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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
I don't believe in faire/fairy scores, I don't even have an idea what it is. :D I'm not socialist despite your interpretation. I consider myself centre-right though. That's not the same.
Laissez-faire (/ˌlɛseɪˈfɛər/; French: [lɛsefɛʁ] (About this sound listen); from French: laissez faire, lit. 'let do') is an economic system in which transactions between private parties are free from government intervention such as regulation, privileges, tariffs and subsidies.
Regulation is essential to balance capitalism though. I don't see how that's socialist. I hope no sane person wants pure capitalism or socialism. By that stupid definition, Trump is socialist because he imposes tariffs on other countries.
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On May 27 2018 04:15 sc-darkness wrote:I don't believe in faire/fairy scores, I don't even have an idea what it is. :D I'm not socialist despite your interpretation. I consider myself centre-right though. That's not the same. Show nested quote +
Laissez-faire (/ˌlɛseɪˈfɛər/; French: [lɛsefɛʁ] (About this sound listen); from French: laissez faire, lit. 'let do') is an economic system in which transactions between private parties are free from government intervention such as regulation, privileges, tariffs and subsidies.
Regulation is essential to balance capitalism though. I don't see how that's socialist. I hope no sane person wants pure capitalism or socialism. By that stupid definition, Trump is socialist because he imposes tariffs on other countries.
Tariffs have nothing to do with socialism per se, why do you say that?
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On May 27 2018 04:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2018 04:15 sc-darkness wrote:I don't believe in faire/fairy scores, I don't even have an idea what it is. :D I'm not socialist despite your interpretation. I consider myself centre-right though. That's not the same.
Laissez-faire (/ˌlɛseɪˈfɛər/; French: [lɛsefɛʁ] (About this sound listen); from French: laissez faire, lit. 'let do') is an economic system in which transactions between private parties are free from government intervention such as regulation, privileges, tariffs and subsidies.
Regulation is essential to balance capitalism though. I don't see how that's socialist. I hope no sane person wants pure capitalism or socialism. By that stupid definition, Trump is socialist because he imposes tariffs on other countries. Tariffs have nothing to do with socialism per se, why do you say that?
Because of this:
On May 27 2018 04:09 Big J wrote:
You only have 14% on the laisze-faire score yourself, so you are just a socialist that doesn't believe in what we popularily call socialist goals.
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humanity - ecology - socialism
sounds about right. Thanks for the quiz link.
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On May 27 2018 03:36 sc-darkness wrote:
I suspected TL has too many socialists in this thread, but now that's confirmed. :D
Unfortunately, there's no political balance in discussions then. Or, at least the loud ones are more active.
Yes TL is full of millennial centre left. No real surprises there.
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Well, that's the definition that liberal thinktanks like the mont pelerin society put forward, which have been the driving ideological forces behind the conservative and the neoliberal wings of the social-democratic parties of the West in the post WW2 era.
And yes, Trump by that definition is a socialist. A pretty fun video on the issue, Milton Friedman, the former superhero of the liberal right vs Donald Trump, the current leader of the American nationalsocialist right:
+ Show Spoiler +
Tariffs have a lot to do with collectivist thinking. In my opinion there are good tariffs, which are the ones that you create to emulate a price between to different levels of regulations. E.g. Europe has a high standard of workers rights regulations or enviromental regulations, which causes extra costs. Naturally Europe should impose tariffs towards countries that don't have those regulations to emulate a price, otherwise the regulations of Europe get undermined.
But that's not what I mean. What I mean is the notion that "X is taking our jobs, we want our traditional industries protected".
That's just socialism. In your mind you assume something "belongs to you" and want someone else, the state, its taxpayers, or its consumers to subvene it to keep it alive. "Someone else should pay for it". And that has been the right-wing propaganda what socialism is all along. So I'm really just giving your side the courtesy of using your terminology instead of endlessly explaining why that isn't socialism, but then we actually should stick with it. And then Donald Trump is a socialist.
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On May 27 2018 04:37 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2018 03:36 sc-darkness wrote:
I suspected TL has too many socialists in this thread, but now that's confirmed. :D
Unfortunately, there's no political balance in discussions then. Or, at least the loud ones are more active. Yes TL is full of millennial centre left. No real surprises there.
Socialism and centre-left have divorced for decades
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On May 27 2018 04:43 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2018 04:37 RvB wrote:On May 27 2018 03:36 sc-darkness wrote:
I suspected TL has too many socialists in this thread, but now that's confirmed. :D
Unfortunately, there's no political balance in discussions then. Or, at least the loud ones are more active. Yes TL is full of millennial centre left. No real surprises there. Socialism and centre-left have divorced for decades
Capitalism on the left, capitalism on the right, and probably best of all: capitalism in the middle. :r
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Trump is very far from socialist, I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face. He has quite a lot of private properties, he messed up Obama's healthcare, he doesn't want to regulate gun ownership, etc. Tariffs are just a way for him to achieve his agenda. That doesn't define him as socialist.
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On May 27 2018 04:57 sc-darkness wrote:
Trump is very far from socialist, I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face. He has quite a lot of private properties, he messed up Obama's healthcare, he doesn't want to regulate gun ownership, etc. Tariffs are just a way for him to achieve his agenda. That doesn't define him as socialist.
