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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 06 2015 03:25 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:13 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 02:19 Acrofales wrote:On July 06 2015 02:17 Amnesty wrote:
Yes = Negotiate a deal, stay in the EU
No = Default, leave the EU
Correct? That is the dumbest, out of a lot of dumb things in this referendum: nobody even knows what they're voting for, including the Greeks doing the voting. it's one of the huge flaws of democracy.. The vast majority of voters probably don't understand the exact implications of their vote on a surface level, and I would be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside of wallstreet and the ECB that could accurately describe what Y/N votes actually implied. It's a complete and utter crapshoot, although in reality Y/N probably lead to the same result in the long run, being cultural reforms in Greece (and probably political reform as well). It's (imo) one of the best things about having a senate/parliament decide these kind of things rather than an entire populace. While the populace might not be 100% represented in a senate, the senate has access to financial advisers that can ideally provide guidance on extremely complicated financial matters. While it gives the advisers undue power over the country, it's pretty common in how the US regulates its financial sector since not every senator can be an ex wallstreet exec (and it allows the representation of other classes to increase as well, which is the point of a democracy after all). not to mention that the SEC and the Federal Reserve are predominantly populated with ex-wallstreet people, leading to some people commenting that there's undue bias in American financial legislation. You might be mixing up Senate and Congress. The Greeks have a unicameral parliament, which is more akin to "Congress" than Senate which is one of the rooms of Congress. I'm unaware of any governments which call their parliament or their entire legislature "senate". Might be wrong but ye. sorry i meant congress as a whole, i dunno why i said senate. and i was talking more about this massive referendum more than the formal parliament, i have never heard of a populace voting in this manner rather than just delegating votes. why isn't the greek parliament doing all of this behind closed doors?
Well in this case it's because the parliament feels that it lacks the legitimacy that is required to make a decision like this one which has long term consequences, and so it makes a referendum to legitimize its actions. By getting a "no", the government feels like its actions are justified.
It's undeniable that the government is watching its back. When shit inevitably goes to hell and the population is ready to toss them under the bus, they'll point back to the referendum and say "look, you guys wanted to do it!". The referendum is therefore a sham, it's a political game, which is funny because the Greek government in the middle of a financial catastrophe is spending money doing politics instead of using what's left of its financial capability to actually help a people who's buying power and quality of life is declining rapidly.
And the Greeks are voting "no" to preserve their democracy against the mighty mean dictatorial EU which allowed them to borrow heaps of cash for 16 years. And I'm not saying that Greece should be willing to give up part of its soul, part of its sovereignty to anyone. But damn.
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On July 06 2015 03:25 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:13 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 02:19 Acrofales wrote:On July 06 2015 02:17 Amnesty wrote:
Yes = Negotiate a deal, stay in the EU
No = Default, leave the EU
Correct? That is the dumbest, out of a lot of dumb things in this referendum: nobody even knows what they're voting for, including the Greeks doing the voting. it's one of the huge flaws of democracy.. The vast majority of voters probably don't understand the exact implications of their vote on a surface level, and I would be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside of wallstreet and the ECB that could accurately describe what Y/N votes actually implied. It's a complete and utter crapshoot, although in reality Y/N probably lead to the same result in the long run, being cultural reforms in Greece (and probably political reform as well). It's (imo) one of the best things about having a senate/parliament decide these kind of things rather than an entire populace. While the populace might not be 100% represented in a senate, the senate has access to financial advisers that can ideally provide guidance on extremely complicated financial matters. While it gives the advisers undue power over the country, it's pretty common in how the US regulates its financial sector since not every senator can be an ex wallstreet exec (and it allows the representation of other classes to increase as well, which is the point of a democracy after all). not to mention that the SEC and the Federal Reserve are predominantly populated with ex-wallstreet people, leading to some people commenting that there's undue bias in American financial legislation. You might be mixing up Senate and Congress. The Greeks have a unicameral parliament, which is more akin to "Congress" than Senate which is one of the rooms of Congress. I'm unaware of any governments which call their parliament or their entire legislature "senate". Might be wrong but ye. sorry i meant congress as a whole, i dunno why i said senate. and i was talking more about this massive referendum more than the formal parliament, i have never heard of a populace voting in this manner rather than just delegating votes. why isn't the greek parliament doing all of this behind closed doors?
