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On May 28 2018 06:28 VHbb wrote:
fuck
what is happening in Italy is disgusting
one would hope that most of the people would realize that voting for the 2 parties currently trying to form a (ridiculous attempt of) government was one of the biggest mistake, but the truth is that is we went to vote again now, the extreme right would get even more vote..
I don't approve the political line of the would-be M5S-Lega government, but blocking it the way the Italian president did will only make things worse. In case of new reelections, they will simply campaign on "democracy is conditional to the results that the establishment wants" and win even harder.
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at this point.. if the italians want this shit, they (we) should have it
it's clear we are a joke
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Canada8990 Posts
Quick question, when was the last time Italy wasn't in some kind of nonsensical political crisis?
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On May 28 2018 06:47 VHbb wrote:
at this point.. if the italians want this shit, they (we) should have it
it's clear we are a joke
Is it true that Di Maio want to "impeach" the President with the article 90 or something like that?
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On May 28 2018 06:48 Nakajin wrote:
Quick question, when was the last time Italy wasn't in some kind of nonsensical political crisis?
![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/147164f77ac649bc25dd20ccd18e81d5.png)
Source: Wikipedia
Just to give this question a little bit more context. 
If Italians keep up with the number of prime ministers they get, I won't be surprised if they turn to dictators like Mussolini. At some point people will be disappointed in democracy even though democracy is as good as its society.
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On May 28 2018 06:54 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2018 06:47 VHbb wrote:
at this point.. if the italians want this shit, they (we) should have it
it's clear we are a joke Is it true that Di Maio want to "impeach" the President with the article 90 or something like that?
yes, even though I'm not sure Di Maio knows how this procedure works (there's no 'impeachment' in Italy, you can accuse the President and he'll go through a complex set of steps that *might* lead to a trial)
It looks more like a statement made to stress the break between M5S+Lega and the presidency
About italian politics: sure, we had many prime ministers and several governments and it's hard to say that we had a stable political situation in the last decades. However personally I feel this moment is the lowest: we are not dealing with political parties, or with forces that act in respecting our core institutions (see this 'impeachment' talk). We are dealing with two very strong super-populist forces that would ride any kind of feeling from their base to gain power.
I've always (naively) thought that abandoning euro would have never been an option (and it would never be for any serious political force), but that's what is on the table now.
In a sense, Mattarella's move can be understood: the last political vote was never explicitly about leaving/remaining tied to Europe (of course it was implicitly if you knew a bit about the political forces at play, but it never became close to the focus of the campaigns). If we go to vote again now, after this government attempt failed over the name of a strong anti-UE opposer, perhaps the next vote will be played on this key issue, rather than 'send the migrants home, italian first, let's destroy the corrupt old politics'.
It could be a gamble, I honestly don't know much better, but if we have to have a government that will push for Italy to get out of euro, we should at least have voted for this precise point.
Naively I would hope that the italians would not go this way, more realistically we go to vote again, Lega gains even more points, and we are back here in a few months..
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Haha, looks like we're pretty bad at this diversity thing. Would be funny if Silvanel posted a similar result too.
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Work/fatherland/order honestly sounds like facism...
Well.. Fatherland before work would fit even better but...
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Meh, fascists probably haven't worked a day in their lives. Most of them are inheritance fueled babyboys who are bored and found a purpose in the believes of being superior in one way or another.
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On May 29 2018 01:38 Velr wrote:
Work/fatherland/order honestly sounds like facism...
Yeah it does xD But keep in mind the site uses terms like communism very loosely, I wouldn't take those labels too seriously.
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Wow. I'm very impressed by that questionnaire. Managed to capture my politica leanings rather accurately, and then came up with 3 keywords that I quite agree with!
Humanity. Justice. Work.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I find it a little fucked up that they associated "work" with liberalism if I'm honest. Like, I get what they're going for, but meh.
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On May 29 2018 02:08 Acrofales wrote:Wow. I'm very impressed by that questionnaire. Managed to capture my politica leanings rather accurately, and then came up with 3 keywords that I quite agree with! Humanity. Justice. Work. + Show Spoiler +
May I ask where you stand politically in your country? Also, what's going on with the PSOE's no-confidence motion?
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On May 29 2018 02:19 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2018 02:08 Acrofales wrote:Wow. I'm very impressed by that questionnaire. Managed to capture my politica leanings rather accurately, and then came up with 3 keywords that I quite agree with! Humanity. Justice. Work. + Show Spoiler + May I ask where you stand politically in your country? Also, what's going on with the PSOE's no-confidence motion?
