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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On June 30 2015 22:56 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Lending money to pay an unsustainble debt must stop.Germans will stop this after they auction everything in Greece it seems there are still a lot of stuff.....anyway if you cant understand that all the World is talking about the blackmailing its not my fault as i said its difficult to admit that you are usury and blackmailer for anyone.
Please stop acting like a fool and behave. "Discussions" like these are not helping anyone. You are actually calling people names in a gaming forum :S
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On June 30 2015 23:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 22:56 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Lending money to pay an unsustainble debt must stop.Germans will stop this after they auction everything in Greece it seems there are still a lot of stuff.....anyway if you cant understand that all the World is talking about the blackmailing its not my fault as i said its difficult to admit that you are usury and blackmailer for anyone. Again where is the blackmailing? Give a specific answer please.
ECB cut the ELA and refused to extend it for 7 days to force people to vote for YES.
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On June 30 2015 21:55 phantomlancer23 wrote:
The persons who are in charge of European institutions are disgustin,liars and blackmailers.The Greek goverment must declare the debt illigal and fully erase it, also should leave euro and the only nagotiations that are willing to make is for compensations for the damage in the economy the last 5 years.
The debt can be declared illigal according to UN regulations.
-Its product of blackmail.
-Its against the Human Rights of Greek people.
-Its against the sovereignty of Greece.
-Its against the principle of mutuallity.(ex dont do to other Countries things you wouldnt do to yours).
-Greece indebted itself voluntarily because its parties needed money to keep buying votes
-It is not. There is no such thing as a "human right to a welfare state", especially if you can't afford it. Greece is still a much richer country than its neighbours and even some other EU memberstates. It is actually those countries that are playing hardline, not Germany.
-Greece is free to default, but the consequences will be hers and hers alone.
-The what now? There's actually many countries that are cutting down on government spending. The main difference, however, is that Greece needs to cut hell of a lot more because it (still) doesn't make enough money to pay for it all, and has been dragging its feet on meaningful reforms for the past five years.
If this is the average voter's position than Greece is even worse of than I thought.
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On June 30 2015 21:55 phantomlancer23 wrote:
The persons who are in charge of European institutions are disgustin,liars and blackmailers.The Greek goverment must declare the debt illigal and fully erase it, also should leave euro and the only nagotiations that are willing to make is for compensations for the damage in the economy the last 5 years.
The debt can be declared illigal according to UN regulations.
-Its product of blackmail.
-Its against the Human Rights of Greek people.
-Its against the sovereignty of Greece.
-Its against the principle of mutuallity.(ex dont do to other Countries things you wouldnt do to yours).
Are you Greek? No wonder the country is in awful situation.
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On June 30 2015 23:03 Simberto wrote:
Aaaand we are at "Evil germans 4th reich nazis". That was quick. Also note how i am not the german government. I didn't even vote for Merkel.
The problem is that apparently, greece would like to continue to get money lend to them and keep people investing in their country. As you seem to be aware, greece is a sovereign nation, and could just say "Fuck you we ain't gonna pay you back, ever". And noone could really force them to. There is no world police or world court that you could sue them at, basically the only way to "force" them to pay would be invading by military force, and that is not something anyone would do. However, they are still not willing to do this. If you figure out why that is the case, you are closer to understanding what is going on, and a large step away from sounding like a teenager who has just found his first political ideology and is so very convinced that he has all the answers to all the problems.
Pointing fingers at others and shouting that they are evil will not solve problems, especially if you want something from them. Which still appears to be the case.
Of course you are not the 4th reich. Many mistakes were made these past years, most of them by our governments, but the EU leadership has acted againt the good of their people on the long run. IMF should have never been allowed to step its foot in the Eurozone, there is no evidence in the world that that would have ended well.
The things that have happened in Greece, the way our lives have been so irrevocably changed, would have caused a much bigger turmoil if they have happened on a more stable state. Germany or France or anyone other with real power would never accept terms like this. The poorer countries of the Eurozone fail to understand that loosing things that we took for granted is way worse than not getting those things yet.
