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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
The field of anthropology with regards to human origin changes constantly, sometimes even week to week. There always seem to be some new discovery that overthrows previous ideas. There are much debate. "Great apes" themselves has been defined and redefined upteen times and currently "hominid" and "great apes" are the one and the same and its probably outdated and not useful in regards to human origin. We are not descedents of Hominid, we are part of the hominid family. But tomorrow, who knows how classification will change. Sometimes several classifications exist in biological orthodoxy at the same time.
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On July 22 2020 01:36 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 00:26 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 21 2020 23:55 stilt wrote:On July 21 2020 20:39 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:On July 21 2020 16:31 Broetchenholer wrote:
What are you even talking about? Auschwitz is not rooted in western society. You did it again, throwing something in a conversation it has nothing to do with. There have been zero repeats of Auschwitz since it has happened. Not in western culture nor in any other. It is, to this day, the one worst thing our species has done and it has zero to do with cultural imperialism. So stop it.
On the rest, yeah, of course you would cling to the anecdote. That France has been trying harder then other countries to enshrine their past culture and resist outside influence is well known, at least compared to Germany. We did not have quotas for German songs in the radio for example. This however, is like trying to turn back time. So you also want to go back to the time, where everybody listens to classical music? Which arbitrary time in the past do you want to mimic?
And just to get this straight, I have absolutely no beef with the French, my encounters with a few of them were unpleasant and showed a pattern but were way too few to generalize from it. I just believe that sentences like the French culture is absorbed is fucking stupid. It's like saying my air is being polluted, as if your air was somehow seperate from the rest of the air and had special qualities to it. And it's also implying that your air is more precious then the rest and you get to decide who gets to change that air and who does not. Zero repeat ? Then why the numerous comparaisons with the gulags or the ouighour camps ? You just invented totalitarism bs to separate from it, the "worst" of our specie doesn't come from nowhere, it has a cultural and political legacy. You conveniently dismiss my points on middle east us policies x) Because these comparisons are wrong. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
For god sake, the cold rationality of this factory of death is a creation of a racial capitalism ideology which can only come from protestant countries who are dominating the West with a burning hatred for everything that is not you just like when you gloat when you assert western cultural dominance.
Nazi Germany was not protestant. Gulags and Uighur detention center also do not center around Protestantism. France is not protestant, how does that factor in your western cultural dominance? Do you actually believe that France is a victim of western cultural dominance because it is not protestant? Or do you believe that France is part of the Western European dominance exported into the world? Hatred is not bound to religion. Each religion in the world has create massacres when they had the chance, so have atheist communities. This is not a western European, or German or protestant or Christian issue. It's a human issue. If you are ranting against western European/American culture being evil and culminating in Auschwitz and racial capitalism and then claim that France is a victim of that culture, then you are claiming that France has not contributed to racial capitalism, cannot be responsible for it and is different or better than the rest. I don’t know how else to read this. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
I want to mimic a time when we don't build aceptised temple to the glory of consumerism like Disneyland Paris neither watch propaganda from Hollywood or the mind-numbing reality shows. And even better, I would freaking love to go back to the time when social struggle was priveleged rather than the identitary/racial wars proposed by the western media and intelligentia which is matrice of racism and hatred between people who have interests to be united. In the end, indeed I cherish the times when people were struggling to conquest social rights rather than struggling to maintain them, the left is necessary conservative now as the new trend is the destruction of what has been accomplished.
Your air is poisonous then, and don't transform my words : I never said my culture was the best, I say it is way better than current western's one just like any others, I don't do comparaison with Russian, persan's ones or any others. Your post, for me, is so over the place, it’s really hard to even try to understand what you stand for. For example, now you say you want people to be united and racism and hatred to be a problem. But you want to be so little united, that “your culture” is not being changed. Do you not recognize, that allowing social currents from outside of your community to merge with your own culture creates more united people, less racism, less hatred? You have the option to go to Disneyworld or read a fine book of French classicism. Nobody forces you to eat McDonalds and listen to Kanye West. And if in 50 years some aspect of culture you consider French is not practiced anymore, people did not need it as much as you thought. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
Your air is poisonous then, and don't transform my words : I never said my culture was the best, I say it is way better than current western's one just like any others, I don't do comparaison with Russian, persan's ones or any others.
Oh, okay, just better than “western” culture. So you dislike the spreading of inferior culture to your place. You don’t think France is part of Western Culture, which is Auschwitz, but other cultures you cannot name are on the same level as yours. That makes perfect sense. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
Edit : contrary to what you seem to think, my love for my country is rather motivated by a sense of duty rather than egocentric pride and some fetish of the past as I see it at the only source of social rights and real power of the people. (I don't like the term democracy, it is just expired nowadays) Help me here. Duty to the country is the only source of social rights and real power of the people? I might be wrong, it’s really hard for me to read that. I help you there, the nation is the basis of social rights, sorry if you don't understand the liberal philantropists and ngo are not. France is indeed not a protestant country who created entairtainent industry so it is not at the origin a western country like it is now, sorry if you understand it, its social core was not identity wars. You seem to think the West is a monolith who never changed. Entertainement industry is diffused from all medias by the great superpower of the world, sorry again if you don't undertand it, it is not a choice but an alienation, I bet even some german philosophers spoke about it in 60s... Liberal western socities are based on identity wars by the prism of various communities, this is sort of a racial, religious war totally instrumentalyzed in order to prevent both social struggle and the state to be too powerful, I don't think my point is this hard to understand either. I have tried understanding what your point is, and i have several times said, what parts of your post i interpret in what way. As far as i am interpreting you, you are unhappy with the US passively influencing your countries culture in a way you don't like. And you believe that everyones culture except four yours, Irans and Russias, will result in Auschwitz. And the reason for that is protestantism. Even though the french have shown many times that when in a position of power, they are more then capable of murdering people for monetary gain themselves, up to the second half of the last century. So, dislike american society and influence if you want, but if you are then conflating it into a crazy protestant imperialist Auschwitz against France, i call bullshit on you. And maybe also accept that people read your position as highly nationalist, because your assumption on what differentiates between good culture and bad culture seems to come down to: is it French or not. You have very serious reading comprehension difficulties indeed. I only say western culture is bad, unless you don't know there are other cultures that the ones I illustrate (indians, arabs, africans ones, in short every others, I really must give you an exhaustive list for you to get it ?) giving your pro western stance, I guess it is the case as nothing exists (or is legitimate) outside your political bubble, that's my main point actually, no need to add more to this as it leads to nowhere.
