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Adrian Peterson, one of the top players in the National Football League, was recently suspended for "switching" his child. Basically, he took a thin branch and beat his child on the back and butt until the kid was bleeding. This injury was apparently severe enough to merit serious criminal charges against Mr. Peterson.
I felt like the punishment was reasonable, although a bit extreme. Ms. Peterson will certainly lose millions of dollars in contract and endorsements as a result of the fallout from his arrest.
I personally think that spanking is okay in limited amounts, but that Adrian Peterson's case was bad because of its degree. Inflicting those kinds of injuries on a 4-year-old kid is way out of the realm of normal punishment, and more into the territory of the parent losing control.
The American public has basically engaged in public debate about spanking, with many public figures taking the politically correct view that spanking is unacceptable in the modern day and age. (By the way, both of the wives of the previous two presidents have previously admitted to spanking their kids.)
Anyways, I was having coffee with some friends, and I learned that my American perspective was totally in the minority. I asked them how often they spanked their children. One guy said he spanked his kids three times a day. All these guys were from non-American countries, and I realized that spanking is totally a cultural issue, which could differ a ton by where you grew up.
So I created these polls just for my own curiosity and to improve my understanding of how parenting is viewed around the world.
Thanks!
Poll: Do you live in North America, and were you spanked as a child?Yes (282) 71% No (118) 30% 400 total votes Your vote: Do you live in North America, and were you spanked as a child? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Do you live in Asia, and were you spanked as a child?Yes (62) 68% No (29) 32% 91 total votes Your vote: Do you live in Asia, and were you spanked as a child? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Do you live in Europe, and were you spanked as a child?No (394) 66% Yes (206) 34% 600 total votes Your vote: Do you live in Europe, and were you spanked as a child? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: Do you live somewhere else, and were you spanked?Yes (55) 67% No (27) 33% 82 total votes Your vote: Do you live somewhere else, and were you spanked? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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I once got spanked with chopsticks when I was 5. It definitely stung, but I'm pretty sure I deserved it.
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There are many degrees of "spanking" so I'm not sure what the poll will show. When I, and I presume lots of people, think of spanking it's just a pretty innocuous slap on the ass. Other people like Adrian Peterson have a totally different concept of what a spank is.
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Only twice, I was a good child.  I think most people still spank their kids around here in Midwest US. But yeah, depends on your definition on spanking. Whipping your kid until he bleeds seems kinda wrong.
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The belt was the worst. Wooden spoon hurt like a bitch too.
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Never hard enough to make me bleed, but I definitely came out better for it. At a certain point it crosses the threshold of punishment and seems more like crazy venting and most certainly abuse, though I don't think the simple act of spanking itself is particularly harmful.
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Beating a kid until blood is drawn is definitely crossing the line between punishment and abuse. A slap on the bum (not even that hard) causes more embarrassment than pain to a child and they usually do not want to go through that many times.
Whipping a kid with a branch? Different thing completely. He is a freaking professional football player, and a strong person. I assume he didn't hit the kid lightly.
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I was spanked, also got the belt or wooden spoon sometimes and a switch a couple of times. For me it didn't do anything, I'm no better for being spanked. As far as discipline goes corporal punishment is pretty much the worst way to go. I don't hate my parents for doing it, they were raised on corporal punishment and abuse themselves. However, if I ever do have kids won't be spanking them. There's no reason for the senseless discipline to continue for more generations, it's the easy way out of actual parenting IMO.
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On September 20 2014 13:40 Random_0 wrote:
I felt like the punishment was reasonable, although a bit extreme. Ms. Peterson will certainly lose millions of dollars in contract and endorsements as a result of the fallout from his arrest.
What the fuck does that mean? Was it reasonable or not, according to you? The kid's ballsack was bleeding more than 6 hours after the incident, and even Adrian Peterson, who has a "whooping" room and multiple belts that he chooses from when "whooping" his kids thought that at one point he put a nasty gash into the boy's thigh when the branch whipped around front.
And what is with your reference to his baby mama "certainly" losing millions of dollars? You would let your kid get whooped regularly to the point that he has open wounds in order to collect a larger check from the child's estranged father? Would you, personally, take such a beating to collect such checks?
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I remember getting spanked a few times I guess? It wasn't many that is for sure and I think most of those were with a hand on the butt (maybe a belt once or twice).
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I got spanked less than 5 times when I was a kid. I only got spanked when I dun goofed hard and it was only one smack... Then I got a talking to which was always way worse for some reason.
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Think I got spanked once or twice. I don't see it as a bad thing, obviously doing it until the kid is bleeding is terrible imo.
But a normal spanking no that's not to cruel.
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ah, now i know where all of blade's ladder rage comes from...
protoss.
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many people in America whose parents are immigrants (esp Asian ones) got spanked, so I think having a separate poll might be a good idea (or maybe I'm just curious if non-Asians get spanked as well)
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I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason.
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This topic normally will bring in a set of people that view spanking as a crime against humanity, so fair warning if it descends into massive moral preening by someone. There are, in fact, activists on this topic, which is something of a sad reality of the modern age.
The short answer is that a lot of sociological issues break into these 30/30/40 splits. Some kids need a lot more corporal punishment than others. Some need spanking, where others will think a "time out" is worse than murder. It really takes knowing a child. There's a "line" that shouldn't be crossed, but that line normally only gets crossed when alcohol is involved.
While I was spanked a few times, it's always the bar of soap in the mouth the first time I swore at my brother that I remember. In other issues, I rarely swear, haha.
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On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason.
Have fun endlessly debating with your kids.
Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous.
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I got my ass whooped everyday, till I was 10 years old. I've been struck with spoons, Wooden paddles, and the parent favorite belt.
Honestly I wasn't a fan of it.
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Canada11355 Posts
I was never hit once as a child. I turned out ok.
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Reminds me of a thread from a long ass time ago here, had some interesting arguments between those who held beliefs on the extreme opposite ends of the issue.
Dug it up in another window, surprised it's still there.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/32150-why-beating-you-kid-isnt-all-that-bad
Anyway, the Peterson method is obviously pretty medieval and disgusting, though sadly happens more than most people think (seen it in friends homes growing up many times).
Simple palm to ass spankings, that is more of a grey area. I got them growing up, but I believe they are not necessary. It did get results, as in I would avoid certain behaviors in fear of the spank, but I think it would have been a bit more effective to simply verbally drill in the reasoning why the specific bad behavior was considered bad in the first place (like a temper tantrum in a public place could be explained as embarrassing to the parents obviously, but more importantly to the child him/herself, asking them what they would think if they saw someone else acting like a loud little cry baby, and that is how everyone in that public place is going to remember them from then on...Yunno.. things like that. Would that have worked on me? Maybe, maybe not, but if I was locked in my room over and over getting the same lecture drilled in my head explaining the reason(s) why my behavior was undesirable, particularly for my own self image, as well as how others see me, then I think I would eventually get it, and most importantly, understand and believe it. With the spankings, I still wanted to misbehave, but I simply did not to avoid physical pain. So basically, I did not learn very much aside from just how fun it would be once the fear of those spankings disappeared (and oh lord, when my Dad left my Mother when I was 11, I walked all over her, got in masses of trouble, and sadly ended up dropping out at 17. Luckily I had a moment of clarity at 18, and salvaged what I could of my potential, but I'm getting away from the point... is very late here  ) Not saying spankings alone caused all of my adolescent turmoil, was more of the instant leap from a severe fear of discipline to no fear whatsoever.