On an unrelated note, Tsipras said in his interview yesterday that he wants a NO in the referendum so that he has a much firmer hand in the negotiations. He also said that if YES won he will resign. Latest developments point at EU accepting the deal proposed by Greece last week and mentioning the debt sustainability on the deal.
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On June 30 2015 23:09 phantomlancer23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:01 Gorsameth wrote:On June 30 2015 22:56 phantomlancer23 wrote:
Lending money to pay an unsustainble debt must stop.Germans will stop this after they auction everything in Greece it seems there are still a lot of stuff.....anyway if you cant understand that all the World is talking about the blackmailing its not my fault as i said its difficult to admit that you are usury and blackmailer for anyone. Again where is the blackmailing? Give a specific answer please. ECB cut the ELA and refused to extend it for 7 days to force people to vote for YES.
You had months to have a referendum. You already got an extension from the original deadline in February.
Calling a deadline a deadline is not blackmail.
Please try again.
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Apparently Tsipras came up with a new proposition.
I'm at a loss on what's going on inside that guy's head really. Declining the previous proposition by calling for a referendum, and now suddenly came up with a new proposition.
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On June 30 2015 23:35 maartendq wrote:
Apparently Tsipras came up with a new proposition.
I'm at a loss on what's going on inside that guy's head really. Declining the previous proposition by calling for a referendum, and now suddenly came up with a new proposition.
Just being an incompetent negotiator?
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On June 30 2015 23:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:35 maartendq wrote:
Apparently Tsipras came up with a new proposition.
I'm at a loss on what's going on inside that guy's head really. Declining the previous proposition by calling for a referendum, and now suddenly came up with a new proposition. Just being an incompetent negotiator?
But he's being advised by an EXPERT IN GAME THEORY. Also the guy worked at Valve. Yay!
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On June 30 2015 23:23 gsgfdf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:03 Simberto wrote:
Aaaand we are at "Evil germans 4th reich nazis". That was quick. Also note how i am not the german government. I didn't even vote for Merkel.
The problem is that apparently, greece would like to continue to get money lend to them and keep people investing in their country. As you seem to be aware, greece is a sovereign nation, and could just say "Fuck you we ain't gonna pay you back, ever". And noone could really force them to. There is no world police or world court that you could sue them at, basically the only way to "force" them to pay would be invading by military force, and that is not something anyone would do. However, they are still not willing to do this. If you figure out why that is the case, you are closer to understanding what is going on, and a large step away from sounding like a teenager who has just found his first political ideology and is so very convinced that he has all the answers to all the problems.
Pointing fingers at others and shouting that they are evil will not solve problems, especially if you want something from them. Which still appears to be the case. The things that have happened in Greece, the way our lives have been so irrevocably changed, would have caused a much bigger turmoil if they have happened on a more stable state. Germany or France or anyone other with real power would never accept terms like this. The poorer countries of the Eurozone fail to understand that loosing things that we took for granted is way worse than not getting those things yet.
You are clear that you are actually asking these states, that are poorer than you, to pay you a livestyle that they themselves can't afford for their own people?
The poorer countries understand perfectly fine what your position is and they have every right to say "go fuck yourself".
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On June 30 2015 21:21 Simberto wrote:
No, that would be a 40% increase of the value of a Euro compared to a Drachme. If the Drachme loses 40% of its value compared to the Euro, that means a Drachme is worth 60% of what it was before, or a Euro is is worth 1/0.6 = 5/3=~166% of what it was used to be.
Now, i do not know which prediction those people actually made, but these terms are very clear.
Yeah sorry, took the wrong base currency and then fucked up.
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Let's say that Greece and EU doesn't agree with a proposal before the day ends and they do put it up to public votes and the Yes side wins every test poll so far done says it will be close, like 56%-60% of the people will say yes, won't that mean that Greece are pretty well on their way to leave EU anyway?
