EPT
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1247
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
| ||
|
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On May 23 2019 03:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Relic of the cold war actually. East Europe is a pretty meaningless label that doesn't denote anything other than being an "other" from "West Europe" anyways. I think there's cultural similarities that can be found even if the reason why they're held might differ from country to country. There's a larger scepticism towards liberal democracy in particular in the countries with a communist history, there's a clear difference on the role of religion and family in public life, on multiculturalism and gay rights among some other things. It's painting with a broad brush of course but as a concept it's not meaningless. And I don't think it's just a "outside looking in" view from Western Europe either. As they've grown economically central and eastern European countries have started to take it on as a political identity themselves. If anything positioning themselves in opposition to the Western half of the continent seems as popular as it is the other way around. | ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
I guess it really helped that Frans Timmermans was the frontman he was by far the most well known, but still such big difference in 2 years. Ruttes liberals got 15 percent and christian conservatives are around 12 percent Nexit supporting alt right party got 11 percent. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10811 Posts
Welcome Australia, Aserbaidschan, Kasachstan and others. Everyone is happy to have you, please don't make a mess. | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%. The last polls give the following average score for the 6 lists above 5% (below you don't get any MP): FN (far-right): 25% Macron: 22,7% LR (right): 12,8% FI (left): 8,3% EELV (ecologists): 8,2% PS ("social-democrats"): 5% The PS might not have elected representatives for the first time since... ever (1979). | ||
|
Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
Participation should be somewhere between 42 and 45%. God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote. Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one. Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights. | ||
|
Yurie
11932 Posts
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote: God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote. Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one. Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights. The EU elections aren't published well enough. They also aren't run at the same time as the election people perceive as more important, their national ones. Anybody commenting here can be assumed to vote since they care about politics. The ones not voting are also the same ones that wouldn't talk or read here. | ||
|
sharkie
Austria18524 Posts
On May 25 2019 15:53 Yurie wrote: The EU elections aren't published well enough. They also aren't run at the same time as the election people perceive as more important, their national ones. Anybody commenting here can be assumed to vote since they care about politics. The ones not voting are also the same ones that wouldn't talk or read here. Thats a weak excuse. Even national polls in most of Europe have at most around 70% participation. Here in Austria 70% is celebrated like christmas. Truth is just that there are just too many dumb people who dont care, also many many young people dont care. This happens when a generation grows up with no problems and no worries. The biggest worry the kids who grow up now is how well they look at snapchat | ||
|
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 25 2019 16:42 sharkie wrote: Thats a weak excuse. Even national polls in most of Europe have at most around 70% participation. Here in Austria 70% is celebrated like christmas. Truth is just that there are just too many dumb people who dont care, also many many young people dont care. This happens when a generation grows up with no problems and no worries. The biggest worry the kids who grow up now is how well they look at snapchat And is that really so bad? People don't really have any issues, so they don't feel the need to do anything about anything. Most of the candidates are also pretty similar anyway and the differences that are made into campaign points are so minor that a lot of voters just don't care. I think it's much more important that people go to vote in Turkey, where there is a legitimate chance to oust a dictator, or at least to make his life harder, but the low participation in stable EU countries really hurting much beyond the feels of those who get off in the evening over the greatness of modern democracy. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Currently we are solving migration topics that have been ventilated in the 1980s and 1990s, but weren't dealt with back then because we had to wait for older generations to die. 20 years from now we will have a very angry majority generation that will violently attack climate change. That is when the antimigration generation will finally be on their deathbeds. That is why many people don't vote. Changing things in this enviroment is very hard, because most people just vote for parties like they support football clubs. | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 25 2019 11:24 Aceace wrote: God i just don't understand... I don't live in a democracy. Hell its pretty safe to say i live in a "one man regime" Yet i didn't miss a vote. Why first world countries does have very low participation? You are a far right? Go for FN. You want give another shot to Macron? Go for him. You don't like any of them? Then vote for least hated one. Just vote... People fought and died for voting rights. In France most people reject the political system and all parties, because all of them have been disappointing in one way or another those past decades. People vote for the presidential because that's the most important election in our regime, then ~half of them turn away from intermediary elections (except municipal elections which still have a decent turnout) because "it will change nothing" and/or they don't want to legitimate a system in which they don't believe. | ||
|
Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
On May 25 2019 17:30 opisska wrote: And is that really so bad? People don't really have any issues, so they don't feel the need to do anything about anything. Most of the candidates are also pretty similar anyway and the differences that are made into campaign points are so minor that a lot of voters just don't care. I think it's much more important that people go to vote in Turkey, where there is a legitimate chance to oust a dictator, or at least to make his life harder, but the low participation in stable EU countries really hurting much beyond the feels of those who get off in the evening over the greatness of modern democracy. Naah. One man regime is waaay different then regular democracies. We don't vote to oust our beloved presidente. We vote because we want to show how much we love him. https://oefresearch.org/think-peace/when-dictators-lose-elections With that in mind, the third panel shows us that only 12 percent of dictators will make the decision to leave office after facing such a loss, with 88 percent ignoring the results and maintaining their control of the government. After all.. If he doesn't like the results he can just renew it. He did it 2 times already. (In June 2015 general elections and in lstanbul municipal elections.) On May 25 2019 18:39 TheDwf wrote: In France most people reject the political system and all parties, because all of them have been disappointing in one way or another those past decades. People vote for the presidential because that's the most important election in our regime, then ~half of them turn away from intermediary elections (except municipal elections which still have a decent turnout) because "it will change nothing" and/or they don't want to legitimate a system in which they don't believe. Legitimacy is understandable argument. I also understand the "It will change nothing" mentality. But it can actually change something in first world countries. I don't think Macron will say "Lets renew it because i don't like the results" if he loses elections. That means votes can actually change something. Thats how democracies work. And believe it or not. France is looking waaaaaaaaaay more democratic what we suffer here. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21962 Posts
