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On April 12 2022 03:48 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So again I will ask, can you vote in the French election Nebuchad?
Are you, or are you not, voting for Le Pen? If not, who and why?
Also...imagine describing France as a neoliberal system. At that point the word has no meaning, much like how some people throw "you all on the left" around. It's no longer a descriptor of a set of policies, but a tribal rallying call and identity against an "other". How would you define neoliberalism?
Talking of Macron or France as neoliberal is about as good of a use of the concept as when the tea party called Obama a communist.
Neoliberal has a meaning, historical and ideological and none of it has anything to do with basically anything nor anyone in France. Almost everytime it’s used these days it’s a red flag that the conversation is going to go nowhere.
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On April 12 2022 09:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 03:48 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So again I will ask, can you vote in the French election Nebuchad?
Are you, or are you not, voting for Le Pen? If not, who and why?
Also...imagine describing France as a neoliberal system. At that point the word has no meaning, much like how some people throw "you all on the left" around. It's no longer a descriptor of a set of policies, but a tribal rallying call and identity against an "other". How would you define neoliberalism? Talking of Macron or France as neoliberal is about as good of a use of the concept as when the tea party called Obama a communist. Neoliberal has a meaning, historical and ideological and none of it has anything to do with basically anything nor anyone in France. Almost everytime it’s used these days it’s a red flag that the conversation is going to go nowhere.
The similarity comes in the political mechanism. Macron aims to represent the left choice, and someone at the far right will represent the right choice. The "leftist" liberal choice in that system will be to the left of standard neoliberalism, and the rightwing choice will be to the right of standard neoliberalism. As such, sometimes the "left" will win, sometimes the "right" will win, and as long as the right doesn't go full fascist neoliberalism is satisfied with whoever wins.
Similarly in the US Biden is to the left of the standard neoliberal position on some topics, and that doesn't make the US suddenly a social democracy.
What is most likely to happen in the next five years is Macron will continue to prop up far right nonsense so that the political conversation of France revolves around the far right and it remains the enemy to fight against.
That being said, the system is fragile: Mélenchon is doing way better than expected. So it's not set in stone that Macron will succeed in implementing the system he wants.
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In other news:
2022 will be the first year in centuries, where less than 50% of the Germans are officially part of either the Protestant (19.7 million members) or the Catholic church (21.8 million).
For comparison, in 1990 this number was still 72%. Between 2000 and 2015 the number shrunk by about 0.6%-0.8% per year, since then by about 1%-1.4% per year.
Besides church members dying out, also the number of people leaving the church has dramatically increased over the last years, especially due to the abuse scandals and the connected scandals about the unwillingness to properly investigate and face those issues.
So now officially more than 40% of the Germans are without any religious association, though those numbers include a number of Jews and Muslims who are not officially part of any religious institution. Also when adding up all Christian groups, there are still a little bit more than 50% of the people Christian.
source (in German): https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesellschaft/kirche-katholisch-oder-evangelisch-nicht-einmal-mehr-die-haelfte-in-deutschland-a-274e0475-fc22-4504-a8ca-963924a40651
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On April 12 2022 10:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 09:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 12 2022 03:48 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
So again I will ask, can you vote in the French election Nebuchad?
Are you, or are you not, voting for Le Pen? If not, who and why?
Also...imagine describing France as a neoliberal system. At that point the word has no meaning, much like how some people throw "you all on the left" around. It's no longer a descriptor of a set of policies, but a tribal rallying call and identity against an "other". How would you define neoliberalism? Talking of Macron or France as neoliberal is about as good of a use of the concept as when the tea party called Obama a communist. Neoliberal has a meaning, historical and ideological and none of it has anything to do with basically anything nor anyone in France. Almost everytime it’s used these days it’s a red flag that the conversation is going to go nowhere. The similarity comes in the political mechanism. Macron aims to represent the left choice, and someone at the far right will represent the right choice. The "leftist" liberal choice in that system will be to the left of standard neoliberalism, and the rightwing choice will be to the right of standard neoliberalism. As such, sometimes the "left" will win, sometimes the "right" will win, and as long as the right doesn't go full fascist neoliberalism is satisfied with whoever wins. Similarly in the US Biden is to the left of the standard neoliberal position on some topics, and that doesn't make the US suddenly a social democracy. What is most likely to happen in the next five years is Macron will continue to prop up far right nonsense so that the political conversation of France revolves around the far right and it remains the enemy to fight against. That being said, the system is fragile: Mélenchon is doing way better than expected. So it's not set in stone that Macron will succeed in implementing the system he wants. Is it really that hard to answer a yes or no question on whether you can vote in the French election. If I missed it, I apologise and you'll just have to repeat it.
You still havent defined neoliberalism, except to comment somehow that you beleive in France neoliberalism always wins in the French election, which is as far as reality can possibly be.
