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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 1102

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10792 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-28 22:15:25
May 28 2018 22:13 GMT
#22021
These anti EU discussions are just so... bland?

I mean, especially for some of the poorer coutnries, what did the eu take? What did you gain? I just was on an eastern european trip by car.. 75% of the highways got big EU signs... But But..

And italy.. lol, italy... Is lucky it has beaches and thats about it since.. 50 years?


TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 28 2018 22:35 GMT
#22022
On May 29 2018 06:15 Nyxisto wrote:
National politicians blaming the EU for their homegrown problems, name a more iconic duo

How in god's name is it Europe's problem that the Italian President is unelected and can veto things?

...

Yeah, keep hiding behind institutions (which were probably abused) to dodge the political problem. What was the constitutional excuse for Greece in 2015? The nexus of the problem is that democracy is kaput as soon as what a government does (or wants to do) might trigger problems for the eurozone.

And something tells me that the Italian President got phone calls from Berlin, Brussels, Frankfort and Paris.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-28 22:50:43
May 28 2018 22:49 GMT
#22023
The nexus of the problem is that people like Varoufakis expected to storm into the office like some sort of renegade revolutionary were faced with opposition on all fronts, and are now angry that they got to experience the reality of politics within a union of 500 million people. That's what pisses him off about the EU.

He came into office on the back of grandiose promises, noticed too late that negotiating is actually difficult, jumped on his motorbike and drove off into the sunset and now is on a warpath with the European Union and the powers that be. It's a childish attitude really to the detriment of the Greek people. Individuals like Varoufakis would do better in entertainment than in politics.

Of course causing problems for the Eurozone is going to trigger a backlash if you're literally part of the Eurozone to begin with. Is that supposed to be unexpected?
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 28 2018 22:59 GMT
#22024
On May 29 2018 07:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The nexus of the problem is that people like Varoufakis expected to storm into the office like some sort of renegade revolutionary were faced with opposition on all fronts, and are now angry that they got to experience the reality of politics within a union of 500 million people. That's what pisses him off about the EU.

He came into office on the back of grandiose promises, noticed too late that negotiating is actually difficult, jumped on his motorbike and drove off into the sunset and now is on a warpath with the European Union and the powers that be. It's a childish attitude really to the detriment of the Greek people. Individuals like Varoufakis would do better in entertainment than in politics.

Of course causing problems for the Eurozone is going to trigger a backlash if you're literally part of the Eurozone to begin with. Is that supposed to be unexpected?

You dodge. But what say you? Do you approve the decision of a single, unelected bureaucrat to basically sit on the results of a sovereign vote, and choose an IMF brute for the transition on top of that?
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
May 28 2018 23:01 GMT
#22025
If anyone is interested Work Liberty Equality


zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-28 23:04:53
May 28 2018 23:02 GMT
#22026
regardless of the merits of the Italian situation, I don't like or trust Varoufakis (at least if I'm remembering right which one he is), and am automatically skeptical of an oped by him based on his history.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
May 28 2018 23:22 GMT
#22027
On May 29 2018 07:59 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2018 07:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The nexus of the problem is that people like Varoufakis expected to storm into the office like some sort of renegade revolutionary were faced with opposition on all fronts, and are now angry that they got to experience the reality of politics within a union of 500 million people. That's what pisses him off about the EU.

He came into office on the back of grandiose promises, noticed too late that negotiating is actually difficult, jumped on his motorbike and drove off into the sunset and now is on a warpath with the European Union and the powers that be. It's a childish attitude really to the detriment of the Greek people. Individuals like Varoufakis would do better in entertainment than in politics.

Of course causing problems for the Eurozone is going to trigger a backlash if you're literally part of the Eurozone to begin with. Is that supposed to be unexpected?

You dodge. But what say you? Do you approve the decision of a single, unelected bureaucrat to basically sit on the results of a sovereign vote, and choose an IMF brute for the transition on top of that?


