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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 25 2022 00:10 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:59 Slydie wrote:On February 24 2022 23:52 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 23:34 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 24 2022 23:09 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 22:44 Sent. wrote:
Hahaha neutral come on man Yes, neutral. Maybe when you are stuck in this echo chamber anything that isnt blindly bowing down to NATO foreign policy and propaganda is perceived as 'against us'. Out in the real World this doesn't hold water. Feel free to dig up my posts from the old Ukraine thread. Saying that Maidan was a bad idea and that it will ruin the country was a big no no here. Letting your country become a poking stick to provoke Russia is a bad thing and will end badly. Obvious totallatarian propaganda. Its been a multi-polar World for some time now. Sticking with idealogical zealotry and forcing your 'right' point of view on everyone else is the reason we are in the mess we are in right now. You are ready to sacrifice xyz amounts of poor people and countries to keep that high horse standing tall. Edit: only the first line meant for you Sent. The rest at the forum We did not force our point of view on anyone. Ukraine chose to be an independent country. Russia is denying that right by invading them. Russia has no right to dictate how the society of their neighbor is structured. The same way the USA has no right to bomb middle eastern countries. As long as your argument is that russia got provoked by NATO to attack their neighbor, you are wrong and any argument based on that is wrong. Russia could be a completely happy murderous dictatorship whithout ever worrying about their souvereingity, even if ukraine would be in NATO. If by Ukraine chose you mean a few thousand street thugs in one city stormed administrative buildings and overthew the elected government that 50% of the country supported at molotov point chose to 'be independant' for them. Then yes, unelected officials chose to start a punitive war against their own population that didnt want the unelected far right deciding their future. My argument is that Russia doesn't give a shit anymore because they will the painted as the bad guys whatever they do. So they pressed the red button because you would have said that they pressed it whatever they did. NATO knew full well what was going to happen and they didnt even bat an eye to push the Kiev government to kill off their own country... for what? I am very curious about Putin's endgame, but I don't think it involves anything risking that Ukraine becomes a part of NATO, which could easily happen in a real democracy. Ukraine's domestic political situation seems too complicated for me to understand, but it is an important part of why this is happening. I have seen Ukraine's governmet named as "democratically elected" in several outlets. To which degree is that true? After Maidan widespread crackdown and banning of opposition political parties as well as financially crippling them for future elections after their unbanning. Ban on any media not in toe with their message, they ramped this up over the last year where Zelensky banned even some pro-EU media that were positive towards his political opponents. Depends on what you think democratically elected means i guess.
Simple question. If you consider the Ukrainian government to be a mob rule that suppresses their poor population, and that justifies an invasion from Russia, should we then invade Russia? Russia, not a democracy. Not a place to criticize your government. Why is having an anti russian government a reason to go to war to?
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On February 25 2022 00:32 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Jesus Christ.... no matter who wins this could be a worldwide disaster solely due the area they are fighting in. I mean they have to be fighting in full MOPP.
The area around Chernobyl is nowhere as radioactive as you seem to think it is. Chernobyl is right next to a major road that is the shortest route from Belarus to Kyiv. If Russia secures that road, we can practically expect to see Russia enter Kyiv in less than a week as Russia now can encircle Kyiv with ease. Or tomorrow we will see Russian flags rise over Kyiv if military resistance in the area is somehow completely shattered.
Funny thing, I happened to live near to an RAF base and under an RAF flightpath when they reallocated it for some godforsaken reason last year. So when I woke up at 2am in the morning under some droning propellers for what I presume are their heavy transport planes, I knew something had happened. No idea what they could possibly be doing though considering the total lack of aid UK is sending.
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I bet S.T.A.L.K.E.R. game communities are full of dark humor about Freedom and Duty factions fighting over the Chernobyl plant right now.
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On February 24 2022 23:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2022 23:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Norway Coastguard, and Police appears to be taking control of a Yacht owned by former KGB associate.
Also Czech Republic has suspended granting Visas to Russian citizens.
Ridiculous to me how individuals' property and freedom can be limited on a whim due to the actions of their native government. It feels like a direct attack on Russian people to apply pressure on the Russian government, which certainly makes sense but doesn't feel very moral or democratic. In a way, it shows how powerless these governments truly are at making any material difference to the actual conflict at hand.
I like Norway's response more than the Czech response in that regard.