But back on point. Basically, behaving to avoid punishment goes more in line with the spanking, but behaving because that is how you want and believe you should act, while trickier to accomplish, is something I think parents should strive to instill. A bit idealist perhaps, but very possible to accomplish. ^_^
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My parents had a designated bamboo stick to discipline us ( my sister and I ) when we were bad. How much we were spanked depended on what we did wrong. There were always red marks on our legs afterwards though. Back the it was horrible, but now we all just laugh about it lol.
Spanking to the point of drawing blood definitely crosses the line though.
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I don't see the use of spanking someone with something. A slap to the face hurts way less and is probably more effective? I don't see the point of leaving marks.
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kneeling on rice boys....
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Spanking is a medieval practice in my opinion. Your literally using the fear kids have with pain as a deterrent and taking advantage of kids low thresholds for pain as a punishment.
There are better ways to raise and punish children. I was spanked one by one of my moms friends. I laughed at him after and the next day I laughed at the black eye my mom gave him. I was 12 or 13.
Other than that I was not spanked.
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On September 20 2014 16:26 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Spanking is a medieval practice in my opinion. Your literally using the fear kids have with pain as a deterrent and taking advantage of kids low thresholds for pain as a punishment.
There are better ways to raise and punish children. I was spanked one by one of my moms friends. I laughed at him after and the next day I laughed at the black eye my mom gave him. I was 12 or 13.
Other than that I was not spanked.
well spanking someone else's kid is crazy stupid
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On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous.
if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids.
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Well i was spanked once in my life .. just once but i still turned out ok .. didn't do too many crazy stuff in my life and i am a obedient to them
i don't think you need to spank a kid as long as you handle the talking to your kid part well ..
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On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous.
Not sure why you'd be debating with your kids, at the end of the day your word is law. Explaining something to your child isn't a courtroom case and your child isn't a debate mastermind.
On September 20 2014 16:36 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous. if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids.
This a million times over.
On September 20 2014 15:20 29 fps wrote:
many people in America whose parents are immigrants (esp Asian ones) got spanked, so I think having a separate poll might be a good idea (or maybe I'm just curious if non-Asians get spanked as well)
Being spanked happens regardless of race, it might be more common from certain backgrounds but I'm white and got spanked.
If people want to spank their kids I'm not going to run around looking to have them locked up. I will without doubt look down on them as far as parental abilities are concerned however. Though, if ANY weapon is involved (Belt, spoon, switch, 2x4, etc) it crosses the line entirely. There's no sensible reason an adult needs a weapon to beat their child EVER. You can't whip an adult, no person in their right mind can make a case for whipping a child.
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I wasn't spanked that often, but when I was it was pretty mild. Even so, I distinctly remember the feeling of humiliation and betrayl it causes.
That being said, so long as its not taken so far as to draw blood, I think a bit of spanking is ok, but I would much rather see a move away from it culturally.
On September 20 2014 16:00 Fecalfeast wrote:
I was never hit once as a child. I turned out ok.
Or did you. DUN DUN DUN
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The "europe" poll needs to be a lot more precise. In all the countries in europe I've lived in, everyone would be horrified at even the thought of spanking a child. It's seen as something which people maybe did like maybe in the 70's/80's and earlier, but has no place in modern society at all. o.0
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On September 20 2014 17:01 killerdog wrote:
The "europe" poll needs to be a lot more precise. In all the countries in europe I've lived in, everyone would be horrified at even the thought of spanking a child. It's seen as something which people maybe did like maybe in the 70's/80's and earlier, but has no place in modern society at all. o.0
there is probably a large difference between western / middle / northern europe and eastern / southern europe. here in germany its illegal to spank your child (makes sense as it is illegal to beat anyone and children arent the property of their parents) so its broad consensus to not do it. but thats not the case everywhere.
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South East Asian origin here, and I never got spanked at all. Almost got spanked once but that was because I did a really bad thing lol.
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On September 20 2014 16:36 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous. if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids.
That's got little to do with it. You cannot reason with children, their brains aren't developed enough for that. They will not think "yes, this rational argument my dad just gave for not being allowed to do that sounds reasonable. I will not do that anymore", they think "If I do that, I risk getting spanked/shouted at/shamed; doing that does not pay off to me, even though I really want to".
Imagine what schools would be like if teachers were required to give rational arguments to children on why they should sit still and be quiet in class.
Then again, nowadays everything that even slightly reeks of discipline or respect for authority is considered bad.
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On September 20 2014 17:25 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 16:36 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous. if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids. That's got little to do with it. You cannot reason with children, their brains aren't developed enough for that. They will not think "yes, this rational argument my dad just gave for not being allowed to do that sounds reasonable. I will not do that anymore", they think "If I do that, I risk getting spanked/shouted at/shamed; doing that does not pay off to me, even though I really want to". Imagine what schools would be like if teachers were required to give rational arguments to children on why they should sit still and be quiet in class. Then again, nowadays everything that even slightly reeks of discipline or respect for authority is considered bad.
i am certain your teachers did not beat you, lol. we are not in the 19th century anymore.
if you can not explain something to your child, then there is a pretty big chance that you have no idea why you explain it to it in the first place.
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On September 20 2014 17:32 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 17:25 maartendq wrote:On September 20 2014 16:36 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous. if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids. That's got little to do with it. You cannot reason with children, their brains aren't developed enough for that. They will not think "yes, this rational argument my dad just gave for not being allowed to do that sounds reasonable. I will not do that anymore", they think "If I do that, I risk getting spanked/shouted at/shamed; doing that does not pay off to me, even though I really want to". Imagine what schools would be like if teachers were required to give rational arguments to children on why they should sit still and be quiet in class. Then again, nowadays everything that even slightly reeks of discipline or respect for authority is considered bad. i am certain your teachers did not beat you, lol. we are not in the 19th century anymore. if you can not explain something to your child, then there is a pretty big chance that you have no idea why you explain it to it in the first place.
I didn't get beaten by teachers, obviously. Just learned very quickly that "because I say so" was a valid argument to not do stuff, both at home and at school. That gradually changed when I grew into a teenager, of course, but even then we were expected to do what the teachers told us to, not to question every word they said. Especially the older generation of teachers had very little patience with overly vocal pupils. The younger generation had less problems with that, but I think a lot of that stems from the fact that they're still growing in their job, and are trying to find their place in an often new work environment (i.e. I want to be a cool teacher). When they get more experienced, they seem to shift their focus more towards the content rather than outside appearances. After all, 40-somethings are rarely regarded 'cool' by teenagers anyway.
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Framing the debate in personal anecdotes is, at best, mildly entertaining. If we are to get any real understanding of how physical violence meted out by parents to a child affects the child's psychology, neuroscience is the only real avenue of discourse that is of any interest.
There are no conclusive results yet, but every sign seems to indicate that corporal punishment overall has an adverse effect on the psyche of a small child. It also appears that spanking and other forms of physical disciplinary measures are usually born from frustration or anger on the parent's part, not any real desire to impart life-lessons. It's a venting mechanism for inept parents, more often than not.