Sure, if you've committed yourself to be a member of the European Union you have taken on the obligation to accept the institutions and bureaucrats of the European Union with all the rules and organisations that it entails.

If a country is unwilling to accept this, they can leave as we have seen in the UK. If Italy thinks it is a bad trade for them to be part of the Union, national politics will reflect that. But it is not the EU's fault that pro-European Italian politicians (in this case the president) oppose a decision by anti-European incumbents. That's an Italian matter.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
May 28 2018 23:33 GMT
#22028
On May 29 2018 08:22 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2018 07:59 TheDwf wrote:
On May 29 2018 07:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The nexus of the problem is that people like Varoufakis expected to storm into the office like some sort of renegade revolutionary were faced with opposition on all fronts, and are now angry that they got to experience the reality of politics within a union of 500 million people. That's what pisses him off about the EU.

He came into office on the back of grandiose promises, noticed too late that negotiating is actually difficult, jumped on his motorbike and drove off into the sunset and now is on a warpath with the European Union and the powers that be. It's a childish attitude really to the detriment of the Greek people. Individuals like Varoufakis would do better in entertainment than in politics.

Of course causing problems for the Eurozone is going to trigger a backlash if you're literally part of the Eurozone to begin with. Is that supposed to be unexpected?

You dodge. But what say you? Do you approve the decision of a single, unelected bureaucrat to basically sit on the results of a sovereign vote, and choose an IMF brute for the transition on top of that?


Sure, if you've committed yourself to be a member of the European Union you have taken on the obligation to accept the institutions and bureaucrats of the European Union with all the rules and organisations that it entails.

If a country is unwilling to accept this, they can leave as we have seen in the UK. If Italy thinks it is a bad trade for them to be part of the Union, national politics will reflect that. But it is not the EU's fault that pro-European Italian politicians (in this case the president) oppose a decision by anti-European incumbents. That's an Italian matter.


Should have kept a constitutional monarchy rather than political president, then these sorts of crises wouldn't happen.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5290 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-29 05:54:12
May 29 2018 05:33 GMT
#22029
On May 29 2018 08:22 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2018 07:59 TheDwf wrote:
On May 29 2018 07:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The nexus of the problem is that people like Varoufakis expected to storm into the office like some sort of renegade revolutionary were faced with opposition on all fronts, and are now angry that they got to experience the reality of politics within a union of 500 million people. That's what pisses him off about the EU.

He came into office on the back of grandiose promises, noticed too late that negotiating is actually difficult, jumped on his motorbike and drove off into the sunset and now is on a warpath with the European Union and the powers that be. It's a childish attitude really to the detriment of the Greek people. Individuals like Varoufakis would do better in entertainment than in politics.

Of course causing problems for the Eurozone is going to trigger a backlash if you're literally part of the Eurozone to begin with. Is that supposed to be unexpected?

You dodge. But what say you? Do you approve the decision of a single, unelected bureaucrat to basically sit on the results of a sovereign vote, and choose an IMF brute for the transition on top of that?


Sure, if you've committed yourself to be a member of the European Union you have taken on the obligation to accept the institutions and bureaucrats of the European Union with all the rules and organisations that it entails.

If a country is unwilling to accept this, they can leave as we have seen in the UK. If Italy thinks it is a bad trade for them to be part of the Union, national politics will reflect that. But it is not the EU's fault that pro-European Italian politicians (in this case the president) oppose a decision by anti-European incumbents. That's an Italian matter.
or, OR!, if you have taken on the obligation to have a second amendment, then arm your godamnpeople ... or not.

what the pro-EU groupies are missing when making these kind of arguments, 'but if you agreed ...', 'you can just leave ...', 'it can't be EU's fault ...'(which is a pure ideological factoid), is that when the whole voting for an EU/agreeing with an EU legislature/rule was going on, the fucking game was rigged: both the left and the right political parties across the whole fucking Europe had deals and agreements to just accept EU as is.
let that shit sink in: when the EU union was agreed upon(past its initial members), the whole 'european' political spectrum was in on it. one had no viable option, via elections, to not agree with it, to not accept it.