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On February 25 2022 00:45 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 00:10 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 23:59 Slydie wrote:On February 24 2022 23:52 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 23:34 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 24 2022 23:09 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 22:44 Sent. wrote:
Hahaha neutral come on man Yes, neutral. Maybe when you are stuck in this echo chamber anything that isnt blindly bowing down to NATO foreign policy and propaganda is perceived as 'against us'. Out in the real World this doesn't hold water. Feel free to dig up my posts from the old Ukraine thread. Saying that Maidan was a bad idea and that it will ruin the country was a big no no here. Letting your country become a poking stick to provoke Russia is a bad thing and will end badly. Obvious totallatarian propaganda. Its been a multi-polar World for some time now. Sticking with idealogical zealotry and forcing your 'right' point of view on everyone else is the reason we are in the mess we are in right now. You are ready to sacrifice xyz amounts of poor people and countries to keep that high horse standing tall. Edit: only the first line meant for you Sent. The rest at the forum We did not force our point of view on anyone. Ukraine chose to be an independent country. Russia is denying that right by invading them. Russia has no right to dictate how the society of their neighbor is structured. The same way the USA has no right to bomb middle eastern countries. As long as your argument is that russia got provoked by NATO to attack their neighbor, you are wrong and any argument based on that is wrong. Russia could be a completely happy murderous dictatorship whithout ever worrying about their souvereingity, even if ukraine would be in NATO. If by Ukraine chose you mean a few thousand street thugs in one city stormed administrative buildings and overthew the elected government that 50% of the country supported at molotov point chose to 'be independant' for them. Then yes, unelected officials chose to start a punitive war against their own population that didnt want the unelected far right deciding their future. My argument is that Russia doesn't give a shit anymore because they will the painted as the bad guys whatever they do. So they pressed the red button because you would have said that they pressed it whatever they did. NATO knew full well what was going to happen and they didnt even bat an eye to push the Kiev government to kill off their own country... for what? I am very curious about Putin's endgame, but I don't think it involves anything risking that Ukraine becomes a part of NATO, which could easily happen in a real democracy. Ukraine's domestic political situation seems too complicated for me to understand, but it is an important part of why this is happening. I have seen Ukraine's governmet named as "democratically elected" in several outlets. To which degree is that true? After Maidan widespread crackdown and banning of opposition political parties as well as financially crippling them for future elections after their unbanning. Ban on any media not in toe with their message, they ramped this up over the last year where Zelensky banned even some pro-EU media that were positive towards his political opponents. Depends on what you think democratically elected means i guess. Simple question. If you consider the Ukrainian government to be a mob rule that suppresses their poor population, and that justifies an invasion from Russia, should we then invade Russia? Russia, not a democracy. Not a place to criticize your government. Why is having an anti russian government a reason to go to war to?
Thats an interesting way to interprate what i wrote... A mob overthrew the legitimate government and banned/oppresed all opposition to their point of view. Some here seem to have a romanticised view of the politics and ambitions of Kievs ruling class, yet fail to see that political methods and life in Kiev is very very close to the political climate in Moscow. Or should I say their 'methods' are the same.
So you have two sides of the same coin yet one is unconditionally 'our guy'. Why are they your guy and what do you really know about the situation?. Its clear now that we are exiting the post-cold war era and entering a new one, a very unknown one and previous child like tantruming about moral highground and your point of view at any cost now has very real repercutions.
Its time to think about why things are the way that they are and what can be learned from this.
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No. Even if Ukraine is an autocratic dystopia as bad as Russia right now, Russia is still attacking that country. And you seem okay with that. Your argument was that "turning Ukraine into a poking stick towards Russia" was a bad idea and this is the reason Vlad is invading now. So, apparently being an independent nation next to Russia is a valid Casus Belli now.
And Ukraine is not our guy. They are a guy. That is being invaded by your guy.
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On February 25 2022 00:48 Dangermousecatdog wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The area around Chernobyl is nowhere as radioactive as you seem to think it is. Chernobyl is right next to a major road that is the shortest route from Belarus to Kyiv. If Russia secures that road, we can practically expect to see Russia enter Kyiv in less than a week as Russia now can encircle Kyiv with ease. Or tomorrow we will see Russian flags rise over Kyiv if military resistance in the area is somehow completely shattered. Funny thing, I happened to live near to an RAF base and under an RAF flightpath when they reallocated it for some godforsaken reason last year. So when I woke up at 2am in the morning under some droning propellers for what I presume are their heavy transport planes, I knew something had happened. No idea what they could possibly be doing though considering the total lack of aid UK is sending.
There should be army helicopter exercises again where i live this week, but it's silent. I guess NATO is at least preparing the NRF to be sent to the eastern partner countries. I hope they are already on their way, we need to draw a line here.