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This is becoming even more worrying, wonder how popular this is in France. On top that if she wins this would essentially cripple the Alliance.
“I want France to leave NATO’s unified military command. I will never agree that our troops are subordinate to the NATO command or the European command. France should return to the status in the alliance that it had from 1966 to 2009,” the French presidential candidate said.
National Rally candidate Marine Le Pen has said that if she wins the presidential election, she will withdraw France from NATO’s unified military command.
Le Pen said that if she is elected, she intends to offer NATO a strategic rapprochement with Russia after the end of the conflict in Ukraine.
Source
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On April 14 2022 08:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:This is becoming even more worrying, wonder how popular this is in France. On top that if she wins this would essentially cripple the Alliance. Show nested quote +“I want France to leave NATO’s unified military command. I will never agree that our troops are subordinate to the NATO command or the European command. France should return to the status in the alliance that it had from 1966 to 2009,” the French presidential candidate said.
National Rally candidate Marine Le Pen has said that if she wins the presidential election, she will withdraw France from NATO’s unified military command.
Le Pen said that if she is elected, she intends to offer NATO a strategic rapprochement with Russia after the end of the conflict in Ukraine. Source
I second wanting to know what French public opinions are on Nato. I tried finding opinion polling but couldn't find anything done after the invasion of Ukraine, which I would assume would bolster support for Nato like it has across the West
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To be devils advocate What she is saying is that they go back to the cold war era stance of France just being a petulant child about the NATO command structure.
The Supreme Allied Commander EUROPE (SACEUR) Could have been from any nation in the alliance as long as that nation started with a U and ended with a nited states of America. The Deputy Supreme Allied Command Europe (DSACEUR) could have been from any nation but Circumstances as it were it was always going to be Someone from Britian.
So they took their troops from the command structure of the alliance but also at the same time signed a treaty that in the event of a soviet invasion they would immediately rejoin.
So them leaving the command structure like she wants means nothing and it would just the French childishness if anything. There isn't really a need for a unified command structure in the immediate if the former soviet states in NATO could probably take Russia on their own it seems.
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On April 14 2022 12:38 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2022 08:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:This is becoming even more worrying, wonder how popular this is in France. On top that if she wins this would essentially cripple the Alliance. “I want France to leave NATO’s unified military command. I will never agree that our troops are subordinate to the NATO command or the European command. France should return to the status in the alliance that it had from 1966 to 2009,” the French presidential candidate said.
National Rally candidate Marine Le Pen has said that if she wins the presidential election, she will withdraw France from NATO’s unified military command.
Le Pen said that if she is elected, she intends to offer NATO a strategic rapprochement with Russia after the end of the conflict in Ukraine. Source I second wanting to know what French public opinions are on Nato. I tried finding opinion polling but couldn't find anything done after the invasion of Ukraine, which I would assume would bolster support for Nato like it has across the West
Also forgot to mention that this is the most recent French poll of Nato opinions I could find, from 12 November to 2 December. Some key takeaways:
72% of polled French citizens say Nato is important for security
50% would vote for France to remain in Nato, 15% against, and 35% undecided
42% say they feel safe in France, 40% say they don't, 18% undecided (looks like this is what Le Pen is tapping into)
18% of citizens of all Nato countries had a positive opinion of Russia, 29% neutral, 46% unfavorable, and 6% undecided (I imagine that disapproval figure is far higher now, but I'm not versed enough in European political opinions and perspectives to form a guess as to what it's at right now)
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_193491.htm
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No one cares about embezzlement accusations targeted at people who were never in power. The only people interested in this story are those who could already come up with like 12 other reasons not to vote for her.
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On April 18 2022 09:33 Sent. wrote:
No one cares about embezzlement accusations targeted at people who were never in power. The only people interested in this story are those who could already come up with like 12 other reasons not to vote for her.
In fact, seeing as how it's the EU accusing her, she'll probably use it to rile up the anti-EU base with claims that it's a witch hunt, and suggestions that the timing of the accusations is desperate EU tactics to keep Macron in power. It may very well help her to have an EU body be the accuser.
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Some good news, it appears.
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However, according to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2022_French_presidential_election#Macron_vs._Le_Pen), this poll is 3 days old, and today the same polling firm has realeased a new poll which says it's only 50%-49% in favor of Macron.
Nvm, I refreshed wikipedia and the numbers changed.... it's now 56%-44% too.
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This situation regarding Muslim riots in Sweden is both interesting and sad. Regardless of how you feel about immigration, I think it is fair to say that the people rioting have no place in Sweden. Violence against religious disrespect is incredibly inappropriate and does not reflect Sweden's culture or ethics.
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On April 19 2022 04:08 Mohdoo wrote:
This situation regarding Muslim riots in Sweden is both interesting and sad. Regardless of how you feel about immigration, I think it is fair to say that the people rioting have no place in Sweden. Violence against religious disrespect is incredibly inappropriate and does not reflect Sweden's culture or ethics.
