothing? Pretty sure no one here would vote to 100% cancel all Greek debt. I know I wouldn't. If we want any of our money back, we better figure out a way with the Greeks how this is done. If Junker and Dijsselbloem are personally betrayed, have no trust left, they better gtfo for the sake of the Dutch and German taxpayer's money. Unless of course Junker and Dijsselbloem go on tv and take back their words/personal attacks on the Greek politicians who got two strong mandates within 5 months. Dijsselbloem's party must not have gotten a single clear mandate since 1998. And they as a political party try to sit exactly in the middle of the balance of power where Syriza is 'radical left'. Why should the EU give a damn about the mandate of some dude in Greece? Greece broke a deal and tried to re-negotiate. The EU has exactly 0 commitments to reaching a new deal.
Cause having Germany, that is how everyone would perceive it, ignoring a nations own referendum which both sides accepted would happen will go over great when Merkel announces she's ignoring it. As if there isn't already a large Anti-German feeling in Europe.
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On July 06 2015 04:08 RvB wrote:
Of course they have issues with Tsipras and Varoufakis when you're being accused of terrorism and blackmail while you're negotiating. Stepping down because of that makes no sense though. Everyone has to work with people they don't like sometime. That doesn't mean you can't be a professional about it and get the job done.
They basically said the Greek people had to vote 'yes' because they couldn't personally negotiate with Tsipras and Varoufakis any longer.
The blackmail is obvious. As a Dutch person that is being robbed, I agree. We did try to blackmail Greece.
The 'terrorism' thing gets blown out of proportions, of course. When I go to youtube and watch speeches by Tsipras and Varoufakis, I agree with what they say.
When I watch NOS news, go to Telegraaf, and read what they say about Tsipras and Varoufakis, these two are indeed two crazy idiots ruining Europe.
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On July 06 2015 04:10 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone here is going by 100% of the 240bn is lost already and it's only about what we're going to lose in the next couple years oO
So yeah, wouldn't be surprised if people are in favor of that in Germany
Not sure what you are saying. The Greek debt is 240 bn. If Greece defaults, we lose that. Now we Dutch and German people, we can take that hit. But don't forget there's also taxpayers in countries that are poorer than Greece is right now. They also lose their money.
I think it would be smart to maximize the money we can get out of Greece; ie not let Greece default but negotiate the best deal we can get Syriza to accept.
We can lose more money if we stack another 50 bn new debt on the debth Greece already has, which is what Dijsselbloem&Juncker wanted to do (in return for new austerity) but the Greeks today rejected.
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On July 06 2015 04:11 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 06 2015 04:01 Alcathous wrote:On July 06 2015 03:58 Toadesstern wrote:On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. what if Germany/the rest of Europe makes a referendum and the people don't want to make a deal that gives in more? You realize no deal means Greece pays nothing? Pretty sure no one here would vote to 100% cancel all Greek debt. I know I wouldn't. If we want any of our money back, we better figure out a way with the Greeks how this is done. If Junker and Dijsselbloem are personally betrayed, have no trust left, they better gtfo for the sake of the Dutch and German taxpayer's money. Unless of course Junker and Dijsselbloem go on tv and take back their words/personal attacks on the Greek politicians who got two strong mandates within 5 months. Dijsselbloem's party must not have gotten a single clear mandate since 1998. And they as a political party try to sit exactly in the middle of the balance of power where Syriza is 'radical left'. Why should the EU give a damn about the mandate of some dude in Greece? Greece broke a deal and tried to re-negotiate. The EU has exactly 0 commitments to reaching a new deal. Cause having Germany, that is how everyone would perceive it, ignoring a nations own referendum which both sides accepted would happen will go over great when Merkel announces she's ignoring it. As if there isn't already a large Anti-German feeling in Europe.
What do you mean by, "she's ignoring it?" She's not going to hop on a plane and dethrone Syriza. People really need to get the silly idea out of their heads that a democratic decision in Greece means that other European nations have follow the same route or continue to bail them out.
Greece can stop cooperation with the European institutions, but the institutions and nations on the other side of the negotiations can do the same. If this is good or bad for Greece we'll see, but it has nothing to do with democracy.
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On July 06 2015 04:09 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:05 Gorsameth wrote:
Why should the EU give a damn about the mandate of some dude in Greece?
Greece broke a deal and tried to re-negotiate. The EU has exactly 0 commitments to reaching a new deal. I donno about you, but as a Dutch person, I'd like some of my money back.