I don't quite understand how a culture can be bad. That makes zero sense to me. Culture as a concept is ridiculously broad and encompasses way too much to allow for an intelligent value judgement.
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On July 22 2020 01:41 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
I saw the thread hauling ass and I figured I should pop in and see what kind of opinions people had on arguably the biggest economical and political package the EU has ever passed (after a marathon session of intense negotiations). Given the polarising opinions on it I figured that could have taken a bit to chew through.
Instead the discussion have been several pages about semantics and one of the truly ancient TL posters is now apparently permabanned.
I'm just summarising this for context and an outside perspective so feel free to carry on.
I don't think most people actually know enough of the details yet to have an opinion of the result of 4 1/2 days of negotiation, other than maybe admiration that they actually managed to reach an agreement at the the end. If you're pro-Europe you are probably relieved that they managed. If you're anti-Europe you're probably regretting that Macron just slapped the table instead of slapping Rutte.
But overall, I find it very hard to have an opinion on the package itself. I'm glad they reached an agreement, and being fluent in both Dutch and Spanish I find it fun to read how both governments are selling it as a win. It's probably also a good thing that they can both go home and sell it as that win: nobody got quite what they wanted, but they probably all got enough. The main thing I do regret is that I think Costa had a good point (even if he brought it up way too late) and the whole thing about withholding money from countries undermining the rule of law: by mixing the rule of law into this, they have made it negotiable, and thus susceptible to erosion in favour of money.
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On July 21 2020 16:31 Broetchenholer wrote:
What are you even talking about? Auschwitz is not rooted in western society. You did it again, throwing something in a conversation it has nothing to do with. There have been zero repeats of Auschwitz since it has happened. Not in western culture nor in any other. It is, to this day, the one worst thing our species has done and it has zero to do with cultural imperialism. So stop it.
On the rest, yeah, of course you would cling to the anecdote. That France has been trying harder then other countries to enshrine their past culture and resist outside influence is well known, at least compared to Germany. We did not have quotas for German songs in the radio for example. This however, is like trying to turn back time. So you also want to go back to the time, where everybody listens to classical music? Which arbitrary time in the past do you want to mimic?
And just to get this straight, I have absolutely no beef with the French, my encounters with a few of them were unpleasant and showed a pattern but were way too few to generalize from it. I just believe that sentences like the French culture is absorbed is fucking stupid. It's like saying my air is being polluted, as if your air was somehow seperate from the rest of the air and had special qualities to it. And it's also implying that your air is more precious then the rest and you get to decide who gets to change that air and who does not.
We found shipments of humans hairs coming from China and their camps for ughyurs. Or the organs "donations" taken from the same prisoners ?
Not arguing with your original point, but theres clearly one nation doing it again.
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On July 22 2020 01:36 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 00:26 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 21 2020 23:55 stilt wrote:On July 21 2020 20:39 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:On July 21 2020 16:31 Broetchenholer wrote:
What are you even talking about? Auschwitz is not rooted in western society. You did it again, throwing something in a conversation it has nothing to do with. There have been zero repeats of Auschwitz since it has happened. Not in western culture nor in any other. It is, to this day, the one worst thing our species has done and it has zero to do with cultural imperialism. So stop it.
On the rest, yeah, of course you would cling to the anecdote. That France has been trying harder then other countries to enshrine their past culture and resist outside influence is well known, at least compared to Germany. We did not have quotas for German songs in the radio for example. This however, is like trying to turn back time. So you also want to go back to the time, where everybody listens to classical music? Which arbitrary time in the past do you want to mimic?
And just to get this straight, I have absolutely no beef with the French, my encounters with a few of them were unpleasant and showed a pattern but were way too few to generalize from it. I just believe that sentences like the French culture is absorbed is fucking stupid. It's like saying my air is being polluted, as if your air was somehow seperate from the rest of the air and had special qualities to it. And it's also implying that your air is more precious then the rest and you get to decide who gets to change that air and who does not. Zero repeat ? Then why the numerous comparaisons with the gulags or the ouighour camps ? You just invented totalitarism bs to separate from it, the "worst" of our specie doesn't come from nowhere, it has a cultural and political legacy. You conveniently dismiss my points on middle east us policies x) Because these comparisons are wrong. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
For god sake, the cold rationality of this factory of death is a creation of a racial capitalism ideology which can only come from protestant countries who are dominating the West with a burning hatred for everything that is not you just like when you gloat when you assert western cultural dominance.
Nazi Germany was not protestant. Gulags and Uighur detention center also do not center around Protestantism. France is not protestant, how does that factor in your western cultural dominance? Do you actually believe that France is a victim of western cultural dominance because it is not protestant? Or do you believe that France is part of the Western European dominance exported into the world? Hatred is not bound to religion. Each religion in the world has create massacres when they had the chance, so have atheist communities. This is not a western European, or German or protestant or Christian issue. It's a human issue. If you are ranting against western European/American culture being evil and culminating in Auschwitz and racial capitalism and then claim that France is a victim of that culture, then you are claiming that France has not contributed to racial capitalism, cannot be responsible for it and is different or better than the rest. I don’t know how else to read this. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
I want to mimic a time when we don't build aceptised temple to the glory of consumerism like Disneyland Paris neither watch propaganda from Hollywood or the mind-numbing reality shows. And even better, I would freaking love to go back to the time when social struggle was priveleged rather than the identitary/racial wars proposed by the western media and intelligentia which is matrice of racism and hatred between people who have interests to be united. In the end, indeed I cherish the times when people were struggling to conquest social rights rather than struggling to maintain them, the left is necessary conservative now as the new trend is the destruction of what has been accomplished.