That being said, the worst I ever suffered was when my grandparents pinched my cheeks hard enough to make me wince, though that was born more from rheumatism and poor eyesight that any malice.
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On September 20 2014 17:35 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 17:32 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 17:25 maartendq wrote:On September 20 2014 16:36 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous. if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids. That's got little to do with it. You cannot reason with children, their brains aren't developed enough for that. They will not think "yes, this rational argument my dad just gave for not being allowed to do that sounds reasonable. I will not do that anymore", they think "If I do that, I risk getting spanked/shouted at/shamed; doing that does not pay off to me, even though I really want to". Imagine what schools would be like if teachers were required to give rational arguments to children on why they should sit still and be quiet in class. Then again, nowadays everything that even slightly reeks of discipline or respect for authority is considered bad. i am certain your teachers did not beat you, lol. we are not in the 19th century anymore. if you can not explain something to your child, then there is a pretty big chance that you have no idea why you explain it to it in the first place. I didn't get beaten by teachers, obviously. Just learned very quickly that "because I say so" was a valid argument to not do stuff, both at home and at school. That gradually changed when I grew into a teenager, of course, but even then we were expected to do what the teachers told us to, not to question every word they said. Especially the older generation of teachers had very little patience with overly vocal pupils. The younger generation had less problems with that, but I think a lot of that stems from the fact that they're still growing in their job, and are trying to find their place in an often new work environment (i.e. I want to be a cool teacher). When they get more experienced, they seem to shift their focus more towards the content rather than outside appearances. After all, 40-somethings are rarely regarded 'cool' by teenagers anyway.
soooo your teachers did not beat you and you still behaved?
interesting...
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I always thought hitting a kid with a belt or a stick was child abuse and would lead to a good amount of jail.
Reading some comments it looks like it's not the case.
One slap when the kid is really annoying or mean, ok, but hitting them repetitively with a belt should lead to at least 10 years of jail imho.
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On September 20 2014 18:08 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 17:35 maartendq wrote:On September 20 2014 17:32 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 17:25 maartendq wrote:On September 20 2014 16:36 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous. if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids. That's got little to do with it. You cannot reason with children, their brains aren't developed enough for that. They will not think "yes, this rational argument my dad just gave for not being allowed to do that sounds reasonable. I will not do that anymore", they think "If I do that, I risk getting spanked/shouted at/shamed; doing that does not pay off to me, even though I really want to". Imagine what schools would be like if teachers were required to give rational arguments to children on why they should sit still and be quiet in class. Then again, nowadays everything that even slightly reeks of discipline or respect for authority is considered bad. i am certain your teachers did not beat you, lol. we are not in the 19th century anymore. if you can not explain something to your child, then there is a pretty big chance that you have no idea why you explain it to it in the first place. I didn't get beaten by teachers, obviously. Just learned very quickly that "because I say so" was a valid argument to not do stuff, both at home and at school. That gradually changed when I grew into a teenager, of course, but even then we were expected to do what the teachers told us to, not to question every word they said. Especially the older generation of teachers had very little patience with overly vocal pupils. The younger generation had less problems with that, but I think a lot of that stems from the fact that they're still growing in their job, and are trying to find their place in an often new work environment (i.e. I want to be a cool teacher). When they get more experienced, they seem to shift their focus more towards the content rather than outside appearances. After all, 40-somethings are rarely regarded 'cool' by teenagers anyway. soooo your teachers did not beat you and you still behaved? interesting...
That's probably the difference between a good teacher with autority, and a pitiful teacher you can't make himself listen but with a stick ?
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I have never found any need for punishment of any kind. This bullshit about having to condition children like pigeons is just ridiculous to me, children are hardwired to see you as an authority and take your suggestions seriously. They also respond very well to relationships based on reciprocation. You give me shit, i will not be inclined to do aything fun with you. They draw on the wall, I explain that drawing is better when you do it on a piece of paper. Bedtime can be difficult, but I don't think you can punish a child to sleep. I don't know how it is when a kid has some kind of condition obviously.
I honestly don't understand what a child could possibly do to deserve being phyisically assaulted, but people will rationalize anything if it makes them feel better about their relationship with their parents and/or kids.
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I was spanked but i was never in much pain.
Spanking is ok as long as it is not used frequently,and shouldnt be very painful.If you have to spank your child every day,you are ether bad parent or there is something wrong with your child psychologically.
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On September 20 2014 17:35 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 17:32 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 17:25 maartendq wrote:On September 20 2014 16:36 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous. if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids. That's got little to do with it. You cannot reason with children, their brains aren't developed enough for that. They will not think "yes, this rational argument my dad just gave for not being allowed to do that sounds reasonable. I will not do that anymore", they think "If I do that, I risk getting spanked/shouted at/shamed; doing that does not pay off to me, even though I really want to". Imagine what schools would be like if teachers were required to give rational arguments to children on why they should sit still and be quiet in class. Then again, nowadays everything that even slightly reeks of discipline or respect for authority is considered bad. i am certain your teachers did not beat you, lol. we are not in the 19th century anymore. if you can not explain something to your child, then there is a pretty big chance that you have no idea why you explain it to it in the first place. Just learned very quickly that "because I say so" was a valid argument to not do stuff, both at home and at school.
You know, i have haten that saying since i was a child because atleast for me it just shows that the adult doesnt have a valid point.
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On September 20 2014 18:22 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 17:35 maartendq wrote:On September 20 2014 17:32 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 17:25 maartendq wrote:On September 20 2014 16:36 hfglgg wrote:On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:On September 20 2014 15:21 GettingIt wrote:
I was spanked as a child and don't see how people can think that spanking is okay. There are ways to teach children proper behavior that doesn't involve hitting them. Kids don't know any better they should be taught the consequences of their actions and why they shouldn't do improper things and what those reasons are. Getting hit isnt one of those reason. Have fun endlessly debating with your kids. Also, I'd take a spanking any day over the mental abuse that nowadays is often considered an acceptable educational method. Obviously not referring to above example... beating your kid to the point of bleeding is just ridiculous. if you dont want to talk to your kids, dont have kids. That's got little to do with it. You cannot reason with children, their brains aren't developed enough for that. They will not think "yes, this rational argument my dad just gave for not being allowed to do that sounds reasonable. I will not do that anymore", they think "If I do that, I risk getting spanked/shouted at/shamed; doing that does not pay off to me, even though I really want to". Imagine what schools would be like if teachers were required to give rational arguments to children on why they should sit still and be quiet in class. Then again, nowadays everything that even slightly reeks of discipline or respect for authority is considered bad. i am certain your teachers did not beat you, lol. we are not in the 19th century anymore. if you can not explain something to your child, then there is a pretty big chance that you have no idea why you explain it to it in the first place. Just learned very quickly that "because I say so" was a valid argument to not do stuff, both at home and at school. You know, i have haten that saying since i was a child because atleast for me it just shows that the adult doesnt have a valid point.
It can very well be that whatever rationale underlies the argument is simply too complex for a young child to understand. Humans are genetically hardwired to accept adult authority as kids, which can easily be observed in the fact that most children will share their parents' beliefs and values until they reach the age of reason. There are good evolutionary reasons for this, and there is nothing inherently wrong with a parent ruling by fiat rather than compromise.