The money in Greece is lost already. They cannot survive without debt-relief. Which means money vanishing.
You know what is the biggest chance of us getting our money back? The Greeks fixing their economy and recovering. And they have proven to be to entirely unwilling to do that without being forced to do so by the EU.
On July 06 2015 04:11 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:05 Gorsameth wrote:On July 06 2015 04:01 Alcathous wrote:On July 06 2015 03:58 Toadesstern wrote:On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. what if Germany/the rest of Europe makes a referendum and the people don't want to make a deal that gives in more? You realize no deal means Greece pays nothing? Pretty sure no one here would vote to 100% cancel all Greek debt. I know I wouldn't. If we want any of our money back, we better figure out a way with the Greeks how this is done. If Junker and Dijsselbloem are personally betrayed, have no trust left, they better gtfo for the sake of the Dutch and German taxpayer's money. Unless of course Junker and Dijsselbloem go on tv and take back their words/personal attacks on the Greek politicians who got two strong mandates within 5 months. Dijsselbloem's party must not have gotten a single clear mandate since 1998. And they as a political party try to sit exactly in the middle of the balance of power where Syriza is 'radical left'. Why should the EU give a damn about the mandate of some dude in Greece? Greece broke a deal and tried to re-negotiate. The EU has exactly 0 commitments to reaching a new deal. Cause having Germany, that is how everyone would perceive it, ignoring a nations own referendum which both sides accepted would happen will go over great when Merkel announces she's ignoring it. As if there isn't already a large Anti-German feeling in Europe.
Merkel doesn't need to ignore the referendum. The referendum is about accepting a proposal that is over a week old and is no longer on the table anyway.
The No vote is now unofficially associated with accepting a Greek Exit.
If anything by dropping Greece like a stone Merkel would be acting in accordance with a No vote.
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On July 06 2015 04:14 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:10 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone here is going by 100% of the 240bn is lost already and it's only about what we're going to lose in the next couple years oO
So yeah, wouldn't be surprised if people are in favor of that in Germany Not sure what you are saying. The Greek debt is 240 bn. If Greece defaults, we lose that. Now we Dutch and German people, we can take that hit. But don't forget there's also taxpayers in countries that are poorer than Greece is right now. They also lose their money. I think it would be smart to maximize the money we can get out of Greece; ie not let Greece default but negotiate the best deal we can get Syriza to accept.
I'm saying you're not getting any money back from Greece. At least not more than they're going to need the next couple years, no matter what course of action will be taken.
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Gorsameth, nothing you say makes any sense to me. The 240 bn is already gone? WTF You suddenly want to offer Greece debt relief?
All Syriza asked for is to not lower or higher the 240 bn, but to push the payoff deadlines further back so the economy can recover and stopping the austerity that isn't working and wasting talent and labor Greece has, but can't use.
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On July 06 2015 04:14 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:10 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone here is going by 100% of the 240bn is lost already and it's only about what we're going to lose in the next couple years oO
So yeah, wouldn't be surprised if people are in favor of that in Germany Not sure what you are saying. The Greek debt is 240 bn. If Greece defaults, we lose that. Now we Dutch and German people, we can take that hit. But don't forget there's also taxpayers in countries that are poorer than Greece is right now. They also lose their money. I think it would be smart to maximize the money we can get out of Greece; ie not let Greece default but negotiate the best deal we can get Syriza to accept. We can lose more money if we stack another 50 bn new debt on the debth Greece already has, which is what Dijsselbloem&Juncker wanted to do (in return for new austerity) but the Greeks today rejected.
Only that all those "deals" Greece is imagining involve throwing more money into that bottomless hole.
So losing 240 bn is much better then throwing more money into it.
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On July 06 2015 04:17 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm saying you're not getting any money back from Greece. At least not more than they're going to need the next couple years.
But until the 30th, we have been making a nice profit off of Greece.
If Greece had voted 'yes', we would have gotten even more interest off Greece as the debt was to be 50 bn higher than it already as.
Only case where we lose all our money is when Greece defaults without a deal.
You seem very confused about what has happened the past few years. I am not sure if it is your ability in using the English language or your sources, but something that you say is very wrong. Something beyond just having different opinions/ideology.
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On July 06 2015 04:17 Alcathous wrote:
Gorsameth, nothing you say makes any sense to me. The 240 bn is already gone? WTF You suddenly want to offer Greece debt relief?