By putting it on the people the government can wash its hand of the mess and join point at the results and say "you told us to".
From the start this has been described as a move by Tsipras to avoid responsibility.
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On July 06 2015 03:34 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:25 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 03:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:13 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 02:19 Acrofales wrote:On July 06 2015 02:17 Amnesty wrote:
Yes = Negotiate a deal, stay in the EU
No = Default, leave the EU
Correct? That is the dumbest, out of a lot of dumb things in this referendum: nobody even knows what they're voting for, including the Greeks doing the voting. it's one of the huge flaws of democracy.. The vast majority of voters probably don't understand the exact implications of their vote on a surface level, and I would be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside of wallstreet and the ECB that could accurately describe what Y/N votes actually implied. It's a complete and utter crapshoot, although in reality Y/N probably lead to the same result in the long run, being cultural reforms in Greece (and probably political reform as well). It's (imo) one of the best things about having a senate/parliament decide these kind of things rather than an entire populace. While the populace might not be 100% represented in a senate, the senate has access to financial advisers that can ideally provide guidance on extremely complicated financial matters. While it gives the advisers undue power over the country, it's pretty common in how the US regulates its financial sector since not every senator can be an ex wallstreet exec (and it allows the representation of other classes to increase as well, which is the point of a democracy after all). not to mention that the SEC and the Federal Reserve are predominantly populated with ex-wallstreet people, leading to some people commenting that there's undue bias in American financial legislation. You might be mixing up Senate and Congress. The Greeks have a unicameral parliament, which is more akin to "Congress" than Senate which is one of the rooms of Congress. I'm unaware of any governments which call their parliament or their entire legislature "senate". Might be wrong but ye. sorry i meant congress as a whole, i dunno why i said senate. and i was talking more about this massive referendum more than the formal parliament, i have never heard of a populace voting in this manner rather than just delegating votes. why isn't the greek parliament doing all of this behind closed doors? Well in this case it's because the parliament feels that it lacks the legitimacy that is required to make a decision like this one which has long term consequences, and so it makes a referendum to legitimize its actions. By getting a "no", the government feels like its actions are justified. It's undeniable that the government is watching its back. When shit inevitably goes to hell and the population is ready to toss them under the bus, they'll point back to the referendum and say "look, guy guys wanted to do it!". The referendum is therefore a sham, it's a political game, which is funny because the Greek government in the middle of a financial catastrophe is spending money doing politics instead of using what's left of its financial capability to actually help a people who's buying power and quality of life is declining rapidly. And the Greeks are voting "no" to preserve their democracy against the mighty mean dictatorial EU which allowed them to borrow heaps of cash for 16 years. And I'm not saying that Greece should be willing to give up part of its soul, part of its sovereignty to anyone. But damn.
ah okay, thanks for all the insight to why this is all going down the way it is.