It only becomes a problem if the parent is indoctrinating the child with patently bad or erroneous ideas, which happens rather often.
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Interesting results, Europe vs the rest of the world.
I personally didn't get spanked ever. My brother did a few times, but I was a much more well-behaved kid. He was a good kid as well, but sometimes he crossed the line. He was the first kid, a lot older.
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Northern Ireland25372 Posts
Very rarely, if I had properly fucked up and no spoons or anything.
I see people who seem to use it as a first course of action and don't even explain to their kids what it is they are doing wrong. Can't see that being a good method.
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never been spanked, my little brother was a few times tho when he did extremly dumb shit
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Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence.
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On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence.
nope, not every child gets spanked.
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On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence.
none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick.
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On September 20 2014 18:15 Crushinator wrote:
I have never found any need for punishment of any kind. This bullshit about having to condition children like pigeons is just ridiculous to me, children are hardwired to see you as an authority and take your suggestions seriously. They also respond very well to relationships based on reciprocation. You give me shit, i will not be inclined to do aything fun with you. They draw on the wall, I explain that drawing is better when you do it on a piece of paper. Bedtime can be difficult, but I don't think you can punish a child to sleep. I don't know how it is when a kid has some kind of condition obviously.
I honestly don't understand what a child could possibly do to deserve being phyisically assaulted, but people will rationalize anything if it makes them feel better about their relationship with their parents and/or kids.
Maybe some kids are like what you described; I certainly wasn't, and I see MANY children who could do with a good spanking because they most DEFINITELY do not see their parents as an authority, and do not take their suggestions seriously. Not all children are made alike. I'm fairly confident your mind would change if you had any naughty, high-energy children who refuse to listen to you.
Some children will turn out just fine without spanking, but I was not one of them. I'm very thankful that I was spanked, because I was pretty naughty as a kid and would be in a lot worse situation now if I hadn't been. It is important to draw a line between beating and spanking, however. Child abuse is terrible, but punitive and loving punishment, whether timeouts or spanking or grounding or whathaveyou are generally positive influences on a child's life.
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On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick.
It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing.
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There's a huge difference between being beaten by a belt or a stick for misbehaving and just getting whacked for doing something stupid. Sorry, if my kid does something blatantly dangerous or stupid, I'm going to slap him in the face and I'm not going to be pleasant about it.
Actions have consequences, anyone remotely responsible understands that. If my kid starts throwing rocks at cars, I'm going to slap him for being an idiot. Being slapped isn't that painful (compare it to falling off your bike for example) and it does serve its purpose as a sharp reminder to think of the consequences of your actions.
Telling a kid to "go get the belt" though is stupid I feel. Just slap him? Using belts or sticks to leave a genuinely painful impression on the kid (e.g. hours after the spanking) is stupid and it doesn't help the kid understand what he did. If you really want to make a big impression on the kid, grounding him to his room for even a day can be pretty big already, I would think.
Well, that's what I think. I think breaking a kid's toys to make a point would be far nastier than whacking a kid though for example.
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When I discussed this once with a group of friends, it turned into quite the heated debate, until one of them said: "Beating children is horrible, and besides, spankings are wasted on kids as they can't fully appreciate the pleasure of a good, long spanking session."
Needless to say the discussion took a very interesting turn from there.
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Yes. Whenever I did something wrong and it was really bad.
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On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing.
The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge.
And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally.
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I think the line that people in this thread draw between acceptable physical punishment and unacceptable is pretty arbitrary and easy to abuse. Incognotos and Limans posts are a good example of this.
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Never got spanked, but got my hair pulled a few times and mouth washed with soap. 
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On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally.
There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain.
At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well.
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I think a good rule for spanking is having a designated hitting area (aka butt/legs)
This lets the kids know a specific punishment awaits you for doing something completely inappropriate
If you start randomly hitting them, it's going to look more like rage attack (and more likely to be)
Also what you SAY when you spank is very very important
If you're demeaning the child for what he has done, that is going to hurt him more and leave more resentment compared to the spanking itself
Asian culture definitely lends itself to spanking, and I did get spanked by my Korean parents
I don't disagree with spanking, as long as you know what you're doing, and you're reasons for it are clear, and you explain why to your child
And what you spank them for is very important too
Also Russell Peters on spanking huehuehue
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well.
Okay, let's say yes, physical punishment is a bad thing, but it dosen't mean that such punishment it the worst case scenario for a kid, but it is definitely the worst thing for parents who does the punishment. Personally for kid it might be worse to get his mouth cleaned with soap rather than get few slaps, can it be? Moreover, parents are using different punishments and not repeating one from time to time. Ofc it's better to have a perfect kid, who never get in trouble and never causes them, but what if u got a little devil? What if he doesnt care about TV or internet access and tourting pets frequently for example? What u gonna do?
It feels like Germans doesn't accept that situations might be different, and on a different situiation u have to pick a different solution, life is not a couple of algorithms with a sinlge right answer, it is more complicated.
Nothing personal about Germans, it's just u guys who says that never been spanked, that surprised me :D
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If your child is torturing pets you take him to a shrink immediately because they're horribly fucked up in the head.
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On September 20 2014 20:27 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Okay, let's say yes, physical punishment is a bad thing, but it dosen't mean that such punishment it the worst case scenario for a kid, but it is definitely the worst thing for parents who does the punishment. Personally for kid it might be worse to get his mouth cleaned with soap rather than get few slaps, can it be? Moreover, parents are using different punishments and not repeating one from time to time. Ofc it's better to have a perfect kid, who never get in trouble and never causes them, but what if u got a little devil? What if he doesnt care about TV or internet access and tourting pets frequently for example? What u gonna do? It feels like Germans doesn't accept that situations might be different, and on a different situiation u have to pick a different solution, life is not a couple of algorithms with a sinlge right answer, it is more complicated. Nothing personal about Germans, it's just u guys who says that never been spanked, that surprised me :D
If my kid ever start torturing pets and doesn't stop after a long talk about life and shit, he gotta go to a psychiatrist asap tbh.
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And based on this specific problem with ur kids, u guys, from different countries would have different solutions.
All the people are different, and all the methods are fine until u're not crossing the edge. And edges are very personal and social depended for every individual, which makes things ever more complicated.
P.S. If u got a kid that rising with a pet, statisticly speaking it will increase the kindness of ur child, eventually ur kid will learn how to live with pets in close contact and in most cases might grow up as a kind and stress-resistant person. I grew up with a pet, had a cats and dogs, and right now i've got a cat, and I love it as a part of my family.
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As far as pet torture there aren't different solutions. A child that tortures animals 100% has massive psychological problems, that is completely undeniable. He's not just being a little shit, he's deeply deeply troubled and needs a psychiatric evaluation and medication. It doesn't matter where you come from that kid's brain is broken.
That shit is the #1 massive red flag warning of being a psychopath.
Edit: I'd say if you have a child that is going around torturing animals and you spank that child you're only reinforcing their psychotic behavior. If you don't take that child to a psychiatrist that is a clear cut case of child abuse by not trying to get them the help they obviously need.
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I think there is a big difference between different parts of Europe. In Sweden, where I am from, it is very rare, and I was not spanked.
