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On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it.
Fear of disappointment versus fear of getting your ass beat are two totally different things.
I will say that I was raised in an environment where corporal punishment was used extensively. Most of the punishments utilized by both my mother and father would have easily landed them in jail today. I was a real fucked up individual up to about 3 years ago when I finally resolved my differences with my parents and just accepted them for who they are (both who lived in a totally different society that had different cultural norms before coming to America).
I myself would never personally condone corporal punishment, ever. It is too easy for a parent to get carried away if they lose their temper. It causes such an extensive amount of emotional damage that it is absolutely unreal. Everyone makes mistakes, and it is very easy to get carried away when you are disappointed with your child.
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Canada11355 Posts
I came back to respond to the question "How were you punished for doing really bad things as a child if you weren't spanked?"
I can't quite remember doing anything really terrible as a child. I tried to drive my dad's pickup once as a very young child but didn't figure out how to start it but succeeded in putting it into neutral somehow. Obviously my parents aren't awful and noticed this right away, pulled me from the car, stopped it and sent me to my room. After everyone calmed down I they both came and talked to me, I can't remember what they said but if I had to render a guess it was something along the lines of "Driving is not for children, you could have been hurt *cue crying* could have died etc" maybe I'll ask them next time I see them and report back here. My memory is terrible
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Alright, so I have been seeing a lot of people trying to quote the "Respect always has an element of fear to it." and state that they in their personal experiences have never seen anything remotely close to that being true. I figured since my own opinion was met with the same sort of responses, I'd ask someone with a great deal more worldly experience. The person I chose is one of the most respected Grandmasters of all time across many disciplines. He is one of the most decorated and accomplished martial artists of all time in addition to being the heir to the Presidency of the World Taekwondo Federation and World Martial Arts core and in my opinion this more than qualified him to answer regarding this issue.
His words were as follows (paraphrased slightly to correct english): "Respect most certainly has an element of fear to it. That fear is not necessarily of a physical beating, but moreso the possibilities that might occur if they were to face me. Many of my opponents feared and respected me. I do not aim for my students to fear me, but if I must instill some fear in them to make them understand an important life lesson, it is of course necessary to do so. Discipline is something that must be hammered into an individual like a smith creating a masterful sword. The process is a constant burning and hammering until that person is a work of art." -Grandmaster Byong Yu
Granted, this is the martial artists' viewpoint of it, but it is also my view and one I hold to be true. The legendary people of history are usually not handed an easy life. It is one of hardship and constant discipline, but it ends up with them achieving such incredible things we can admire and wonder how they managed to do it.
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Once that I remember, my mother said I laughed at her while she was doing it the last time and she never tried again.
I have spanked my kids in the past and under certain circumstances would do it again. Generally a stern look is all I need to stop behavioral issues, then follow it up with a little talk.
My ex-wife used to yell and scream and spank at them over every tiny thing, used to piss me off so much. Was probably what we fought about the most, so glad she is out of my life now if only the courts would grant me full custody so I could get her out of my kid's life.
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I'm surprised so many people voted "yes" to the asia one... My parents just hit me with a stick when I was growing up, wtf is a spank you know?
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i was spanked as a child sometimes. it wasnt seldom but it wasnt regular either. every time i did something that called for a harsher punishment i would get spanked (or more accurately, hit with a stick)
most of it was on my hands, sometimes enough to make it bruise
but i have without a doubt in my mind that i deserved that punishment and it was the right way to discipline me. i never feared my parents for one second and i never harboured any negative feelings for them as a result of the physical punishment.
in my opinion those feelings only appear if the child feels unsafe or unloved even when he does the right things, and if that is the case then corporal punishment is the least of your problems. but in my case, i knew that my parents loved me and cared for me and wanted the best for me unconditionally, so i never doubted their intentions for smacking me when i did wrong things.
when i was young this would help me make the right decisions, as it made me fear the stick, but not my parents. and as i grew older id ask questions and seek answers as to why those decisions are right or wrong, and i respected my parents' answers because i know they would never lead me to a path that is bad for me.
when i have kids i will definitely use corporal punishment if i have to. its not going to be something i enjoy or something ill look forward to, but if it must be done as a last resort then i would do it. if my child grows to fear me as a person and feels unsafe in my home, then i refuse to believe corporal punishment is the reason. the reason kids fear their parents is because they dont feel their love even when they do the all the right things.
just my 2 cents on corporal punishment
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
never got spanked because i was an awesome kid
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Without getting too much into the debate, if there is anyone out there who would like to avoid smacking or hitting their child but isn't sure how to be an effective parent without it, I recommend the book 'Unconditional Parenting' by Alfie Kohn. Unlike a lot of parenting gurus he actually makes a big effort to understand the research - the bibliography runs to several pages, mostly references to journal articles and research.