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On July 06 2015 03:39 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:25 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 03:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:13 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 02:19 Acrofales wrote:On July 06 2015 02:17 Amnesty wrote:
Yes = Negotiate a deal, stay in the EU
No = Default, leave the EU
Correct? That is the dumbest, out of a lot of dumb things in this referendum: nobody even knows what they're voting for, including the Greeks doing the voting. it's one of the huge flaws of democracy.. The vast majority of voters probably don't understand the exact implications of their vote on a surface level, and I would be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside of wallstreet and the ECB that could accurately describe what Y/N votes actually implied. It's a complete and utter crapshoot, although in reality Y/N probably lead to the same result in the long run, being cultural reforms in Greece (and probably political reform as well). It's (imo) one of the best things about having a senate/parliament decide these kind of things rather than an entire populace. While the populace might not be 100% represented in a senate, the senate has access to financial advisers that can ideally provide guidance on extremely complicated financial matters. While it gives the advisers undue power over the country, it's pretty common in how the US regulates its financial sector since not every senator can be an ex wallstreet exec (and it allows the representation of other classes to increase as well, which is the point of a democracy after all). not to mention that the SEC and the Federal Reserve are predominantly populated with ex-wallstreet people, leading to some people commenting that there's undue bias in American financial legislation. You might be mixing up Senate and Congress. The Greeks have a unicameral parliament, which is more akin to "Congress" than Senate which is one of the rooms of Congress. I'm unaware of any governments which call their parliament or their entire legislature "senate". Might be wrong but ye. sorry i meant congress as a whole, i dunno why i said senate. and i was talking more about this massive referendum more than the formal parliament, i have never heard of a populace voting in this manner rather than just delegating votes. why isn't the greek parliament doing all of this behind closed doors? Well in this case it's because the parliament feels that it lacks the legitimacy that is required to make a decision like this one which has long term consequences, and so it makes a referendum to legitimize its actions. By getting a "no", the government feels like its actions are justified. It's undeniable that the government is watching its back. When shit inevitably goes to hell and the population is ready to toss them under the bus, they'll point back to the referendum and say "look, guy guys wanted to do it!". The referendum is therefore a sham, it's a political game, which is funny because the Greek government in the middle of a financial catastrophe is spending money doing politics instead of using what's left of its financial capability to actually help a people who's buying power and quality of life is declining rapidly. And the Greeks are voting "no" to preserve their democracy against the mighty mean dictatorial EU which allowed them to borrow heaps of cash for 16 years. And I'm not saying that Greece should be willing to give up part of its soul, part of its sovereignty to anyone. But damn. ah okay, thanks for all the insight to why this is all going down the way it is.
The whole Tsipras (Greece) vs Eurozone negotation has been a game of poker. Tsipras was bluffing that the EU would not allow them to default and would give in to Greek proposals instead. The EU on the other hand could not afford to do so because of the precedence it would set for other weak EU countries to try and get better deals by causing a fuss as well as political pressure by their own constituents who are unwilling for their tax money to be spend on Greece (who to them seem unwilling to suffer the hardships they brought upon themselves).
The EU called Tsipras bluff and so he resorted to the referendum to save his political hide.
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For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal.
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On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal.
lol, I especially like the addition of Rutte there, who has not been involved in the negotiations at all.
Seems your personal prejudice is shining through a little.
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On July 06 2015 03:43 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:39 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 03:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:25 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 03:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:13 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 02:19 Acrofales wrote:On July 06 2015 02:17 Amnesty wrote:
Yes = Negotiate a deal, stay in the EU
No = Default, leave the EU