All Syriza asked for is to not lower or higher the 240 bn, but to push the payoff deadlines further back so the economy can recover and stopping the austerity that isn't working and wasting talent and labor Greece has, but can't use.
Greece is broke. It has no money. Their banks have no money. They cannot survive without receiving money even if we cancelled all their debts.
Additionally the Greek debt is unsustainable. They cannot repay it. If you don't believe me go check it yourself. the IMF came to the same conclusion earlier this week. Greece cannot survive without Debt relief.
We will never get all that 240 bn back, ever.
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On July 06 2015 04:17 mahrgell wrote:
Only that all those "deals" Greece is imagining involve throwing more money into that bottomless hole.
So losing 240 bn is much better then throwing more money into it.
No. That is actually what Europe wanted. No restructure, 50 bn more debt and more austerity. Syriza refused to pass such a deal, no more 'extend and pretend'.
And today the Greeks voted against it as well. EC won't force Greece into taking on more debt.
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On July 06 2015 04:19 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:17 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm saying you're not getting any money back from Greece. At least not more than they're going to need the next couple years. But until the 30th, we have been making a nice profit off of Greece. If Greece had voted 'yes', we would have gotten even more interest off Greece as the debt was to be 50 bn higher than it already as. Only case where we lose all our money is when Greece defaults without a deal. You seem very confused about what has happened the past few years. I am not sure if it is your ability in using the English language or your sources, but something that you say is very wrong. Something beyond just having different opinions/ideology.
it's not really a profit if we're sending more money and are going to continue doing so no matter the outcome than we're getting back, is it?
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On July 06 2015 04:22 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:17 mahrgell wrote:
Only that all those "deals" Greece is imagining involve throwing more money into that bottomless hole.
So losing 240 bn is much better then throwing more money into it.
No. That is actually what Europe wanted. No restructure, 50 bn more debt and more austerity. Syriza refused to pass such a deal, no more 'extend and pretend'. And today the Greeks voted against it as well. EC won't force Greece into taking on more debt.
Correct. Greece chose to not take on more debt.
And since they are broke that means they will be forced to print their own money which will force them out of the Eurozone.
What exactly is your point?
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On July 06 2015 04:20 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:17 Alcathous wrote:
Gorsameth, nothing you say makes any sense to me. The 240 bn is already gone? WTF You suddenly want to offer Greece debt relief?
All Syriza asked for is to not lower or higher the 240 bn, but to push the payoff deadlines further back so the economy can recover and stopping the austerity that isn't working and wasting talent and labor Greece has, but can't use. Greece is broke. It has no money. Their banks have no money. They cannot survive without receiving money even if we cancelled all their debts. Additionally the Greek debt is unsustainable. They cannot repay it. If you don't believe me go check it yourself. the IMF came to the same conclusion earlier this week. Greece cannot survive without Debt relief. We will never get all that 240 bn back, ever.
Seems you changed debating strategy and rhetoric after the preliminary result. Can't take you seriously any longer as you said the opposite earlier today.
It seems that the media here made you hate Greece so much you rather pay 700 euro to be allowed to throw Greece out of the Eurozone, the EU, NATO and into a black hole. Then laugh and blame it on them, all out of spite. Oh, the propaganda, oh the blind hate.
We can make a deal with Greece. Get some of our money back, and get the Greek economy rolling. But that's not what you want. So be it. Begone out of this thread now, as you have only hate to spew.
Like I said before, not every country can afford to cancel all of Greek's debt out of spite, then throw them into the third world. But we Dutch people can of course always unilaterally cancel all our debt with Greece. Rutte all promised us 1000 euro anyway. Take out the 700 to write off the Greek debt, we even have 300 left.
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On July 06 2015 04:22 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:19 Alcathous wrote:On July 06 2015 04:17 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm saying you're not getting any money back from Greece. At least not more than they're going to need the next couple years. But until the 30th, we have been making a nice profit off of Greece. If Greece had voted 'yes', we would have gotten even more interest off Greece as the debt was to be 50 bn higher than it already as. Only case where we lose all our money is when Greece defaults without a deal. You seem very confused about what has happened the past few years. I am not sure if it is your ability in using the English language or your sources, but something that you say is very wrong. Something beyond just having different opinions/ideology. it's not really a profit if we're sending more money and are going to continue doing so no matter the outcome than we're getting back, is it?
