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On June 14 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:Macron is such a brilliant diplomat: cuddling Trump for months for no results, and now triggering a diplomatic quasi-crisis while he has literally ZERO moral high ground given his own migratory policy Show nested quote +On June 14 2018 00:38 Plansix wrote:
Takes hard-line stance on immigration, throws shade at the rest of the EU about the issue.
Summons ambassador the instant someone throws some shade in their direction. Salvini's move was obnoxious and irresponsible, but about France he's 100% right
If they all start publicly talking shit about how little everyone is doing, something might change. Heaven forbid they all have public hearings about the topic across the EU, hearing from everyone. People on the beaches helping immigrants. Doctors who go on the boats and find people drown 2 feet of water. People having to deal with all the criminal that surrounds some of the immigrant communities.
And I’m not big into France’s politics, but I think Macron fears giving the far right any ammo to make another bid for power. That isn’t a great excuse, really, but I get the fear. No immigrants get help once those folks are in power.
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On June 14 2018 00:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2018 00:41 TheDwf wrote:Macron is such a brilliant diplomat: cuddling Trump for months for no results, and now triggering a diplomatic quasi-crisis while he has literally ZERO moral high ground given his own migratory policy On June 14 2018 00:38 Plansix wrote:
Takes hard-line stance on immigration, throws shade at the rest of the EU about the issue.
Summons ambassador the instant someone throws some shade in their direction. Salvini's move was obnoxious and irresponsible, but about France he's 100% right If they all start publicly talking shit about how little everyone is doing, something might change. Heaven forbid they all have public hearings about the topic across the EU, hearing from everyone. People on the beaches helping immigrants. Doctors who go on the boats and find people drown 2 feet of water. People having to deal with all the criminal that surrounds some of the immigrant communities. And I’m not big into France’s politics, but I think Macron fears giving the far right any ammo to make another bid for power. That isn’t a great excuse, really, but I get the fear. No immigrants get help once those folks are in power.
Bah, the French far-right was already scoring 15% in the mid-80's and despite Macron having a restrictive and xenophobic policy, they still pretend that France is invaded and blablabla. Each time you enter into the far-right logic but apply some moderation to make it more presentable, you only strengthen them. Le Pen said that the boats of the NGOs saving migrants should be confiscated...
The French opinion is not at all completely anti-migrants (unlike in some countries) and if governments did some effort to present things as they are, instead of pretending that "all of Africa will come if we help those people!1!1!1!1" the majority of the population would understand and accept. Besides, Macron has no problems going against the opinion when he implements tax cuts for the rich. He even claims that impopularity is the sign of political courage. Fine then, take a leaf out of that book and apply it on refugees.
In the 6th world economy, in a country with 67 millions of people, is it so hard to take the 10 or 30k migrants on which France committed...
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To be clear, I never felt the excuse had any merit behind it. I agree that fearing the far right only gives them more room to push the limits. But I also never thought I would see the day where the Voter's Rights act was gutted in my country. Or that a neo-nazi would be the main challenger for a senator in my country. So I have stopped assuming things won't happen, because it seems that anything is possible.
And sadly when it comes to immigrants and numbers, it is all about perception rather than reality. If people perceive that refugees are flooding the country, that is their reality. It doesn't matter what the numbers are. Again, people in my country think crime is high and our nation is unsafe. We have never been safer as a nation.
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On June 14 2018 01:22 Plansix wrote:To be clear, I never felt the excuse had any merit behind it. I agree that fearing the far right only gives them more room to push the limits. But I also never thought I would see the day where the Voter's Rights act was gutted in my country. Or that a neo-nazi would be the main challenger for a senator in my country. So I have stopped assuming things won't happen, because it seems that anything is possible. And sadly when it comes to immigrants and numbers, it is all about perception rather than reality. If people perceive that refugees are flooding the country, that is their reality. It doesn't matter what the numbers are. Again, people in my country think crime is high and our nation is unsafe. We have never been safer as a nation.