Correct? That is the dumbest, out of a lot of dumb things in this referendum: nobody even knows what they're voting for, including the Greeks doing the voting. it's one of the huge flaws of democracy.. The vast majority of voters probably don't understand the exact implications of their vote on a surface level, and I would be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside of wallstreet and the ECB that could accurately describe what Y/N votes actually implied. It's a complete and utter crapshoot, although in reality Y/N probably lead to the same result in the long run, being cultural reforms in Greece (and probably political reform as well). It's (imo) one of the best things about having a senate/parliament decide these kind of things rather than an entire populace. While the populace might not be 100% represented in a senate, the senate has access to financial advisers that can ideally provide guidance on extremely complicated financial matters. While it gives the advisers undue power over the country, it's pretty common in how the US regulates its financial sector since not every senator can be an ex wallstreet exec (and it allows the representation of other classes to increase as well, which is the point of a democracy after all). not to mention that the SEC and the Federal Reserve are predominantly populated with ex-wallstreet people, leading to some people commenting that there's undue bias in American financial legislation. You might be mixing up Senate and Congress. The Greeks have a unicameral parliament, which is more akin to "Congress" than Senate which is one of the rooms of Congress. I'm unaware of any governments which call their parliament or their entire legislature "senate". Might be wrong but ye. sorry i meant congress as a whole, i dunno why i said senate. and i was talking more about this massive referendum more than the formal parliament, i have never heard of a populace voting in this manner rather than just delegating votes. why isn't the greek parliament doing all of this behind closed doors? Well in this case it's because the parliament feels that it lacks the legitimacy that is required to make a decision like this one which has long term consequences, and so it makes a referendum to legitimize its actions. By getting a "no", the government feels like its actions are justified. It's undeniable that the government is watching its back. When shit inevitably goes to hell and the population is ready to toss them under the bus, they'll point back to the referendum and say "look, guy guys wanted to do it!". The referendum is therefore a sham, it's a political game, which is funny because the Greek government in the middle of a financial catastrophe is spending money doing politics instead of using what's left of its financial capability to actually help a people who's buying power and quality of life is declining rapidly. And the Greeks are voting "no" to preserve their democracy against the mighty mean dictatorial EU which allowed them to borrow heaps of cash for 16 years. And I'm not saying that Greece should be willing to give up part of its soul, part of its sovereignty to anyone. But damn. ah okay, thanks for all the insight to why this is all going down the way it is. The whole Tsipras (Greece) vs Eurozone negotation has been a game of poker. Tsipras was bluffing that the EU would not allow them to default and would give in to Greek proposals instead. The EU on the other hand could not afford to do so because of the precedence it would set for other weak EU countries to try and get better deals by causing a fuss as well as political pressure by their own constituents who are unwilling for their tax money to be spend on Greece (who to them seem unwilling to suffer the hardships they brought upon themselves). The EU called Tsipras bluff and so he resorted to the referendum to save his political hide.
I've heard a lot about the Greek regime vs the ECB and its affiliates, but the vast majority of my exposure to this whole crisis has been more a perspective of american financial institutions and the various Y/N votes' impacts on wallstreet (that's generally what is shown in the financial press over here from what I have seen, and that's all that I've experienced in my professional exposure). What are other Europeans saying about the Y/N scenarios? Do most Europeans wish for a Greek exit?
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On July 06 2015 03:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. lol, I especially like the addition of Rutte there, who has not been involved in the negotiations at all. Seems your personal prejudice is shining through a little.
Why object to Rutte but not to Merkel? Ok, maybe he can stay. He is irrelevant anyway.
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On July 06 2015 03:52 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:43 Gorsameth wrote:On July 06 2015 03:39 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 03:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:25 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 03:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:13 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 02:19 Acrofales wrote:On July 06 2015 02:17 Amnesty wrote:
Yes = Negotiate a deal, stay in the EU
No = Default, leave the EU
