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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On June 17 2018 18:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2018 18:40 TheDwf wrote:It goes on. Italy bars two more refugee ships from ports
Matteo Salvini says Lifeline and Seefuchs ships will have to land migrants elsewhere
Italy’s interior minister has sparked a new migration crisis in the Mediterranean by barring two rescue boats from bringing refugees to shore, a week after the Aquarius was prevented from docking.
“Two other ships with the flag of Netherlands, Lifeline and Seefuchs, have arrived off the coast of Libya, waiting for their load of human beings abandoned by the smugglers,” Matteo Salvini, the leader of the anti-immigrant party the League, wrote on his Facebook page. “These gentlemen know that Italy no longer wants to be complicit in the business of illegal immigration, and therefore will have to look for other ports [not Italian] where to go.”
(...) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/16/italy-bars-two-more-refugee-ships-from-ports Hm. If these are Dutch ships, this could spark another little fight in the EU. No clue how maritime borders are organized, but I suspect the Dutch government won't be very happy about Italy barring Dutch ships from entering their ports. The current Dutch government is center right, and while I'd expect the VVD (majority partner in the coalition) doesn't really give a shit what Italy does at its borders, the D66 and CDA should, ideologically, be opposed to Italy stopping migrant ships. And D66 should definitely be opposed to Italy doing anything to block EU open border policies (and so should the VVD, but they foresook their liberal principles ages ago).
Dutch government getting involved like this would be even worse (or better - for Salvini's polling numbers) than Macron attempting to take the moral high ground few days ago, and that's assuming your interpretetation of how the freedom of movement is supposed to work is correct, which I'm convinced is not.
Netherlands: Hey Italy, we're shipping you refugees we picked up on the Libyan coast, please take care of them, thanks.
Italy: No.
Netherlands: You can't say "no". The ship is Dutch, so it can enter your ports regardless of whom it's carrying on board.
Italy: Since you are bringing them here, you are going to grant them all asylum and pay for everything they will need, right?
Netherlands: No, that's your problem, bye!
That's just asking for an Italian Orban.
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On June 17 2018 21:06 sc-darkness wrote:France is building wall around the Eiffel Tower to protect people from terrorist attacks. It seems to me that fear got the best of them. Treating symptoms rather the root cause isn't a solution.  What are they going to do next? Build a wall in every neighbourhood? Yes, people will feel safer but do you really want to live in a society which builds walls and has security checks all the time? This is just fear and there has to be a better solution.
generally speaking; it's best to treat both symptoms and the root cause. Sometimes the root cause is very hard or impossible to cure, so treating symptoms is the best you can do. And certain palliative efforts to mitigate symptoms are sufficiently low cost that it's worth doing anyways while you work on the cure.
can't assess the particular merits in this case without more data.
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German Union parties CDU and CSU seem to be heading into confrontation. Thursday they had their first separated club meeting in 60-years.
Today the CSU is leaking internal statements form CSU homeland minister Seehofer, that "He can't work any longer with that woman.", meaning CDU chancellor Angela Merkel. And today Seehofer has published a guest commentary in Germany's leading right-wing burgeoise paper FAZ in which he argues for his "masterplan migration".
Background is that Seehofer wants to reject all refugees at the German border, Merkel does not. So Seehofer is threatening to implement that by ministral orders tomorrow. The situation could escalate.
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Just swap the CSU out and the Greens in or something, I'm really tired of Horst Seehofers crap
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I won't be surprised if people call him fascist. That's the usual left-wing speech, right? Because being against completely open borders is fascist.
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On June 18 2018 00:27 Big J wrote:
German Union parties CDU and CSU seem to be heading into confrontation. Thursday they had their first separated club meeting in 60-years.
Today the CSU is leaking internal statements form CSU homeland minister Seehofer, that "He can't work any longer with that woman.", meaning CDU chancellor Angela Merkel. And today Seehofer has published a guest commentary in Germany's leading right-wing burgeoise paper FAZ in which he argues for his "masterplan migration".
Background is that Seehofer wants to reject all refugees at the German border, Merkel does not. So Seehofer is threatening to implement that by ministral orders tomorrow. The situation could escalate.
And for those who wonder about the background:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_state_election,_2018
On June 18 2018 00:35 sc-darkness wrote:I won't be surprised if people call him fascist. That's the usual left-wing speech, right? Because being against completely open borders is fascist.
Don't be a troll please
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I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc?
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On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc?
I would love so much living in your world where left-wing thought is dominant in migratory policies, where can I enter that alternative reality?
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On June 18 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? I would love so much living in your world where left-wing thought is dominant in migratory policies, where can I enter that alternative reality?
Well, you're already living in it and it's not alternative. The west has so many immigrants from outside Europe. Is that not enough or do you want looser immigration control?
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On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc?
Which left wing person thinks there should be 'completely open' borders?
I don't believe I have ever in my entire life heard a left wing politician say such a thing. I've heard lots of right wing people say it ad nauseum, but strangely, never seen it from an actual left wing politician. I can say with authority that's never been the policy in Britain, not in the entirety of the Labour Party, Lib Dem or Green Party's history.