I do wonder when the Republican rank and file - and in this thread - are going to start noticing the fairly obvious warning signs (Roy Moore, now this guy) and start worrying about the party's direction.
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On June 14 2018 01:40 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2018 01:22 Plansix wrote:To be clear, I never felt the excuse had any merit behind it. I agree that fearing the far right only gives them more room to push the limits. But I also never thought I would see the day where the Voter's Rights act was gutted in my country. Or that a neo-nazi would be the main challenger for a senator in my country. So I have stopped assuming things won't happen, because it seems that anything is possible. And sadly when it comes to immigrants and numbers, it is all about perception rather than reality. If people perceive that refugees are flooding the country, that is their reality. It doesn't matter what the numbers are. Again, people in my country think crime is high and our nation is unsafe. We have never been safer as a nation. I do wonder when the Republican rank and file - and in this thread - are going to start noticing the fairly obvious warning signs (Roy Moore, now this guy) and start worrying about the party's direction.
You're almost two decades late on that the republican party has been off track sense 9/11. Its hard to right the ship when you inexplicably keep winning for some reason.
Kinda like the Tories really.
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On June 14 2018 01:40 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2018 01:22 Plansix wrote:To be clear, I never felt the excuse had any merit behind it. I agree that fearing the far right only gives them more room to push the limits. But I also never thought I would see the day where the Voter's Rights act was gutted in my country. Or that a neo-nazi would be the main challenger for a senator in my country. So I have stopped assuming things won't happen, because it seems that anything is possible. And sadly when it comes to immigrants and numbers, it is all about perception rather than reality. If people perceive that refugees are flooding the country, that is their reality. It doesn't matter what the numbers are. Again, people in my country think crime is high and our nation is unsafe. We have never been safer as a nation. I do wonder when the Republican rank and file - and in this thread - are going to start noticing the fairly obvious warning signs (Roy Moore, now this guy) and start worrying about the party's direction.
A lot of Republicans have been talking about it, but this is the base they have been courting for years. That is the fear of these far right parties. Its not like they are going to go so far right they lose the election. It is that they court a bunch of racists and xenophobes and get voted into office. Because at some point they deal with that immigrant problem and then who do they go after? The last time these types of people were in power in the US, it took about two decades of protest, rioting and general unrest to address the problem. I doubt it would be that bad again, but its not a great prospect for any country.
On June 14 2018 01:46 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2018 01:40 iamthedave wrote:On June 14 2018 01:22 Plansix wrote:To be clear, I never felt the excuse had any merit behind it. I agree that fearing the far right only gives them more room to push the limits. But I also never thought I would see the day where the Voter's Rights act was gutted in my country. Or that a neo-nazi would be the main challenger for a senator in my country. So I have stopped assuming things won't happen, because it seems that anything is possible. And sadly when it comes to immigrants and numbers, it is all about perception rather than reality. If people perceive that refugees are flooding the country, that is their reality. It doesn't matter what the numbers are. Again, people in my country think crime is high and our nation is unsafe. We have never been safer as a nation. I do wonder when the Republican rank and file - and in this thread - are going to start noticing the fairly obvious warning signs (Roy Moore, now this guy) and start worrying about the party's direction. You're almost two decades late on that the republican party has been off track sense 9/11. Its hard to right the ship when you inexplicably keep winning for some reason. Kinda like the Tories really.
There has been a section of southern racist that has been keeping the flame alive since the 1960s and spreading it to new regions in the US. After Obama, they tapped that forbidden vein in 2010 and some of them never looked back. I don’t think Republicans really respected the whole birther conspiracy for what it was.