I'm just using right-wing anti-socialist definitions of socialism and drawing the logical conclusion. If you want me to classfy him differently, then give me a different definition of socialism.
I mean we can go with Marx: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".
If you can draw a conclusion from that whether Obama's healthcare, gun owenership regulations or tariffs are socialist, then I would really like to hear it.
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I don't know about socialism and Marx's quotes, but regulating guns is intervention from state which is the opposite of what the right wants. So it's a left policy in that sense. Making healthcare available to more people (were Americans forced to pay tax for it just to be insured?) is also left. And guess what, as a centre-right person, I'm ok with that.
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On May 27 2018 05:14 sc-darkness wrote:
I don't know about socialism, but regulating guns is intervention from state which is the opposite of what the right wants. So it's a left policy in that sense. Making healthcare available to more people (were Americans forced to pay tax for it just to be insured?) is also left. And guess what, as a centre-right person, I'm ok with that.
Yeah but then we are back to my original point: You are not laissez-faire, you want regulations, an interfering state. That's why I called you a socialist, by the very propaganda that the conservative parties typically use. Even if you right now only used a weaker version, where you didn't say "socialism" but "the opposite of what the right wants".
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On May 27 2018 05:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2018 05:14 sc-darkness wrote:
I don't know about socialism, but regulating guns is intervention from state which is the opposite of what the right wants. So it's a left policy in that sense. Making healthcare available to more people (were Americans forced to pay tax for it just to be insured?) is also left. And guess what, as a centre-right person, I'm ok with that. Yeah but then we are back to my original point: You are not laissez-faire, you want regulations, an interfering state. That's why I called you a socialist.
Things aren't black and white though. That's why you have centre. Sometimes you're neither socialist nor capitalist. Just something in the middle.
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Universal health care was introduced 135 years ago and not by someone you'd call left leaning
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On May 27 2018 05:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2018 05:14 sc-darkness wrote:
I don't know about socialism, but regulating guns is intervention from state which is the opposite of what the right wants. So it's a left policy in that sense. Making healthcare available to more people (were Americans forced to pay tax for it just to be insured?) is also left. And guess what, as a centre-right person, I'm ok with that. Yeah but then we are back to my original point: You are not laissez-faire, you want regulations, an interfering state. That's why I called you a socialist, by the very propaganda that the conservative parties typically use. Even if you right now only used a weaker version, where you didn't say "socialism" but "the opposite of what the right wants".
Socialism means moving towards a higher socialization of the economy, i.e. collective/social ownership of the means of production and democratic control. With "your" definition, socialist can basically include "anyone who doesn't believe in libertarianism" ("pure" capitalism).
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Trump is not a socialist lol. He's a sort of medieval mercantilist. Slash welfare and regulation at home, support domestic producers through import substitution and industrial policy etc.. It's the stuff you usually see in developing countries pushed through by strongmen (which fits Trump's character quite well).
All supported by a sort of feudal conservative class of owners, Trump is basically practising 19th century capitalism
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On May 27 2018 05:20 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2018 05:19 Big J wrote:On May 27 2018 05:14 sc-darkness wrote:
I don't know about socialism, but regulating guns is intervention from state which is the opposite of what the right wants. So it's a left policy in that sense. Making healthcare available to more people (were Americans forced to pay tax for it just to be insured?) is also left. And guess what, as a centre-right person, I'm ok with that. Yeah but then we are back to my original point: You are not laissez-faire, you want regulations, an interfering state. That's why I called you a socialist. Things aren't black and white though. That's why you have centre. Sometimes you're neither socialist nor capitalist. Just something in the middle.
Things aren't black or white or center either. Picking two arbitrary ideologies and determining a center is just the same as determining the center ideology to begin with. If you choose the points from which you want to form a center, then you are just choosing what you want. You don't have an objective methode to determine an actual center through that.
The political center is what an unbiased political voting system determines. An opinion that calls itself center without having actually measured all opinions clinically beforehand is not center, it is just bullshit.
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Centre is balance between 2 ideas in my opinion. I don't care if it's not exactly 50%. That's why you have centre-left and centre-right. If it was accurate, you'd only have centre. Also, there's no "unbiased political voting system". Opinions are inherently biased. That's why they're not facts.
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On May 27 2018 05:33 sc-darkness wrote:
Centre is balance between 2 ideas in my opinion. I don't care if it's not exactly 50%. That's why you have centre-left and centre-right. If it was accurate, you'd only have centre. Also, there's no "unbiased political voting system". Opinions are inherently biased. That's why they're not facts.
Do you actually believe there are only 2 opinions in general? Or 2 opinions on every matter?
I don't believe so. I believe in prices. And a price can range from anything to anything, each being a representation of a unique opinion, not even necessarily being equatable to money or any other currency. Now, tell me what the center opinion is? There is none. Center is one of the worst populist terms possible. Center is what a center mechanism determines. That can be a democratic vote or a market bidding mechanism or anything else that is universally accepted. But a center per se does not exist before you measured it.
By the way: that bold part is the essential breakline between what Right-wing liberterians like Mises/Hayek/Friedman and original Socialists like Marx believe. The former believe that everything equates to money and property equivalents, the later denies that, calls it capital fetishsm and demands to change the fundamental decision making system from a capital/market based one to a communal/socialist one that abandons money in favor of small scale votes and mutually benefitial collaboration.
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