Your air is poisonous then, and don't transform my words : I never said my culture was the best, I say it is way better than current western's one just like any others, I don't do comparaison with Russian, persan's ones or any others. Your post, for me, is so over the place, it’s really hard to even try to understand what you stand for. For example, now you say you want people to be united and racism and hatred to be a problem. But you want to be so little united, that “your culture” is not being changed. Do you not recognize, that allowing social currents from outside of your community to merge with your own culture creates more united people, less racism, less hatred? You have the option to go to Disneyworld or read a fine book of French classicism. Nobody forces you to eat McDonalds and listen to Kanye West. And if in 50 years some aspect of culture you consider French is not practiced anymore, people did not need it as much as you thought. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
Your air is poisonous then, and don't transform my words : I never said my culture was the best, I say it is way better than current western's one just like any others, I don't do comparaison with Russian, persan's ones or any others.
Oh, okay, just better than “western” culture. So you dislike the spreading of inferior culture to your place. You don’t think France is part of Western Culture, which is Auschwitz, but other cultures you cannot name are on the same level as yours. That makes perfect sense. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
Edit : contrary to what you seem to think, my love for my country is rather motivated by a sense of duty rather than egocentric pride and some fetish of the past as I see it at the only source of social rights and real power of the people. (I don't like the term democracy, it is just expired nowadays) Help me here. Duty to the country is the only source of social rights and real power of the people? I might be wrong, it’s really hard for me to read that. I help you there, the nation is the basis of social rights, sorry if you don't understand the liberal philantropists and ngo are not. France is indeed not a protestant country who created entairtainent industry so it is not at the origin a western country like it is now, sorry if you understand it, its social core was not identity wars. You seem to think the West is a monolith who never changed. Entertainement industry is diffused from all medias by the great superpower of the world, sorry again if you don't undertand it, it is not a choice but an alienation, I bet even some german philosophers spoke about it in 60s... Liberal western socities are based on identity wars by the prism of various communities, this is sort of a racial, religious war totally instrumentalyzed in order to prevent both social struggle and the state to be too powerful, I don't think my point is this hard to understand either. I have tried understanding what your point is, and i have several times said, what parts of your post i interpret in what way. As far as i am interpreting you, you are unhappy with the US passively influencing your countries culture in a way you don't like. And you believe that everyones culture except four yours, Irans and Russias, will result in Auschwitz. And the reason for that is protestantism. Even though the french have shown many times that when in a position of power, they are more then capable of murdering people for monetary gain themselves, up to the second half of the last century. So, dislike american society and influence if you want, but if you are then conflating it into a crazy protestant imperialist Auschwitz against France, i call bullshit on you. And maybe also accept that people read your position as highly nationalist, because your assumption on what differentiates between good culture and bad culture seems to come down to: is it French or not. You have very serious reading comprehension difficulties indeed. I only say western culture is bad, unless you don't know there are other cultures that the ones I illustrate (indians, arabs, africans ones, in short every others, I really must give you an exhaustive list for you to get it ?) giving your pro western stance, I guess it is the case as nothing exists (or is legitimate) outside your political bubble, that's my main point actually, no need to add more to this as it leads to nowhere.
Could somebody please step in and explain his thought to me in a way i can understand? If i am triggered and angry and don't get the point he is making, i am willing to let a neutral person explain. The way i understand it, western culture is bad and inevitably leads to something he calls identity wars, which is a thing, but not the thing he seems to mention. For some reason he believes that french culture is very distinct from western culture. Western culture to him is Auschwitz and hollywood, the connection they have is very unclear to me. And for some reason, protestantism plays a part in it. And all of that is causing france to suck, because people are not fighting for their social liberties anymore.
Please someone explain it.
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On July 22 2020 01:49 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 01:41 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
I saw the thread hauling ass and I figured I should pop in and see what kind of opinions people had on arguably the biggest economical and political package the EU has ever passed (after a marathon session of intense negotiations). Given the polarising opinions on it I figured that could have taken a bit to chew through.
Instead the discussion have been several pages about semantics and one of the truly ancient TL posters is now apparently permabanned.
I'm just summarising this for context and an outside perspective so feel free to carry on. I don't think most people actually know enough of the details yet to have an opinion of the result of 4 1/2 days of negotiation, other than maybe admiration that they actually managed to reach an agreement at the the end. If you're pro-Europe you are probably relieved that they managed. If you're anti-Europe you're probably regretting that Macron just slapped the table instead of slapping Rutte. But overall, I find it very hard to have an opinion on the package itself. I'm glad they reached an agreement, and being fluent in both Dutch and Spanish I find it fun to read how both governments are selling it as a win. It's probably also a good thing that they can both go home and sell it as that win: nobody got quite what they wanted, but they probably all got enough. The main thing I do regret is that I think Costa had a good point (even if he brought it up way too late) and the whole thing about withholding money from countries undermining the rule of law: by mixing the rule of law into this, they have made it negotiable, and thus susceptible to erosion in favour of money. It also, once again, exposes that the EU lacks a way to deal with countries that are moving away from its values and member states that no longer meet the requirements to even join if they were not already inside.
Its a problem the EU is going to have to solve at some point or stuff like this 'rule of law' provision is going to show up at every negotiation.
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On July 22 2020 01:21 Velr wrote:
If we would be descendant from diffrent great/ancestor apes, this wouldn't even be an argument, there would be big diffrences in the DNA, not the small ones we got.
