EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1125
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 12 2018 21:23 LegalLord wrote: That number for 2015 is about as close to “all of Africa” as is feasible given the realities of migration. I am surprised to see that "all of something" now means "at most 0,08% of something" (actually even less since most were not from Africa). Brb contacting the dictionary editors so that the 2019 edition includes this new sense. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/44118kv.jpg) The unstoppable invasion of Europe by hords of African, 2015 — Source (p. 33) | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On June 12 2018 21:49 TheDwf wrote: I am surprised to see that "all of something" now means "at most 0,08% of something" (actually even less since most were not from Africa). Brb contacting the dictionary editors so that the 2019 edition includes this new sense. + Show Spoiler + The unstoppable invasion of Europe by hords of African, 2015 — Source (p. 33) Don’t be obtuse. Obviously it’s not “literally all of Africa” - and it was very clear that that was an exaggeration for effect. It’s still a truly massive amount of people and quite close to the maximum that could feasibly attempt the crossing. 0.08% on a gigantic base quantity is a lot of people. More than could be feasibly accommodated in this case. The Europeans that chose not to accept that burden on themselves were right to do so. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
If you don't want to discuss a point made then don't. If you want to make a different point then do that. But I think everybody and their mothers have had enough of this asshole populist approach - and that is what it is, people arguing like that being a disrespectful asshole to the ones they discuss with - of interpreting their own words in whatever way fits them afterwards. And if you go into the trap of discussing the reasonable part of it they just tell you that it is not what they said, never clarifying it. You want a meaningful discussion? Start it with a meaningful comment. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
As it stands, the populist approach of a strong, perhaps even callous, opposition to migration is far more serviceable than the previously reigning “open the floodgates” approach, and indeed the best approach is probably closer to the populist one than to “somewhere in the middle,” so they deserve credit there. The rest of the objection seems to boil down to a disdain for the strategic approach of populist rhetoric, which is understandable but sort of immaterial here. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I rather not be that. I rather take things literally and have someone clarify it and take back any accuses I made based on the knowledge I could possible have at that point, afterwards, than be a brainless agenda pushing hypocrit. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
More data, for those who are interested in facts: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfbCh_VXkAIUjg6.jpg) Salvini, like a true warrior, flexs his muscles when the battle is over. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dfa_GfbW4AECtx3.jpg) | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
On June 12 2018 21:44 SoSexy wrote: You are a lost cause, VHbb. I quoted facts from the Italian chamber of commerce, from the biggest mafia process in recent history and yet you pursue your agenda. Go on with it - but the majority of italians had enough of people like you. Fasten your seatbelt for the next five years. I'm not sure what 'agenda' I might be pushing.. look, I'm not 'conspiring' to discredit anyone's view, I'm just expressing sadness in front of something I personally see as inhuman behavior. I found *sad* that thanks to the incessant propaganda of Salvini and company, these views and acts are now seen as feats of strength, and necessary to fix a problematic situation. It's very worrying that, in order to gain votes in the current local elections, and strengthen his position, he's willing to gamble on people's lives. Not only that, but when he does it, he's seen as a hero from his strong electoral base. It gives you a clear message: he can do whatever he wants, no matter how cruel or inhuman, and he will always find justification and even support for it. That's scary. In front of this situation, I don't care how many refugees other countries took in, I don't care if Italy took in more than other countries: this is not a contest won by who show the least compassion for human lives. There's clearly a situation to be addressed, but rejecting refugees leaving them at sea is not a solution, it's an act of propaganda at the cost of some people nobody cares about, because they are just 'some other refugees'. It's hard to argue with conspiracy theorists: if you believe that ONG and other organizations are actively ferrying people from Africa to Italy, because there's some grand scheme of human traffic alimented by the 35euros per day, there's little left to say... clearly, the situation is problematic, and refugees are exploited once they get to Italy, so this needs to be addressed, but it's a long shot from believing in big conspiracies.. edit: thanks for the data TheDwf. It always seems that the situation is getting worse and worse, as this has been the main game of Salvini's electoral campaign ... 'we are on the edge', 'italian people have had enough', ... sure This rhetoric works well because people needs a motivation their racist feelings | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