now that you have a left and a right(more or less) across the EU, after you move past political declarations and politicized populist stances, you realize the beauty of what the fuck is going on: pragmatist at its core, this is just a fight for control of the EU between two actual sides.

how many ate shit about leaving the EU and after being elected/gaining power they did nothing?; all of them, because they knew it was never about leaving but about controlling the EU.
(mind you here, UK left before all of this infighting broke out; that's why it regrets it now. UK could've ended up spearheading the takeover.)
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 29 2018 08:59 GMT
#22030
On May 29 2018 08:22 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2018 07:59 TheDwf wrote:
On May 29 2018 07:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The nexus of the problem is that people like Varoufakis expected to storm into the office like some sort of renegade revolutionary were faced with opposition on all fronts, and are now angry that they got to experience the reality of politics within a union of 500 million people. That's what pisses him off about the EU.

He came into office on the back of grandiose promises, noticed too late that negotiating is actually difficult, jumped on his motorbike and drove off into the sunset and now is on a warpath with the European Union and the powers that be. It's a childish attitude really to the detriment of the Greek people. Individuals like Varoufakis would do better in entertainment than in politics.

Of course causing problems for the Eurozone is going to trigger a backlash if you're literally part of the Eurozone to begin with. Is that supposed to be unexpected?

You dodge. But what say you? Do you approve the decision of a single, unelected bureaucrat to basically sit on the results of a sovereign vote, and choose an IMF brute for the transition on top of that?


Sure, if you've committed yourself to be a member of the European Union you have taken on the obligation to accept the institutions and bureaucrats of the European Union with all the rules and organisations that it entails.

If a country is unwilling to accept this, they can leave as we have seen in the UK. If Italy thinks it is a bad trade for them to be part of the Union, national politics will reflect that. But it is not the EU's fault that pro-European Italian politicians (in this case the president) oppose a decision by anti-European incumbents. That's an Italian matter.

Thanks for illustrating the recent article about centrism and democracy. Enjoy the consequences of this folly:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


"There can be no democratic choice against European treaties." — Jean-Claude Juncker
"Fine, we'll vote for the far-right to get it back." — An increasing number of Italian voters

What could go wrong?
VHbb
Profile Joined October 2014
689 Posts
May 29 2018 09:29 GMT
#22031
Thanks for the data The Dwf. I am not at all an expert in polling, but I am wondering how do they get a representative sample with only 2100 interviews for the poll (I'm genuinely asking, I'm not trying to bring down the data). It would be great to have a +/- stat. uncertainty on those numbers.

I feel that it can be a bit misleading to frame these numbers *only* in the context of pro-EU / against-EU.
Europe was never a *strong* point of the electoral campaign (of course Lega was against, but it was not the point on which they built their campaign), and most importantly it was *not* in the "contract" that Lega and M5S drafted to form the first attempt of government.

The numbers are worrying, Lega Nord is a pit of ignorance and violence and seeing it close to being the first force in Italy is disheartening.. it's interesting they are more benefiting from people switching from right/center-right, rather than M5S votes (though again there are likely big uncertainties covering this small differences) while PD is not changing much.

What I find "strange" for me is that there appears to be NO political force other than Lega and M5S that is offering any alternatives. We are going to vote again in 2-3 months, but I'm not seeing any unite force from the center-left. I know it's a natural consequence of PD's politics in the last year/months, it's not "surprising", but I find honestly out of place.. I usually vote "against" someone (Berlusconi, Lega, etc.) but there's always a realistic alternative (generally PD): not it appears there's nothing.
My life for Aiur !
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
May 29 2018 10:19 GMT
#22032
On May 29 2018 14:33 xM(Z wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2018 08:22 Nyxisto wrote:
On May 29 2018 07:59 TheDwf wrote:
On May 29 2018 07:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The nexus of the problem is that people like Varoufakis expected to storm into the office like some sort of renegade revolutionary were faced with opposition on all fronts, and are now angry that they got to experience the reality of politics within a union of 500 million people. That's what pisses him off about the EU.