It is. Because Greece pays interest over a number that gets larger year by year. Only at the 30th they stopped paying and we stopped profiting. Donno how you can say this with a honest stare. Surely you must know that what you say is false.
Why you think banks want to load their customers up with debt? Because it is profitable to do so.
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My position is the same it has always been. Greece shouldnt have broken the Eurozones accord and kept up with the measures that had been implemented before Tsipras came to power. Once the reforms were implemented debt relief would have come on the table.
Today Greece (again) said no to that. What I described in my last post is simply a likely way this will resolve itself. Greece has shut the negotiations, there is little more to discuss.
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On July 05 2015 20:55 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2015 20:23 warding wrote:Tax reform doesn't just mean adjusting tax rates. The troika demanded specific measures which were undertaken in Portugal to ensure tax collection (every small shop has to have a certified register; tax benefits for consumers that ask for receipts and introduce their tax ID; reinforcement of the tax authorities). As a result, we have one of the lowest VAT gaps in the EU. Greece has been improving, but it is still pretty bad: + Show Spoiler + That's rather amazing. Then again, practically all the Portuguese people I've met over the past year (I work for an overarching institution that governs employer taxes of the Belgian construction industry) were very co-operative, wanted to play by the rules and incredibly friendly. A surprising amount of them spoke French rather well too. Considering the amount of Portuguese, Poles and Romanians active in the Belgian construction industry, there's clearly no lack of ambition of people in less well-off countries to better their situation. I am starting to wonder whether there is a large gap between what the people in those countries actually want compared to what their government delivers, or wants to deliver. Then again, governments are not immune to interest groups trying to pull things their way.
Most likely because they were french. There is a big portuguese community in France.
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On July 06 2015 04:11 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:08 RvB wrote:
Of course they have issues with Tsipras and Varoufakis when you're being accused of terrorism and blackmail while you're negotiating. Stepping down because of that makes no sense though. Everyone has to work with people they don't like sometime. That doesn't mean you can't be a professional about it and get the job done. They basically said the Greek people had to vote 'yes' because they couldn't personally negotiate with Tsipras and Varoufakis any longer. The blackmail is obvious. As a Dutch person that is being robbed, I agree. We did try to blackmail Greece. The 'terrorism' thing gets blown out of proportions, of course. When I go to youtube and watch speeches by Tsipras and Varoufakis, I agree with what they say. When I watch NOS news, go to Telegraaf, and read what they say about Tsipras and Varoufakis, these two are indeed two crazy idiots ruining Europe.
No the Greek people have to vote yes because a no vote would mean they reject the offer the creditors gave. What basis is there to negotiate if the Greek people just rejected it? (Tbh though I think even if there is a no vote negotiations will continue).
Where did we blackmail Greece? Just saying you agree with it doesn't make it so. We're renegotiating a package which the previous Greek government already agreed upon. I don't see how you can make blackmail out of that.
He literally said it was terrorism, I don't get how that's blown out of proportion. Whether you agree or not is pretty irrelevant to that fact.
On July 06 2015 04:22 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 04:17 mahrgell wrote:
Only that all those "deals" Greece is imagining involve throwing more money into that bottomless hole.
So losing 240 bn is much better then throwing more money into it.
No. That is actually what Europe wanted. No restructure, 50 bn more debt and more austerity. Syriza refused to pass such a deal, no more 'extend and pretend'. And today the Greeks voted against it as well. EC won't force Greece into taking on more debt.
No that's not what this negotiations and referendum are about at all. They're about the rescue package that was still on till june 30. The 50 bln is a number from the IMF which would be needed in a whole new package which would have to be seperately negotiated.
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On July 06 2015 04:30 Gorsameth wrote:
My position is the same it has always been. Greece shouldnt have broken the Eurozones accord and kept up with the measures that had been implemented before Tsipras came to power. Once the reforms were implemented debt relief would have come on the table.
Today Greece (again) said no to that. What I described in my last post is simply a likely way this will resolve itself. Greece has shut the negotiations, there is little more to discuss.
Even this is false. The Greek government has put the best offer they were offered to their voters in a referendum. The voters said 'no'. Now Greece wants to go back to the negotiating table. Dijsselbloem has always said the door is still open (if Greece votes 'yes'), so now we see if indeed the eurozone still wants to talk, or if they are untrustworthy and reckless.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://www.ato.gov.au/uploadedImages/Content/ITX/Images/ITX43515Fig7.gif?n=8002)