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On February 25 2022 01:19 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 00:45 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 25 2022 00:10 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 23:59 Slydie wrote:On February 24 2022 23:52 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 23:34 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 24 2022 23:09 zeo wrote:On February 24 2022 22:44 Sent. wrote:
Hahaha neutral come on man Yes, neutral. Maybe when you are stuck in this echo chamber anything that isnt blindly bowing down to NATO foreign policy and propaganda is perceived as 'against us'. Out in the real World this doesn't hold water. Feel free to dig up my posts from the old Ukraine thread. Saying that Maidan was a bad idea and that it will ruin the country was a big no no here. Letting your country become a poking stick to provoke Russia is a bad thing and will end badly. Obvious totallatarian propaganda. Its been a multi-polar World for some time now. Sticking with idealogical zealotry and forcing your 'right' point of view on everyone else is the reason we are in the mess we are in right now. You are ready to sacrifice xyz amounts of poor people and countries to keep that high horse standing tall. Edit: only the first line meant for you Sent. The rest at the forum We did not force our point of view on anyone. Ukraine chose to be an independent country. Russia is denying that right by invading them. Russia has no right to dictate how the society of their neighbor is structured. The same way the USA has no right to bomb middle eastern countries. As long as your argument is that russia got provoked by NATO to attack their neighbor, you are wrong and any argument based on that is wrong. Russia could be a completely happy murderous dictatorship whithout ever worrying about their souvereingity, even if ukraine would be in NATO. If by Ukraine chose you mean a few thousand street thugs in one city stormed administrative buildings and overthew the elected government that 50% of the country supported at molotov point chose to 'be independant' for them. Then yes, unelected officials chose to start a punitive war against their own population that didnt want the unelected far right deciding their future. My argument is that Russia doesn't give a shit anymore because they will the painted as the bad guys whatever they do. So they pressed the red button because you would have said that they pressed it whatever they did. NATO knew full well what was going to happen and they didnt even bat an eye to push the Kiev government to kill off their own country... for what? I am very curious about Putin's endgame, but I don't think it involves anything risking that Ukraine becomes a part of NATO, which could easily happen in a real democracy. Ukraine's domestic political situation seems too complicated for me to understand, but it is an important part of why this is happening. I have seen Ukraine's governmet named as "democratically elected" in several outlets. To which degree is that true? After Maidan widespread crackdown and banning of opposition political parties as well as financially crippling them for future elections after their unbanning. Ban on any media not in toe with their message, they ramped this up over the last year where Zelensky banned even some pro-EU media that were positive towards his political opponents. Depends on what you think democratically elected means i guess. Simple question. If you consider the Ukrainian government to be a mob rule that suppresses their poor population, and that justifies an invasion from Russia, should we then invade Russia? Russia, not a democracy. Not a place to criticize your government. Why is having an anti russian government a reason to go to war to? Thats an interesting way to interprate what i wrote... A mob overthrew the legitimate government and banned/oppresed all opposition to their point of view. Some here seem to have a romanticised view of the politics and ambitions of Kievs ruling class, yet fail to see that political methods and life in Kiev is very very close to the political climate in Moscow. Or should I say their 'methods' are the same. So you have two sides of the same coin yet one is unconditionally 'our guy'. Why are they your guy and what do you really know about the situation?. Its clear now that we are exiting the post-cold war era and entering a new one, a very unknown one and previous child like tantruming about moral highground and your point of view at any cost now has very real repercutions. Its time to think about why things are the way that they are and what can be learned from this.
If we take it that a mob rule overthrew the government and put up their own faux government in place as a fact, i still don't see how it warrants Russian actions? How is the internal turmoil, and whatever regime change, of a neighboring country justification for armed conflict?
Our old common country had inner turmoil and i don't remember any of our neighbors coming in with force to legitimate or illegitimate anything.
E moj druže Beogradski, hope this situation won't reflect at us beyond certain prices being high(gas, certain foods,...)
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On February 25 2022 01:29 Broetchenholer wrote:
No. Even if Ukraine is an autocratic dystopia as bad as Russia right now, Russia is still attacking that country. And you seem okay with that. Your argument was that "turning Ukraine into a poking stick towards Russia" was a bad idea and this is the reason Vlad is invading now. So, apparently being an independent nation next to Russia is a valid Casus Belli now.
And Ukraine is not our guy. They are a guy. That is being invaded by your guy.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt the first time, maybe you were unintentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting my words. But this is just low effort.
Up until yesterday Russia was one one the few big countries that actually followed international law. Not because they are the good guys, but because they didnt have the free 'do what you want' cards NATO countries got.