What started the riots? I hadn't heard of this til your post.
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On April 19 2022 04:12 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2022 04:08 Mohdoo wrote:
This situation regarding Muslim riots in Sweden is both interesting and sad. Regardless of how you feel about immigration, I think it is fair to say that the people rioting have no place in Sweden. Violence against religious disrespect is incredibly inappropriate and does not reflect Sweden's culture or ethics. What started the riots? I hadn't heard of this til your post.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61134734
A politician burned a Quran and said he'd do it again. And thus cars are on fire.
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Northern Ireland23894 Posts
On April 19 2022 04:08 Mohdoo wrote:
This situation regarding Muslim riots in Sweden is both interesting and sad. Regardless of how you feel about immigration, I think it is fair to say that the people rioting have no place in Sweden. Violence against religious disrespect is incredibly inappropriate and does not reflect Sweden's culture or ethics.
I don’t think running about stoking the flames of religious/immigration tension by making public edgelord stunts like burning the Qur’an is especially reflective of wider Swedish cultural norms either.
In and of itself yeah I agree with you but it’s always Muslims with these things, and brown Muslims in particular who are subject to these purity tests and general anti-immigration hysteria.
Not a response to provocation I remotely agree but, but the provocation itself never tends to stem from a particularly benign place. With the exception of something like the Charlie Hebdo cartoons.
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It represents a clear tactic going forward for far right politicians to gain power by constantly stoking the refugee populations. All they have to do is claim that they're going to burn a quran and then see them put in the worst light.
Expect this is every nation going forward.
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On April 19 2022 05:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2022 04:08 Mohdoo wrote:
This situation regarding Muslim riots in Sweden is both interesting and sad. Regardless of how you feel about immigration, I think it is fair to say that the people rioting have no place in Sweden. Violence against religious disrespect is incredibly inappropriate and does not reflect Sweden's culture or ethics. I don’t think running about stoking the flames of religious/immigration tension by making public edgelord stunts like burning the Qur’an is especially reflective of wider Swedish cultural norms either. In and of itself yeah I agree with you but it’s always Muslims with these things, and brown Muslims in particular who are subject to these purity tests and general anti-immigration hysteria. Not a response to provocation I remotely agree but, but the provocation itself never tends to stem from a particularly benign place. With the exception of something like the Charlie Hebdo cartoons.
I disagree. I think that the response to the Quran burning is a perfect example of why the stunt was needed to begin with. If Sweden is undergoing cultural change/pressure which makes burning the Quran a bad thing, the conversation needs to be had to clarify what kind of country Sweden is or is not.
If you light a car on fire because of a Quran being burned by a political figure, you are fundamentally incompatible with Sweden's culture. It is important to make sure the freedom to burn religious literature is firmly maintained. I can think of countries where it is illegal to burn a Quran and I don't think Sweden ought to emulate them.
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Northern Ireland23894 Posts
On April 19 2022 07:01 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2022 05:19 WombaT wrote:On April 19 2022 04:08 Mohdoo wrote:
This situation regarding Muslim riots in Sweden is both interesting and sad. Regardless of how you feel about immigration, I think it is fair to say that the people rioting have no place in Sweden. Violence against religious disrespect is incredibly inappropriate and does not reflect Sweden's culture or ethics. I don’t think running about stoking the flames of religious/immigration tension by making public edgelord stunts like burning the Qur’an is especially reflective of wider Swedish cultural norms either. In and of itself yeah I agree with you but it’s always Muslims with these things, and brown Muslims in particular who are subject to these purity tests and general anti-immigration hysteria. Not a response to provocation I remotely agree but, but the provocation itself never tends to stem from a particularly benign place. With the exception of something like the Charlie Hebdo cartoons. I disagree. I think that the response to the Quran burning is a perfect example of why the stunt was needed to begin with. If Sweden is undergoing cultural change/pressure which makes burning the Quran a bad thing, the conversation needs to be had to clarify what kind of country Sweden is or is not. If you light a car on fire because of a Quran being burned by a political figure, you are fundamentally incompatible with Sweden's culture. It is important to make sure the freedom to burn religious literature is firmly maintained. I can think of countries where it is illegal to burn a Quran and I don't think Sweden ought to emulate them.
It is, equally it’s a stunt purely intended to stoke flames, motivated by xenophobia and racism, so, there is that.
What better way to make these folks feel welcome while simultaneously claiming they can’t assimilate than performatively burning their holy book?
To be clear I’m not saying, at all that this response is appropriate, just I’m not going to ally with the far right in this kind of stunt intended to prove their worldview.
Charlie Hebdo, a satirical magazine that generically pulled no punches I have no problem with.
I’ll happily defend that, I’m less comfortable defending obviously inflammatory behaviour that is motivated by racism.
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EPT
