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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
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Uh, what? Why would any weapon be fired in such an area?
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On February 24 2022 23:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Norway Coastguard, and Police appears to be taking control of a Yacht owned by former KGB associate.
Also Czech Republic has suspended granting Visas to Russian citizens.
Ridiculous to me how individuals' property and freedom can be limited on a whim due to the actions of their native government. It feels like a direct attack on Russian people to apply pressure on the Russian government, which certainly makes sense but doesn't feel very moral or democratic. In a way, it shows how powerless these governments truly are at making any material difference to the actual conflict at hand.
They don't care similarly how we didn't care when US invaded Iraq.
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On February 24 2022 23:34 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:09 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 22:44 Sent. wrote:
Hahaha neutral come on man Yes, neutral. Maybe when you are stuck in this echo chamber anything that isnt blindly bowing down to NATO foreign policy and propaganda is perceived as 'against us'. Out in the real World this doesn't hold water. Feel free to dig up my posts from the old Ukraine thread. Saying that Maidan was a bad idea and that it will ruin the country was a big no no here. Letting your country become a poking stick to provoke Russia is a bad thing and will end badly. Obvious totallatarian propaganda. Its been a multi-polar World for some time now. Sticking with idealogical zealotry and forcing your 'right' point of view on everyone else is the reason we are in the mess we are in right now. You are ready to sacrifice xyz amounts of poor people and countries to keep that high horse standing tall. Edit: only the first line meant for you Sent. The rest at the forum We did not force our point of view on anyone. Ukraine chose to be an independent country. Russia is denying that right by invading them. Russia has no right to dictate how the society of their neighbor is structured. The same way the USA has no right to bomb middle eastern countries. As long as your argument is that russia got provoked by NATO to attack their neighbor, you are wrong and any argument based on that is wrong. Russia could be a completely happy murderous dictatorship whithout ever worrying about their souvereingity, even if ukraine would be in NATO.
If by Ukraine chose you mean a few thousand street thugs in one city stormed administrative buildings and overthew the elected government that 50% of the country supported at molotov point chose to 'be independant' for them. Then yes, unelected officials chose to start a punitive war against their own population that didnt want the unelected far right deciding their future.
My argument is that Russia doesn't give a shit anymore because they will the painted as the bad guys whatever they do. So they pressed the red button because you would have said that they pressed it whatever they did. This is what idealogical zealotry does. It pushes the other side into a corner
NATO knew full well what was going to happen and they didnt even bat an eye to push the Kiev government to kill off their own country... for what?
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On February 24 2022 23:37 Jealous wrote:Ridiculous to me how individuals' property and freedom can be limited on a whim due to the actions of their native government. It feels like a direct attack on Russian people to apply pressure on the Russian government, which certainly makes sense but doesn't feel very moral or democratic. In a way, it shows how powerless these governments truly are at making any material difference to the actual conflict at hand.
Striking at the assets abroad of Putin's oligark friends seems like an obvious thing to do. Putin should have a very hard time ruling without their support.
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Russia is the bad guy here. No one needs to paint them this way, they are doing it pretty well themselves.
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On February 24 2022 23:52 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:34 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 24 2022 23:09 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 22:44 Sent. wrote:
Hahaha neutral come on man Yes, neutral. Maybe when you are stuck in this echo chamber anything that isnt blindly bowing down to NATO foreign policy and propaganda is perceived as 'against us'. Out in the real World this doesn't hold water. Feel free to dig up my posts from the old Ukraine thread. Saying that Maidan was a bad idea and that it will ruin the country was a big no no here. Letting your country become a poking stick to provoke Russia is a bad thing and will end badly. Obvious totallatarian propaganda. Its been a multi-polar World for some time now. Sticking with idealogical zealotry and forcing your 'right' point of view on everyone else is the reason we are in the mess we are in right now. You are ready to sacrifice xyz amounts of poor people and countries to keep that high horse standing tall. Edit: only the first line meant for you Sent. The rest at the forum We did not force our point of view on anyone. Ukraine chose to be an independent country. Russia is denying that right by invading them. Russia has no right to dictate how the society of their neighbor is structured. The same way the USA has no right to bomb middle eastern countries. As long as your argument is that russia got provoked by NATO to attack their neighbor, you are wrong and any argument based on that is wrong. Russia could be a completely happy murderous dictatorship whithout ever worrying about their souvereingity, even if ukraine would be in NATO. If by Ukraine chose you mean a few thousand street thugs in one city stormed administrative buildings and overthew the elected government that 50% of the country supported at molotov point chose to 'be independant' for them. Then yes, unelected officials chose to start a punitive war against their own population that didnt want the unelected far right deciding their future. My argument is that Russia doesn't give a shit anymore because they will the painted as the bad guys whatever they do. So they pressed the red button because you would have said that they pressed it whatever they did. This is what idealogical zealotry does. It pushes the other side into a corner NATO knew full well what was going to happen and they didnt even bat an eye to push the Kiev government to kill off their own country... for what?