I'm not Spanish, so not involved in politics here at all, as I can only vote in the municipalities. Last election in the Netherlands I voted for the Pirate Party...
As for what is going on with the vote of censure? We'll see on Thursday. So far there's a lot of political posturing going on.
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On May 29 2018 02:42 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2018 02:19 TheDwf wrote:On May 29 2018 02:08 Acrofales wrote:Wow. I'm very impressed by that questionnaire. Managed to capture my politica leanings rather accurately, and then came up with 3 keywords that I quite agree with! Humanity. Justice. Work. + Show Spoiler + May I ask where you stand politically in your country? Also, what's going on with the PSOE's no-confidence motion? I'm not Spanish, so not involved in politics here at all, as I can only vote in the municipalities. Last election in the Netherlands I voted for the Pirate Party...
Oh, okay. Thanks!
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President Mattarella of Italy: From moral drift to tactical blunderI concede that there are issues over which I would welcome the Italian President’s use of constitutional powers that (in my humble opinion) he should not have. (*) + Show Spoiler +(*) It is my view that indirectly elected Presidents (i.e. Presidents not elected by the people) cannot legitimately deny a parliamentary majority the right to choose the cabinet. This is the fundamental difference between a presidential and a parliamentary democracy. For a democracy to be run as presidential, the President must have a direct mandate from the people. The Italian President, in this sense, should not have the powers vested in him by the Constitution. And, even if he has, he has no moral or political legitimacy to use it in order to dictate economic policy. One such issue is the outrageous policy of the Lega and the promise of its leader, Mr Salvini, to expel five hundred thousand migrants from Italy. Had President Mattarella refused Mr Salvini the post of Interior Minister, on the basis that he rejects such a monstrous project, I would be compelled to support him. But, no, Mr Mattarella had no such qualms. Not even for a moment did he consider vetoing the formation of a 5S-Lega government on the basis that there is no place in a European country for scenes involving security forces rounding up hundreds of thousands of people, caging them, and forcing them into trains, buses and ferries before expelling them goodness knows where. No, Mr Mattarella vetoed the formation of a government backed by an absolute majority of lawmakers for another reason: His disapproval of the Finance Minister designate. And what was this disapproval based on? The fact that the said gentleman, while fully qualified for the job, and despite his declaration that he would abide by the EU’s eurozone rules, has in the past expressed doubts about the eurozone’s architecture and has favoured a plan of euro exit just in case it is needed. It was as if President Mattarella were to declare that reasonableness in a prospective Finance Minister constitutes grounds for his or her exclusion from the post! Let’s face it: There is no thinking economist anywhere in the world who does not share a concern about the eurozone’s faulty architecture. And there is no prudent finance minister who does not have a plan for euro exit; indeed, I have itr on good authority that the German finance ministry, the ECB, every major bank and corporation have plans in place for the possible exit from the eurozone of Italy, even of Germany. Is Mr Mattarella telling us that only the Italian Finance Minister is not allowed to imagine having such a plan? Beyond his moral drift (as he condones Mr Salvini’s industrial-scale misanthropy while vetoing a legitimate concern about the eurozone’s capacity to let Italy breathe in its midst), President Mattarella has made a major tactical blunder. In short, he fell right into Mr Salvini’s trap. The formation of another ‘technical’ government, under a former IMF apparatchik, is a fantastic gift to Mr Salvini. Mr Salvini is secretly salivating at the thought of another election – one that he will fight not as the misanthropic, divisive populist that he is but as the defender of democracy against the Deep Establishment. Already last night hescaled the high moral with the stirring words: “Italy is not a colony, we are not slaves of the Germans, the French, the spread or finance.” If Mr Mattarella takes solace from the fact that previous Italian Presidents managed to put in place technical governments that did the establishment’s job (so ‘successfully’ that the country’s political centre was destroyed), he is very badly mistaken. This time around he, unlike his predecessors, has no parliamentary majority to pass a budget or indeed to give his government a vote of confidence. Thus, he is forced to go into elections that, courtesy of his moral drift and tactical incompetence, will return an even stronger majority for 5S-Lega, possibly in alliance with the enfeebled Forza Italia of Silvio Berlusconi. And then what Mr Mattarella? Source
A sound analysis from Varoufakis. The eurozone is a factory of political catastrophes
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National politicians blaming the EU for their homegrown problems, name a more iconic duo
How in god's name is it Europe's problem that the Italian President is unelected and can veto things?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/C6xtxW0.png)