If we mixed for millenia long it also doesn't matter anymore. define big.
currently(and most talked about) you have the chimpanzee/african ape theory and the second orangutan theory. the former is the most accepted one but the later has (overall)more evidence to back it up.
en excerpt: Our analyses support the following hypotheses: (1) the living large-bodied hominoids represent a monophyletic group comprising two sister clades: humans + orangutans, and chimpanzees (including bonobos) + gorillas (collectively, the African apes); and (2) the human–orangutan clade (dental hominoids) includes fossil hominids (Homo, australopiths, Orrorin) and the Miocene-age apes Hispanopithecus, Ouranopithecus, Ankarapithecus, Sivapithecus, Lufengpithecus, Khoratpithecus and Gigantopithecus (also Plio-Pleistocene of eastern Asia). We also demonstrate that the distributions of living and fossil genera are largely vicariant, with nodes of geographical overlap or proximity between Gigantopithecus and Sivapithecus in Central Asia, and between Pongo, Gigantopithecus, Lufengpithecus and Khoratpithecus in East Asia. The main massing is represented by five genera and eight species in East Asia. The dental hominoid track is spatially correlated with the East African Rift System (EARS) and the Tethys Orogenic Collage (TOC). Main conclusions Humans and orangutans share a common ancestor that excludes the extant African apes. Molecular analyses are compromised by phenetic procedures such as alignment and are probably based on primitive retentions. We infer that the human–orangutan common ancestor had established a widespread distribution by at least 13 Ma. Vicariant differentiation resulted in the ancestors of hominids in East Africa and various primarily Miocene apes distributed between Spain and Southeast Asia (and possibly also parts of East Africa). The geographical disjunction between early hominids and Asian Pongo is attributed to local extinctions between Europe and Central Asia. stuff is interesting and it's openly debated.
+ Show Spoiler +Abstract Aim To resolve the phylogeny of humans and their fossil relatives (collectively, hominids), orangutans (Pongo) and various Miocene great apes and to present a biogeographical model for their differentiation in space and time. Location Africa, northern Mediterranean, Asia. Methods Maximum parsimony analysis was used to assess phylogenetic relationships among living large-bodied hominoids (= humans, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, orangutans), and various related African, Asian and European ape fossils. Biogeographical characteristics were analysed for vicariant replacement, main massings and nodes. A geomorphological correlation was identified for a clade we refer to as the ‘dental hominoids’, and this correlation was used to reconstruct their historical geography. Results Our analyses support the following hypotheses: (1) the living large-bodied hominoids represent a monophyletic group comprising two sister clades: humans + orangutans, and chimpanzees (including bonobos) + gorillas (collectively, the African apes); and (2) the human–orangutan clade (dental hominoids) includes fossil hominids (Homo, australopiths, Orrorin) and the Miocene-age apes Hispanopithecus, Ouranopithecus, Ankarapithecus, Sivapithecus, Lufengpithecus, Khoratpithecus and Gigantopithecus (also Plio-Pleistocene of eastern Asia). We also demonstrate that the distributions of living and fossil genera are largely vicariant, with nodes of geographical overlap or proximity between Gigantopithecus and Sivapithecus in Central Asia, and between Pongo, Gigantopithecus, Lufengpithecus and Khoratpithecus in East Asia. The main massing is represented by five genera and eight species in East Asia. The dental hominoid track is spatially correlated with the East African Rift System (EARS) and the Tethys Orogenic Collage (TOC). Main conclusions Humans and orangutans share a common ancestor that excludes the extant African apes. Molecular analyses are compromised by phenetic procedures such as alignment and are probably based on primitive retentions. We infer that the human–orangutan common ancestor had established a widespread distribution by at least 13 Ma. Vicariant differentiation resulted in the ancestors of hominids in East Africa and various primarily Miocene apes distributed between Spain and Southeast Asia (and possibly also parts of East Africa). The geographical disjunction between early hominids and Asian Pongo is attributed to local extinctions between Europe and Central Asia. The EARS and TOC correlations suggest that these geomorphological features mediated establishment of the ancestral range www.researchgate.net.
(anyway, it's for a different topic maybe)
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As a Dane it feels wrong to pay money to countries where people retire at 60 while I have to work to 75. Especially when it is not even going to be a loan, but just straight up a handout. The worst part is probably that Covid-19 wasn't what fucked up their economies in the first place, it was just the latest nail in the coffin. It seems like there is a high risk that the handout will just be poured into a black hole - heck Italy is already talking about using the money to fund tax brakes.
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On July 22 2020 02:16 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 01:21 Velr wrote:
If we would be descendant from diffrent great/ancestor apes, this wouldn't even be an argument, there would be big diffrences in the DNA, not the small ones we got.