I'm not aware of the American Democrats proposing such a thing, either.
What about your own country?
On June 18 2018 00:43 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? I would love so much living in your world where left-wing thought is dominant in migratory policies, where can I enter that alternative reality? Well, you're already living in it and it's not alternative. The west has so many immigrants from outside Europe. Is that not enough or do you want looser immigration control?
You... do know why there was an immigrant uptick, right? That it's not the consequence of normal immigration policy but a certain, particular, special thing happening?
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On June 18 2018 00:35 sc-darkness wrote:I won't be surprised if people call him fascist. That's the usual left-wing speech, right? Because being against completely open borders is fascist.
No, it's a state action. So obviously he is a communist. Typical far-right speech.
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sc-brightness won't be surprised this time!
https://www.politico.eu/article/austrias-sebastian-kurz-wants-axis-of-willing-against-illegal-migration/Austria’s conservative leader Sebastian Kurz called Wednesday for an “axis of the willing against illegal migration” between Italy, Germany and his own country. Speaking alongside German Interior Minister Horst Seehofer, a Bavarian conservative who shares the Austrian chancellor’s views on tightening up Europe’s borders, Kurz said fighting illegal immigration would be a top priority for Vienna’s presidency of the Council of the EU in the second half of 2018. (...) Kurz’s meeting with Seehofer means the German minister was unable to attend Merkel’s “integration summit” happening the same day in Berlin. Referring to media reports that this was meant as a snub to the German leader, Seehofer said his reason for not attending was the presence of a journalist, Ferda Ataman, who has compared his policies on migration to the Nazis.
“I cannot be part of an integration summit where there is one participant who in an article compared my strategy on homeland to the homeland understanding of the Nazis,” Seehofer told reporters.
Axis, Germany, Austria, Italy... hehehe
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On June 18 2018 00:48 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? Which left wing person thinks there should be 'completely open' borders? I don't believe I have ever in my entire life heard a left wing politician say such a thing. I've heard lots of right wing people say it ad nauseum, but strangely, never seen it from an actual left wing politician. I can say with authority that's never been the policy in Britain, not in the entirety of the Labour Party, Lib Dem or Green Party's history. I'm not aware of the American Democrats proposing such a thing, either. What about your own country?
There are "no borders" militants in the far-left, and you can find some in the left, but otherwise yes it's a classical right-wing lie about the left
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On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc?
I mean the first improvement would be to stop spreading nonsense and suggesting that anybody wants completely open borders because that isn't the case. And btw nobody is going to call Horst Seehofer a fascist. In contrast to what you might believe, that label is usually reserved for people who sort of deserve it.
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On June 18 2018 00:48 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? Which left wing person thinks there should be 'completely open' borders? I don't believe I have ever in my entire life heard a left wing politician say such a thing. I've heard lots of right wing people say it ad nauseum, but strangely, never seen it from an actual left wing politician. I can say with authority that's never been the policy in Britain, not in the entirety of the Labour Party, Lib Dem or Green Party's history. I'm not aware of the American Democrats proposing such a thing, either. What about your own country? Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:43 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? I would love so much living in your world where left-wing thought is dominant in migratory policies, where can I enter that alternative reality? Well, you're already living in it and it's not alternative. The west has so many immigrants from outside Europe. Is that not enough or do you want looser immigration control? You... do know why there was an immigrant uptick, right? That it's not the consequence of normal immigration policy but a certain, particular, special thing happening?
Do you mean refugees? I just want less people screaming "Allahu Akbar" before they start killing. If that means tighter border control, then so be it. Border control isn't working at the moment, so something has to be done without someone being called fascist, xenophobe, etc.
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On June 18 2018 00:53 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:48 iamthedave wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? Which left wing person thinks there should be 'completely open' borders? I don't believe I have ever in my entire life heard a left wing politician say such a thing. I've heard lots of right wing people say it ad nauseum, but strangely, never seen it from an actual left wing politician. I can say with authority that's never been the policy in Britain, not in the entirety of the Labour Party, Lib Dem or Green Party's history. I'm not aware of the American Democrats proposing such a thing, either. What about your own country? On June 18 2018 00:43 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? I would love so much living in your world where left-wing thought is dominant in migratory policies, where can I enter that alternative reality? Well, you're already living in it and it's not alternative. The west has so many immigrants from outside Europe. Is that not enough or do you want looser immigration control? You... do know why there was an immigrant uptick, right? That it's not the consequence of normal immigration policy but a certain, particular, special thing happening? Do you mean refugees? I just want less of people screaming "Allahu Akbar" before they start killing. If that means tighter border control, then so be it. Border control isn't working at the moment, so something has to be done without someone being called fascist, xenophobe, etc.