Parenting isn't something that's taught in schools, and for many of us the only example we have is the way our parents raised us. Since becoming a parent, one thing I've learned is that we all worry that we are screwing it up. Trying to do things differently from our own parents can sometimes feel like heading off into the unknown without a map. Books can help, and so can talking to like-minded people.
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On September 22 2014 06:30 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:24 Crushinator wrote:On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it. That clearly isn't true. I could send you a huge list of people I respect but do not fear in the slightest, but I won't. I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect.
i don't respect police because i fear them; i respect (some) police officers because they take on a difficult and dangerous role from a sense of solidarity with, and compassion for, their fellow man.
Respecting a person for the quality of their character is completely different than respecting the ability of a person to do you harm.
Real respect is to coerced respect as sex is to rape.
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Whether you people want to correctly identify things or not, respect is a form of hierarchical structure and discipline. Without these qualities, it is not respect, but admiration that you describe. One does not "respect" police because they have weapons and can inflict adverse consequences on your life. You can "admire" them because you like what they do and how they do it. To respect something means you do not tread on it because there are consequences for doing so. It may not be a physical consequence, but there must be consequences for disrespectful or harmful actions. However, a physical consequence is by far the most commonly understood.
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On September 22 2014 08:36 Millitron wrote:
There's a difference between spanking and causing injury. Properly done, it won't hurt more than a little sting.
So what's your plan the child starts to ignore it because it's just a little sting? Cause the only two options I see increasing the severity leading to abuse or trying different methods. Which begs the question why weren't those methods used instead of physical punishment in the first place.
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My dad's dad beat him with a belt. My dad spanked me as a punishment until he accidentally slapped my lower back quite hard, and then he stopped. At that point they switched to "counting to 3" when I was being a shithead, and if it got to three, I lost privileges.
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On September 22 2014 15:00 sCCrooked wrote:
Whether you people want to correctly identify things or not, respect is a form of hierarchical structure and discipline. Without these qualities, it is not respect, but admiration that you describe. One does not "respect" police because they have weapons and can inflict adverse consequences on your life. You can "admire" them because you like what they do and how they do it. To respect something means you do not tread on it because there are consequences for doing so. It may not be a physical consequence, but there must be consequences for disrespectful or harmful actions. However, a physical consequence is by far the most commonly understood.
Nah, you will respect your neighbours or your waiters because it's a good thing to do, not because you admire them. If you experimented kindness from others, you know it's a great feeling and it helps though the day, so if you are kind and respectful to others, they'll be respectful to you. You don't need to be feared to be respected.
Respect and authority is 2 differents things. A guy who got beaten by his parents might accept their authority easier, but they definitly won't respect them for the major part. Just read a bunch of comments here where people were hit and they cut the link with their parents because of that.
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On September 22 2014 16:05 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:00 sCCrooked wrote:
Whether you people want to correctly identify things or not, respect is a form of hierarchical structure and discipline. Without these qualities, it is not respect, but admiration that you describe. One does not "respect" police because they have weapons and can inflict adverse consequences on your life. You can "admire" them because you like what they do and how they do it. To respect something means you do not tread on it because there are consequences for doing so. It may not be a physical consequence, but there must be consequences for disrespectful or harmful actions. However, a physical consequence is by far the most commonly understood. Nah, you will respect your neighbours or your waiters because it's a good thing to do, not because you admire them. If you experimented kindness from others, you know it's a great feeling and it helps though the day, so if you are kind and respectful to others, they'll be respectful to you. You don't need to be feared to be respected. Respect and authority is 2 differents things. A guy who got beaten by his parents might accept their authority easier, but they definitly won't respect them for the major part. Just read a bunch of comments here where people were hit and they cut the link with their parents because of that.