How can you call that a "stable economical climate" It wouldn't take much more reforms and further austerity to push Greece bellow 50% then. Why would any sane investor pour money into EU that is on the brink of collapse?
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On June 30 2015 23:46 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:23 gsgfdf wrote:On June 30 2015 23:03 Simberto wrote:
Aaaand we are at "Evil germans 4th reich nazis". That was quick. Also note how i am not the german government. I didn't even vote for Merkel.
The problem is that apparently, greece would like to continue to get money lend to them and keep people investing in their country. As you seem to be aware, greece is a sovereign nation, and could just say "Fuck you we ain't gonna pay you back, ever". And noone could really force them to. There is no world police or world court that you could sue them at, basically the only way to "force" them to pay would be invading by military force, and that is not something anyone would do. However, they are still not willing to do this. If you figure out why that is the case, you are closer to understanding what is going on, and a large step away from sounding like a teenager who has just found his first political ideology and is so very convinced that he has all the answers to all the problems.
Pointing fingers at others and shouting that they are evil will not solve problems, especially if you want something from them. Which still appears to be the case. The things that have happened in Greece, the way our lives have been so irrevocably changed, would have caused a much bigger turmoil if they have happened on a more stable state. Germany or France or anyone other with real power would never accept terms like this. The poorer countries of the Eurozone fail to understand that loosing things that we took for granted is way worse than not getting those things yet. You are clear that you are actually asking these states, that are poorer than you, to pay you a livestyle that they themselves can't afford for their own people? The poorer countries understand perfectly fine what your position is and they have every right to say "go fuck yourself".
Please don't make assumptions about me just because the last guy was a moron. It's not my fault if all you see when a greek talks is a beggar that wants to scam you out of your hard earned money.
I am not asking these states to provide my country with anything. I am stating why those states see it the way they do. They fail to understand that their countries will follow the exact same trajectory. Extreme growth for some time then collapse on the next economic crisis. Just wait till we find that their FinMin tampered with the numbers to enter the Eurozone like ours did.
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On July 01 2015 00:00 gsgfdf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:46 Velr wrote:On June 30 2015 23:23 gsgfdf wrote:On June 30 2015 23:03 Simberto wrote:
Aaaand we are at "Evil germans 4th reich nazis". That was quick. Also note how i am not the german government. I didn't even vote for Merkel.
The problem is that apparently, greece would like to continue to get money lend to them and keep people investing in their country. As you seem to be aware, greece is a sovereign nation, and could just say "Fuck you we ain't gonna pay you back, ever". And noone could really force them to. There is no world police or world court that you could sue them at, basically the only way to "force" them to pay would be invading by military force, and that is not something anyone would do. However, they are still not willing to do this. If you figure out why that is the case, you are closer to understanding what is going on, and a large step away from sounding like a teenager who has just found his first political ideology and is so very convinced that he has all the answers to all the problems.
Pointing fingers at others and shouting that they are evil will not solve problems, especially if you want something from them. Which still appears to be the case. The things that have happened in Greece, the way our lives have been so irrevocably changed, would have caused a much bigger turmoil if they have happened on a more stable state. Germany or France or anyone other with real power would never accept terms like this. The poorer countries of the Eurozone fail to understand that loosing things that we took for granted is way worse than not getting those things yet. You are clear that you are actually asking these states, that are poorer than you, to pay you a livestyle that they themselves can't afford for their own people? The poorer countries understand perfectly fine what your position is and they have every right to say "go fuck yourself". Please don't make assumptions about me just because the last guy was a moron. It's not my fault if all you see when a greek talks is a beggar that wants to scam you out of your hard earned money. I am not asking these states to provide my country with anything. I am stating why those states see it the way they do. They fail to understand that their countries will follow the exact same trajectory. Extreme growth for some time then collapse on the next economic crisis. Just wait till we find that their FinMin tampered with the numbers to enter the Eurozone like ours did.