I am not a parent, but I am firmly against any kind of violence against kids.
1) It hurts, poor kids! Why would anyone do that?? :o
2) Kids copy what you do, not what you tell them to. They'll grow up to learn that violence is a method to have your way, and to show dominance.
3) I know many kids of friends that are perfectly behaving (apart from the usual kids stuff) despite not being beaten, spanked, switched or whatever you want to call using violence on kids. So yes, it can be done, and people in my social circles are doing it consistently, so it is not some freak exception. But no, I will not pretend that I know all the tricks myself as I am not a parent.
I could go into details in what should be done in certain situations, and I could theory-craft for ages, but as I am not a parent myself, it'd be like someone not having played SC teach someone about strategy. I'll just leave it at what I wrote in point 3: I've seen the pros do it consistently, so it is possible! 
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On September 20 2014 18:15 Crushinator wrote:
I have never found any need for punishment of any kind. This bullshit about having to condition children like pigeons is just ridiculous to me, children are hardwired to see you as an authority and take your suggestions seriously. They also respond very well to relationships based on reciprocation. You give me shit, i will not be inclined to do aything fun with you. They draw on the wall, I explain that drawing is better when you do it on a piece of paper. Bedtime can be difficult, but I don't think you can punish a child to sleep. I don't know how it is when a kid has some kind of condition obviously.
I honestly don't understand what a child could possibly do to deserve being phyisically assaulted, but people will rationalize anything if it makes them feel better about their relationship with their parents and/or kids.
that's just a fat lie and very often, the opposite is true; children are hardwired to disobey everything and everyone (at least that's the take of many psych-analysts).
my take - how can one be hardwired to a concept of reason, when one has yet to grow one?(but if you meant strength or domination instead of authority then maybe).
this issue is simple for me: you spank the extroverts and reason with the introverts; later, you bribe the extroverts and bargain with introverts.
everything is about ones personality type.
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Spanking should never be intended to cause harm, it should always be done lightly and without anger and never with your hand (your children should never fear your hands). The point and purpose of spanking is a reminder that choices have consequences but it should never be to cause pain.
I was spanked as a child. My parents would tell me to go to my room, then they would come in and explain what I did wrong and ask if I understood (usually I was crying at this point) they they had a piece of wood like the size of a ruler and would lightly spank my butt with it. Afterwards they would explain that they loved me and would hold me while I cried.
Spanking is a good tool but it needs to be kept in the correct perspective and should NEVER ever be done in anger or when you as a parent are not in control of yourself.
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On September 20 2014 20:27 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Okay, let's say yes, physical punishment is a bad thing, but it dosen't mean that such punishment it the worst case scenario for a kid, but it is definitely the worst thing for parents who does the punishment. Personally for kid it might be worse to get his mouth cleaned with soap rather than get few slaps, can it be? Moreover, parents are using different punishments and not repeating one from time to time. Ofc it's better to have a perfect kid, who never get in trouble and never causes them, but what if u got a little devil? What if he doesnt care about TV or internet access and tourting pets frequently for example? What u gonna do? It feels like Germans doesn't accept that situations might be different, and on a different situiation u have to pick a different solution, life is not a couple of algorithms with a sinlge right answer, it is more complicated. Nothing personal about Germans, it's just u guys who says that never been spanked, that surprised me :D
Washing a child's mouth with soap is indeed a more extreme form of physical punishment, what is your point? People who are against spanking are also against that. Study after study shows that corporal punishment is not a good thing.
Physically punishing a child is illegal in much of Europe, including Ukraine, so I don't even know why you would be surprised.
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On September 20 2014 20:27 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Okay, let's say yes, physical punishment is a bad thing, but it dosen't mean that such punishment it the worst case scenario for a kid, but it is definitely the worst thing for parents who does the punishment. Personally for kid it might be worse to get his mouth cleaned with soap rather than get few slaps, can it be? Moreover, parents are using different punishments and not repeating one from time to time. Ofc it's better to have a perfect kid, who never get in trouble and never causes them, but what if u got a little devil? What if he doesnt care about TV or internet access and tourting pets frequently for example? What u gonna do? It feels like Germans doesn't accept that situations might be different, and on a different situiation u have to pick a different solution, life is not a couple of algorithms with a sinlge right answer, it is more complicated. Nothing personal about Germans, it's just u guys who says that never been spanked, that surprised me :D
If he tortures other living creatures as a pastime, spanking is about as effective as a bandaid on a severed arm.
Also, punishing a kid by cleaning his mouth with soap is physical abuse by any definition. You are forcefully inserting harmful and painful chemicals and substances into the child's mouth, for the express purpose of imparting a lesson. It's worse than spanking because the physical pain and violation is worse, not because it's different.
Again, children are children, German or Ukrainian or Canadian or wherever from. There is no different principle of psychological well-being that only applies to children within a specific geographic area. You are right that the variables involved are complex, but the answer is probably rather simple: Beating children is very likely bad for them, and this is likely going to be substantiated by science within a few decades at most.
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On September 20 2014 21:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:
Spanking should never be intended to cause harm, it should always be done lightly and without anger and never with your hand (your children should never fear your hands). The point and purpose of spanking is a reminder that choices have consequences but it should never be to cause pain.
I was spanked as a child. My parents would tell me to go to my room, then they would come in and explain what I did wrong and ask if I understood (usually I was crying at this point) they they had a piece of wood like the size of a ruler and would lightly spank my butt with it. Afterwards they would explain that they loved me and would hold me while I cried.
I honestly think the scenario you described is incredibly abusive, just sick really. The thing about about children not fearing your hands is one of the weirdest things I've ever heard, and what is the point of spanking if it doesn't cause pain?
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On September 20 2014 20:35 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:27 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Okay, let's say yes, physical punishment is a bad thing, but it dosen't mean that such punishment it the worst case scenario for a kid, but it is definitely the worst thing for parents who does the punishment. Personally for kid it might be worse to get his mouth cleaned with soap rather than get few slaps, can it be? Moreover, parents are using different punishments and not repeating one from time to time. Ofc it's better to have a perfect kid, who never get in trouble and never causes them, but what if u got a little devil? What if he doesnt care about TV or internet access and tourting pets frequently for example? What u gonna do? It feels like Germans doesn't accept that situations might be different, and on a different situiation u have to pick a different solution, life is not a couple of algorithms with a sinlge right answer, it is more complicated. Nothing personal about Germans, it's just u guys who says that never been spanked, that surprised me :D If my kid ever start torturing pets and doesn't stop after a long talk about life and shit, he gotta go to a psychiatrist asap tbh.
If the kid is torturing pets and doesn't give a shit about punishment you've got yourself a little psychopath
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On September 20 2014 21:16 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 21:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:
Spanking should never be intended to cause harm, it should always be done lightly and without anger and never with your hand (your children should never fear your hands). The point and purpose of spanking is a reminder that choices have consequences but it should never be to cause pain.
I was spanked as a child. My parents would tell me to go to my room, then they would come in and explain what I did wrong and ask if I understood (usually I was crying at this point) they they had a piece of wood like the size of a ruler and would lightly spank my butt with it. Afterwards they would explain that they loved me and would hold me while I cried. I honestly think the scenario you described is incredibly abusive, just sick really. The thing about about children not fearing your hands is one of the weirdest things I've ever heard, and what is the point of spanking if it doesn't cause pain?