And I also read a lot of comments stating that they felt it was justified, more than the ones who cut ties.
And it's very likely a lot of people that cut ties with their parents, were abused and beat, not spanked... So they don't understand what spanking like some of us others have experienced.
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I think my parents worked more with positive reinforcement rather than threatening with violence if I messed up. If I did something bad they would just tell me they were disappointed and that would hurt more than any belt would :p
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My dad's spanks were so soft that they weren't even painful. He tells me that in fact, while he was "spanking me", I was laughing more than anything. I can't remember if I was actually laughing but I definitely don't have any memory of it being painful.
But when I did something wrong, he looked so angry and scary that I had to learn my lesson and to obey. I think that was a great way to handle things, but it seems like it required an incredible amount of self-control when I compare it to some of the stories here.
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On September 22 2014 04:37 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that. Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical.
how is that cynicism?; that's just a simple case of choosing the lesser evil and it works exactly like that for toddlers. they respond more/better to psychological punishments and less to physical ones because those(the former) hurt the most, because those are more damaging.
you are abusing/damaging your kids by not spanking them.
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For some the respect of the police might also be connected to the respect of the law, which in turn might be connected to a respect princip that if you respected and keep the law, the law will also protect you.
You oversimplify what respect is, it's different from admiration (in how I see it) and it's also different from fear. I'd claim that you can make someone respect you without either makign them fear or admire you. You could also argue that respect doesn't naturally come from hierachical structures, but from when people are equal and view eachother as that. That there's some consequence seems redundant to mention, no matter if you're respected by someone or not, your actions are gonna have some kind of consequence, whether it reinforces the view they had of you before or makes that someone see you in a new light, anything you do with this person will have an effect.
Physical consequence being the most commonly understood as punishment also seems... inaccurate. If we go back on topic, a child might do something bad to be physically punished, if they learn that it's a mean of getting their parents attention, especially if there's issues, a child will often do "naughty" and "disrespectful" things just to receive attention, whether this attention they get will be a slap or a shout.
From how I see it, words (especially to YOUR child) are the best way of making sure that you sent the message to want to send, simply because you have more ways to express yourself than if you spank / hit someone.
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On September 20 2014 14:56 Shebuha wrote:
I got spanked less than 5 times when I was a kid. I only got spanked when I dun goofed hard and it was only one smack... Then I got a talking to which was always way worse for some reason.
We are similar in this regard
Also my parents soon found that limiting video game usage was far more effective XD
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I think corporal punishment is effective in certain circumstances. Darting out into a busy parking lot, right before they touch a hot stove/fireplace, stuff like that. Situations where the pain from disobedience is far worse than the slap (beating is never ok or effective).
It might work, it might not, but I would much rather deal with slapping a child's hand/ass to let them know disobedience in such an instance is painful, than dealing with a run over/burnt child.
That's not to say they don't need or deserve the conversation/explanation about why, but putting a kid in timeout for darting into a parking lot before grocery shopping is rarely practical or any more likely to prevent it (especially on the way out) than a quick swat with whatever verbal/privilege related discipline would be appropriate.
Of course if you spank your kid every time they disobey it wouldn't be very effective, but I don't think spanking is never appropriate.
Different kids have different temperaments completely independent of parenting. I would agree that most kids in the vast majority of instances don't need (or benefit from) spanking. However, some kids, in some instances, do. Do some parents screw it up...? Duh? Most parents do the best they know how (or think appropriate). Is that woefully inadequate in many cases? Of course!
Speaking of punishment and behavior correction, I think it's pretty silly we think the kids shouldn't be spanked but often the same people will be calling for the adult to be financially spanked (almost certainly hurting the child), then sent to an adult 'time-out' where we know they will have to deal with the psychological trauma of accepting about a 1:24 chance of getting physically 'spanked' (raped [in the US]) All of which generally making the child's life worse (except in especially abusive situations)
Caring about correcting behavior instead of finding vengeance shouldn't stop when people turn 18, or are of a certain background.
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EPT