Haha nice storytime there. Did Putin write your script?
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On February 24 2022 23:37 Jealous wrote:Ridiculous to me how individuals' property and freedom can be limited on a whim due to the actions of their native government. It feels like a direct attack on Russian people to apply pressure on the Russian government, which certainly makes sense but doesn't feel very moral or democratic. In a way, it shows how powerless these governments truly are at making any material difference to the actual conflict at hand.
At least with respect to the yacht, this approach is functionally putting pressure on the Russian government. When you have an oligarchy hitting the assets of the wealthy internationally is among the best ways to apply pressure to an international bad actor without costing human life or hitting people who had no power over the situation. Visas are another matter (especially because the wealthy can just get fake ones if they really want).
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A bit late comment, but Russia asking for NATO rollback to 1997 is pretty much asking for round 2 of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentages_agreement
They didn't get concession, they didn't manage to provoke Ukrainians to attack, so.. they started their invasion anyway. I don't see what there is to discuss, it's pretty much this:
On February 24 2022 23:55 Silvanel wrote:
Russia is the bad guy here. No one needs to paint them this way, they are doing it pretty well themselves.
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On February 24 2022 23:52 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:34 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 24 2022 23:09 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 22:44 Sent. wrote:
Hahaha neutral come on man Yes, neutral. Maybe when you are stuck in this echo chamber anything that isnt blindly bowing down to NATO foreign policy and propaganda is perceived as 'against us'. Out in the real World this doesn't hold water. Feel free to dig up my posts from the old Ukraine thread. Saying that Maidan was a bad idea and that it will ruin the country was a big no no here. Letting your country become a poking stick to provoke Russia is a bad thing and will end badly. Obvious totallatarian propaganda. Its been a multi-polar World for some time now. Sticking with idealogical zealotry and forcing your 'right' point of view on everyone else is the reason we are in the mess we are in right now. You are ready to sacrifice xyz amounts of poor people and countries to keep that high horse standing tall. Edit: only the first line meant for you Sent. The rest at the forum We did not force our point of view on anyone. Ukraine chose to be an independent country. Russia is denying that right by invading them. Russia has no right to dictate how the society of their neighbor is structured. The same way the USA has no right to bomb middle eastern countries. As long as your argument is that russia got provoked by NATO to attack their neighbor, you are wrong and any argument based on that is wrong. Russia could be a completely happy murderous dictatorship whithout ever worrying about their souvereingity, even if ukraine would be in NATO. If by Ukraine chose you mean a few thousand street thugs in one city stormed administrative buildings and overthew the elected government that 50% of the country supported at molotov point chose to 'be independant' for them. Then yes, unelected officials chose to start a punitive war against their own population that didnt want the unelected far right deciding their future. My argument is that Russia doesn't give a shit anymore because they will the painted as the bad guys whatever they do. So they pressed the red button because you would have said that they pressed it whatever they did. NATO knew full well what was going to happen and they didnt even bat an eye to push the Kiev government to kill off their own country... for what?
I am very curious about Putin's endgame, but I don't think it involves anything risking that Ukraine becomes a part of NATO, which could easily happen in a real democracy.
Ukraine's domestic political situation seems too complicated for me to understand, but it is an important part of why this is happening. I have seen Ukraine's governmet named as "democratically elected" in several outlets. To which degree is that true?
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Zurich15366 Posts
On February 24 2022 23:37 Jealous wrote:Ridiculous to me how individuals' property and freedom can be limited on a whim due to the actions of their native government. It feels like a direct attack on Russian people to apply pressure on the Russian government, which certainly makes sense but doesn't feel very moral or democratic. In a way, it shows how powerless these governments truly are at making any material difference to the actual conflict at hand.