If we mixed for millenia long it also doesn't matter anymore. define big. currently(and most talked about) you have the chimpanzee/african ape theory and the second orangutan theory. the former is the most accepted one but the later has (overall)more evidence to back it up. en excerpt: Show nested quote +Our analyses support the following hypotheses: (1) the living large-bodied hominoids represent a monophyletic group comprising two sister clades: humans + orangutans, and chimpanzees (including bonobos) + gorillas (collectively, the African apes); and (2) the human–orangutan clade (dental hominoids) includes fossil hominids (Homo, australopiths, Orrorin) and the Miocene-age apes Hispanopithecus, Ouranopithecus, Ankarapithecus, Sivapithecus, Lufengpithecus, Khoratpithecus and Gigantopithecus (also Plio-Pleistocene of eastern Asia). We also demonstrate that the distributions of living and fossil genera are largely vicariant, with nodes of geographical overlap or proximity between Gigantopithecus and Sivapithecus in Central Asia, and between Pongo, Gigantopithecus, Lufengpithecus and Khoratpithecus in East Asia. The main massing is represented by five genera and eight species in East Asia. The dental hominoid track is spatially correlated with the East African Rift System (EARS) and the Tethys Orogenic Collage (TOC). Main conclusions Humans and orangutans share a common ancestor that excludes the extant African apes. Molecular analyses are compromised by phenetic procedures such as alignment and are probably based on primitive retentions. We infer that the human–orangutan common ancestor had established a widespread distribution by at least 13 Ma. Vicariant differentiation resulted in the ancestors of hominids in East Africa and various primarily Miocene apes distributed between Spain and Southeast Asia (and possibly also parts of East Africa). The geographical disjunction between early hominids and Asian Pongo is attributed to local extinctions between Europe and Central Asia. stuff is interesting and it's openly debated. + Show Spoiler +Abstract Aim To resolve the phylogeny of humans and their fossil relatives (collectively, hominids), orangutans (Pongo) and various Miocene great apes and to present a biogeographical model for their differentiation in space and time. Location Africa, northern Mediterranean, Asia. Methods Maximum parsimony analysis was used to assess phylogenetic relationships among living large-bodied hominoids (= humans, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, orangutans), and various related African, Asian and European ape fossils. Biogeographical characteristics were analysed for vicariant replacement, main massings and nodes. A geomorphological correlation was identified for a clade we refer to as the ‘dental hominoids’, and this correlation was used to reconstruct their historical geography. Results Our analyses support the following hypotheses: (1) the living large-bodied hominoids represent a monophyletic group comprising two sister clades: humans + orangutans, and chimpanzees (including bonobos) + gorillas (collectively, the African apes); and (2) the human–orangutan clade (dental hominoids) includes fossil hominids (Homo, australopiths, Orrorin) and the Miocene-age apes Hispanopithecus, Ouranopithecus, Ankarapithecus, Sivapithecus, Lufengpithecus, Khoratpithecus and Gigantopithecus (also Plio-Pleistocene of eastern Asia). We also demonstrate that the distributions of living and fossil genera are largely vicariant, with nodes of geographical overlap or proximity between Gigantopithecus and Sivapithecus in Central Asia, and between Pongo, Gigantopithecus, Lufengpithecus and Khoratpithecus in East Asia. The main massing is represented by five genera and eight species in East Asia. The dental hominoid track is spatially correlated with the East African Rift System (EARS) and the Tethys Orogenic Collage (TOC). Main conclusions Humans and orangutans share a common ancestor that excludes the extant African apes. Molecular analyses are compromised by phenetic procedures such as alignment and are probably based on primitive retentions. We infer that the human–orangutan common ancestor had established a widespread distribution by at least 13 Ma. Vicariant differentiation resulted in the ancestors of hominids in East Africa and various primarily Miocene apes distributed between Spain and Southeast Asia (and possibly also parts of East Africa). The geographical disjunction between early hominids and Asian Pongo is attributed to local extinctions between Europe and Central Asia. The EARS and TOC correlations suggest that these geomorphological features mediated establishment of the ancestral range www.researchgate.net. (anyway, it's for a different topic maybe)
There are several current and changing theories of humanity and none of them concern themselves with Chimpanzees and Orangutangs except that they have common ancestor.
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On July 22 2020 01:41 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
I saw the thread hauling ass and I figured I should pop in and see what kind of opinions people had on arguably the biggest economical and political package the EU has ever passed (after a marathon session of intense negotiations). Given the polarising opinions on it I figured that could have taken a bit to chew through.
Instead the discussion have been several pages about semantics and one of the truly ancient TL posters is now apparently permabanned.
I'm just summarising this for context and an outside perspective so feel free to carry on.
His duplicate account was permabanned.
On July 22 2020 01:57 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 01:36 stilt wrote:On July 22 2020 00:26 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 21 2020 23:55 stilt wrote:On July 21 2020 20:39 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:On July 21 2020 16:31 Broetchenholer wrote:
What are you even talking about? Auschwitz is not rooted in western society. You did it again, throwing something in a conversation it has nothing to do with. There have been zero repeats of Auschwitz since it has happened. Not in western culture nor in any other. It is, to this day, the one worst thing our species has done and it has zero to do with cultural imperialism. So stop it.
On the rest, yeah, of course you would cling to the anecdote. That France has been trying harder then other countries to enshrine their past culture and resist outside influence is well known, at least compared to Germany. We did not have quotas for German songs in the radio for example. This however, is like trying to turn back time. So you also want to go back to the time, where everybody listens to classical music? Which arbitrary time in the past do you want to mimic?
And just to get this straight, I have absolutely no beef with the French, my encounters with a few of them were unpleasant and showed a pattern but were way too few to generalize from it. I just believe that sentences like the French culture is absorbed is fucking stupid. It's like saying my air is being polluted, as if your air was somehow seperate from the rest of the air and had special qualities to it. And it's also implying that your air is more precious then the rest and you get to decide who gets to change that air and who does not. Zero repeat ? Then why the numerous comparaisons with the gulags or the ouighour camps ? You just invented totalitarism bs to separate from it, the "worst" of our specie doesn't come from nowhere, it has a cultural and political legacy. You conveniently dismiss my points on middle east us policies x) Because these comparisons are wrong. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
For god sake, the cold rationality of this factory of death is a creation of a racial capitalism ideology which can only come from protestant countries who are dominating the West with a burning hatred for everything that is not you just like when you gloat when you assert western cultural dominance.
Nazi Germany was not protestant. Gulags and Uighur detention center also do not center around Protestantism. France is not protestant, how does that factor in your western cultural dominance? Do you actually believe that France is a victim of western cultural dominance because it is not protestant? Or do you believe that France is part of the Western European dominance exported into the world? Hatred is not bound to religion. Each religion in the world has create massacres when they had the chance, so have atheist communities. This is not a western European, or German or protestant or Christian issue. It's a human issue. If you are ranting against western European/American culture being evil and culminating in Auschwitz and racial capitalism and then claim that France is a victim of that culture, then you are claiming that France has not contributed to racial capitalism, cannot be responsible for it and is different or better than the rest. I don’t know how else to read this. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
I want to mimic a time when we don't build aceptised temple to the glory of consumerism like Disneyland Paris neither watch propaganda from Hollywood or the mind-numbing reality shows. And even better, I would freaking love to go back to the time when social struggle was priveleged rather than the identitary/racial wars proposed by the western media and intelligentia which is matrice of racism and hatred between people who have interests to be united. In the end, indeed I cherish the times when people were struggling to conquest social rights rather than struggling to maintain them, the left is necessary conservative now as the new trend is the destruction of what has been accomplished.
