EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1124
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Acrofales
Spain18473 Posts
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 12 2018 06:36 VHbb wrote: This all matter is just sickening. It appears clearly as an act of propaganda for the current local elections, but I'm lost for words seeing people justifying and supporting these acts. It's just disgusting, it goes to show how successful the propaganda is when 'victory' is leaving a ship at sea rather than helping other people. The absurd fact is that this is seen as an act of 'strength', we now 'will no longer be the doormat of Europe', and you see Salvini posing in this photos like a hero... sickening, really it hurts my stomach. Salvini's said a lot of nasty things about what to do about immigrants. It's become a very big issue over there and it's why the party's doing so well. Unfortunately the EU does have an immigrant problem, and it's becoming a big enough problem that it's causing massive internal divisions and is really threatening the bloc itself. It's the key issue that helped the euroskeptics get Britain out, and it's the issue that's ignited the far right resurgence all over the EU. I'm not going to pretend there's an easy solution, because as much as jingoism and racism play a role in all this, the immigrants themselves are causing enough problems in enough quantities that it's high visibility. The current mentality over there is that if they leave the ships to rot in dock, eventually they'll stop coming. And, regrettably, enough of the public agree with that way of thinking that it plays well. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On June 12 2018 07:52 iamthedave wrote: The current mentality over there is that if they leave the ships to rot in dock, eventually they'll stop coming. And, regrettably, enough of the public agree with that way of thinking that it plays well. In addition it helps that it is quite true that being rejected makes future attempts to enter unlikely to ever be initiated. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22668 Posts
On June 12 2018 08:20 LegalLord wrote: citation needed.In addition it helps that it is quite true that being rejected makes future attempts to enter unlikely to ever be initiated. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On June 12 2018 07:32 Acrofales wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what about Tunis? I know that's not where they want to go, but looking at the map, it's by far the nearest port that doesn't belong to Italy or Malta... Haven't you understood yet that this is a business and if they don't go to Italy they set a precedent? There are many dark sides involved - mafia, corrupt politicians, shady NGOs. Immigrants are a business for many. The captain is disgustingly playing arm wrestling with a sovereign state that democratically decided what its line is gonna be. Ships don't run on solidarity - they run on fuel and money. Italy already took around 600,000 immigrants. Funny to be called 'racists' now when other states did 0. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Corsica also offered to welcome the ship a few hours ago. Macron's silence is complicity. | ||
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On June 12 2018 07:32 Acrofales wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what about Tunis? I know that's not where they want to go, but looking at the map, it's by far the nearest port that doesn't belong to Italy or Malta... Tunis is an illegal immigration platform to Italy (might have become the largest in the last few months over Lybia). Immigration from Tunisia to Italy is mostly linked to Tunisia itself : latest poll gives 54% of the 18-34 population stating they intend to leave the country (was 44% in 2015). 31% state they believe illegal immigration is the way to go (source is an ITES study, haven't found a direct link). Minister of interior in Tunisia was fired last week over that matter. If the immigrants were tunisians, sending them back home would probably have been the way to go. Since they came from Lybia, sending them to Tunis just doesn't work. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On June 12 2018 18:55 Oshuy wrote: Tunis is an illegal immigration platform to Italy (might have become the largest in the last few months over Lybia). Immigration from Tunisia to Italy is mostly linked to Tunisia itself : latest poll gives 54% of the 18-34 population stating they intend to leave the country (was 44% in 2015). 31% state they believe illegal immigration is the way to go (source is an ITES study, haven't found a direct link). Minister of interior in Tunisia was fired last week over that matter. If the immigrants were tunisians, sending them back home would probably have been the way to go. Since they came from Lybia, sending them to Tunis just doesn't work. False. The main starting point is Lybia, which is a wasteland with two governments fighting each other: http://migramundo.com/map-details-migratory-routes-from-north-of-africa-to-italy/ Tunisia is quite stable at the moment. They don't want to bring them there because it would set a precedent and they would lose their sweet money. YOur last line is also LOLlish: they come from Lybia so you can't send them to Tunis - but you can send them to Italy! Wait, even more than send - you can pick them up 5-10 km off the Lybian coast and ferry them to Italy. | ||
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On June 12 2018 19:25 SoSexy wrote: False. The main starting point is Lybia, which is a wasteland with two governments fighting each other: http://migramundo.com/map-details-migratory-routes-from-north-of-africa-to-italy/ True, the main starting point for sub-saharian populations was Lybia in may last year. However, since then the fight against immigration from Lybia has moved the exit point from Tripoli to Tunis. See for example : www.ecfr.eu www.nytimes.com In 2018, immigration passing through/coming from Lybia has fallen by ~80% and the flow has shifted to Tunisia. Tunisia is quite stable at the moment. Stable government, but difficult economic situation, unemployment and corruption issues that are enough to drive people to migrate (Tunisians are the first nationality amongst migrants to Italy in 2018 so far). | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
Who is making money on it, and how exactly? Let's see how sad this can get.. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
On June 12 2018 20:03 VHbb wrote: Could you be more clear / explicit about this master plan you are implying is behind immigration to Italy? Who is making money on it, and how exactly? Let's see how sad this can get.. You know how it works. The Italian State gives around 35 euro daily to the associations that take immigrants in - this results in them buying cheap food, clothes and accomodation to keep the largest part of this 35 euro. There are hotel owners who closed their hotels to tourist and just took immigrants in because it's a better business. Do you have an unused space? Fill it with 100 immigrants. 35 x 100 = 3500, x 30 = 105,000 euro monthly. If you check the balance of the most prominent 45 organizations that do this 'job', their revenue in 2016 was 367,7 million euros. In 2015 it was 294,5 million euros. An increase of 73 million euro in one year. We had a massive investigation too in Italy (Mafia Capitale) where Salvatore Buzzi (the boss of one of this organization, who was directly making affairs with Massimo Carminati, a famous italian mafia boss who had ties with Banda della Magliana) explicitly said 'immigrants are more valuable than drug trafficking at the moment'. You're the delusional one if you think this is all charity. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xdpbbbh.jpg) | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 12 2018 20:44 SoSexy wrote: You are right Plansix. Let's just take everyone in. I'm sure Italy/Europe can accomodate all of Africa without any problem at all. Meanwhile in reality: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dfe1KYpX0AAiu_j.png) | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
Sorry for taking in only 650,000 people until today. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
I suppose there’s the increase in “deaths per arrival” if you want to see it that way, but I wouldn’t see that as a surprise. The overall decrease in death is a positive development. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 12 2018 20:51 SoSexy wrote: Sorry for taking in only 650,000 people until today. You change the focus of the conversation with every reply. The point is that "all of Africa" isn't coming to begin with. | ||
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VHbb
692 Posts
Hotel owners profit of migrants, and a map overlay of Italy / Africa are strong arguments for leaving a ship of people at sea. We are a strong and proud nation. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On June 12 2018 21:17 TheDwf wrote: You change the focus of the conversation with every reply. The point is that "all of Africa" isn't coming to begin with. That number for 2015 is about as close to “all of Africa” as is feasible given the realities of migration. | ||
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