Is that a serious post? You want to punish the sovereign of an aggressive nation. In an oligarchy, that's the oligarch. Is there a more fitting target?
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So there is fighting in Chernobyl right now. Fucking crazy, the one place you think both sides would agree not to use weaponry...
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On February 24 2022 23:59 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:52 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 23:34 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 24 2022 23:09 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 22:44 Sent. wrote:
Hahaha neutral come on man Yes, neutral. Maybe when you are stuck in this echo chamber anything that isnt blindly bowing down to NATO foreign policy and propaganda is perceived as 'against us'. Out in the real World this doesn't hold water. Feel free to dig up my posts from the old Ukraine thread. Saying that Maidan was a bad idea and that it will ruin the country was a big no no here. Letting your country become a poking stick to provoke Russia is a bad thing and will end badly. Obvious totallatarian propaganda. Its been a multi-polar World for some time now. Sticking with idealogical zealotry and forcing your 'right' point of view on everyone else is the reason we are in the mess we are in right now. You are ready to sacrifice xyz amounts of poor people and countries to keep that high horse standing tall. Edit: only the first line meant for you Sent. The rest at the forum We did not force our point of view on anyone. Ukraine chose to be an independent country. Russia is denying that right by invading them. Russia has no right to dictate how the society of their neighbor is structured. The same way the USA has no right to bomb middle eastern countries. As long as your argument is that russia got provoked by NATO to attack their neighbor, you are wrong and any argument based on that is wrong. Russia could be a completely happy murderous dictatorship whithout ever worrying about their souvereingity, even if ukraine would be in NATO. If by Ukraine chose you mean a few thousand street thugs in one city stormed administrative buildings and overthew the elected government that 50% of the country supported at molotov point chose to 'be independant' for them. Then yes, unelected officials chose to start a punitive war against their own population that didnt want the unelected far right deciding their future. My argument is that Russia doesn't give a shit anymore because they will the painted as the bad guys whatever they do. So they pressed the red button because you would have said that they pressed it whatever they did. NATO knew full well what was going to happen and they didnt even bat an eye to push the Kiev government to kill off their own country... for what? I am very curious about Putin's endgame, but I don't think it involves anything risking that Ukraine becomes a part of NATO, which could easily happen in a real democracy. Ukraine's domestic political situation seems too complicated for me to understand, but it is an important part of why this is happening. I have seen Ukraine's governmet named as "democratically elected" in several outlets. To which degree is that true?
After Maidan widespread crackdown and banning of opposition political parties as well as financially crippling them for future elections after their unbanning. Ban on any media not in toe with their message, they ramped this up over the last year where Zelensky banned even some pro-EU media that were positive towards his political opponents.
Depends on what you think democratically elected means i guess.
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United States44289 Posts
On February 24 2022 15:17 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 15:15 maybenexttime wrote:On February 24 2022 15:07 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Are you kidding me? USA declares war on Russia, the world ends in a nuclear holocaust. Worst case scenario right there, including for everyone in Ukraine Then don't declare war. Send peacekeeping troops into Ukraine and beat back any invading forces. Impose air superiority on Ukraine's behalf. If Putin is not a madman, it won't escalate into a nuclear war. If he is, it'll spiral into WW3 eventually. Let's not repeat the same mistake we made before WW2. Let's not make the mistakes that led to WWI which led to WWII, either.
There wasn’t really a mistake that led to WW1. Germany emerged late on the European scene and found that its position was far lower than its real power. The only path forward for the German superpower would be a European reset where the other powers created room for it. They were reluctant to do so and so it sought to compel them to.
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United States44289 Posts
On February 24 2022 23:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:06 JimmiC wrote:On February 24 2022 21:32 Rowa wrote:
For those who ask: “Why does Ukraine interest Russia so much ? “
Copied from another site. (Original Source Unknown)
It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population
of over 40 million - more than Poland.
Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);
2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)
Ukraine is an important agricultural country:
1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);
1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;
3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.
Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.
Ukraine is an important industrialised country:
1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;
3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).
Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest of the world. China has pretty large trade with Ukraine oh many of those resources. I wonder if that was talked about in the Recent Chinese Russian talks at the Olympics. China has been careful to walk a line between not condemning but still talking about the importance of sovereignty. I wonder how they will react and if the world not only sanctions Russia, but sanctions people who deal with them. Russia and now with Ukraine is great for raw materials, but compared to western Europe and the US not a great market to sell things too. Wont ever happen, especially sanctioning China. The entire system of Capitalism relies on China and it's engine of cheap expendable labor. The most realist strategy is to try and convince Xi to pressure Russia.
China’s economy has been evolving significantly since the 90s. Much of its goods are made for internal consumers rather than the export market. The cheap labour is elsewhere in SE Asia now with China acting as the external investor and developed market.
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Jesus Christ.... no matter who wins this could be a worldwide disaster solely due the area they are fighting in. I mean they have to be fighting in full MOPP.
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Why would a company spend all that money to relocate though? They'd lose money over doing so, they're amoral beings, unless the government compels companies to leave the Chinese market (which they will never do because the companies compel the government) then companies won't leave a market that generates them lots of money.
We won't even see an attempt to shift away over time because as has been shown, companies dont give a fuck about a long term, they care about their next fiscal quarter and what c-suite jerkoff is going to damage their yearly bonus by almost definitely harming the company's profits for the year?
China’s economy has been evolving significantly since the 90s. Much of its goods are made for internal consumers rather than the export market. The cheap labour is elsewhere in SE Asia now with China acting as the external investor and developed market.
Lot of stuff I saw when I was living in China was made in Malaysia, didn't actually see too much that was marked as made in China while I was there
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On February 25 2022 00:22 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On February 24 2022 23:06 JimmiC wrote:On February 24 2022 21:32 Rowa wrote:
For those who ask: “Why does Ukraine interest Russia so much ? “
Copied from another site. (Original Source Unknown)
It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population
of over 40 million - more than Poland.
Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);
2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)
Ukraine is an important agricultural country:
1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);
1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;
3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.
Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.
Ukraine is an important industrialised country:
1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;
3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).
Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest of the world. China has pretty large trade with Ukraine oh many of those resources. I wonder if that was talked about in the Recent Chinese Russian talks at the Olympics. China has been careful to walk a line between not condemning but still talking about the importance of sovereignty. I wonder how they will react and if the world not only sanctions Russia, but sanctions people who deal with them. Russia and now with Ukraine is great for raw materials, but compared to western Europe and the US not a great market to sell things too. Wont ever happen, especially sanctioning China. The entire system of Capitalism relies on China and it's engine of cheap expendable labor. The most realist strategy is to try and convince Xi to pressure Russia. I don't think it will happen overnight. But the reliance on China has been becoming a greater and greater worry. I could see some sanctions and a lot of companies considering moving their manufacturing to other places with cheap expendable labour. I could also see China pulling back a bit from Russia at least publicly.
Doubt both. Consumers want things cheap and we're already having crazy fast price increase, so increasing prices even more by sanctioning both Russia and China is unthinkable. Unless China invades Taiwan and technically speaking most of the world recognizes Taiwan as their territory, so invasion is a strong word. (OTOH there are 2 carriers with their support in the vicinity I believe so it shouldn't happen)
On February 25 2022 00:32 Zambrah wrote:Why would a company spend all that money to relocate though? They'd lose money over doing so, they're amoral beings, unless the government compels companies to leave the Chinese market (which they will never do because the companies compel the government) then companies won't leave a market that generates them lots of money. We won't even see an attempt to shift away over time because as has been shown, companies dont give a fuck about a long term, they care about their next fiscal quarter and what c-suite jerkoff is going to damage their yearly bonus by almost definitely harming the company's profits for the year? Show nested quote +China’s economy has been evolving significantly since the 90s. Much of its goods are made for internal consumers rather than the export market. The cheap labour is elsewhere in SE Asia now with China acting as the external investor and developed market. Lot of stuff I saw when I was living in China was made in Malaysia, didn't actually see too much that was marked as made in China while I was there
To be fair why would they do anything else? Take clothing comapnies. How many times the big brands were connected to the child labor? And yet they sell all this cheap clothing and nobody cares about how the hell it is so cheap.
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Not to mention the chocolate industry and slave labor, these companies are vile entities and expecting/hoping they do something moral is insanity
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EPT