Your air is poisonous then, and don't transform my words : I never said my culture was the best, I say it is way better than current western's one just like any others, I don't do comparaison with Russian, persan's ones or any others. Your post, for me, is so over the place, it’s really hard to even try to understand what you stand for. For example, now you say you want people to be united and racism and hatred to be a problem. But you want to be so little united, that “your culture” is not being changed. Do you not recognize, that allowing social currents from outside of your community to merge with your own culture creates more united people, less racism, less hatred? You have the option to go to Disneyworld or read a fine book of French classicism. Nobody forces you to eat McDonalds and listen to Kanye West. And if in 50 years some aspect of culture you consider French is not practiced anymore, people did not need it as much as you thought. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
Your air is poisonous then, and don't transform my words : I never said my culture was the best, I say it is way better than current western's one just like any others, I don't do comparaison with Russian, persan's ones or any others.
Oh, okay, just better than “western” culture. So you dislike the spreading of inferior culture to your place. You don’t think France is part of Western Culture, which is Auschwitz, but other cultures you cannot name are on the same level as yours. That makes perfect sense. On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
Edit : contrary to what you seem to think, my love for my country is rather motivated by a sense of duty rather than egocentric pride and some fetish of the past as I see it at the only source of social rights and real power of the people. (I don't like the term democracy, it is just expired nowadays) Help me here. Duty to the country is the only source of social rights and real power of the people? I might be wrong, it’s really hard for me to read that. I help you there, the nation is the basis of social rights, sorry if you don't understand the liberal philantropists and ngo are not. France is indeed not a protestant country who created entairtainent industry so it is not at the origin a western country like it is now, sorry if you understand it, its social core was not identity wars. You seem to think the West is a monolith who never changed. Entertainement industry is diffused from all medias by the great superpower of the world, sorry again if you don't undertand it, it is not a choice but an alienation, I bet even some german philosophers spoke about it in 60s... Liberal western socities are based on identity wars by the prism of various communities, this is sort of a racial, religious war totally instrumentalyzed in order to prevent both social struggle and the state to be too powerful, I don't think my point is this hard to understand either. I have tried understanding what your point is, and i have several times said, what parts of your post i interpret in what way. As far as i am interpreting you, you are unhappy with the US passively influencing your countries culture in a way you don't like. And you believe that everyones culture except four yours, Irans and Russias, will result in Auschwitz. And the reason for that is protestantism. Even though the french have shown many times that when in a position of power, they are more then capable of murdering people for monetary gain themselves, up to the second half of the last century. So, dislike american society and influence if you want, but if you are then conflating it into a crazy protestant imperialist Auschwitz against France, i call bullshit on you. And maybe also accept that people read your position as highly nationalist, because your assumption on what differentiates between good culture and bad culture seems to come down to: is it French or not. You have very serious reading comprehension difficulties indeed. I only say western culture is bad, unless you don't know there are other cultures that the ones I illustrate (indians, arabs, africans ones, in short every others, I really must give you an exhaustive list for you to get it ?) giving your pro western stance, I guess it is the case as nothing exists (or is legitimate) outside your political bubble, that's my main point actually, no need to add more to this as it leads to nowhere. Could somebody please step in and explain his thought to me in a way i can understand? If i am triggered and angry and don't get the point he is making, i am willing to let a neutral person explain. The way i understand it, western culture is bad and inevitably leads to something he calls identity wars, which is a thing, but not the thing he seems to mention. For some reason he believes that french culture is very distinct from western culture. Western culture to him is Auschwitz and hollywood, the connection they have is very unclear to me. And for some reason, protestantism plays a part in it. And all of that is causing france to suck, because people are not fighting for their social liberties anymore. Please someone explain it.
I read it the same way you did, and I'd wager most other members as well.
Ironically, his cultural exceptionalism/supremacism sound more similar to the German supremacism than the Western culture he despises.
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On July 22 2020 02:20 Ghostcom wrote:
As a Dane it feels wrong to pay money to countries where people retire at 60 while I have to work to 75. Especially when it is not even going to be a loan, but just straight up a handout. The worst part is probably that Covid-19 wasn't what fucked up their economies in the first place, it was just the latest nail in the coffin. It seems like there is a high risk that the handout will just be poured into a black hole - heck Italy is already talking about using the money to fund tax brakes.
As an anti-socialist it feels wrong to fund anything but the working and consuming classes for as long as they are the only ones paying taxes.
The whole complex of crisis payments is the biggest redistribution process from the working classes to rich and superrich capitalists ever. Enterprises pay hardly any taxes, so they cannot have state insurance right now. Simple as that. Everything else is communism for the rich.
Whether I pay for Austrian or Italian entrepreneurs I really couldn't give any fuck about.
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On July 22 2020 02:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 02:16 xM(Z wrote:On July 22 2020 01:21 Velr wrote:
If we would be descendant from diffrent great/ancestor apes, this wouldn't even be an argument, there would be big diffrences in the DNA, not the small ones we got.