Correct? That is the dumbest, out of a lot of dumb things in this referendum: nobody even knows what they're voting for, including the Greeks doing the voting. it's one of the huge flaws of democracy.. The vast majority of voters probably don't understand the exact implications of their vote on a surface level, and I would be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside of wallstreet and the ECB that could accurately describe what Y/N votes actually implied. It's a complete and utter crapshoot, although in reality Y/N probably lead to the same result in the long run, being cultural reforms in Greece (and probably political reform as well). It's (imo) one of the best things about having a senate/parliament decide these kind of things rather than an entire populace. While the populace might not be 100% represented in a senate, the senate has access to financial advisers that can ideally provide guidance on extremely complicated financial matters. While it gives the advisers undue power over the country, it's pretty common in how the US regulates its financial sector since not every senator can be an ex wallstreet exec (and it allows the representation of other classes to increase as well, which is the point of a democracy after all). not to mention that the SEC and the Federal Reserve are predominantly populated with ex-wallstreet people, leading to some people commenting that there's undue bias in American financial legislation. You might be mixing up Senate and Congress. The Greeks have a unicameral parliament, which is more akin to "Congress" than Senate which is one of the rooms of Congress. I'm unaware of any governments which call their parliament or their entire legislature "senate". Might be wrong but ye. sorry i meant congress as a whole, i dunno why i said senate. and i was talking more about this massive referendum more than the formal parliament, i have never heard of a populace voting in this manner rather than just delegating votes. why isn't the greek parliament doing all of this behind closed doors? Well in this case it's because the parliament feels that it lacks the legitimacy that is required to make a decision like this one which has long term consequences, and so it makes a referendum to legitimize its actions. By getting a "no", the government feels like its actions are justified. It's undeniable that the government is watching its back. When shit inevitably goes to hell and the population is ready to toss them under the bus, they'll point back to the referendum and say "look, guy guys wanted to do it!". The referendum is therefore a sham, it's a political game, which is funny because the Greek government in the middle of a financial catastrophe is spending money doing politics instead of using what's left of its financial capability to actually help a people who's buying power and quality of life is declining rapidly. And the Greeks are voting "no" to preserve their democracy against the mighty mean dictatorial EU which allowed them to borrow heaps of cash for 16 years. And I'm not saying that Greece should be willing to give up part of its soul, part of its sovereignty to anyone. But damn. ah okay, thanks for all the insight to why this is all going down the way it is. The whole Tsipras (Greece) vs Eurozone negotation has been a game of poker. Tsipras was bluffing that the EU would not allow them to default and would give in to Greek proposals instead. The EU on the other hand could not afford to do so because of the precedence it would set for other weak EU countries to try and get better deals by causing a fuss as well as political pressure by their own constituents who are unwilling for their tax money to be spend on Greece (who to them seem unwilling to suffer the hardships they brought upon themselves). The EU called Tsipras bluff and so he resorted to the referendum to save his political hide. I've heard a lot about the Greek regime vs the ECB and its affiliates, but the vast majority of my exposure to this whole crisis has been more a perspective of american financial institutions and the various Y/N votes' impacts on wallstreet (that's generally what is shown in the financial press over here from what I have seen, and that's all that I've experienced in my professional exposure). What are other Europeans saying about the Y/N scenarios? Do most Europeans wish for a Greek exit?
A grexit would create a huge shitstorm politically in almost every country because the nationalist will have it right when they will say "hey look, we can leave the euro, see greece"
imo this is something we should avoid at any cost
also the very project of the EU will be seen as a farce
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On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but if you are, Greece is not the centre around which the euro revolves. Quite the contrary. The Greek people can give Syrzia any mandate they want, if the creditors have no faith that a mutually beneficial deal can be reached as long as Tsipras and Varoufakis are leading the negotations nothing will happen. Greece is absolutely not in a position where they can make demands.
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On July 06 2015 03:54 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. I'm not sure if you're serious, but if you are, Greece is not the centre around which the euro revolves. Quite the contrary. The Greek people can give Syrzia any mandate they want, if the creditors have no faith that a mutually beneficial deal can be reached as long as Tsipras and Varoufakis are leading the negotations nothing will happen. Greece is absolutely not in a position where they can make demands.
You are saying this is not important enough? It is about more than just 240 billion euro. They have personal issues with Tsipras and Varoufakis. So for the sake of their own taxpayer&institutions, they should make space for people who can reach a deal.
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On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal.
what if Germany/the rest of Europe makes a referendum and the people don't want to make a deal that gives in more?