On May 25 2019 23:09 Aceace wrote: I don't think that he means 'it will change nothing' because they won't leave office but because it doesn't matter if you vote for X, Y or Z because despite all being from different parties the end result will be roughly the same, aka not taking care of the common people.Naah. One man regime is waaay different then regular democracies. We don't vote to oust our beloved presidente. We vote because we want to show how much we love him. https://oefresearch.org/think-peace/when-dictators-lose-elections With that in mind, the third panel shows us that only 12 percent of dictators will make the decision to leave office after facing such a loss, with 88 percent ignoring the results and maintaining their control of the government. After all.. If he doesn't like the results he can just renew it. He did it 2 times already. (In June 2015 general elections and in lstanbul municipal elections.) Legitimacy is understandable argument. I also understand the "It will change nothing" mentality. But it can actually change something in first world countries. I don't think Macron will say "Lets renew it because i don't like the results" if he loses elections. That means that actually change something. Thats how democracies work. And believe it or not. France is looking waaaaaaaaaay more democratic what we suffer here. More of a 'I don't care to vote because no matter who I vote for they will all fuck me over while helping out their rich donors'. Democracy is one of those freedoms that is easy to take for granted when you have never experienced anything else. A lot of people don't recognise how important voting is because they can't imagine living in a world where it doesn't exist. | ||
|
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
| ||
|
Yurie
11932 Posts
On May 25 2019 23:49 opisska wrote: I still really don't get it: what is the problem with people not voting in countries that have fully functional democracies? If you don't care one way or the other, why is it so irrationally important for some people that you vote anyway? Of course once you see that the country is heading into a wrong direction, you should go and vote against it, but how is that affected by your track record in attending previous elections? Nobody is slowly shrinking the voting rooms according to the attendance ... It is a decent measurement on how engaged the population is in politics at all. If 40% vote, then that is the same as saying ~60% of the population isn't engaging in the current system. | ||
|
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 25 2019 23:09 Aceace wrote: Legitimacy is understandable argument. I also understand the "It will change nothing" mentality. But it can actually change something in first world countries. I don't think Macron will say "Lets renew it because i don't like the results" if he loses elections. That means that actually change something. Thats how democracies work. And believe it or not. France is looking waaaaaaaaaay more democratic what we suffer here. After Macron loses tomorrow, he will fire a few ministers next week and move on. Of course he won't cancel the elections because the results didn't please him, but he won't change his policies. This time it could make a bit more fuss since Macron is already weak and was stupid enough to commit to the campaign, we'll see tomorrow. If he lags behind the far-right too much (3+ points), there will be media noise for sure. It can be difficult to understand from your position, but voting is simply not a miracle solution to get change, it's a tool which may or may not be pertinent depending on the situation. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21962 Posts
On May 25 2019 23:49 opisska wrote: The initial question why people don't vote came from someone from Turkey, a country that no longer really appears to have a functional Democracy. I still really don't get it: what is the problem with people not voting in countries that have fully functional democracies? If you don't care one way or the other, why is it so irrationally important for some people that you vote anyway? Of course once you see that the country is heading into a wrong direction, you should go and vote against it, but how is that affected by your track record in attending previous elections? Nobody is slowly shrinking the voting rooms according to the attendance ... I don't think its odd at all that someone without Democracy is perplexed that some of us who do have Democracy don't give a shit about it. The same way that a starving child from Africa would look at the mountains of food we throw away because we made to much and wonder why on earth you would throw away all that food. | ||
|
PoulsenB
Poland7712 Posts
On May 25 2019 23:49 opisska wrote: I still really don't get it: what is the problem with people not voting in countries that have fully functional democracies? If you don't care one way or the other, why is it so irrationally important for some people that you vote anyway? Of course once you see that the country is heading into a wrong direction, you should go and vote against it, but how is that affected by your track record in attending previous elections? Nobody is slowly shrinking the voting rooms according to the attendance ... If 60% of people don't vote then the government is chosen by a minority, and that minority is usually more radical because radicals care much more about voting for their champions. Like in Poland PiS came to power getting like 12% votes out of all people allowed to vote, basically the 12% decided for the remaining 88%. I'm not particulary fond of any of our parties right now, but I'm going to the urn tommorow regardless because voting is the core of democracy. If people don't vote, that "fully functional democracy" you speak of will degrede and become disfuncional. | ||
|
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On May 26 2019 01:09 PoulsenB wrote: If 60% of people don't vote then the government is chosen by a minority, and that minority is usually more radical because radicals care much more about voting for their champions. Like in Poland PiS came to power getting like 12% votes out of all people allowed to vote, basically the 12% decided for the remaining 88%. I'm not particulary fond of any of our parties right now, but I'm going to the urn tommorow regardless because voting is the core of democracy. If people don't vote, that "fully functional democracy" you speak of will degrede and become disfuncional. But PiS is a clear example of the situation, when I would go vote. We have actually a similar situation in the Czech Republic, with a party which is ideologically very different from PiS, but their operational strategy of cementing power through overtaking of important institutions is quite similar, and thus I am quite motivated to vote. But let's face it, neither of our countries is a very mature deomcracy. All I am saying is that in the case of elections where there is no glaringly problematic force on the rise and thus all the options lead to a rather similar government, low voter turnout is not hurting democracy. It doesn't matter that the government is chosen by a minority of the rest of people are happy with it and if them not voting was their free decision. | ||
|
Sent.
Poland9251 Posts
| ||
| ||