He came into office on the back of grandiose promises, noticed too late that negotiating is actually difficult, jumped on his motorbike and drove off into the sunset and now is on a warpath with the European Union and the powers that be. It's a childish attitude really to the detriment of the Greek people. Individuals like Varoufakis would do better in entertainment than in politics.

Of course causing problems for the Eurozone is going to trigger a backlash if you're literally part of the Eurozone to begin with. Is that supposed to be unexpected?

You dodge. But what say you? Do you approve the decision of a single, unelected bureaucrat to basically sit on the results of a sovereign vote, and choose an IMF brute for the transition on top of that?


Sure, if you've committed yourself to be a member of the European Union you have taken on the obligation to accept the institutions and bureaucrats of the European Union with all the rules and organisations that it entails.

If a country is unwilling to accept this, they can leave as we have seen in the UK. If Italy thinks it is a bad trade for them to be part of the Union, national politics will reflect that. But it is not the EU's fault that pro-European Italian politicians (in this case the president) oppose a decision by anti-European incumbents. That's an Italian matter.
or, OR!, if you have taken on the obligation to have a second amendment, then arm your godamnpeople ... or not.

what the pro-EU groupies are missing when making these kind of arguments, 'but if you agreed ...', 'you can just leave ...', 'it can't be EU's fault ...'(which is a pure ideological factoid), is that when the whole voting for an EU/agreeing with an EU legislature/rule was going on, the fucking game was rigged: both the left and the right political parties across the whole fucking Europe had deals and agreements to just accept EU as is.
let that shit sink in: when the EU union was agreed upon(past its initial members), the whole 'european' political spectrum was in on it. one had no viable option, via elections, to not agree with it, to not accept it.

now that you have a left and a right(more or less) across the EU, after you move past political declarations and politicized populist stances, you realize the beauty of what the fuck is going on: pragmatist at its core, this is just a fight for control of the EU between two actual sides.

how many ate shit about leaving the EU and after being elected/gaining power they did nothing?; all of them, because they knew it was never about leaving but about controlling the EU.
(mind you here, UK left before all of this infighting broke out; that's why it regrets it now. UK could've ended up spearheading the takeover.)


UK does not regret leaving the EU, attitudes haven't really moved since the referendum most people just want to get it over with and leave.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 29 2018 10:53 GMT
#22033
On May 29 2018 18:29 VHbb wrote:
Thanks for the data The Dwf. I am not at all an expert in polling, but I am wondering how do they get a representative sample with only 2100 interviews for the poll (I'm genuinely asking, I'm not trying to bring down the data). It would be great to have a +/- stat. uncertainty on those numbers.

They miniaturize the population and redress the sample if the differences are too important. In France most polls are done with ~1000 people, 2100 is more than the average. The +/- should be around 2%, so for instance the 27,5 for Lega should be read as "between 25,5 and 29,5".

I feel that it can be a bit misleading to frame these numbers *only* in the context of pro-EU / against-EU.
Europe was never a *strong* point of the electoral campaign (of course Lega was against, but it was not the point on which they built their campaign), and most importantly it was *not* in the "contract" that Lega and M5S drafted to form the first attempt of government.

Yes, the next election will probably clarify what was implied. The M5S-Lega government had no open intention to leave the euro, but their program was incompatible with the eurozone rules, so the problem would have arisen sooner or later. Matterella's decision accelerated the contradiction and will probably make the next elections about "EU vs democracy," with a far-right party getting the privilege of presenting itself as the herald of popular sovereignty...

