|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 19 2022 07:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2022 07:01 Mohdoo wrote:On April 19 2022 05:19 WombaT wrote:On April 19 2022 04:08 Mohdoo wrote:
This situation regarding Muslim riots in Sweden is both interesting and sad. Regardless of how you feel about immigration, I think it is fair to say that the people rioting have no place in Sweden. Violence against religious disrespect is incredibly inappropriate and does not reflect Sweden's culture or ethics. I don’t think running about stoking the flames of religious/immigration tension by making public edgelord stunts like burning the Qur’an is especially reflective of wider Swedish cultural norms either. In and of itself yeah I agree with you but it’s always Muslims with these things, and brown Muslims in particular who are subject to these purity tests and general anti-immigration hysteria. Not a response to provocation I remotely agree but, but the provocation itself never tends to stem from a particularly benign place. With the exception of something like the Charlie Hebdo cartoons. I disagree. I think that the response to the Quran burning is a perfect example of why the stunt was needed to begin with. If Sweden is undergoing cultural change/pressure which makes burning the Quran a bad thing, the conversation needs to be had to clarify what kind of country Sweden is or is not. If you light a car on fire because of a Quran being burned by a political figure, you are fundamentally incompatible with Sweden's culture. It is important to make sure the freedom to burn religious literature is firmly maintained. I can think of countries where it is illegal to burn a Quran and I don't think Sweden ought to emulate them. It is, equally it’s a stunt purely intended to stoke flames, motivated by xenophobia and racism, so, there is that. What better way to make these folks feel welcome while simultaneously claiming they can’t assimilate than performatively burning their holy book? To be clear I’m not saying, at all that this response is appropriate, just I’m not going to ally with the far right in this kind of stunt intended to prove their worldview. Charlie Hebdo, a satirical magazine that generically pulled no punches I have no problem with. I’ll happily defend that, I’m less comfortable defending obviously inflammatory behaviour that is motivated by racism.
There is no book or item that a politician could burn that would make me feel unwelcome. It isn't that these people see it as unwelcoming, they see it as an affront to god. Is there any book that someone could burn that would make you light a car on fire? Is your immunity to this kind of behavior not an indication that you are sane?
I really like anime. If a politician burned a bunch of manga because he thinks weebs suck, I would not suddenly feel like I have no place in the country and I would not burn cars. First of all, it is just one politician, second, I'm just not capable of getting that angry about any book. He is being a douchebag but he is bringing attention to something that is absolutely true. Is there any other group in Sweden that we see burning cars in this way? If not, it is hard to say he's totally off base.
|
Book burning is typically part of a more perverse and pervasive cultural perspective. Perhaps Muslim people in Sweden are facing persecution beyond the public rallies to burn their holy book?
|
On April 19 2022 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Book burning is typically part of a more perverse and pervasive cultural perspective. Perhaps Muslim people in Sweden are facing persecution beyond the public rallies to burn their holy book?
Are you suggesting these riots are not due to book burning? Are you saying you think the people rioting subscribe to a culture with ethical superiority here? Please be clear about what you’re actually saying
|
I think he's suggesting the usual police just oppress and persecuted the communities they serve.
|
Northern Ireland26994 Posts
On April 19 2022 08:05 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2022 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Book burning is typically part of a more perverse and pervasive cultural perspective. Perhaps Muslim people in Sweden are facing persecution beyond the public rallies to burn their holy book? Are you suggesting these riots are not due to book burning? Are you saying you think the people rioting subscribe to a culture with ethical superiority here? Please be clear about what you’re actually saying
I read it that perhaps such folks are facing wider discriminatory behaviour in various forms, and thus the book burning aspect is piled on top of that rather than being isolated.
If one is say, a white Christian it’s pretty easy to shrug off some Bible burning because outside of personal offence it is largely a discrete act.
If I, one is, on the other hand a brown Muslim, with politicians fearmontering about people who look like you, or share your beliefs and whatnot, and indeed such rhetoric has gained traction all over Europe in the past 20 years, then burning your particular book has an added significance beyond merely an act of secular reinforcement.