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On July 06 2015 03:52 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:43 Gorsameth wrote:On July 06 2015 03:39 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 03:34 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:25 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 03:18 Djzapz wrote:On July 06 2015 03:13 Endymion wrote:On July 06 2015 02:19 Acrofales wrote:On July 06 2015 02:17 Amnesty wrote:
Yes = Negotiate a deal, stay in the EU
No = Default, leave the EU
Correct? That is the dumbest, out of a lot of dumb things in this referendum: nobody even knows what they're voting for, including the Greeks doing the voting. it's one of the huge flaws of democracy.. The vast majority of voters probably don't understand the exact implications of their vote on a surface level, and I would be willing to bet that you would be hard pressed to find anyone outside of wallstreet and the ECB that could accurately describe what Y/N votes actually implied. It's a complete and utter crapshoot, although in reality Y/N probably lead to the same result in the long run, being cultural reforms in Greece (and probably political reform as well). It's (imo) one of the best things about having a senate/parliament decide these kind of things rather than an entire populace. While the populace might not be 100% represented in a senate, the senate has access to financial advisers that can ideally provide guidance on extremely complicated financial matters. While it gives the advisers undue power over the country, it's pretty common in how the US regulates its financial sector since not every senator can be an ex wallstreet exec (and it allows the representation of other classes to increase as well, which is the point of a democracy after all). not to mention that the SEC and the Federal Reserve are predominantly populated with ex-wallstreet people, leading to some people commenting that there's undue bias in American financial legislation. You might be mixing up Senate and Congress. The Greeks have a unicameral parliament, which is more akin to "Congress" than Senate which is one of the rooms of Congress. I'm unaware of any governments which call their parliament or their entire legislature "senate". Might be wrong but ye. sorry i meant congress as a whole, i dunno why i said senate. and i was talking more about this massive referendum more than the formal parliament, i have never heard of a populace voting in this manner rather than just delegating votes. why isn't the greek parliament doing all of this behind closed doors? Well in this case it's because the parliament feels that it lacks the legitimacy that is required to make a decision like this one which has long term consequences, and so it makes a referendum to legitimize its actions. By getting a "no", the government feels like its actions are justified. It's undeniable that the government is watching its back. When shit inevitably goes to hell and the population is ready to toss them under the bus, they'll point back to the referendum and say "look, guy guys wanted to do it!". The referendum is therefore a sham, it's a political game, which is funny because the Greek government in the middle of a financial catastrophe is spending money doing politics instead of using what's left of its financial capability to actually help a people who's buying power and quality of life is declining rapidly. And the Greeks are voting "no" to preserve their democracy against the mighty mean dictatorial EU which allowed them to borrow heaps of cash for 16 years. And I'm not saying that Greece should be willing to give up part of its soul, part of its sovereignty to anyone. But damn. ah okay, thanks for all the insight to why this is all going down the way it is. The whole Tsipras (Greece) vs Eurozone negotation has been a game of poker. Tsipras was bluffing that the EU would not allow them to default and would give in to Greek proposals instead. The EU on the other hand could not afford to do so because of the precedence it would set for other weak EU countries to try and get better deals by causing a fuss as well as political pressure by their own constituents who are unwilling for their tax money to be spend on Greece (who to them seem unwilling to suffer the hardships they brought upon themselves). The EU called Tsipras bluff and so he resorted to the referendum to save his political hide. I've heard a lot about the Greek regime vs the ECB and its affiliates, but the vast majority of my exposure to this whole crisis has been more a perspective of american financial institutions and the various Y/N votes' impacts on wallstreet (that's generally what is shown in the financial press over here from what I have seen, and that's all that I've experienced in my professional exposure). What are other Europeans saying about the Y/N scenarios? Do most Europeans wish for a Greek exit?
We Europeans are a very diverse bunch so opinions will vary wildly. Overall I think most are tired of the Greek attitude tho. For example at one point they said that Germany should pay Greece War Reparations from WW2 to pay their debt.
For a country that got itself into trouble by living above its capacity and sustaining that off cheap loans offered by the EU that attitude is not appreciated.
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On July 06 2015 03:54 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:52 Gorsameth wrote:On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. lol, I especially like the addition of Rutte there, who has not been involved in the negotiations at all. Seems your personal prejudice is shining through a little. Why object to Rutte but not to Merkel? Ok, maybe he can stay. He is irrelevant anyway.
Because Merkel has been more involved then Rutte? But hey I dont think anyone has to resign over this. The EU acted correctly. Greece tried to back out of an earlier deal, its up to them to provide an acceptable replacement. not the EU.
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On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal.
Really? Thats the solution?
Guys, i know it's a political gamble by Syriza and they have made many mistakes in these 5 months but please look at the big picture and stop thinking that the EU side is saints unwillingly melding with the lazy Greeks. People with better language and economics skills than me have pointed out that previous programs have failed. Almost all the money loaned so far have been used to postpone the debt resolution, have gone to the corrupt banks to keep them afloat. The notion that you loan money so we can swim in them Scrooge McDuck style has been shot down already.