Now its all gone to shit. The only guy I have in all of this is my own country. Which I hope doesnt get dragged into the pot of shit the whole lot of you stirred up
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Romania9144 Posts
On February 25 2022 00:32 Zambrah wrote:Why would a company spend all that money to relocate though? They'd lose money over doing so, they're amoral beings, unless the government compels companies to leave the Chinese market (which they will never do because the companies compel the government) then companies won't leave a market that generates them lots of money. We won't even see an attempt to shift away over time because as has been shown, companies dont give a fuck about a long term, they care about their next fiscal quarter and what c-suite jerkoff is going to damage their yearly bonus by almost definitely harming the company's profits for the year? Show nested quote +China’s economy has been evolving significantly since the 90s. Much of its goods are made for internal consumers rather than the export market. The cheap labour is elsewhere in SE Asia now with China acting as the external investor and developed market. Lot of stuff I saw when I was living in China was made in Malaysia, didn't actually see too much that was marked as made in China while I was there
They have no choice, you're ignoring the effect of all those years of record economic growth. Kwark is correct, using China as the world's manufacturer from 1990s to 2010s skyrocketed their development which in turn skyrocketed their median wages and more importantly, their median age. They went from a median age of low 20s to 40, that means a shrinking workforce with significantly higher demands that has to soon support an unprecedented number of pensioners. The days of them being the cheap well-trained surplus labor of the global economy that serves as a deflationary force are on its last legs, what this will mean for the rest of us is pretty much the greatest debate among economists right now.
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On February 25 2022 01:52 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 01:29 Broetchenholer wrote:
No. Even if Ukraine is an autocratic dystopia as bad as Russia right now, Russia is still attacking that country. And you seem okay with that. Your argument was that "turning Ukraine into a poking stick towards Russia" was a bad idea and this is the reason Vlad is invading now. So, apparently being an independent nation next to Russia is a valid Casus Belli now.
And Ukraine is not our guy. They are a guy. That is being invaded by your guy. I gave you the benefit of the doubt the first time, maybe you were unintentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting my words. But this is just low effort. Up until yesterday Russia was one one the few big countries that actually followed international law. Not because they are the good guys, but because they didnt have the free 'do what you want' cards NATO countries got. Now its all gone to shit. The only guy I have in all of this is my own country. Which I hope doesnt get dragged into the pot of shit the whole lot of you stirred up
Can you explain to me how Russia was the only one following international law while they invaded crimea and kept on sending armed forces to destabilize the region ?
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I'm thinking to apply for refugee status for my kid/wife so they could be safe, but not sure how and where to look for, worried for them
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On February 25 2022 02:14 Dav1oN wrote:
I'm thinking to apply for refugee status for my kid/wife so they could be safe, but not sure how and where to look for, worried for them
I believe it was Romania who said they are ready to take 500,000 refugees. Best of luck to you and your family.
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On February 25 2022 02:11 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 01:52 zeo wrote:On February 25 2022 01:29 Broetchenholer wrote:
No. Even if Ukraine is an autocratic dystopia as bad as Russia right now, Russia is still attacking that country. And you seem okay with that. Your argument was that "turning Ukraine into a poking stick towards Russia" was a bad idea and this is the reason Vlad is invading now. So, apparently being an independent nation next to Russia is a valid Casus Belli now.
And Ukraine is not our guy. They are a guy. That is being invaded by your guy. I gave you the benefit of the doubt the first time, maybe you were unintentionally misunderstanding and misrepresenting my words. But this is just low effort. Up until yesterday Russia was one one the few big countries that actually followed international law. Not because they are the good guys, but because they didnt have the free 'do what you want' cards NATO countries got. Now its all gone to shit. The only guy I have in all of this is my own country. Which I hope doesnt get dragged into the pot of shit the whole lot of you stirred up Can you explain to me how Russia was the only one following international law while they invaded crimea and kept on sending armed forces to destabilize the region ?
"Up until yesterday" helps their claim but is still not really true because Russia was in Syria, Afghanistan, and other such places. I think the point was that much of the* UN was in Iraq, USA in Afghanistan until 2021, they have boats circling in Korean waters and by Taiwan, etc. This is whataboutism but it's still true.
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@Dav1oN
Poland is also an option. I heard the roads to border crossings are packed with people fleeing, though.