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On June 14 2018 01:40 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2018 01:22 Plansix wrote:To be clear, I never felt the excuse had any merit behind it. I agree that fearing the far right only gives them more room to push the limits. But I also never thought I would see the day where the Voter's Rights act was gutted in my country. Or that a neo-nazi would be the main challenger for a senator in my country. So I have stopped assuming things won't happen, because it seems that anything is possible. And sadly when it comes to immigrants and numbers, it is all about perception rather than reality. If people perceive that refugees are flooding the country, that is their reality. It doesn't matter what the numbers are. Again, people in my country think crime is high and our nation is unsafe. We have never been safer as a nation. I do wonder when the Republican rank and file - and in this thread - are going to start noticing the fairly obvious warning signs (Roy Moore, now this guy) and start worrying about the party's direction. The human mind is really good at seeing obvious issues and explaining them away because you prefer to not see what is happening in front of you.
If Trump and this congress doesn't make you second guess voting Republican I don't see how anything else will.
So... never?
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I'm with Italy on this one. They're no longer refugees once they leave the first country they cross. They're just economic immigrants.
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By the way, Macron answered Salvini:
"We have been working hand in hand with Italy for one year. We have divided by ten the arrivals. (...) Who would I be if I told the one who provokes, the one who seeks provocation, the one who says 'I am stronger than democrats, and I chase away boats near my coasts', if I gave reason to him? Would it help the democrats? Let us not forget who talked to us (...). Let us not forget, because we have the same ones [here]."
This is why the notion of "populism" is so useful: it allows "mainstream" politicians to discredit people who actually have the same policies as them, while appearing like the "white knights of liberal democracy".
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On June 14 2018 02:41 sc-darkness wrote:
I'm with Italy on this one. They're no longer refugees once they leave the first country they cross. They're just economic immigrants.
The problem is that the 600 “migrants” might not all be there for economic reasons and they are in a boat that will sink, rather than return home. If some of these folks need to go home, the first thing that needs to happen is the ship needs to dock at a port. Then the 600 people can be reviewed to see who can stay and who has to go home. Italy wants someone else to do that job, even though the ship might make it to other ports safely.
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TheDwf, we basically hate each other on every topic but I can only envy being you right now. How much fun are you having with Macron's declaration? I was looking at the news tonight and thinking if the guy was suffering from Alzheimer. One month ago France refused a pregnant, sick woman at the border and had her die in a hospital - today I had to hear Macron say 'I wouldn't refuse a ship' ??????????????? LOL.
Sky Tg Italy did a survey today asking if Macron should take some immigrants and apologize. The results? 95% in favour of it. I don't think I ever saw such a one-sided response in a democratic state.
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On June 13 2018 14:17 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2018 11:14 Nyxisto wrote:
you can probably find some anti-elitist or anti-European or anti-immigration sentiment everywhere, but notice what they all have in common? The phrase 'anti', the only thing that unites them across the board is the opposition to particular topics. That might hold together as long as you're only the party of opposition, but it is not the basis for an actual coherent ideological, long-term goal oriented politics.
That's why Boris Johnson looked disappointed as soon as the Brexit vote came in victorious and why the AfD avoids being a party that can govern at all costs, holding responsibility in office is a very different task compared to criticizing the status quo.
Most populist parties are not just populist in the sense of appealing to public sentiment, they do it in a purely destructive way. Okay, so the EU is gone, what exactly do we do then? How do all of the EU countries face Russia, China and the USA? There's no model or answer to that question, all you get is kitsch about European cultures living in harmony without immigrants and bureaucrats in Brussels And what’s more populist than “our rulers have messed up big time and serve their own interests?” You’re just not thinking your proposition through. You say there’s no essence of common interest, but you ignore all the major ones (and disparage their chances of success.) You say it isn’t even worth talking with them, but want to speak for them at every turn. I see your position to be overflowing with contradictions. One of the ways I’d gather you have a good grasp of things (all populist movements are not equal) is to talk in less of these platitudes like “they’re just anti” and “this is how I judge his disappointed look” and “they do it in a purely destructive way.” You could know jack shit about your subject matter and rattle off the same boiler plate anti-populism diatribes ... just as fast and with similar convictions as they can do a number on the EU and migrants.