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On July 06 2015 03:58 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. what if Germany/the rest of Europe makes a referendum and the people don't want to make a deal that gives in more?
You realize no deal means Greece pays nothing? Pretty sure no one here would vote to 100% cancel all Greek debt. I know I wouldn't.
If we want any of our money back, we better figure out a way with the Greeks how this is done. If Junker and Dijsselbloem are personally betrayed, have no trust left, they better gtfo for the sake of the Dutch and German taxpayer's money.
Unless of course Junker and Dijsselbloem go on tv and take back their words/personal attacks on the Greek politicians. Politicians who got two strong mandates within 5 months. Dijsselbloem's party must not have gotten a single clear mandate since 1998. And they as a political party try to sit exactly in the middle of the balance of power where Syriza is 'radical left'.
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On July 06 2015 04:01 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:58 Toadesstern wrote:On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Draghi, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. what if Germany/the rest of Europe makes a referendum and the people don't want to make a deal that gives in more? You realize no deal means Greece pays nothing? Pretty sure no one here would vote to 100% cancel all Greek debt. I know I wouldn't. If we want any of our money back, we better figure out a way with the Greeks how this is done. If Junker and Dijsselbloem are personally betrayed, have no trust left, they better gtfo for the sake of the Dutch and German taxpayer's money. Unless of course Junker and Dijsselbloem go on tv and take back their words/personal attacks on the Greek politicians who got two strong mandates within 5 months. Dijsselbloem's party must not have gotten a single clear mandate since 1998. And they as a political party try to sit exactly in the middle of the balance of power where Syriza is 'radical left'.
Why should the EU give a damn about the mandate of some dude in Greece?
Greece broke a deal and tried to re-negotiate. The EU has exactly 0 commitments to reaching a new deal.
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On July 06 2015 04:00 Gorsameth wrote:
Because Merkel has been more involved then Rutte? But hey I dont think anyone has to resign over this. The EU acted correctly. Greece tried to back out of an earlier deal, its up to them to provide an acceptable replacement. not the EU.
Why? They both hold the exact same position. Only, when Merkel speaks, she is put live on any news channel. If Rutte were to do the same, he wouldn't. So that's why he doesn't talk publicly.
Surely in the background he has as much power over Dijsselbloem as Merkel has over Schauble. (Even though Dijsselbloem has this obvious conflict of interest.)
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On July 06 2015 03:57 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2015 03:54 maartendq wrote:On July 06 2015 03:50 Alcathous wrote:
For the sake of the future of the euro, it is now time for Merkel, Junker, Rutte, Schauble, and Dijsselbloem to resign.
They made it quite clear that because of personal distrust, they can't reach a deal with Syriza and the Greek people made it quite clear they want Syriza to keep negotiating a deal. I'm not sure if you're serious, but if you are, Greece is not the centre around which the euro revolves. Quite the contrary. The Greek people can give Syrzia any mandate they want, if the creditors have no faith that a mutually beneficial deal can be reached as long as Tsipras and Varoufakis are leading the negotations nothing will happen. Greece is absolutely not in a position where they can make demands. You are saying this is not important enough? It is about more than just 240 billion euro. They have personal issues with Tsipras and Varoufakis. So for the sake of their own taxpayer&institutions, they should make space for people who can reach a deal.
Of course they have issues with Tsipras and Varoufakis when you're being accused of terrorism and blackmail while you're negotiating. Stepping down because of that makes no sense though. Everyone has to work with people they don't like sometime. That doesn't mean you can't be a professional about it and get the job done.
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On July 06 2015 04:05 Gorsameth wrote:
Why should the EU give a damn about the mandate of some dude in Greece?
Greece broke a deal and tried to re-negotiate. The EU has exactly 0 commitments to reaching a new deal.
I donno about you, but as a Dutch person, I'd like some of my money back.
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EPT