What? Of course you don't want your child to fear you, I specifically said hands because your not going to spank with your face are you?
Also I believe I said what the point is, to teach that things have consequence. And pray tell how is it abusive? On the contrary it is the exact opposite.
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On September 20 2014 21:40 YourGoodFriend wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 21:16 Crushinator wrote:On September 20 2014 21:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:
Spanking should never be intended to cause harm, it should always be done lightly and without anger and never with your hand (your children should never fear your hands). The point and purpose of spanking is a reminder that choices have consequences but it should never be to cause pain.
I was spanked as a child. My parents would tell me to go to my room, then they would come in and explain what I did wrong and ask if I understood (usually I was crying at this point) they they had a piece of wood like the size of a ruler and would lightly spank my butt with it. Afterwards they would explain that they loved me and would hold me while I cried. I honestly think the scenario you described is incredibly abusive, just sick really. The thing about about children not fearing your hands is one of the weirdest things I've ever heard, and what is the point of spanking if it doesn't cause pain? What? Of course you don't want your child to fear you, I specifically said hands because your not going to spank with your face are you? Also I believe I said what the point is, to teach that things have consequence. And pray tell how is it abusive? On the contrary it is the exact opposite.
I get that you don't want your child to fear you, that is why you shouldn't physically abuse them at all. Using your hand or an object isn't going to make a difference, no child fears their parents hands, they fear their parents abillity and willingness to hurt them. Which is why you cried when you knew your parents were going to hurt you.
So what do kids learn when you spank them without causing pain? Do something bad and the consequence is something you don't give a shit about? Obviously spanking IS done to cause pain, the pain and humiliation is the punishment.
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sort of related, just heard that singapore still got caning as their legal corporal punishment.
it's kinda mind blowing that we still have it in a modern society.
back on topic, I had a few "soft" spanking. there are far worse things that could happen.
At school for example, I had a teacher who forced me to stand up for hours and grabbed my tie to pull me up and it was pretty crazy.
that was primary school
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On September 20 2014 21:54 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 21:40 YourGoodFriend wrote:On September 20 2014 21:16 Crushinator wrote:On September 20 2014 21:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:
Spanking should never be intended to cause harm, it should always be done lightly and without anger and never with your hand (your children should never fear your hands). The point and purpose of spanking is a reminder that choices have consequences but it should never be to cause pain.
I was spanked as a child. My parents would tell me to go to my room, then they would come in and explain what I did wrong and ask if I understood (usually I was crying at this point) they they had a piece of wood like the size of a ruler and would lightly spank my butt with it. Afterwards they would explain that they loved me and would hold me while I cried. I honestly think the scenario you described is incredibly abusive, just sick really. The thing about about children not fearing your hands is one of the weirdest things I've ever heard, and what is the point of spanking if it doesn't cause pain? What? Of course you don't want your child to fear you, I specifically said hands because your not going to spank with your face are you? Also I believe I said what the point is, to teach that things have consequence. And pray tell how is it abusive? On the contrary it is the exact opposite. I get that you don't want your child to fear you, that is why you shouldn't physically abuse them at all. Using your hand or an object isn't going to make a difference, no child fears their parents hands, they fear their parents abillity and willingness to hurt them. Which is why you cried when you knew your parents were going to hurt you. So what do kids learn when you spank them without causing pain? Do something bad and the consequence is something you don't give a shit about? Obviously spanking IS done to cause pain, the pain and humiliation is the punishment.
I didn't cry because they were going to hurt me (Once again read above, they didn't hurt me) I cried because I knew I had disobeyed and you don't need physical harm to teach that disobedience is wrong you just need a constant punishment. Since this thread is about spanking I talked about how spanking should be done not how punishment for any and all wrong should be done.
What did kids learn with timeout? What do kids learn with grounding? What do kids learn with taking something away? They learn that their disobedience/wrong doing has a punishment involved and that punishment should always be constant (the same one for the same bad action). They should also have it explained to them what they did wrong so that they know what they did and so they can learn to not do it again.
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On September 20 2014 21:09 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:27 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Okay, let's say yes, physical punishment is a bad thing, but it dosen't mean that such punishment it the worst case scenario for a kid, but it is definitely the worst thing for parents who does the punishment. Personally for kid it might be worse to get his mouth cleaned with soap rather than get few slaps, can it be? Moreover, parents are using different punishments and not repeating one from time to time. Ofc it's better to have a perfect kid, who never get in trouble and never causes them, but what if u got a little devil? What if he doesnt care about TV or internet access and tourting pets frequently for example? What u gonna do? It feels like Germans doesn't accept that situations might be different, and on a different situiation u have to pick a different solution, life is not a couple of algorithms with a sinlge right answer, it is more complicated. Nothing personal about Germans, it's just u guys who says that never been spanked, that surprised me :D Washing a child's mouth with soap is indeed a more extreme form of physical punishment, what is your point? People who are against spanking are also against that. Study after study shows that corporal punishment is not a good thing. Physically punishing a child is illegal in much of Europe, including Ukraine, so I don't even know why you would be surprised.
let's just say that's still up to debate:
http://www.newsmax.com/US/spanking-studies-children-spock/2010/01/07/id/345669/
Those who were physically disciplined performed better than those who weren’t in a whole series of categories, including school grades, an optimistic outlook on life, the willingness to perform volunteer work, and the ambition to attend college, Gunnoe found. And they performed no worse than those who weren’t spanked in areas like early sexual activity, getting into fights, and becoming depressed. She found little difference between the sexes or races.
Another study published in the Akron Law Review last year examined criminal records and found that children raised where a legal ban on parental corporal punishment is in effect are much more likely to be involved in crime.
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I experienced it and I hated my dad so much for it I wanted to kill him when I got older, I don't think I ever really forgave him and our relationship completely deteriorated for most of my life because of it. However since I try to be objective, I agree with some people here that it really could be circumstantially appropriate, but regardless if it were my child I would never do such a thing because of how it mentally scarred me and might do the same to my child, especially if its sensitive.
I guess I try to forget about it, but every time I see an abusive parent grabbing their child and forcing them to walk somewhere I feel a special anger to that person  . I want to believe there is a better way than physical punishment, maybe because this is so emotionally charged for me I can't take a rational, evidence based position on it. There simply should be a better way
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My kids just laugh at me if I spank them... They are 4 and 2 respectively, obviously I have never spanked them hard enough... lol
I got the belt as a child, the wooden spoon, even a few cuffs up side the head. But I could never bring my self to hit my children hard enough to actually hurt them or even leave a mark.