How is it my job to talk about the platform of populist parties if they can't even formulate one? The leader of the AfD is a lesbian woman living in Switzerland with an adopted kid who employs a refugee at home while her party campaigns against same sex marriage and refugees, one of the heads of the Brexit campaign just applied for residency in France, and I'm the one with contradiction problems?
These people aren't doing anything in good faith, it would be naive and foolish to take them more seriously than they deserve to be. When one of their prominent members called the Nazi regime a 'flyspeck of history' in the German parliament just a few days ago, do you think this is done in good faith? Am I supposed to eat all these provocations up and take them seriously?
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On June 14 2018 03:31 SoSexy wrote:
TheDwf, we basically hate each other on every topic but I can only envy being you right now. How much fun are you having with Macron's declaration? I was looking at the news tonight and thinking if the guy was suffering from Alzheimer. One month ago France refused a pregnant, sick woman at the border and had her die in a hospital - today I had to hear Macron say 'I wouldn't refuse a ship' ??????????????? LOL.
Sky Tg Italy did a survey today asking if Macron should take some immigrants and apologize. The results? 95% in favour of it. I don't think I ever saw such a one-sided response in a democratic state.
And already three corpses of migrants were recently found near the Franco-Italian border...
Macron clearly decided the confrontation with your government, in fact that's perhaps the reason he didn't want to welcome the Aquarius (because he doesn't want to "give in"). For some reason he seems convinced that France did its part and obviously thinks he has the moral high ground.
I heard that Conte wants to cancel the scheduled meeting with Macron this week?
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Macron is something of a shameless opportunist. It’s hard to be upset on a daily basis about him being the type of person he’s already consistently shown himself to be.
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On June 14 2018 03:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2018 03:31 SoSexy wrote:
TheDwf, we basically hate each other on every topic but I can only envy being you right now. How much fun are you having with Macron's declaration? I was looking at the news tonight and thinking if the guy was suffering from Alzheimer. One month ago France refused a pregnant, sick woman at the border and had her die in a hospital - today I had to hear Macron say 'I wouldn't refuse a ship' ??????????????? LOL.
Sky Tg Italy did a survey today asking if Macron should take some immigrants and apologize. The results? 95% in favour of it. I don't think I ever saw such a one-sided response in a democratic state. And already three corpses of migrants were recently found near the Franco-Italian border... Macron clearly decided the confrontation with your government, in fact that's perhaps the reason he didn't want to welcome the Aquarius (because he doesn't want to "give in"). For some reason he seems convinced that France did its part and obviously thinks he has the moral high ground. I heard that Conte wants to cancel the scheduled meeting with Macron this week?
Sorry, editing my post cause i misunderstood. It's not clear - probably he will cancel it, or he will go but not meet Macron. Conte wants Macron to apologize
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On June 14 2018 04:15 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2018 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On June 14 2018 03:31 SoSexy wrote:
TheDwf, we basically hate each other on every topic but I can only envy being you right now. How much fun are you having with Macron's declaration? I was looking at the news tonight and thinking if the guy was suffering from Alzheimer. One month ago France refused a pregnant, sick woman at the border and had her die in a hospital - today I had to hear Macron say 'I wouldn't refuse a ship' ??????????????? LOL.
Sky Tg Italy did a survey today asking if Macron should take some immigrants and apologize. The results? 95% in favour of it. I don't think I ever saw such a one-sided response in a democratic state. And already three corpses of migrants were recently found near the Franco-Italian border... Macron clearly decided the confrontation with your government, in fact that's perhaps the reason he didn't want to welcome the Aquarius (because he doesn't want to "give in"). For some reason he seems convinced that France did its part and obviously thinks he has the moral high ground. I heard that Conte wants to cancel the scheduled meeting with Macron this week? Sorry, editing my post cause i misunderstood. It's not clear - probably he will cancel it, or he will go but not meet Macron. Conte wants Macron to apologize
L'espoir fait vivre, as we say in France—hope is what makes us live.