If we mixed for millenia long it also doesn't matter anymore. define big. currently(and most talked about) you have the chimpanzee/african ape theory and the second orangutan theory. the former is the most accepted one but the later has (overall)more evidence to back it up. en excerpt: Our analyses support the following hypotheses: (1) the living large-bodied hominoids represent a monophyletic group comprising two sister clades: humans + orangutans, and chimpanzees (including bonobos) + gorillas (collectively, the African apes); and (2) the human–orangutan clade (dental hominoids) includes fossil hominids (Homo, australopiths, Orrorin) and the Miocene-age apes Hispanopithecus, Ouranopithecus, Ankarapithecus, Sivapithecus, Lufengpithecus, Khoratpithecus and Gigantopithecus (also Plio-Pleistocene of eastern Asia). We also demonstrate that the distributions of living and fossil genera are largely vicariant, with nodes of geographical overlap or proximity between Gigantopithecus and Sivapithecus in Central Asia, and between Pongo, Gigantopithecus, Lufengpithecus and Khoratpithecus in East Asia. The main massing is represented by five genera and eight species in East Asia. The dental hominoid track is spatially correlated with the East African Rift System (EARS) and the Tethys Orogenic Collage (TOC). Main conclusions Humans and orangutans share a common ancestor that excludes the extant African apes. Molecular analyses are compromised by phenetic procedures such as alignment and are probably based on primitive retentions. We infer that the human–orangutan common ancestor had established a widespread distribution by at least 13 Ma. Vicariant differentiation resulted in the ancestors of hominids in East Africa and various primarily Miocene apes distributed between Spain and Southeast Asia (and possibly also parts of East Africa). The geographical disjunction between early hominids and Asian Pongo is attributed to local extinctions between Europe and Central Asia. stuff is interesting and it's openly debated. + Show Spoiler +Abstract Aim To resolve the phylogeny of humans and their fossil relatives (collectively, hominids), orangutans (Pongo) and various Miocene great apes and to present a biogeographical model for their differentiation in space and time. Location Africa, northern Mediterranean, Asia. Methods Maximum parsimony analysis was used to assess phylogenetic relationships among living large-bodied hominoids (= humans, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, orangutans), and various related African, Asian and European ape fossils. Biogeographical characteristics were analysed for vicariant replacement, main massings and nodes. A geomorphological correlation was identified for a clade we refer to as the ‘dental hominoids’, and this correlation was used to reconstruct their historical geography. Results Our analyses support the following hypotheses: (1) the living large-bodied hominoids represent a monophyletic group comprising two sister clades: humans + orangutans, and chimpanzees (including bonobos) + gorillas (collectively, the African apes); and (2) the human–orangutan clade (dental hominoids) includes fossil hominids (Homo, australopiths, Orrorin) and the Miocene-age apes Hispanopithecus, Ouranopithecus, Ankarapithecus, Sivapithecus, Lufengpithecus, Khoratpithecus and Gigantopithecus (also Plio-Pleistocene of eastern Asia). We also demonstrate that the distributions of living and fossil genera are largely vicariant, with nodes of geographical overlap or proximity between Gigantopithecus and Sivapithecus in Central Asia, and between Pongo, Gigantopithecus, Lufengpithecus and Khoratpithecus in East Asia. The main massing is represented by five genera and eight species in East Asia. The dental hominoid track is spatially correlated with the East African Rift System (EARS) and the Tethys Orogenic Collage (TOC). Main conclusions Humans and orangutans share a common ancestor that excludes the extant African apes. Molecular analyses are compromised by phenetic procedures such as alignment and are probably based on primitive retentions. We infer that the human–orangutan common ancestor had established a widespread distribution by at least 13 Ma. Vicariant differentiation resulted in the ancestors of hominids in East Africa and various primarily Miocene apes distributed between Spain and Southeast Asia (and possibly also parts of East Africa). The geographical disjunction between early hominids and Asian Pongo is attributed to local extinctions between Europe and Central Asia. The EARS and TOC correlations suggest that these geomorphological features mediated establishment of the ancestral range www.researchgate.net. (anyway, it's for a different topic maybe) There are several current and changing theories of humanity and none of them concern themselves with Chimpanzees and Orangutangs except that they have common ancestor. how i read that:
- hmm, cherry picked contexts
- hmm, loaded words (humanity ... i mean ...)
after that, i understood that even as a bait, nothing constructive can come of what you said.
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Just to clarify, i am not looking for validation (okay, who am i kidding, aren't we all :D), that might lead to a pile on and might be a bit of bullying. But if someone can rephrase it so it makes sense, that would be appreciated 
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I think the whole thing was a bizarre march of germanic vs Latin euro culture nonsense that I could at least recognize as being bad and just weird. But then suddenly we get religious stuff mixed in with him complaining about prodestents and that just threw me for a brand new loop.
I wasn't even aware of catholic vs prodestent things were prevalent in racists in Europe is this a new thing or is this something that just didn't go away?
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On July 22 2020 03:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 02:20 Ghostcom wrote:
As a Dane it feels wrong to pay money to countries where people retire at 60 while I have to work to 75. Especially when it is not even going to be a loan, but just straight up a handout. The worst part is probably that Covid-19 wasn't what fucked up their economies in the first place, it was just the latest nail in the coffin. It seems like there is a high risk that the handout will just be poured into a black hole - heck Italy is already talking about using the money to fund tax brakes. As an anti-socialist it feels wrong to fund anything but the working and consuming classes for as long as they are the only ones paying taxes. The whole complex of crisis payments is the biggest redistribution process from the working classes to rich and superrich capitalists ever. Enterprises pay hardly any taxes, so they cannot have state insurance right now. Simple as that. Everything else is communism for the rich. Whether I pay for Austrian or Italian entrepreneurs I really couldn't give any fuck about.
It's not my field, but Austrian entrepreneurs are more likely to invest their capital in Austria than Italy, are they not? This means they might invest in something that will benefit you directly or indirectly.
I'm basing this mostly on the stuff I read on the "repolonization" of the banking sector in Poland that started more or less when the eurocrisis started. I think the idea was that it's safer to have the banks owned by the state or private local entities because foreign banks tend to collect most of their revenue to spend it elswhere, and local banks are more likely to invest their revenue locally, which is obviously better for the people living in the area.
Slightly related fun facts I found when checking I'm not making shit up:
1993: 93% of Polish banks are controlled by Polish entities
2008: 28% of Polish banks are controlled by Polish entities
2018: 54% of Polish banks are controlled by Polish entities
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On July 22 2020 03:23 Sermokala wrote:
I think the whole thing was a bizarre march of germanic vs Latin euro culture nonsense that I could at least recognize as being bad and just weird. But then suddenly we get religious stuff mixed in with him complaining about prodestents and that just threw me for a brand new loop.