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i'm from the philippines. i don't know if everyone here spanked their kids but i know my some of my friends got spanked like us. we're not the type to have ill feelings towards our parents because of it though(my bros and my friends). we laugh about it afterwards. can't say the same for the others. i don't remember seeing my cousins get spanked though and i never saw a girl get spanked.
my brothers and i got spanked when we were young when we did things we were told not to do and things we knew were bad and still did them anyway. in our case, we really deserved it and we didn't have ill feelings towards our parents. we sometimes even talk about it and count how many hits we got and who got more after crying. sometimes we try to make our dad laugh before he catches us when we know he's going to spank us. my little bro usually runs around the table and sometimes succeeds in making our dad laugh. it's not always fun and games though like one time when my older brother stole money.
i feel spanking us was a kinda good choice cause of our attitude. i think just only words won't work on us. we needed to know when we do something bad like when my grandfather spanked us(only once ever). he was a chill guy. he didn't care much when we were fighting using words at each other. but when we hit each other he became different, had the look and hit us enough that made us realize that hitting your brother is something that should never be done. he just said "you're brothers. don't ever hit each other again". now i'm older i know how important it is to have a great relationship with your family.
thinking about it now, if our dad didn't work abroad from when we were young, my older brother probably would be a different person than he is now. my mom just couldn't handle him alone and he got to do what he wanted. my older brother needed some beating. he is really BAD, i just don't want to share the exact things he did/does. we were actually honor students before my dad worked abroad.
we're all different of course. i know my older brother well enough that i know just words won't be enough. he needed a lot of beating in fact. even today. i want to beat the shit out of him sometimes but grandpa will get mad(rip).
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The laws are fucking absurd, kids have been hit, spanked, slapped, you name it, since the dawn of time, the laws are basically saying; "stop your timeless tradition".
We do have a problem, before you could hit the shit out of a kid to discipline him, he would have a bruise to remind that little shit what should or shouldn't be done, if he fucked up REALLY bad, papa Darwin took care of him before he could reproduce, thus ending the fail genes that made him behave; "hey I can close my eyes and try to run as fast as I can".
But back then kids could have just ran away from home, boys would learn a craft, girls would learn THE craft, problem solved, your offsprings are taken care of by society while being beneficiary members of the same, which worked out great for everyone.
Nowadays kids have nowhere to run to. That's the problem, every parent wants his kid to be a self-sufficient unit. To be able to take care of him/herself. However, the kid doesn't feel the need to leave if everything is served, so if you beat the shit out of him to enforce a parent-induced trauma, guess who's moving out into the real world. This isn't a 100% proven method, you may or may not create a serial murderer or just a guy with a really specific fetishes.
I mean if you don't to give me full control of this creature I made with my ballsacks, penis and a raging erection, then fuck you, I'm not making another taxpayer.
I don't always do things, but when I do I absolutely fucking hate it when my methods come under the microscope. Like if I'm legally obliged to take care of the kid until he's 18 + all of the restrictions.
In ancient times people had 7 children out of which 4 died and the other 3 eventually died but they got laid in the process, so it's legit. Nobody was sued for child abuse because that's how shit went down. You drink from a cow-shit infected pond and died? Ok, now my 6 brothers and sisters will know not to do that.
Bottom line; no progress without sacrifice.
TL;DR "No progress without sacrifice; you want to make an omelette, you gotta spank some kids to break the eggs for you"
User was temp banned for this post.
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^lol.
Because an eye for an eye was a timeless tradition, we should still apply this rules too right?
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me and my bro would laugh at our mom when she spanked us because it didnt hurt lmao.
I think spanking is okay but beating your child is not. A slap on the buttocks stings but it wont break you inside.
All a 4 year old toddler can learn from a beating is fear and intimidation...
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On September 20 2014 23:45 Faust852 wrote:
^lol.
Because an eye for an eye was a timeless tradition, we should still apply this rules too right?
Eye for an eye is legit, not legal, but legitimate.
You wouldn't try to stab someone trying to stab you?
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On September 21 2014 00:02 Hexo_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 23:45 Faust852 wrote:
^lol.
Because an eye for an eye was a timeless tradition, we should still apply this rules too right? Eye for an eye is legit, not legal, but legitimate. You wouldn't try to stab someone trying to stab you?
I dont think self defense=eye for an eye...
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I have never spanked my kids, and I intend to keep it that way.
In my opinion, children stick to rules if they understand why the rules are there. Spanking will not teach them that. It will teach them a very basic cause-effect relationship between very specific unwanted behavior and the resulting punishment, but if they don't understand why the rules are there, they will engage in very similar unwanted behavior without realizing that there will be a punishment for that as well. I feel that spanking causes a rule-by-force role for the parent, and that rewards doing stuff behind the parents' back. The last thing I'd want is a kid that behaves *when his parents are around*.
On September 20 2014 15:47 Passion wrote:
Have fun endlessly debating with your kids.
I believe in debating instead of punishment. In fact, me and my son have fun debating rules occasionally 
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It's interesting to see that Europe is the only region with more "no" votes. I didn't expect so much spanking in North America, thought our regions would have similar results because of cultural similarities.
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On September 21 2014 00:04 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 00:02 Hexo_ wrote:On September 20 2014 23:45 Faust852 wrote:
^lol.
Because an eye for an eye was a timeless tradition, we should still apply this rules too right? Eye for an eye is legit, not legal, but legitimate. You wouldn't try to stab someone trying to stab you? I dont think self defense=eye for an eye...
Don't get all smartass on me... The definition is (basically): A counteraction that is equal to an action.
Applies to everything.
I stab you, you stab me
I fuck your wife, you fuck my wife
I smear shit and piss all over your face, you smear shit and piss all over my face.
Ta-dah
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Yeah I got spanked.
Get the fuck over it
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Canada11350 Posts
On September 20 2014 21:54 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 21:40 YourGoodFriend wrote:On September 20 2014 21:16 Crushinator wrote:On September 20 2014 21:04 YourGoodFriend wrote:
Spanking should never be intended to cause harm, it should always be done lightly and without anger and never with your hand (your children should never fear your hands). The point and purpose of spanking is a reminder that choices have consequences but it should never be to cause pain.
I was spanked as a child. My parents would tell me to go to my room, then they would come in and explain what I did wrong and ask if I understood (usually I was crying at this point) they they had a piece of wood like the size of a ruler and would lightly spank my butt with it. Afterwards they would explain that they loved me and would hold me while I cried. I honestly think the scenario you described is incredibly abusive, just sick really. The thing about about children not fearing your hands is one of the weirdest things I've ever heard, and what is the point of spanking if it doesn't cause pain? What? Of course you don't want your child to fear you, I specifically said hands because your not going to spank with your face are you? Also I believe I said what the point is, to teach that things have consequence. And pray tell how is it abusive? On the contrary it is the exact opposite. I get that you don't want your child to fear you, that is why you shouldn't physically abuse them at all. Using your hand or an object isn't going to make a difference, no child fears their parents hands, they fear their parents abillity and willingness to hurt them. Which is why you cried when you knew your parents were going to hurt you. So what do kids learn when you spank them without causing pain? Do something bad and the consequence is something you don't give a shit about? Obviously spanking IS done to cause pain, the pain and humiliation is the punishment.
Well there is pain and there is pain. The OP describes drawing blood and that is waaaaaaay over the line. A proper spanking stings, maybe reddens, but is not leaving a mark. To me the synonym is 'paddling.' If the synonym is 'beating,' you're doing it wrong. The advantage of proper spanking (rarely used, mind you) is that it is short and sharp. Rather than dragging out the corrective action with groundings and bannings of this or that fun thing. And of course talking and explanations- any form of corrective action ought to explain the reason for it. The dividing line between pro and anti spanking is not also the division between parents willing to talk with their children and cavemen incapable of speech, and beat their children as a result. (Although unfortunately, there are many abusive parents who do latch onto 'spare the rod' and pro-spanking as licence to beat their children.)