What I find "strange" for me is that there appears to be NO political force other than Lega and M5S that is offering any alternatives. We are going to vote again in 2-3 months, but I'm not seeing any unite force from the center-left. I know it's a natural consequence of PD's politics in the last year/months, it's not "surprising", but I find honestly out of place.. I usually vote "against" someone (Berlusconi, Lega, etc.) but there's always a realistic alternative (generally PD): not it appears there's nothing.

Yeah the Italian left is pretty much dead, which is why the M5S and the Lega can hit numbers that high. The PD was in charge those last few years and their socio-economic policies are largely responsible for this mess, so obviously they cannot be the alternative, especially as they abandoned the working class.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 29 2018 11:26 GMT
#22034
There is absolutly nothing in S&D politics for young or working people at the moment. There is no system critic, no true will to reform anything. Sure, if you believe everythings quite ok and should stay like that it's an option to vote for them.

But matter of fact is, that due to the conservative bias of how we create laws (make it based on democratic systems, keep them forever, even if everyone who decided them is already dead) the young, who did not agree to these laws will always see the status quo as something that forces them under the rule of the old. As with all things conservative: if you practice it too long you just end up in an authoritarian state.
And the reformists and revolutionaries are, on certain matters, to the right at the moment. Of course not exclusively (Sanders, Melenchon), but surely not in the former reformist-left parties.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21916 Posts
May 29 2018 11:37 GMT
#22035
Was it the left that caused Italy to suffer so hard in the last economic crisis? Or where they the ones left to pick up the pieces afterwards?
Is the left being to slow on recovering or are they doing the best they can do with what they have and the right gets popular by selling fairy tales and impossibilities?

I don't know the specific situation in Italy but populist parties promising to fix everything are rarely to answer.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
May 29 2018 12:02 GMT
#22036
Was it the governments fault in general that caused that crisis and if so, what is the root of the problem?

How do we:
a) repair the damage?
b) change the system to prevent that thing from happening?

There's nothing going on on that front. The damage hasn't been repaired, quite the opposite. We went from an economic crisis that would punish those who caused it to a state crisis that forces high debt and extremely inflated prices on the young generation.

But hey, Germany has had some growth through austerity and liberalization politics. They have been doing worse than pretty much everyone else outside of the Eurozone, but lets look over that. Don't critizise the Euro, just copy Germany! Maybe we can all become the best of the worst! (Or not because you simply can't export without an importer, and you can't be more competetive on 3rd markets if your competitors copy you)
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21916 Posts
May 29 2018 12:15 GMT
#22037
Yes the aftermath of the crisis was horrible, nothing has changed and its only a matter of time until the next one comes along but what does that have to do with the political situation in Italy? Its not like they have the influence to change global economic policy.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1947 Posts
May 29 2018 12:20 GMT
#22038
Sorry, but that sounds like a unreasonably sarcastic post compared to the situation. There are lots ot things you can do without copying Germanies policies and completely bloat your national debt and break all fiscal rules of the EU. The plans of this attempted government seemed to me illogical and immature, throw money you don't have at the wall and see what happens because it sounds great to the voters.
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5290 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-29 12:38:43
May 29 2018 12:38 GMT
#22039
On May 29 2018 19:19 Zaros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2018 14:33 xM(Z wrote:
On May 29 2018 08:22 Nyxisto wrote:
On May 29 2018 07:59 TheDwf wrote:
On May 29 2018 07:49 Nyxisto wrote:
The nexus of the problem is that people like Varoufakis expected to storm into the office like some sort of renegade revolutionary were faced with opposition on all fronts, and are now angry that they got to experience the reality of politics within a union of 500 million people. That's what pisses him off about the EU.

He came into office on the back of grandiose promises, noticed too late that negotiating is actually difficult, jumped on his motorbike and drove off into the sunset and now is on a warpath with the European Union and the powers that be. It's a childish attitude really to the detriment of the Greek people. Individuals like Varoufakis would do better in entertainment than in politics.

Of course causing problems for the Eurozone is going to trigger a backlash if you're literally part of the Eurozone to begin with. Is that supposed to be unexpected?

