|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 21 2020 22:17 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 22:13 JimmiC wrote:On July 21 2020 22:07 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 22:04 Acrofales wrote:On July 21 2020 21:57 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 21:42 Broetchenholer wrote:
Why am i constantly triggered today? Could you elaborate why not many Nazis were racist, an ideology that believes them to be superior to everyone not of their heritage?
And secondly, the thing with modern Germany is that it is trying not to be racist, not pretending to not be racist. I don't know why you are comparing your situation as a (i assume) working canadian expat in germany with a refugee from Syria or Iraq, but you do you.
Edit: And then you keep posting and every post is triggering me again. I am now going to watch Critical Role in the hopes it restores the balance.
Some of them were, but probably not as many as in the United States back then. Germany had no colonies, and there was very little immigration back then. Some Nazis had racial views, like Himmler. Hitler himself did not. Here is one of Hitler's "talks." Pride in one’s race – and that does not imply contempt for other races – is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their history is superior to our own.
They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them. I just said I shoulnd't reply to you but I cant help myself. You are saying, with a straight face, that Hitler wasn't a racist? Like... in what alternate reality do you live? First of all you have to define what you mean by race, but yes, I just said that Hitler was not "racist," in the common Anglo-American usage of that word. He at one point even said that the Jews are not really a race. Hitler was just one of the commonly misunderstood and vilified figures in history, like so many people just demonise Osama Bin Laden. Both terribly understood people. You can understand what another person is saying, even if you do not agree with it. Many people it seems today have this odd "You vs. Me" mentality. Your version of history and the actual version of history are very different. Hitler not being a racist has to be one of the least accurate hot takes ever issued. I mean he always talks about inferior genetics. What did you think this meant? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_black_people_in_Nazi_Germany The ideology was called National Socialism. Hitler was a Nationalist, not a Racist. He was obviously opposed to half-lings being born for other reasons. I have read many Hitler biographies. So I do know him quite well. I am doing my "Promotion" in history at a German university now.
Wait. Weren't you getting your doctorate in gender studies the last time we spoke?
|
On July 21 2020 22:17 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 22:13 JimmiC wrote:On July 21 2020 22:07 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 22:04 Acrofales wrote:On July 21 2020 21:57 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 21:42 Broetchenholer wrote:
Why am i constantly triggered today? Could you elaborate why not many Nazis were racist, an ideology that believes them to be superior to everyone not of their heritage?
And secondly, the thing with modern Germany is that it is trying not to be racist, not pretending to not be racist. I don't know why you are comparing your situation as a (i assume) working canadian expat in germany with a refugee from Syria or Iraq, but you do you.
Edit: And then you keep posting and every post is triggering me again. I am now going to watch Critical Role in the hopes it restores the balance.
Some of them were, but probably not as many as in the United States back then. Germany had no colonies, and there was very little immigration back then. Some Nazis had racial views, like Himmler. Hitler himself did not. Here is one of Hitler's "talks." Pride in one’s race – and that does not imply contempt for other races – is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their history is superior to our own.
They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them. I just said I shoulnd't reply to you but I cant help myself. You are saying, with a straight face, that Hitler wasn't a racist? Like... in what alternate reality do you live? First of all you have to define what you mean by race, but yes, I just said that Hitler was not "racist," in the common Anglo-American usage of that word. He at one point even said that the Jews are not really a race. Hitler was just one of the commonly misunderstood and vilified figures in history, like so many people just demonise Osama Bin Laden. Both terribly understood people. You can understand what another person is saying, even if you do not agree with it. Many people it seems today have this odd "You vs. Me" mentality. Your version of history and the actual version of history are very different. Hitler not being a racist has to be one of the least accurate hot takes ever issued. I mean he always talks about inferior genetics. What did you think this meant? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_black_people_in_Nazi_Germany The ideology was called National Socialism. Hitler was a Nationalist, not a Racist. He was obviously opposed to half-lings being born for other reasons. I have read many Hitler biographies. So I do know him quite well. I am doing my "Promotion" in history at a German university now.
Help me understand you. Do you mean Hitler wasn't racist because he wanted to genocide certain groups of people not because he considered them inferior, but because they happened to "stand in German way"?
|
On July 21 2020 22:13 whaski wrote:
How do you feel about the new recovery package? Probably as good as we were going to get.
