EPTEven right now it is very unclear if the No-vote will get a majority.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 138
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Even right now it is very unclear if the No-vote will get a majority. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On July 01 2015 03:47 Nyxisto wrote: You guys had an election in 2012, right? At the time the majority of Greek people still supported the EU/IMF programs, so where does that notion come from that people were "blooded,beaten and imprisoned"? People have short memory for these sorts of things | ||
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Hagen0
Germany765 Posts
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-troika-analysis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed Even in totally otherwordly dream scenarios Greece will not be able to repay any significant amount of the debt. It just is not possible. The suffering we inflict on the Greek people is not only unnecessary but also immoral. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17992 Posts
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886 The European Commission offered a slightly amended deal to Greece late on Monday night, which the Greek government did not accept. Instead, Greece responded with a request for a two-year deal under the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), the bailout mechanism for eurozone countries whose aim is to maintain the stability of the euro. The ESM did not exist when Greece was bailed out in 2010 and 2012. However, German Chancellor Angela Merkel has insisted that the eurozone's wealthiest member will not enter into new aid negotiations with Greece before its weekend referendum. "Before a referendum, as planned, is carried out, we won't negotiate on anything new at all," she said. European Union leaders have warned that a rejection of creditors' proposals would mean Greece leaving the eurozone - though Mr Tsipras says he does not want this to happen. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21687 Posts
Surely they will grant him that /sarcasm | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
this is the actual request. I have the feeling they're actually trying to troll everybody else right now. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17992 Posts
On July 01 2015 04:17 Gorsameth wrote: Tsipras plan to get a better deal on the loans has failed. So now he asks for money with no reforms at all. Surely they will grant him that /sarcasm While I feel sorry for the Greeks, structural mismanagement and lack of long-term planning, building up for the last 30 years led to where we are today, and voting in the clowns of Syriza has only made tings worse. They are treating their crisis like a joke, and it has gotten to the point of alienating everybody. I would not be surprised at all if the rest of Europe just says "well Greece, you had your chance. It was fun working with you, and good luck in the future" I have seen African military dictators with more diplomatic tact than Tsipras and Varoufakis have handled the last few days. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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accela
Greece314 Posts
On July 01 2015 03:47 Nyxisto wrote: You guys had an election in 2012, right? At the time the majority of Greek people still supported the EU/IMF programs, so where does that notion come from that people were "blooded,beaten and imprisoned"? Even right now it is very unclear if the No-vote will get a majority. Well then you are not aware that the greek electoral system is not proportionally representative. On July 01 2015 04:17 Gorsameth wrote: Tsipras plan to get a better deal on the loans has failed. So now he asks for money with no reforms at all. Surely they will grant him that /sarcasm In fact the greek proposal itself contains plenty of austerity measures (that's what you call "reforms"). - It's funny, first there was a *final* proposal given to the greek government that they should accept it or not in 48 hours. Then (after the referendum announced) a new proposal appeared by Juncer that was pretty much the same. Then they asked to greek government to get back to negotiations to reach a deal even before referendum. And now that there won't be a deal but after the referendum. Make up your mind already ^^' | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 01 2015 04:41 accela wrote: Well then you are not aware that the greek electoral system is not proportionally representative. Well neither is the British, doesn't mean that they cease being a democracy or that elections don't carry representative weight. It's not even clear if the no-vote will pass, so acting like dissidents have been chased through the streets over the last years is a little ridiculous. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17992 Posts
On July 01 2015 04:41 accela wrote: Well then you are not aware that the greek electoral system is not proportionally representative. In fact the greek proposal itself contains plenty of austerity measures (that's what you call "reforms"). - It's funny, first there was a *final* proposal given to the greek government that they should accept it or not in 48 hours. Then (after the referendum announced) a new proposal appeared by Juncer that was pretty much the same. Then they asked to greek government to get back to negotiations to reach a deal even before referendum. And now that there won't be a deal but after the referendum. Make up your mind already ^^' Stop buying your government's propaganda. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On July 01 2015 04:20 Nyxisto wrote: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIwVqpNWgAEM_X9.jpg:large this is the actual request. I have the feeling they're actually trying to troll everybody else right now. Seriously, this is the proposal? With the formatting, wild font changes, just one page, no details? Almost gotta feel with the guy, probably hasn't slept in days. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On July 01 2015 04:41 accela wrote: Of course it contains austerity measures, that is what is called compromise. One side wants a lot of it, the other none, so they arrive at plenty...In fact the greek proposal itself contains plenty of austerity measures (that's what you call "reforms"). A proposal with no austerity at all would have no chance in all the other non-Greek parliaments. Every side has to vote on it, remember? It's funny, first there was a *final* proposal given to the greek government that they should accept it or not in 48 hours. 1. The Greek side timed it to the last minute! Eurogroup wanted to finalize it on Tuesday last week, but like many times before Greek's 'late at night multiple e-mail version trolling' prevented them from doing so.2. It was 'final' in the sense that it was the last chance for you guys to get the 7.2 billion that were earmarked for you to pay IMF. In case you have not heard, you guys just missed that payment... Then (after the referendum announced) a new proposal appeared by Juncer that was pretty much the same. Yea, the Greek negotiation team just got an e-mail from Tsipras and immediately left the table. Leaving us with two very similar but still different versions. Junker wanted to bridge that gap to give your (!) referendum at least some meaning.Then they asked to greek government to get back to negotiations to reach a deal even before referendum. No, they are not! They all say they are 'open' to discussion, if the Greek come back to the table, not more.And now that there won't be a deal but after the referendum. Yea, what would be the point of the referendum otherwise?Make up your mind already ^^' Get your facts straight. | ||
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Hondelul
1999 Posts
On July 01 2015 05:16 ACrow wrote: Seriously, this is the proposal? With the formatting, wild font changes, just one page, no details? Almost gotta feel with the guy, probably hasn't slept in days. Seriously, this as a joke/fake, no? Or at least the first draft before other people correct it. If not I'm agreeing to the troll part, but for that it would be to obvious... | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On July 01 2015 06:22 Hondelul wrote: Seriously, this as a joke/fake, no? Or at least the first draft before other people correct it. If not I'm agreeing to the troll part, but for that it would be to obvious... Last secretary that knew how word worked got laid off. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
Didn't Merkel say a couple days ago that the debt is sustainable? Was that an outright lie or what? Juncker lying is no big deal, but Merkel? Also, the request for a new loan is the official process one goes through to get a new ESM program. This is an obvious step, since the previous program ended and Greece still is in dire straits (in case you haven't noticed). FinMins have said before that a 3rd program would be available only upon successful completion of the 2nd program, but ESM regulations specify no such thing (so, another lie, but they can make it true if politically motivated enough to throw Greece out of the EZ). ESM programs come with 'conditionalities' attached, which means a new MoU. You'd have known all that with a tiny bit of searching around but I suppose it is more fun for some people to just call the Greek govt trolls, lol about it, so on and so forth. I can't really blame you, of course, judging from actual EU FinMins basically doing the same thing (seriously, how is the Austrian Chancellor such a nice person and the Austrian FinMin ... well... not such a nice person). edit: Also this is the first I've seen of this trolly picture of the request. I suspect this is so because I don't often visit sites like kathimerini.gr, which have always been rather troika friendly and have gone on propaganda overdrive over the referendum (as one would expect). Posting a silly looking document as the official request of the Greek government for a new loan agreement is par for the course. These are the same people that claimed the Greek government provided untranslated texts and such in meetings with foreign officials. You have to be really fckin dumb to believe this crap (sorry for colorful language but I'm getting quite exasperated with some things/people). | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21687 Posts
On July 01 2015 06:31 Taguchi wrote: Curious that none of you guys comment on the Guardian article which reports that the IMF has sent documents to all German MPs outlining that the debt is unsustainable under even the best case scenario. A lot more in the article of course, most things have been repeated in this thread too. Didn't Merkel say a couple days ago that the debt is sustainable? Was that an outright lie or what? Juncker lying is no big deal, but Merkel? Also, the request for a new loan is the official process one goes through to get a new ESM program. This is an obvious step, since the previous program ended and Greece still is in dire straits (in case you haven't noticed). FinMins have said before that a 3rd program would be available only upon successful completion of the 2nd program, but ESM regulations specify no such thing (so, another lie, but they can make it true if politically motivated enough to throw Greece out of the EZ). ESM programs come with 'conditionalities' attached, which means a new MoU. You'd have known all that with a tiny bit of searching around but I suppose it is more fun for some people to just call the Greek govt trolls, lol about it, so on and so forth. I can't really blame you, of course, judging from actual EU FinMins basically doing the same thing (seriously, how is the Austrian Chancellor such a nice person and the Austrian FinMin ... well... not such a nice person). Yeah not like it could be that the EU doesn't want to open up more money for Greece until the previous agreement has been completed. No lets assume they lie instead, better fits the narrative of blaming everyone except yourself for the problems you are in. Has it accord to you that perhaps the reason you have no support at all in the EU is because Greece plays the roll of tantrum toddler so well with utterly no hint of humility or self reflection? | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
On July 01 2015 06:36 Gorsameth wrote: Yeah not like it could be that the EU doesn't want to open up more money for Greece until the previous agreement has been completed. No lets assume they lie instead, better fits the narrative of blaming everyone except yourself for the problems you are in. Has it accord to you that perhaps the reason you have no support at all in the EU is because Greece plays the roll of tantrum toddler so well with utterly no hint of humility or self reflection? What are you replying to? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21687 Posts
FinMins have said before that a 3rd program would be available only upon successful completion of the 2nd program, but ESM regulations specify no such thing (so, another lie, but they can make it true if politically motivated enough to throw Greece out of the EZ). Gee I wonder why they wont give us a new loan when they havnt send us the money from the previous one yet. | ||
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