You dodge. But what say you? Do you approve the decision of a single, unelected bureaucrat to basically sit on the results of a sovereign vote, and choose an IMF brute for the transition on top of that?


Sure, if you've committed yourself to be a member of the European Union you have taken on the obligation to accept the institutions and bureaucrats of the European Union with all the rules and organisations that it entails.

If a country is unwilling to accept this, they can leave as we have seen in the UK. If Italy thinks it is a bad trade for them to be part of the Union, national politics will reflect that. But it is not the EU's fault that pro-European Italian politicians (in this case the president) oppose a decision by anti-European incumbents. That's an Italian matter.
or, OR!, if you have taken on the obligation to have a second amendment, then arm your godamnpeople ... or not.

what the pro-EU groupies are missing when making these kind of arguments, 'but if you agreed ...', 'you can just leave ...', 'it can't be EU's fault ...'(which is a pure ideological factoid), is that when the whole voting for an EU/agreeing with an EU legislature/rule was going on, the fucking game was rigged: both the left and the right political parties across the whole fucking Europe had deals and agreements to just accept EU as is.
let that shit sink in: when the EU union was agreed upon(past its initial members), the whole 'european' political spectrum was in on it. one had no viable option, via elections, to not agree with it, to not accept it.

now that you have a left and a right(more or less) across the EU, after you move past political declarations and politicized populist stances, you realize the beauty of what the fuck is going on: pragmatist at its core, this is just a fight for control of the EU between two actual sides.

how many ate shit about leaving the EU and after being elected/gaining power they did nothing?; all of them, because they knew it was never about leaving but about controlling the EU.
(mind you here, UK left before all of this infighting broke out; that's why it regrets it now. UK could've ended up spearheading the takeover.)


UK does not regret leaving the EU, attitudes haven't really moved since the referendum most people just want to get it over with and leave.
it regrets the unfortunate timing of it/sees it as a missed opportunity.
how regrettable the act itself was, will be judged by the people+history i guess.

pov on the italians https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/29/italy-political-turmoil-angers-backers-lega-five-star-movement-coalition
While both M5S and the Lega are traditionally Eurosceptic, their individual and joint programmes neither called for an exit from the European single currency or the EU. Instead, the coalition’s objective was to seek a renegotiation of European treaties. Giuseppe Conte, the law professor nominated to lead their administration, who resigned on Sunday evening after Mattarella vetoed Savona, had also said that Italy would remain within the EU.

Francesco Giavazzi, an economics professor at Bocconi University in Milan, said that by backing Savona, Salvini had intended to ensure that the coalition’s bid for government failed and that fresh elections would be called.

“His tactic from day one was to go back to elections,” said Giavazzi. “He did it in such a way he knew the president would refuse.”

Salvini’s popularity has increased since the March vote, but it remains to be seen if his gamble will pay off.

“Salvini is a very good campaigner who has never finished anything in his life,” said Giavazzi. “He knows that if he campaigns, he wins, but if you give him a real job to do it soon becomes clear that he’s unable to do it.”

About 57% of Italians wanted a government whose programme included generous tax cuts, a universal basic income and a raft of hardline policies against illegal immigrants.

After the events of Sunday and Monday, what they have now is another temporary, unelected prime minister who is a europhile. Carlo Cottarelli, a former director at the International Monetary Fund, has been tasked by Mattarella with forming an interim government to steer the country towards another election.

But his administration is expected to lose a vote of confidence in parliament, meaning the ballot could now be held as early as September.
looks similar to the greek fiasco; any guesses on if it'll be the same outcome or not?.
having a high public debt may demand the same conclusion.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4733 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-29 13:11:06
May 29 2018 13:10 GMT
#22040
Lol. The name of the new law is pure gold. Short story --> Hungary is going to criminalize helping illegal immigrants and the new law is called "Stop Soros Act". Life is stranger than fiction.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44288242
Pathetic Greta hater.
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