So long as the money actually gets spend on recovery and economic repair/growth and doesn't disappear into corruption and mismanagement I have no problem with it.
We all profit if we help each other recover.
|
On July 21 2020 22:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 22:17 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 22:13 JimmiC wrote:On July 21 2020 22:07 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 22:04 Acrofales wrote:On July 21 2020 21:57 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 21:42 Broetchenholer wrote:
Why am i constantly triggered today? Could you elaborate why not many Nazis were racist, an ideology that believes them to be superior to everyone not of their heritage?
And secondly, the thing with modern Germany is that it is trying not to be racist, not pretending to not be racist. I don't know why you are comparing your situation as a (i assume) working canadian expat in germany with a refugee from Syria or Iraq, but you do you.
Edit: And then you keep posting and every post is triggering me again. I am now going to watch Critical Role in the hopes it restores the balance.
Some of them were, but probably not as many as in the United States back then. Germany had no colonies, and there was very little immigration back then. Some Nazis had racial views, like Himmler. Hitler himself did not. Here is one of Hitler's "talks." Pride in one’s race – and that does not imply contempt for other races – is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their history is superior to our own.
They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them. I just said I shoulnd't reply to you but I cant help myself. You are saying, with a straight face, that Hitler wasn't a racist? Like... in what alternate reality do you live? First of all you have to define what you mean by race, but yes, I just said that Hitler was not "racist," in the common Anglo-American usage of that word. He at one point even said that the Jews are not really a race. Hitler was just one of the commonly misunderstood and vilified figures in history, like so many people just demonise Osama Bin Laden. Both terribly understood people. You can understand what another person is saying, even if you do not agree with it. Many people it seems today have this odd "You vs. Me" mentality. Your version of history and the actual version of history are very different. Hitler not being a racist has to be one of the least accurate hot takes ever issued. I mean he always talks about inferior genetics. What did you think this meant? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_black_people_in_Nazi_Germany The ideology was called National Socialism. Hitler was a Nationalist, not a Racist. He was obviously opposed to half-lings being born for other reasons. I have read many Hitler biographies. So I do know him quite well. I am doing my "Promotion" in history at a German university now. Wait. Weren't you getting your doctorate in gender studies the last time we spoke?
No, I do not do "gender studies." I do not even think that they exist much in Germany. A "Promotion" is a German degree equivalent to an Anglo-Saxon "PhD."
Help me understand you. Do you mean Hitler wasn't racist because he wanted to genocide certain groups of people not because he considered them inferior, but because they happened to "stand in German way"?
Hitler has multiple goals. It depends on what you are talking about. For example, his hatred and semi-genocide of the Poles. However that is a complex issue. Even ethnically, Poland was a divided country before the war. And the Poles were not without their own vices in the lead-up to the war.
The biggest question to Hitler's anti-antisemitism though remains a mystery. Did Hitler fear that he himself might have had some Jewish ancestry? We do not know. It is lost to history.
|
As I read MW Hitler couldn't possibly be racist because Jews aren't a race, he liked other races and we still haven't defined what race actually is.
|
On July 21 2020 22:07 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 22:04 Acrofales wrote:On July 21 2020 21:57 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 21:42 Broetchenholer wrote:
Why am i constantly triggered today? Could you elaborate why not many Nazis were racist, an ideology that believes them to be superior to everyone not of their heritage?
And secondly, the thing with modern Germany is that it is trying not to be racist, not pretending to not be racist. I don't know why you are comparing your situation as a (i assume) working canadian expat in germany with a refugee from Syria or Iraq, but you do you.
Edit: And then you keep posting and every post is triggering me again. I am now going to watch Critical Role in the hopes it restores the balance.
Some of them were, but probably not as many as in the United States back then. Germany had no colonies, and there was very little immigration back then. Some Nazis had racial views, like Himmler. Hitler himself did not. Here is one of Hitler's "talks." Pride in one’s race – and that does not imply contempt for other races – is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their history is superior to our own.
They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them. I just said I shoulnd't reply to you but I cant help myself. You are saying, with a straight face, that Hitler wasn't a racist? Like... in what alternate reality do you live? First of all you have to define what you mean by race, but yes, I just said that Hitler was not "racist," in the common Anglo-American usage of that word. He at one point even said that the Jews are not really a race. Hitler was just one of the commonly misunderstood and vilified figures in history, like so many people just demonise Osama Bin Laden. Both terribly understood people. You can understand what another person is saying, even if you do not agree with it. Many people it seems today have this odd "You vs. Me" mentality.
You do realize though, that there are no human races anyway? Defining racism as someone hating another race is flawed because then no one is a racist. We are all the same, from the standpoint of biology.
But, this is the line i draw. I will now extract myself out of discussing with you because i do not have any explanation to why you are posting like that, that would not directly attack your intelligence or moral integrity. I hope it's just drugs.
|
[B]On July 21 2020 22:31 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Hitler has multiple goals. It depends on what you are talking about. For example, his hatred and semi-genocide of the Poles. However that is a complex issue. Even ethnically, Poland was a divided country before the war. And the Poles were not without their own vices in the lead-up to the war.
The biggest question to Hitler's anti-antisemitism though remains a mystery. Did Hitler fear that he himself might have had some Jewish ancestry? We do not know. It is lost to history.
Killing someone makes me a killer. Hating someone based on ancestry makes me a racist. Yes, even if I don't consider myself a racist. It's a societal label, not a scientific adjective.
|
From what you wrote, we are obviously using the English language here, and every language has an etymology that is tied to its own history. The word "racist" is mostly an American coinage today, I think. They made up some other words that would be completely mysterious to people from other parts of the world. Like what do the Americans mean by "Latinos"? I don't know.
One person said: you are a "Latino" if your first language was Spanish. So I guess that includes people from Madrid, but excludes people from Barcelona? I don't know.
So "racism" must been seen differently in every context. Are Iranians of a different race, even though they are "Caucasians" or even the original "Aryans"?
I believe that the modern usage of the word "race" mainly comes from the USA, where there is a dividing line between "Black," "White," "Yellow," and sometimes "Red."
Another question for me was: we are now living in a globalised world. Does that mean that all cultures are going to one day come together? Or will there be an eternal battle of ideas? I do not know.
|
|
|
Norway28689 Posts
On July 21 2020 22:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 22:17 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 22:13 JimmiC wrote:On July 21 2020 22:07 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 22:04 Acrofales wrote:On July 21 2020 21:57 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 21 2020 21:42 Broetchenholer wrote:
Why am i constantly triggered today? Could you elaborate why not many Nazis were racist, an ideology that believes them to be superior to everyone not of their heritage?
And secondly, the thing with modern Germany is that it is trying not to be racist, not pretending to not be racist. I don't know why you are comparing your situation as a (i assume) working canadian expat in germany with a refugee from Syria or Iraq, but you do you.
Edit: And then you keep posting and every post is triggering me again. I am now going to watch Critical Role in the hopes it restores the balance.
Some of them were, but probably not as many as in the United States back then. Germany had no colonies, and there was very little immigration back then. Some Nazis had racial views, like Himmler. Hitler himself did not. Here is one of Hitler's "talks." Pride in one’s race – and that does not imply contempt for other races – is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their history is superior to our own.
They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them. I just said I shoulnd't reply to you but I cant help myself. You are saying, with a straight face, that Hitler wasn't a racist? Like... in what alternate reality do you live? First of all you have to define what you mean by race, but yes, I just said that Hitler was not "racist," in the common Anglo-American usage of that word. He at one point even said that the Jews are not really a race. Hitler was just one of the commonly misunderstood and vilified figures in history, like so many people just demonise Osama Bin Laden. Both terribly understood people. You can understand what another person is saying, even if you do not agree with it. Many people it seems today have this odd "You vs. Me" mentality. Your version of history and the actual version of history are very different. Hitler not being a racist has to be one of the least accurate hot takes ever issued. I mean he always talks about inferior genetics. What did you think this meant? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_black_people_in_Nazi_Germany The ideology was called National Socialism. Hitler was a Nationalist, not a Racist. He was obviously opposed to half-lings being born for other reasons. I have read many Hitler biographies. So I do know him quite well. I am doing my "Promotion" in history at a German university now. Wait. Weren't you getting your doctorate in gender studies the last time we spoke?
Moltke has always been a historian.
|
That seems kinda hard to believe after the last 1-2 pages.
|
On July 21 2020 22:29 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 22:13 whaski wrote:
How do you feel about the new recovery package? Probably as good as we were going to get. So long as the money actually gets spend on recovery and economic repair/growth and doesn't disappear into corruption and mismanagement I have no problem with it. We all profit if we help each other recover.
Is there somewhere a detailed breaktrough of how funds will be distributed?? I mean by country/region and/or by industry/economic area.
|
United States42982 Posts
Especially given statements like Germany not having had colonies. The fact they lost their colonies doesn’t mean they didn’t engage in colonialism, it just means they engaged in both colonialism and picking fights with colonial powers. If you look at the conferences and geopolitical aspirations of the European powers in the late 19th and early 20th century you are left with no doubt that Germany sees itself as a colonial power, just one that arrived late on the scene and cannot establish itself in Africa without coming into conflict with French and British interests. But direct governance was only one part of the imperial framework of the colonial era and Germany was every bit as involved in economic imperialism as the rest of them. It wasn’t until WW2 and the seizure of German interests around the world, particularly in South America, plus the impact of the blockade that that fell apart.
You might as well describe Japan as insular because of its lack of an empire on the Asian mainland or Pacific islands if you’re going to commit to that level of historical revisionism.
|
As a descendent of German colonizers of South America, I find that take perplexing as well.
|
On July 21 2020 23:31 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 22:29 Gorsameth wrote:On July 21 2020 22:13 whaski wrote:
How do you feel about the new recovery package? Probably as good as we were going to get. So long as the money actually gets spend on recovery and economic repair/growth and doesn't disappear into corruption and mismanagement I have no problem with it. We all profit if we help each other recover. Is there somewhere a detailed breaktrough of how funds will be distributed?? I mean by country/region and/or by industry/economic area. not that I have seen
|
I was just banned by someone here, so this is my last post on tl.net forever. Even Kwark misunderstood me. Whether deliberately so, or no. What I said obviously applied to the time of the Third Reich, not before. And I am not talking about Germans who went abroad to other countries. Obviously, the USA is today mostly "ethnically German." That does not matter. They were "Americanised."
I am out.
User was banned for this post.
|
On July 21 2020 20:39 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:On July 21 2020 16:31 Broetchenholer wrote:
What are you even talking about? Auschwitz is not rooted in western society. You did it again, throwing something in a conversation it has nothing to do with. There have been zero repeats of Auschwitz since it has happened. Not in western culture nor in any other. It is, to this day, the one worst thing our species has done and it has zero to do with cultural imperialism. So stop it.
On the rest, yeah, of course you would cling to the anecdote. That France has been trying harder then other countries to enshrine their past culture and resist outside influence is well known, at least compared to Germany. We did not have quotas for German songs in the radio for example. This however, is like trying to turn back time. So you also want to go back to the time, where everybody listens to classical music? Which arbitrary time in the past do you want to mimic?
And just to get this straight, I have absolutely no beef with the French, my encounters with a few of them were unpleasant and showed a pattern but were way too few to generalize from it. I just believe that sentences like the French culture is absorbed is fucking stupid. It's like saying my air is being polluted, as if your air was somehow seperate from the rest of the air and had special qualities to it. And it's also implying that your air is more precious then the rest and you get to decide who gets to change that air and who does not. Zero repeat ? Then why the numerous comparaisons with the gulags or the ouighour camps ? You just invented totalitarism bs to separate from it, the "worst" of our specie doesn't come from nowhere, it has a cultural and political legacy. Because these comparisons are wrong. Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
For god sake, the cold rationality of this factory of death is a creation of a racial capitalism ideology which can only come from protestant countries who are dominating the West with a burning hatred for everything that is not you just like when you gloat when you assert western cultural dominance.