If I am misreading GH I’m sure he’ll correct me, albeit it’s largely my position.
Not to excuse rioting but the underpinning causes I presume are considerably more multi-faceted
|
I'll wait and see if GH feels like actually saying something rather than replying to people trying to make sense of his vague allusions.
|
On April 19 2022 09:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2022 08:05 Mohdoo wrote:On April 19 2022 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Book burning is typically part of a more perverse and pervasive cultural perspective. Perhaps Muslim people in Sweden are facing persecution beyond the public rallies to burn their holy book? Are you suggesting these riots are not due to book burning? Are you saying you think the people rioting subscribe to a culture with ethical superiority here? Please be clear about what you’re actually saying I read it that perhaps such folks are facing wider discriminatory behaviour in various forms, and thus the book burning aspect is piled on top of that rather than being isolated. + Show Spoiler +
If one is say, a white Christian it’s pretty easy to shrug off some Bible burning because outside of personal offence it is largely a discrete act.
If I, one is, on the other hand a brown Muslim, with politicians fearmontering about people who look like you, or share your beliefs and whatnot, and indeed such rhetoric has gained traction all over Europe in the past 20 years, then burning your particular book has an added significance beyond merely an act of secular reinforcement.
If I am misreading GH I’m sure he’ll correct me, albeit it’s largely my position.
Not to excuse rioting but the underpinning causes I presume are considerably more multi-faceted
You read it correctly.
|
On April 19 2022 09:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2022 08:05 Mohdoo wrote:On April 19 2022 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
Book burning is typically part of a more perverse and pervasive cultural perspective. Perhaps Muslim people in Sweden are facing persecution beyond the public rallies to burn their holy book? Are you suggesting these riots are not due to book burning? Are you saying you think the people rioting subscribe to a culture with ethical superiority here? Please be clear about what you’re actually saying I read it that perhaps such folks are facing wider discriminatory behaviour in various forms, and thus the book burning aspect is piled on top of that rather than being isolated. If one is say, a white Christian it’s pretty easy to shrug off some Bible burning because outside of personal offence it is largely a discrete act. If I, one is, on the other hand a brown Muslim, with politicians fearmontering about people who look like you, or share your beliefs and whatnot, and indeed such rhetoric has gained traction all over Europe in the past 20 years, then burning your particular book has an added significance beyond merely an act of secular reinforcement. If I am misreading GH I’m sure he’ll correct me, albeit it’s largely my position. Not to excuse rioting but the underpinning causes I presume are considerably more multi-faceted
Feels like victim blaming. Since the husband is already stressed out from work, when he gets home to a cold dinner, we shouldn't blame him for hitting his wife. After all, he's already stressed out and it shouldn't surprise us that a cold dinner made someone angry.
Under no circumstances is it anywhere close to acceptable to get mad over a cold meal or book burning. Full stop it is purely indicative of an extremely bad person who is incapable of functioning in society. Having other stuff going on does not excuse bad behavior to the extent that we are seeing.
From what I understand, a very small% of Muslims in Sweden are rioting. This exercise shows that there is a small % of Muslims who are a large % of the bad behavior. This exercise shows that some people definitely do need to get deported asap. But it of course does not show there is a general problem with Muslims.
|
The guy burning Korans in public have no basic human decency. They have no respect at all for other people's beliefs.
The people rioting and burning cars in response also have no basic human decency.
Neither kind of person belong in civilized society.
|
The guy burning qurans suffered functional brain damage in a traffic accident in 2005. Prior to that he was a "normal" (albeit a little weird) member of society.
|
Please try a public bible burning in the US and expel everyone who riots afterwards. Quite sure it will rile up quite a lot of people, even those who currently support book burnings.
Alternatively I would suggest flag burning... (Though in the US this might have more fans than you would expect...) That is a similar kind of purity test.
PS: Occasional rioting and burning of cars is is just a very common European past time. You could almost argue that this shows how well adapted they are to Europe.