Some news from Macron's social policy:
- A few weeks ago, the majority voted a law which, among various bad things, lowers from 100 to 10% the number of new housing (with more than 4 floors) accessible to handicapped people. All oppositions and the associations representing disabled people were against this regression. Macronists promised that new homes would be "evolutionary"!
- For a few weeks, there has been a little media campaign on "social welfare". Some ministers made contradictory statements, some of them saying that cuts were needed and "there were too many social aids," others that cuts should not be made on the back of poor people; some polls were done about whether French people thought there was too much welfare; Le Canard Enchaîné talked about a plan to cut 7 billions in social aids, the government denied, etc. Obviously the goal was to prepare the minds for cuts in social budgets.
Yesterday evening, Macron's PR staff published a video in which he discusses his speech today about his "social policy". + Show Spoiler + In the video he says: "The whole social system… We put too much money [he used familiar language for ''money'' in French], we deresponsibilize + Show Spoiler +not sure how to translate it, basically "we remove responsibility"
The social minima he refers to cost 25 billions per year, a bit more than 1% of the GDP, and benefit 7 millions of persons. Social redistribution in general reduces the poverty rate from 22 to 14%. So it does work, at least partially.
The way he talks in the video reminds me of Trump's tweets. Same pseudo-virile vulgarity from the guy with big muscles who will miraculously change stuff. Poor France, which was told it had elected a modern social-liberal centrist and finds itself ruled by a reactionary bourgeois of the XIXth century à la Malthus…
All of this comes as Le Canard Enchaîné says that the presidency bought 500 000€ of tableware for a bit more than 1200 plates. Apparently the money tree is not void of fruits for everyone.
On the positive side, Macron announced that by 2021, there will be a 100% reimbursed offer for basic glasses, some dental care and hearing devices. But complementary health insurances will probably raise their prices to compensate.
The minister of Economy also announced 15 billions of privatization (Engie, the FDJ and Paris Aéroport). If some of you are interested in buying France, or what remains of it, it will probably be for sale in the few next years. Temperate climate, good infrastructures, decent demography: I recommend you to buy, you won't regret it.
There is a growing critique within the very majority that Macron's policy is too right-leaning. Some advocate a "social turn". The refusal to help the Aquarius—against all facts, ministers were still lying this morning about Valencia being closer to French ports—and now this ''we have to make the poor responsible'' show, if further proof was needed, that Macron has decided to definitively storm the right and camp there. Elected with half of his votes coming from the nominal center-left, he is abandoning this side to hunt the right-wing electorate. Fairly understandable in the end: in the presidential there were 27% of votes at his left and 48% to his right. He could not really siphon further from the left, while there is plenty of future in the right. But the question is, how will the ~4 millions of ''center-left'' voters who chose Macron react to 5 years of a right-wing policy?
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On June 14 2018 04:39 TheDwf wrote:
Obviously the goal was to prepare the minds for cuts in social budgets.
It's worth noticing, for people not used to french politics, that this is the usual way to proceed for french governments for like 2 or 3 decades, spam the "press" (because, really, most french press is behaving like PR, one way or another) with rumors and then proceed with the law propositions.
This gov. overused this approach, and quite "grossly" I must say.
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On June 14 2018 03:52 LegalLord wrote:
Macron is something of a shameless opportunist. It’s hard to be upset on a daily basis about him being the type of person he’s already consistently shown himself to be.
Macron was still the better president to elect though. Le Pen wanted France to exit the EU.
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I think it would have been a much better election if Valls or Hamon would have faced off against Macron, would have probably confronted him more strongly on the social issues which Macron seems weak on now.
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On June 14 2018 05:20 Nyxisto wrote:
I think it would have been a much better election if Valls or Hamon would have faced off against Macron, would have probably confronted him more strongly on the social issues which Macron seems weak on now.
Then they should have campaigned better in the first round. Also Valls is a sack of shit. He's basically Macron without the charisma.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfkFcKMXUAAcrgf.jpg)