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On February 25 2022 02:05 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 00:32 Zambrah wrote:Why would a company spend all that money to relocate though? They'd lose money over doing so, they're amoral beings, unless the government compels companies to leave the Chinese market (which they will never do because the companies compel the government) then companies won't leave a market that generates them lots of money. We won't even see an attempt to shift away over time because as has been shown, companies dont give a fuck about a long term, they care about their next fiscal quarter and what c-suite jerkoff is going to damage their yearly bonus by almost definitely harming the company's profits for the year? China’s economy has been evolving significantly since the 90s. Much of its goods are made for internal consumers rather than the export market. The cheap labour is elsewhere in SE Asia now with China acting as the external investor and developed market. Lot of stuff I saw when I was living in China was made in Malaysia, didn't actually see too much that was marked as made in China while I was there They have no choice, you're ignoring the effect of all those years of record economic growth. Kwark is correct, using China as the world's manufacturer from 1990s to 2010s skyrocketed their development which in turn skyrocketed their median wages and more importantly, their median age. They went from a median age of low 20s to 40, that means a shrinking workforce with significantly higher demands that has to soon support an unprecedented number of pensioners. The days of them being the cheap well-trained surplus labor of the global economy that serves as a deflationary force are on its last legs, what this will mean for the rest of us is pretty much the greatest debate among economists right now.
China is not exclusively a company about manufacturing, they're a colossal market for all sorts of things, you can't convince companies to just abandon being able to hock their shit to China because China has lots of people and lots of money and a lot of very consumerist culture that makes them a super lucrative market.
They will absolutely not tone down economic involvement with China so long as China is such a large and profitable market, theres no point to hoping for or expecting it, especially for something so paltry as morality, morality doesn't make companies money.
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Putin has met with Business leaders. No idea how to read into this. Seeing how the Russian stock market crashed around 50% yesterday before the invasion. Almost like he is telling them he is watching them.
Russian equities fell the most on record on Thursday, erasing more than $150 billion in value, after President Vladimir Putin ordered an operation to “demilitarize” Ukraine and targets were attacked across the country. The benchmark MOEX Russia Index is down about 50% from its October record high and along with the dollar-denominated RTS is the worst-performing stock market globally this year. The news of the invasion fueled a hunt for safe havens, with investors fleeing equities around the world.
Source
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On February 25 2022 02:20 Silvanel wrote:
@Dav1oN
Poland is also an option. I heard the roads to border crossings are packed with people fleeing, though.
Yea, all roads to the western border are packed, plus the problem is that I don't have a car for use atm. Air is closed, the sea is blocked, and to the western border it takes like a day by train (will check if the railway available)
On February 25 2022 02:16 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 02:14 Dav1oN wrote:
I'm thinking to apply for refugee status for my kid/wife so they could be safe, but not sure how and where to look for, worried for them I believe it was Romania who said they are ready to take 500,000 refugees. Best of luck to you and your family.
Thank you for your support!
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Romania9144 Posts
On February 25 2022 02:21 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2022 02:05 Dan HH wrote:On February 25 2022 00:32 Zambrah wrote:Why would a company spend all that money to relocate though? They'd lose money over doing so, they're amoral beings, unless the government compels companies to leave the Chinese market (which they will never do because the companies compel the government) then companies won't leave a market that generates them lots of money. We won't even see an attempt to shift away over time because as has been shown, companies dont give a fuck about a long term, they care about their next fiscal quarter and what c-suite jerkoff is going to damage their yearly bonus by almost definitely harming the company's profits for the year? China’s economy has been evolving significantly since the 90s. Much of its goods are made for internal consumers rather than the export market. The cheap labour is elsewhere in SE Asia now with China acting as the external investor and developed market. Lot of stuff I saw when I was living in China was made in Malaysia, didn't actually see too much that was marked as made in China while I was there They have no choice, you're ignoring the effect of all those years of record economic growth. Kwark is correct, using China as the world's manufacturer from 1990s to 2010s skyrocketed their development which in turn skyrocketed their median wages and more importantly, their median age. They went from a median age of low 20s to 40, that means a shrinking workforce with significantly higher demands that has to soon support an unprecedented number of pensioners. The days of them being the cheap well-trained surplus labor of the global economy that serves as a deflationary force are on its last legs, what this will mean for the rest of us is pretty much the greatest debate among economists right now. China is not exclusively a company about manufacturing, they're a colossal market for all sorts of things, you can't convince companies to just abandon being able to hock their shit to China because China has lots of people and lots of money and a lot of very consumerist culture that makes them a super lucrative market. They will absolutely not tone down economic involvement with China so long as China is such a large and profitable market, theres no point to hoping for or expecting it, especially for something so paltry as morality, morality doesn't make companies money.
I read your comment as being in agreement with StealthBlue's cheap expendable labor take. If you meant more general ties with their market, absolutely. If anything, China being the fastest growing import market of western goods and services gives them more leverage. We already saw that with Lithuania earlier this year, they ended up paying half a billion for writing Taiwan on a building.
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EPT