Whenever there is a strike in France or on May1st in Hamburg/Berlin or on Feb14 in Dresden. Car burning is part of our cultural heritage! /s
|
On April 19 2022 15:32 mahrgell wrote:
Please try a public bible burning in the US and expel everyone who riots afterwards. Quite sure it will rile up quite a lot of people, even those who currently support book burnings.
Alternatively I would suggest flag burning... (Though in the US this might have more fans than you would expect...) That is a similar kind of purity test.
PS: Occasional rioting and burning of cars is is just a very common European past time. You could almost argue that this shows how well adapted they are to Europe.
Whenever there is a strike in France or on May1st in Hamburg/Berlin or on Feb14 in Dresden. Car burning is part of our cultural heritage! /s
Maybe in central/southern europe. In Scandinavia it most certainly isnt. In Denmark we still occasionally discuss the last violent protest by ethnic Danes where the police had to draw guns to fire warning shots which happened in 1993 (Nørrebro-oprøret). It is being used as a case in medical school in the ethics course. The type of scenes we see in Sweden are NOT all commonplace in Scandinavia.
EDIT: To give you an idea of how "orderly" demonstrations usually occur: In Denmark on May 1.st there is a small fraction (about 20-50 people) who use whistles and water balloons to interrupt speeches of those they don't think are "red" enough. We consider this one of our bigger democratic problems. And the Swedes generally consider Danes unruly.
EDIT2: We have an "artist" who has crucified his penis (yes you read that right - don't ask I have absolutely no idea why) the last 5 easters or so. We have had muslims burn Danish flags due to our participation in Iraq/Afghanistan and due to the Muhammed drawings. Guess how many cars were burned in the "counterprotests" - the answer is 0 because there were no counterprotests.
|
I would like to add, that in Poland, protests/riots with car burning arent really a thing.
|
I can attest that it's a 1st of May tradition in Berlin.
Though I have to say that it's a minor occurence and has more to do with the frustration of helplessness against capitalism than everything else in my book.
More cars get damaged by (apolitical) arsonists than 1st of May anti-capitalist protestors anyway.
|
Yeah, this is a clear case of overreporting. It's not something "normal" during demonstrations.
|
How many /s do you need?
Though one may state that muslims burning down cars do to quran burnings also is overreporting.
|
On April 19 2022 19:21 mahrgell wrote:
How many /s do you need?
Though one may state that muslims burning down cars do to quran burnings also is overreporting.
Well considering the rest of your previous post - as well as this one - the generous interpretation is that the "/s" at most is associated with the PS-paragraph, although to me it read more like it was only the last sentence.
If your entire post was sarcastic then it was really nothing more than a trolly shit-post - which I guess is better than the alternative.
|
So what is going to be Moohdoo, ban hateful speech or not. The comparison between someone burning animes to the burning of a book which some people deem sacred is so idiotic that you should be ashamed.
That doesn't justify the looting, but the outrage itself, if It isn't properly punished, is more than comprensible.
|
On April 19 2022 21:42 Godwrath wrote:
So what is going to be Moohdoo, ban hateful speech or not. The comparison between someone burning animes to the burning of a book which some people deem sacred is so idiotic that you should be ashamed.
That doesn't justify the looting, but the outrage itself, if It isn't properly punished, is more than comprensible.
There is no law against burning the quran, so how do you want it punished? Punished by who?
The comparison works perfectly fine. They can think the book is sacred and at the same time act reasonably when some far-right nutcase burns a copy. No need to start a riot over it and throw molotov coctails in public transport.
|
On April 19 2022 21:42 Godwrath wrote:
So what is going to be Moohdoo, ban hateful speech or not. The comparison between someone burning animes to the burning of a book which some people deem sacred is so idiotic that you should be ashamed.
That doesn't justify the looting, but the outrage itself, if It isn't properly punished, is more than comprensible.
No, we have freedom of speech in Sweden. That includes sacrilege. I remember an art installation depicting Jesus in various explicit homoerotic situations. No burning of cars that time.
The problem is not the provocation. The problem is that we have entire suburbs now that are more or less controlled by criminal clans consisting of first and second generation immigrants. Ambulances need police escort and even the regular mail service has stopped serving some of these areas. That's how bad it is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