You are comparing the problem Greece is encountering by projecting it on France or Germany. And this just wouldn't have happened in the first place since France and Germany are the main contributor for the EU, they are the one that "carry" the EU up by giving more than they receive, as opposed to Greece with is on the receiving end since forever.
Beside that, the GDP of these countries are much higher, allowing its citizens to live in a higher standard. Greece technically lied about its revenues and depenses to appear as a richer state that it was, all because of populists representatives and taxe evasion.
You rip what you sow, and you must face the consequences now. Not willing to cut in your high standard because it was taken for granted is not a valid reason either.
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Germany will not accept any new deals until the vote in Greece has been done so unless some kind of Deus Ex Machina happens Greece wont pay IMF and nothing new will really happen until next week once the Greece populus has had their election.
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On July 01 2015 01:49 Integra wrote:
Germany will not accept any new deals until the vote in Greece has been done so unless some kind of Deus Ex Machina happens Greece wont pay IMF and nothing new will really happen until next week once the Greece populus has had their election.
Makes sense, What point is there to make a deal if its going to be subject to the referendum result that follows after. No one wants to risk lending money onto to see Greece tell them to get lost 5 days later.
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On June 30 2015 23:59 Integra wrote:
Let's say that Greece and EU doesn't agree with a proposal before the day ends and they do put it up to public votes and the Yes side wins every test poll so far done says it will be close, like 56%-60% of the people will say yes, won't that mean that Greece are pretty well on their way to leave EU anyway?
How can you call that a "stable economical climate" It wouldn't take much more reforms and further austerity to push Greece bellow 50% then. Why would any sane investor pour money into EU that is on the brink of collapse?
You are vastly overestimating the effect of Greece on the rest of EU - no matter the outcome. Getting people to invest in Greece after this entire ordeal might be more difficult, however the rest of EU will be absolutely just fine.
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The money that greece lacks is a joke to the eu.
the problem is that greece doesnt seem willing to truely reform.
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On June 30 2015 23:46 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2015 23:23 gsgfdf wrote:On June 30 2015 23:03 Simberto wrote:
Aaaand we are at "Evil germans 4th reich nazis". That was quick. Also note how i am not the german government. I didn't even vote for Merkel.
The problem is that apparently, greece would like to continue to get money lend to them and keep people investing in their country. As you seem to be aware, greece is a sovereign nation, and could just say "Fuck you we ain't gonna pay you back, ever". And noone could really force them to. There is no world police or world court that you could sue them at, basically the only way to "force" them to pay would be invading by military force, and that is not something anyone would do. However, they are still not willing to do this. If you figure out why that is the case, you are closer to understanding what is going on, and a large step away from sounding like a teenager who has just found his first political ideology and is so very convinced that he has all the answers to all the problems.
Pointing fingers at others and shouting that they are evil will not solve problems, especially if you want something from them. Which still appears to be the case. The things that have happened in Greece, the way our lives have been so irrevocably changed, would have caused a much bigger turmoil if they have happened on a more stable state. Germany or France or anyone other with real power would never accept terms like this. The poorer countries of the Eurozone fail to understand that loosing things that we took for granted is way worse than not getting those things yet. You are clear that you are actually asking these states, that are poorer than you, to pay you a livestyle that they themselves can't afford for their own people? The poorer countries understand perfectly fine what your position is and they have every right to say "go fuck yourself".
But if you had the tiniest amount of sincerity you should first explain to them how greek debt ended upon their hands in first place because, as have been said a quadrillion of times, originally back to 2009 the greek debt was much lower and, more important, possessed in great majority by french and german banks.
You should explain to them how the bailout programs that designed by the EU and the IMF imposed on Greece effectively transferred the debt upon the shoulders of the european people and increased it in unsustainable levels.
It was the greek people that were demonstrating by thousands against those programs since day one, blooded, beaten and imprisoned for days without a hearing, with civil rights vastly revoked.
Wondering where everyone was to stand against the EU/IMF programs when the governments of the eurozone were voting at their parliaments. Living their own lifestyle i guess.
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EPT