Ah so terrorism comes from immigration now, thanks for showing your cards
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On June 18 2018 00:55 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:53 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:48 iamthedave wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? Which left wing person thinks there should be 'completely open' borders? I don't believe I have ever in my entire life heard a left wing politician say such a thing. I've heard lots of right wing people say it ad nauseum, but strangely, never seen it from an actual left wing politician. I can say with authority that's never been the policy in Britain, not in the entirety of the Labour Party, Lib Dem or Green Party's history. I'm not aware of the American Democrats proposing such a thing, either. What about your own country? On June 18 2018 00:43 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? I would love so much living in your world where left-wing thought is dominant in migratory policies, where can I enter that alternative reality? Well, you're already living in it and it's not alternative. The west has so many immigrants from outside Europe. Is that not enough or do you want looser immigration control? You... do know why there was an immigrant uptick, right? That it's not the consequence of normal immigration policy but a certain, particular, special thing happening? Do you mean refugees? I just want less of people screaming "Allahu Akbar" before they start killing. If that means tighter border control, then so be it. Border control isn't working at the moment, so something has to be done without someone being called fascist, xenophobe, etc. Ah so terrorism comes from immigration now, thanks for showing your cards
Yes, first generation or second generation immigrants and this is what media reports. I don't make it up. I can find a lot of links about it. Do you want to prove me wrong though? When did native population start committing terrorism? Or, you're going to mention Breivik in which case odds are not in your favour.
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On June 18 2018 00:58 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 18 2018 00:53 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:48 iamthedave wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? Which left wing person thinks there should be 'completely open' borders? I don't believe I have ever in my entire life heard a left wing politician say such a thing. I've heard lots of right wing people say it ad nauseum, but strangely, never seen it from an actual left wing politician. I can say with authority that's never been the policy in Britain, not in the entirety of the Labour Party, Lib Dem or Green Party's history. I'm not aware of the American Democrats proposing such a thing, either. What about your own country? On June 18 2018 00:43 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? I would love so much living in your world where left-wing thought is dominant in migratory policies, where can I enter that alternative reality? Well, you're already living in it and it's not alternative. The west has so many immigrants from outside Europe. Is that not enough or do you want looser immigration control? You... do know why there was an immigrant uptick, right? That it's not the consequence of normal immigration policy but a certain, particular, special thing happening? Do you mean refugees? I just want less of people screaming "Allahu Akbar" before they start killing. If that means tighter border control, then so be it. Border control isn't working at the moment, so something has to be done without someone being called fascist, xenophobe, etc. Ah so terrorism comes from immigration now, thanks for showing your cards Yes, first generation or second generation immigrants and this is what media reports. I don't make it up. I can find a lot of links about it. Do you want to prove me wrong though? When did native population start committing terrorism? Or, you're going to mention Breivik in which case odds are not in your favour.
Terror attacks against refugee centers in the past years in Germany:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/b7kvzia.png)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flüchtlingsfeindliche_Angriffe_in_der_Bundesrepublik_Deutschland
Green are the official numbers, blue the documented ones by some Pro Asyl society.
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On June 18 2018 01:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 00:58 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:55 TheDwf wrote:On June 18 2018 00:53 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:48 iamthedave wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? Which left wing person thinks there should be 'completely open' borders? I don't believe I have ever in my entire life heard a left wing politician say such a thing. I've heard lots of right wing people say it ad nauseum, but strangely, never seen it from an actual left wing politician. I can say with authority that's never been the policy in Britain, not in the entirety of the Labour Party, Lib Dem or Green Party's history. I'm not aware of the American Democrats proposing such a thing, either. What about your own country? On June 18 2018 00:43 sc-darkness wrote:On June 18 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:On June 18 2018 00:39 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm not trolling. I just don't understand why there can't be a second opinion about borders other than what left wing thinks which is completely open borders. What is a valid second opinion in that case without being called fascist, xenophobe, etc? I would love so much living in your world where left-wing thought is dominant in migratory policies, where can I enter that alternative reality? Well, you're already living in it and it's not alternative. The west has so many immigrants from outside Europe. Is that not enough or do you want looser immigration control? You... do know why there was an immigrant uptick, right? That it's not the consequence of normal immigration policy but a certain, particular, special thing happening? Do you mean refugees? I just want less of people screaming "Allahu Akbar" before they start killing. If that means tighter border control, then so be it. Border control isn't working at the moment, so something has to be done without someone being called fascist, xenophobe, etc. Ah so terrorism comes from immigration now, thanks for showing your cards Yes, first generation or second generation immigrants and this is what media reports. I don't make it up. I can find a lot of links about it. Do you want to prove me wrong though? When did native population start committing terrorism? Or, you're going to mention Breivik in which case odds are not in your favour. Terror attacks against refugee centers in the past years in Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flüchtlingsfeindliche_Angriffe_in_der_Bundesrepublik_DeutschlandGreen are the official numbers, blue the documented ones by some Pro Asyl society.
But it only counts as terror if you shout Allah akhbar!
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Fine, what's the definition of terror attacks in that case? The number is quite high so I doubt it's an attempt to murder all the time. Could it be also just harassment?
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EPT