I wasn't even aware of catholic vs prodestent things were prevalent in racists in Europe is this a new thing or is this something that just didn't go away?
In some places never went away, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth is a celebration of protestants winning a battle over catholics many years ago. But don't think that was much of redemption to the discussion of the last few pages anyways.
To specify, that event and its derivatives seem to cause conflict at least here in Glasgow every year, that's why I pinpointed it. Not to pick sides ^^
But yes, in Glasgow and Northern Ireland it is still a thing. I would claim it is less about the religion nowadays, and more about other issues where the lines are drawn quite closely along the religious divisions.
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On July 22 2020 03:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 02:20 Ghostcom wrote:
As a Dane it feels wrong to pay money to countries where people retire at 60 while I have to work to 75. Especially when it is not even going to be a loan, but just straight up a handout. The worst part is probably that Covid-19 wasn't what fucked up their economies in the first place, it was just the latest nail in the coffin. It seems like there is a high risk that the handout will just be poured into a black hole - heck Italy is already talking about using the money to fund tax brakes. As an anti-socialist it feels wrong to fund anything but the working and consuming classes for as long as they are the only ones paying taxes. The whole complex of crisis payments is the biggest redistribution process from the working classes to rich and superrich capitalists ever. Enterprises pay hardly any taxes, so they cannot have state insurance right now. Simple as that. Everything else is communism for the rich. Whether I pay for Austrian or Italian entrepreneurs I really couldn't give any fuck about.
So I take it your aren't exactly loving the new EU deal either?
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On July 22 2020 03:30 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 03:05 Big J wrote:On July 22 2020 02:20 Ghostcom wrote:
As a Dane it feels wrong to pay money to countries where people retire at 60 while I have to work to 75. Especially when it is not even going to be a loan, but just straight up a handout. The worst part is probably that Covid-19 wasn't what fucked up their economies in the first place, it was just the latest nail in the coffin. It seems like there is a high risk that the handout will just be poured into a black hole - heck Italy is already talking about using the money to fund tax brakes. As an anti-socialist it feels wrong to fund anything but the working and consuming classes for as long as they are the only ones paying taxes. The whole complex of crisis payments is the biggest redistribution process from the working classes to rich and superrich capitalists ever. Enterprises pay hardly any taxes, so they cannot have state insurance right now. Simple as that. Everything else is communism for the rich. Whether I pay for Austrian or Italian entrepreneurs I really couldn't give any fuck about. It's not my field, but Austrian entrepreneurs are more likely to invest their capital in Austria than Italy, are they not? This means they might invest in something that will benefit you directly or indirectly. I'm basing this mostly on the stuff I read on the "repolonization" of the banking sector in Poland that started more or less when the eurocrisis started. I think the idea was that it's safer to have the banks owned by the state or private local entities because foreign banks tend to collect most of their revenue to spend it elswhere, and local banks are more likely to invest their revenue locally, which is obviously better for the people living in the area. Slightly related fun facts I found when checking I'm not making shit up: 1993: 93% of Polish banks are controlled by Polish entities 2008: 28% of Polish banks are controlled by Polish entities 2018: 54% of Polish banks are controlled by Polish entities
I generally don't believe in other people knowing what I want. I profit most if investments are made by people that lead a comparable lifestyle, because their needs will coincide the most with mine. Therefore, any redistribution of money and power should follow an insurance principle.
If the way to acquire money is work, then working people should have the insurance.
On the flipside, people that lead vastly different lives from mine (e.g. very rich people) will use their capital to develop things that have hardly any overlap with my needs. Often they will directly counteract my needs, e.g. when they develop business buildings when I want living space.
Therefore I consider taxation of my needs to fund enterprises as vastly aggressive against me. Not only do I give up money in the process, a lot of it will be used against my needs.
Obviously I may profit from regional overlap with where the money goes to some degree. Even more I profit if Polish workers are funded, because due to free markets I can usually buy the same or similar products developed by their market power. Obviously, I personally would benefit the most if I kept the money and never needed insurance.
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On July 22 2020 03:23 Sermokala wrote:
I think the whole thing was a bizarre march of germanic vs Latin euro culture nonsense that I could at least recognize as being bad and just weird. But then suddenly we get religious stuff mixed in with him complaining about prodestents and that just threw me for a brand new loop.
I wasn't even aware of catholic vs prodestent things were prevalent in racists in Europe is this a new thing or is this something that just didn't go away?
I think it's less "catholicism vs protestantism" thing and more "traditionally catholic countries vs traditionally protestant countries thing". The latter like to criticise the former for their unwillingness to reform, and the former like to criticise the latter for their tendency to rewrite the rules to justify doing what they want. Religion stopped mattering in this context centuries ago.
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On July 22 2020 03:41 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2020 03:05 Big J wrote:On July 22 2020 02:20 Ghostcom wrote:
As a Dane it feels wrong to pay money to countries where people retire at 60 while I have to work to 75. Especially when it is not even going to be a loan, but just straight up a handout. The worst part is probably that Covid-19 wasn't what fucked up their economies in the first place, it was just the latest nail in the coffin. It seems like there is a high risk that the handout will just be poured into a black hole - heck Italy is already talking about using the money to fund tax brakes. As an anti-socialist it feels wrong to fund anything but the working and consuming classes for as long as they are the only ones paying taxes. The whole complex of crisis payments is the biggest redistribution process from the working classes to rich and superrich capitalists ever. Enterprises pay hardly any taxes, so they cannot have state insurance right now. Simple as that. Everything else is communism for the rich. Whether I pay for Austrian or Italian entrepreneurs I really couldn't give any fuck about. So I take it your aren't exactly loving the new EU deal either?
Since I see no way that the money will be acquired by those social classes that gain market power through it, I absolutely don't like it.
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EPT