When i was very young i belived that people are good and it is system that makes them behave badly. But as i grew older i switched to view that people are bad (in very specific sense of this word) by nature: racism, tribalism and egoism are natural and its the system that keep them in line. And when in democracy enough of tribsmen feel threatend the system bends to tribes will (as it is in democracy by design). We live in age when some people will have to choose between democracy and humanism. As it seems more and more likely that majority (at least in some countries) will choose its own well being over humanism. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 12 2018 23:41 Silvanel wrote: Or just maybe its the other way around? Populist are gaining strenght because they are promising exactly the things that general population wants? When i was very young i belived that people are good and it is system that makes them behave badly. But as i grew older i switched to view that people are bad (in very specific sense of this word) by nature: racism, tribalism and egoism are natural and its the system that keep them in line. And when in democracy enough of tribsmen feel threatend the system bends to tribes will (as it is in democracy by design). We live in age when some people will have to choose between democracy and humanism. As it seems more and more likely that majority (at least in some countries) will choose its own well being over humanism. When America was founding, the largest counter argument against democracy was the voters themselves. The founding father’s greatest fear wasn’t the British Empire across the sea, but a mob lead by a demagogue at home. It is the reason my nation, democracies that followed, have representative democracy, rather than a direct one. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On June 12 2018 23:30 VHbb wrote: I'm not sure what 'agenda' I might be pushing.. look, I'm not 'conspiring' to discredit anyone's view, I'm just expressing sadness in front of something I personally see as inhuman behavior. I found *sad* that thanks to the incessant propaganda of Salvini and company, these views and acts are now seen as feats of strength, and necessary to fix a problematic situation. It's very worrying that, in order to gain votes in the current local elections, and strengthen his position, he's willing to gamble on people's lives. Not only that, but when he does it, he's seen as a hero from his strong electoral base. It gives you a clear message: he can do whatever he wants, no matter how cruel or inhuman, and he will always find justification and even support for it. That's scary. In front of this situation, I don't care how many refugees other countries took in, I don't care if Italy took in more than other countries: this is not a contest won by who show the least compassion for human lives. There's clearly a situation to be addressed, but rejecting refugees leaving them at sea is not a solution, it's an act of propaganda at the cost of some people nobody cares about, because they are just 'some other refugees'. It's hard to argue with conspiracy theorists: if you believe that ONG and other organizations are actively ferrying people from Africa to Italy, because there's some grand scheme of human traffic alimented by the 35euros per day, there's little left to say... clearly, the situation is problematic, and refugees are exploited once they get to Italy, so this needs to be addressed, but it's a long shot from believing in big conspiracies.. edit: thanks for the data TheDwf. It always seems that the situation is getting worse and worse, as this has been the main game of Salvini's electoral campaign ... 'we are on the edge', 'italian people have had enough', ... sure This rhetoric works well because people needs a motivation their racist feelings Conspiracy theory = the result of the Mafia Capitale process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_Capitale_investigation Useless to talk with people ignoring the facts. Goodbye. | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
Do you think that in order to stop refugee exploitation we should stop refugees to get to Italy, or we should work on the mechanisms within our country that allowed for this exploitation to happen? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 12 2018 23:41 Silvanel wrote: Or just maybe its the other way around? Populist are gaining strenght because they are promising exactly the things that general population wants? When i was very young i belived that people are good and it is system that makes them behave badly. But as i grew older i switched to view that people are bad (in very specific sense of this word) by nature: racism, tribalism and egoism are natural and its the system that keep them in line. And when in democracy enough of tribsmen feel threatend the system bends to tribes will (as it is in democracy by design). We live in age when some people will have to choose between democracy and humanism. As it seems more and more likely that majority (at least in some countries) will choose its own well being over humanism. The problem isn't that they're gaining strength, it's that they're often doing it by lying and people are listening. The majority of these far right populists get into power based on simple platforms 'BAN ALL MIGRATION' 'SEND THE IMMIGRANTS BACK HOME' 'MAKE [INSERT COUNTRY] PURE AGAIN' 'JOBS FOR EVERYONE' Which might sound great, either in general (hey, 100% employment is a great idea!), or to a subset of people. The problem is they rarely have a plan to make it happen or, even worse, they promise things that are literal impossibilities, and convince people they can have them. That's the problem. It's political incompetents promising the sky, the moon and the stars, and all it does is corrode the entire political system. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 12 2018 23:41 Silvanel wrote: Or just maybe its the other way around? Populist are gaining strenght because they are promising exactly the things that general population wants? When i was very young i belived that people are good and it is system that makes them behave badly. But as i grew older i switched to view that people are bad (in very specific sense of this word) by nature: racism, tribalism and egoism are natural and its the system that keep them in line. And when in democracy enough of tribsmen feel threatend the system bends to tribes will (as it is in democracy by design). We live in age when some people will have to choose between democracy and humanism. As it seems more and more likely that majority (at least in some countries) will choose its own well being over humanism. I’m leaning this way too. I’m glad to hear some European sympathetic/in favor perspectives instead of the useless nonstop populist bashing. I actually expect overreach that will mellow in future years. It’s a very young movement without experience holding power in response to clear failures from the ruling parties to address the issue with their citizens in mind. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 12 2018 22:33 TheDwf wrote: On the Aquarius, Macron criticized the "cynicism and irresponsibility of the Italian government" but apparently wouldn't want the ship to go to Corsica (no need now, but still) because it would "set a precedent" !! I have no words for how terrible this guy is. Conte's reply: ROME, June 12 (Reuters) - Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte hit back on Tuesday at sharp criticism from France over Italy’s handling of an influx of migrants, accusing Paris of being hypocritical, cynical and rigid. France earlier denounced Italy’s refusal to take in more than 600 migrants stranded aboard the rescue ship Aquarius in the Mediterranean, and asked Rome to reconsider its position. Conte’s office issued an unusually toughly worded statement refuting comments from the top echelons of French government. “The statements around the Aquarius affair that come from France are surprising and show a serious lack of knowledge about what is really happening. Italy can not accept hypocritical lessons from countries that have always preferred to turn their backs when it comes to immigration,” Conte’s office said. https://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFR1N1SZ006 The justifications on the French side are pathetic. The government's spokesman declared that "France already took its part [of migrants]" (LOL). And our minister of Foreign Affairs said: "Look at the maps! Valence is the safest and closest port." In reality: Distance between the Aquarius and Ajaccio (Corsica): 862 km Distance between the Aquarius and Marseille (metropolitan France): 1 163 km Distance between the Aquarius and Valencia (Spain): 1 421 km Cowards, hypocritical lecturers and liars. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On June 12 2018 23:41 Silvanel wrote: Or just maybe its the other way around? Populist are gaining strenght because they are promising exactly the things that general population wants? When i was very young i belived that people are good and it is system that makes them behave badly. But as i grew older i switched to view that people are bad (in very specific sense of this word) by nature: racism, tribalism and egoism are natural and its the system that keep them in line. And when in democracy enough of tribsmen feel threatend the system bends to tribes will (as it is in democracy by design). We live in age when some people will have to choose between democracy and humanism. As it seems more and more likely that majority (at least in some countries) will choose its own well being over humanism. There's no mythical 'what people want'. The usual half-time of a modern scandal is a few weeks before the people move on to something else. Populists don't have access to some sort of deep democratic opinion within the population because those sort of opinions don't exist, they just know what buttons to push to generate that hysteria. It's a wrong characterisation to equate fighting populism with fighting democracy because democracy is more than just a riled up population. Democracy has some demands of its citizenry and not just its leadership. democratic citizens ought to make decisions based on facts and rational deliberation, not just feelings or whatever passes through the news headlines. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10167 Posts
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