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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1247

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 22 2019 20:26 GMT
#24921
I think we had that discussion already. And yes, I was more than fully aware about the locations of Austria and the Czech Republic when I wrote what I wrote.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
May 23 2019 18:17 GMT
#24922
On May 23 2019 03:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2019 05:40 m4ini wrote:
On May 22 2019 05:35 opisska wrote:
On May 22 2019 05:16 Big J wrote:
Get your shit together Eastern Europe! Your corruption is disgusting for us noble Westerners!
+ Show Spoiler +
But really, keep on protesting. It turns out that showing public disgust can help, at least it did in Austria on Saturday.


Have you ever noticed that Prague is almost 200 kms WEST of Vienna? We don't really like being called Eastern Europe and we have a good geographic reason for it


Probably a relic of older times, czechoslovakia. That stretched pretty far east.

Relic of the cold war actually. East Europe is a pretty meaningless label that doesn't denote anything other than being an "other" from "West Europe" anyways.


I think there's cultural similarities that can be found even if the reason why they're held might differ from country to country. There's a larger scepticism towards liberal democracy in particular in the countries with a communist history, there's a clear difference on the role of religion and family in public life, on multiculturalism and gay rights among some other things. It's painting with a broad brush of course but as a concept it's not meaningless.

And I don't think it's just a "outside looking in" view from Western Europe either. As they've grown economically central and eastern European countries have started to take it on as a political identity themselves. If anything positioning themselves in opposition to the Western half of the continent seems as popular as it is the other way around.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-23 22:21:42
May 23 2019 22:18 GMT
#24923
We had the EU elections today. Exit polls give Social Democrats the largest amount of votes. 18 percent. 2 years ago they were almost marginlized in our own parlement and now they are on top. Voter demographics also change i guess with a 40 percent attendance compared to high 70s for the dutch parlement

I guess it really helped that Frans Timmermans was the frontman he was by far the most well known, but still such big difference in 2 years.

Ruttes liberals got 15 percent and christian conservatives are around 12 percent

Nexit supporting alt right party got 11 percent.
Neosteel Enthusiast
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10873 Posts
May 23 2019 22:31 GMT
#24924
If its in the european song contest - its europe.

Welcome Australia, Aserbaidschan, Kasachstan and others. Everyone is happy to have you, please don't make a mess.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 24 2019 21:55 GMT
#24925
The campaign is over in France. Macron, this colossal imbecile, gave the FN a nice boost by committing to the campaign, choosing them as only opponents and turning those elections into a "me or the far-right" remake of the 2017 presidential.

Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.

The last polls give the following average score for the 6 lists above 5% (below you don't get any MP):

FN (far-right): 25%
Macron: 22,7%
LR (right): 12,8%
FI (left): 8,3%
EELV (ecologists): 8,2%
PS ("social-democrats"): 5%

The PS might not have elected representatives for the first time since... ever (1979).
Aceace
Profile Joined June 2011
Turkey1305 Posts
May 25 2019 02:24 GMT
#24926
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.
Dün dündür, bugün bugündür. (Yesterday was yesterday, today is today)
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12079 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-25 06:54:12
May 25 2019 06:53 GMT
#24927
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote:
Show nested quote +
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.


The EU elections aren't published well enough. They also aren't run at the same time as the election people perceive as more important, their national ones.

Anybody commenting here can be assumed to vote since they care about politics. The ones not voting are also the same ones that wouldn't talk or read here.
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18625 Posts
May 25 2019 07:42 GMT
#24928
On May 25 2019 15:53 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote:
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.


The EU elections aren't published well enough. They also aren't run at the same time as the election people perceive as more important, their national ones.

Anybody commenting here can be assumed to vote since they care about politics. The ones not voting are also the same ones that wouldn't talk or read here.


Thats a weak excuse. Even national polls in most of Europe have at most around 70% participation. Here in Austria 70% is celebrated like christmas. Truth is just that there are just too many dumb people who dont care, also many many young people dont care. This happens when a generation grows up with no problems and no worries. The biggest worry the kids who grow up now is how well they look at snapchat
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 25 2019 08:30 GMT
#24929
On May 25 2019 16:42 sharkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2019 15:53 Yurie wrote:
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote:
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.


The EU elections aren't published well enough. They also aren't run at the same time as the election people perceive as more important, their national ones.

Anybody commenting here can be assumed to vote since they care about politics. The ones not voting are also the same ones that wouldn't talk or read here.


Thats a weak excuse. Even national polls in most of Europe have at most around 70% participation. Here in Austria 70% is celebrated like christmas. Truth is just that there are just too many dumb people who dont care, also many many young people dont care. This happens when a generation grows up with no problems and no worries. The biggest worry the kids who grow up now is how well they look at snapchat


And is that really so bad? People don't really have any issues, so they don't feel the need to do anything about anything. Most of the candidates are also pretty similar anyway and the differences that are made into campaign points are so minor that a lot of voters just don't care.

I think it's much more important that people go to vote in Turkey, where there is a legitimate chance to oust a dictator, or at least to make his life harder, but the low participation in stable EU countries really hurting much beyond the feels of those who get off in the evening over the greatness of modern democracy.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-25 08:53:58
May 25 2019 08:52 GMT
#24930
Demographics and core voters make it so that we start solving the political issues generations see 30 years later.
Currently we are solving migration topics that have been ventilated in the 1980s and 1990s, but weren't dealt with back then because we had to wait for older generations to die.
20 years from now we will have a very angry majority generation that will violently attack climate change. That is when the antimigration generation will finally be on their deathbeds.

That is why many people don't vote. Changing things in this enviroment is very hard, because most people just vote for parties like they support football clubs.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 25 2019 09:39 GMT
#24931
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote:
Show nested quote +
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.

In France most people reject the political system and all parties, because all of them have been disappointing in one way or another those past decades. People vote for the presidential because that's the most important election in our regime, then ~half of them turn away from intermediary elections (except municipal elections which still have a decent turnout) because "it will change nothing" and/or they don't want to legitimate a system in which they don't believe.
Aceace
Profile Joined June 2011
Turkey1305 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-25 17:24:01
May 25 2019 14:09 GMT
#24932
On May 25 2019 17:30 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2019 16:42 sharkie wrote:
On May 25 2019 15:53 Yurie wrote:
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote:
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.


The EU elections aren't published well enough. They also aren't run at the same time as the election people perceive as more important, their national ones.

Anybody commenting here can be assumed to vote since they care about politics. The ones not voting are also the same ones that wouldn't talk or read here.


Thats a weak excuse. Even national polls in most of Europe have at most around 70% participation. Here in Austria 70% is celebrated like christmas. Truth is just that there are just too many dumb people who dont care, also many many young people dont care. This happens when a generation grows up with no problems and no worries. The biggest worry the kids who grow up now is how well they look at snapchat


And is that really so bad? People don't really have any issues, so they don't feel the need to do anything about anything. Most of the candidates are also pretty similar anyway and the differences that are made into campaign points are so minor that a lot of voters just don't care.

I think it's much more important that people go to vote in Turkey, where there is a legitimate chance to oust a dictator, or at least to make his life harder, but the low participation in stable EU countries really hurting much beyond the feels of those who get off in the evening over the greatness of modern democracy.


Naah. One man regime is waaay different then regular democracies. We don't vote to oust our beloved presidente. We vote because we want to show how much we love him.

https://oefresearch.org/think-peace/when-dictators-lose-elections

With that in mind, the third panel shows us that only 12 percent of dictators will make the decision to leave office after facing such a loss, with 88 percent ignoring the results and maintaining their control of the government.

After all.. If he doesn't like the results he can just renew it. He did it 2 times already. (In June 2015 general elections and in lstanbul municipal elections.)

On May 25 2019 18:39 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote:
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.

In France most people reject the political system and all parties, because all of them have been disappointing in one way or another those past decades. People vote for the presidential because that's the most important election in our regime, then ~half of them turn away from intermediary elections (except municipal elections which still have a decent turnout) because "it will change nothing" and/or they don't want to legitimate a system in which they don't believe.


Legitimacy is understandable argument. I also understand the "It will change nothing" mentality. But it can actually change something in first world countries. I don't think Macron will say "Lets renew it because i don't like the results" if he loses elections. That means votes can actually change something. Thats how democracies work. And believe it or not. France is looking waaaaaaaaaay more democratic what we suffer here.
Dün dündür, bugün bugündür. (Yesterday was yesterday, today is today)
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22209 Posts
May 25 2019 14:19 GMT
#24933
On May 25 2019 23:09 Aceace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2019 17:30 opisska wrote:
On May 25 2019 16:42 sharkie wrote:
On May 25 2019 15:53 Yurie wrote:
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote:
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.


The EU elections aren't published well enough. They also aren't run at the same time as the election people perceive as more important, their national ones.

Anybody commenting here can be assumed to vote since they care about politics. The ones not voting are also the same ones that wouldn't talk or read here.


Thats a weak excuse. Even national polls in most of Europe have at most around 70% participation. Here in Austria 70% is celebrated like christmas. Truth is just that there are just too many dumb people who dont care, also many many young people dont care. This happens when a generation grows up with no problems and no worries. The biggest worry the kids who grow up now is how well they look at snapchat


And is that really so bad? People don't really have any issues, so they don't feel the need to do anything about anything. Most of the candidates are also pretty similar anyway and the differences that are made into campaign points are so minor that a lot of voters just don't care.

I think it's much more important that people go to vote in Turkey, where there is a legitimate chance to oust a dictator, or at least to make his life harder, but the low participation in stable EU countries really hurting much beyond the feels of those who get off in the evening over the greatness of modern democracy.


Naah. One man regime is waaay different then regular democracies. We don't vote to oust our beloved presidente. We vote because we want to show how much we love him.

https://oefresearch.org/think-peace/when-dictators-lose-elections

With that in mind, the third panel shows us that only 12 percent of dictators will make the decision to leave office after facing such a loss, with 88 percent ignoring the results and maintaining their control of the government.

After all.. If he doesn't like the results he can just renew it. He did it 2 times already. (In June 2015 general elections and in lstanbul municipal elections.)

Show nested quote +
On May 25 2019 18:39 TheDwf wrote:
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote:
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%.


God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote.

Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one.

Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights.

In France most people reject the political system and all parties, because all of them have been disappointing in one way or another those past decades. People vote for the presidential because that's the most important election in our regime, then ~half of them turn away from intermediary elections (except municipal elections which still have a decent turnout) because "it will change nothing" and/or they don't want to legitimate a system in which they don't believe.


Legitimacy is understandable argument. I also understand the "It will change nothing" mentality. But it can actually change something in first world countries. I don't think Macron will say "Lets renew it because i don't like the results" if he loses elections. That means that actually change something. Thats how democracies work. And believe it or not. France is looking waaaaaaaaaay more democratic what we suffer here.
I don't think that he means 'it will change nothing' because they won't leave office but because it doesn't matter if you vote for X, Y or Z because despite all being from different parties the end result will be roughly the same, aka not taking care of the common people.

More of a 'I don't care to vote because no matter who I vote for they will all fuck me over while helping out their rich donors'.

Democracy is one of those freedoms that is easy to take for granted when you have never experienced anything else. A lot of people don't recognise how important voting is because they can't imagine living in a world where it doesn't exist.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 25 2019 14:49 GMT
#24934
I still really don't get it: what is the problem with people not voting in countries that have fully functional democracies? If you don't care one way or the other, why is it so irrationally important for some people that you vote anyway? Of course once you see that the country is heading into a wrong direction, you should go and vote against it, but how is that affected by your track record in attending previous elections? Nobody is slowly shrinking the voting rooms according to the attendance ...
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
12079 Posts
May 25 2019 14:54 GMT
#24935
On May 25 2019 23:49 opisska wrote:
I still really don't get it: what is the problem with people not voting in countries that have fully functional democracies? If you don't care one way or the other, why is it so irrationally important for some people that you vote anyway? Of course once you see that the country is heading into a wrong direction, you should go and vote against it, but how is that affected by your track record in attending previous elections? Nobody is slowly shrinking the voting rooms according to the attendance ...


It is a decent measurement on how engaged the population is in politics at all. If 40% vote, then that is the same as saying ~60% of the population isn't engaging in the current system.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 25 2019 15:03 GMT
#24936
On May 25 2019 23:09 Aceace wrote:
Legitimacy is understandable argument. I also understand the "It will change nothing" mentality. But it can actually change something in first world countries. I don't think Macron will say "Lets renew it because i don't like the results" if he loses elections. That means that actually change something. Thats how democracies work. And believe it or not. France is looking waaaaaaaaaay more democratic what we suffer here.

After Macron loses tomorrow, he will fire a few ministers next week and move on. Of course he won't cancel the elections because the results didn't please him, but he won't change his policies.

This time it could make a bit more fuss since Macron is already weak and was stupid enough to commit to the campaign, we'll see tomorrow. If he lags behind the far-right too much (3+ points), there will be media noise for sure.

It can be difficult to understand from your position, but voting is simply not a miracle solution to get change, it's a tool which may or may not be pertinent depending on the situation.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22209 Posts
May 25 2019 15:04 GMT
#24937
On May 25 2019 23:49 opisska wrote:
I still really don't get it: what is the problem with people not voting in countries that have fully functional democracies? If you don't care one way or the other, why is it so irrationally important for some people that you vote anyway? Of course once you see that the country is heading into a wrong direction, you should go and vote against it, but how is that affected by your track record in attending previous elections? Nobody is slowly shrinking the voting rooms according to the attendance ...
The initial question why people don't vote came from someone from Turkey, a country that no longer really appears to have a functional Democracy.
I don't think its odd at all that someone without Democracy is perplexed that some of us who do have Democracy don't give a shit about it.

The same way that a starving child from Africa would look at the mountains of food we throw away because we made to much and wonder why on earth you would throw away all that food.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
PoulsenB
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland7735 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-25 16:09:52
May 25 2019 16:09 GMT
#24938
On May 25 2019 23:49 opisska wrote:
I still really don't get it: what is the problem with people not voting in countries that have fully functional democracies? If you don't care one way or the other, why is it so irrationally important for some people that you vote anyway? Of course once you see that the country is heading into a wrong direction, you should go and vote against it, but how is that affected by your track record in attending previous elections? Nobody is slowly shrinking the voting rooms according to the attendance ...

If 60% of people don't vote then the government is chosen by a minority, and that minority is usually more radical because radicals care much more about voting for their champions. Like in Poland PiS came to power getting like 12% votes out of all people allowed to vote, basically the 12% decided for the remaining 88%. I'm not particulary fond of any of our parties right now, but I'm going to the urn tommorow regardless because voting is the core of democracy. If people don't vote, that "fully functional democracy" you speak of will degrede and become disfuncional.
IdrA fan forever <3 || the clueless one || Marci must be protected at all costs
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 25 2019 16:16 GMT
#24939
On May 26 2019 01:09 PoulsenB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2019 23:49 opisska wrote:
I still really don't get it: what is the problem with people not voting in countries that have fully functional democracies? If you don't care one way or the other, why is it so irrationally important for some people that you vote anyway? Of course once you see that the country is heading into a wrong direction, you should go and vote against it, but how is that affected by your track record in attending previous elections? Nobody is slowly shrinking the voting rooms according to the attendance ...

If 60% of people don't vote then the government is chosen by a minority, and that minority is usually more radical because radicals care much more about voting for their champions. Like in Poland PiS came to power getting like 12% votes out of all people allowed to vote, basically the 12% decided for the remaining 88%. I'm not particulary fond of any of our parties right now, but I'm going to the urn tommorow regardless because voting is the core of democracy. If people don't vote, that "fully functional democracy" you speak of will degrede and become disfuncional.


But PiS is a clear example of the situation, when I would go vote. We have actually a similar situation in the Czech Republic, with a party which is ideologically very different from PiS, but their operational strategy of cementing power through overtaking of important institutions is quite similar, and thus I am quite motivated to vote. But let's face it, neither of our countries is a very mature deomcracy. All I am saying is that in the case of elections where there is no glaringly problematic force on the rise and thus all the options lead to a rather similar government, low voter turnout is not hurting democracy. It doesn't matter that the government is chosen by a minority of the rest of people are happy with it and if them not voting was their free decision.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9290 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-25 16:36:16
May 25 2019 16:34 GMT
#24940
Low voter turnout doesn't directly hurt democracy, but entails a risk of all those usually uninterested ignorants coming to polling stations one day and electing someone that promises them whatever they think they want. It's not something bad, it's a sign that something else isn't working correctly.
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