Nazi Germany was not protestant. Gulags and Uighur detention center also do not center around Protestantism. France is not protestant, how does that factor in your western cultural dominance? Do you actually believe that France is a victim of western cultural dominance because it is not protestant? Or do you believe that France is part of the Western European dominance exported into the world? Hatred is not bound to religion. Each religion in the world has create massacres when they had the chance, so have atheist communities. This is not a western European, or German or protestant or Christian issue. It's a human issue. If you are ranting against western European/American culture being evil and culminating in Auschwitz and racial capitalism and then claim that France is a victim of that culture, then you are claiming that France has not contributed to racial capitalism, cannot be responsible for it and is different or better than the rest. I don’t know how else to read this. Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
I want to mimic a time when we don't build aceptised temple to the glory of consumerism like Disneyland Paris neither watch propaganda from Hollywood or the mind-numbing reality shows. And even better, I would freaking love to go back to the time when social struggle was priveleged rather than the identitary/racial wars proposed by the western media and intelligentia which is matrice of racism and hatred between people who have interests to be united. In the end, indeed I cherish the times when people were struggling to conquest social rights rather than struggling to maintain them, the left is necessary conservative now as the new trend is the destruction of what has been accomplished.
Your air is poisonous then, and don't transform my words : I never said my culture was the best, I say it is way better than current western's one just like any others, I don't do comparaison with Russian, persan's ones or any others. Your post, for me, is so over the place, it’s really hard to even try to understand what you stand for. For example, now you say you want people to be united and racism and hatred to be a problem. But you want to be so little united, that “your culture” is not being changed. Do you not recognize, that allowing social currents from outside of your community to merge with your own culture creates more united people, less racism, less hatred? You have the option to go to Disneyworld or read a fine book of French classicism. Nobody forces you to eat McDonalds and listen to Kanye West. And if in 50 years some aspect of culture you consider French is not practiced anymore, people did not need it as much as you thought. Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
Your air is poisonous then, and don't transform my words : I never said my culture was the best, I say it is way better than current western's one just like any others, I don't do comparaison with Russian, persan's ones or any others.
Oh, okay, just better than “western” culture. So you dislike the spreading of inferior culture to your place. You don’t think France is part of Western Culture, which is Auschwitz, but other cultures you cannot name are on the same level as yours. That makes perfect sense. Show nested quote +On July 21 2020 17:48 stilt wrote:
Edit : contrary to what you seem to think, my love for my country is rather motivated by a sense of duty rather than egocentric pride and some fetish of the past as I see it at the only source of social rights and real power of the people. (I don't like the term democracy, it is just expired nowadays) Help me here. Duty to the country is the only source of social rights and real power of the people? I might be wrong, it’s really hard for me to read that.
Tbh, I might be unclear but for sure you don't really seem open either.
I help you there, the nation is the basis of social rights, sorry if you don't understand the liberal philantropists and ngo are not, the entity who is giving me paid vacations are indeed the states just like 90% of my rights thanks for decades if not centuries of struggle.
France is indeed not a protestant country who created entertainent industry so it is not at the origin a western country like it is now, sorry if you understand it, its social core was not identity wars. You seem to think the West is a monolith who never changed.
Entertainement industry is diffused from all medias by the great superpower of the world, sorry again if you don't undertand it, it is not a choice but an alienation, I bet even some german philosophers spoke about it in 60s...
Liberal western socities are based on identity wars by the prism of various communities, this is sort of a racial, religious war totally instrumentalyzed in order to prevent both social struggle and the state to be too powerful, I don't think my point is this hard to understand either.
|
On July 21 2020 23:40 MoltkeWarding3 wrote:
I was just banned by someone here, so this is my last post on tl.net forever. Even Kwark misunderstood me. Whether deliberately so, or no. What I said obviously applied to the time of the Third Reich, not before. And I am not talking about Germans who went abroad to other countries. Obviously, the USA is today mostly "ethnically German." That does not matter. They were "Americanised."
I am out.
User was banned for this post.
He's a peculiar historian indeed. It's interesting how the Third Reich was not a colonial power, considering it aimed to colonize most of Eastern Europe, genocide most Slavic people and turn the rest of them into slaves.
|
Wow. I am gone for a few hours, and suddenly Hitler isn't racist, but modern Germany today is "pretending" not to be racist.
I wanna thank Broetchenholer for giving exactly the responses i would have given if i had been here.
|
it was an argument on context and semantics and you dudes flipped the fuck out with the implications.
sad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