Furthermore, spanking (I believe) cannot be effective without a healthy relationship as a foundation. My dad's priorities were always wife, then children, then work. And we knew that well. In that context, you do not live in fear or resentment. But you do not lip mom when dad is not home...
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I have never been spanked and i would never ever spank i child.
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My dad got the vacuum cord or the belt from his dad. I merely got a bare hand only a few times I can remember. It was honestly the anticipation that was the worst. I also learned not to laugh when your mom tries it, because then she will call your dad, and you'll feel like an idiot for making that happen.
I was unsure what to think when I read about Adrian Peterson. The articles simply didn't mention that his boy bled, they said some vague things about the boy being injured. I'm still torn on whether he deserves the criminal charges. In general, it feels way too easy for nosy neighbors and other people sticking their noses where they don't belong to call social services and screw up a family. I actually had a friend in high school whose baby sibling was taken from the family for a few months because it fell off the couch.
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I was spanked on a very, very rare occasion. It was kind of that "ultimate" punishment, it never really hurt very much but it was always usually that final step kind of thing.
I'm not sure how necessary it is, though I usually think along the lines of "theres a time and place for everything..."
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On September 20 2014 23:31 Hexo_ wrote:
The laws are fucking absurd, kids have been hit, spanked, slapped, you name it, since the dawn of time, the laws are basically saying; "stop your timeless tradition".
We do have a problem, before you could hit the shit out of a kid to discipline him, he would have a bruise to remind that little shit what should or shouldn't be done, if he fucked up REALLY bad, papa Darwin took care of him before he could reproduce, thus ending the fail genes that made him behave; "hey I can close my eyes and try to run as fast as I can".
But back then kids could have just ran away from home, boys would learn a craft, girls would learn THE craft, problem solved, your offsprings are taken care of by society while being beneficiary members of the same, which worked out great for everyone.
Nowadays kids have nowhere to run to. That's the problem, every parent wants his kid to be a self-sufficient unit. To be able to take care of him/herself. However, the kid doesn't feel the need to leave if everything is served, so if you beat the shit out of him to enforce a parent-induced trauma, guess who's moving out into the real world. This isn't a 100% proven method, you may or may not create a serial murderer or just a guy with a really specific fetishes.
I mean if you don't to give me full control of this creature I made with my ballsacks, penis and a raging erection, then fuck you, I'm not making another taxpayer.
I don't always do things, but when I do I absolutely fucking hate it when my methods come under the microscope. Like if I'm legally obliged to take care of the kid until he's 18 + all of the restrictions.
In ancient times people had 7 children out of which 4 died and the other 3 eventually died but they got laid in the process, so it's legit. Nobody was sued for child abuse because that's how shit went down. You drink from a cow-shit infected pond and died? Ok, now my 6 brothers and sisters will know not to do that.
Bottom line; no progress without sacrifice.
TL;DR "No progress without sacrifice; you want to make an omelette, you gotta spank some kids to break the eggs for you"
we are the smartest, most civilized, less violent, most sophisticated generation of men that ever walked on earth. every generation before us was complete and utter shit compared to us. that includes our grand parents, grand grand parents and everyone before them and in due time, even our parents will be nothing more than vile barbarians from a time long gone. if something is done for hundreds of years, its very likely stupid and flat out bad.
that works as a general compass in life too. if you are about to do / say something your grand parents would have done too, dont do it, because it is most likely harmful to the cause.
that being said:
as someone mentioned obedience, i wonder how many people who aprove spanking think that obedience is a valuable lesson and positive value for children? because i think there might be another rather large cultural gap here. in germany (and i think in other west european countries as well) obedience is seen as something bad. its seen as something autocratic and should not be taught at all. and when obedience is out of the picture, its very hard to find a good reasoning for punishment.
this thread got me thinking and i can not remember any instance where i was punished. i mean, i didnt do like completely stupid shit but i was still a normal child.
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On September 20 2014 23:31 Hexo_ wrote:
The laws are fucking absurd, kids have been hit, spanked, slapped, you name it, since the dawn of time, the laws are basically saying; "stop your timeless tradition".
We do have a problem, before you could hit the shit out of a kid to discipline him, he would have a bruise to remind that little shit what should or shouldn't be done, if he fucked up REALLY bad, papa Darwin took care of him before he could reproduce, thus ending the fail genes that made him behave; "hey I can close my eyes and try to run as fast as I can".
But back then kids could have just ran away from home, boys would learn a craft, girls would learn THE craft, problem solved, your offsprings are taken care of by society while being beneficiary members of the same, which worked out great for everyone.
Nowadays kids have nowhere to run to. That's the problem, every parent wants his kid to be a self-sufficient unit. To be able to take care of him/herself. However, the kid doesn't feel the need to leave if everything is served, so if you beat the shit out of him to enforce a parent-induced trauma, guess who's moving out into the real world. This isn't a 100% proven method, you may or may not create a serial murderer or just a guy with a really specific fetishes.
I mean if you don't to give me full control of this creature I made with my ballsacks, penis and a raging erection, then fuck you, I'm not making another taxpayer.
I don't always do things, but when I do I absolutely fucking hate it when my methods come under the microscope. Like if I'm legally obliged to take care of the kid until he's 18 + all of the restrictions.
In ancient times people had 7 children out of which 4 died and the other 3 eventually died but they got laid in the process, so it's legit. Nobody was sued for child abuse because that's how shit went down. You drink from a cow-shit infected pond and died? Ok, now my 6 brothers and sisters will know not to do that.
Bottom line; no progress without sacrifice.
TL;DR "No progress without sacrifice; you want to make an omelette, you gotta spank some kids to break the eggs for you"
User was temp banned for this post.
Can't tell if serious or not, but I had a real blast reading thru.
Me and my girlfriend (just askd) never got spanked as childs.
Oh and since I was never that stupid to get caught; my brother did real bad shit and never got spanked.
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TLADT24920 Posts
hmm this is a hard one for me. I don't remember if I was spanked or not, maybe once or twice at best? Not even sure if that's right either lol so it might be none. If I was spanked though, it was probably really light just to get the point across so it was never really painful or anything.
I do recall once, just once having to eat some really hot spice as punishment for something I did. Don't recall what I did though but was a one time thing. It set me straight if I needed it lol though I was a goody two shoes as a kid since I listened but was just really energetic
I think a little spanking (read: 1-2 quick slap on the butt for example) is fine so long as its reserved for bad situation, to teach the child. If you go to the point where the child is bleeding like in that article in the OP, that's way too extreme T.T The idea of spanking or any form of punishment is to teach that child that what they did is wrong so a little spanking is fine imo. No spoons or belts etc... those are just too painful and excessive imo.
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On September 21 2014 00:10 Hexo_ wrote:
I stab you, you stab me
I fuck your wife, you fuck my wife
I smear shit and piss all over your face, you smear shit and piss all over my face.
Ta-dah
it's a date.
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haha that vote, europe vs rest of the world :D
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Only once. I was being a little shit and telling my dad that I wasn't gonna put my toys away when I was like 3. I don't even remember it, it's just been told to me.
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I was spanked a few times. The only time I remember is when I was trying to fall asleep, and my overactive imagination conjured up some kind of army (a very tiny one) or some shit crawling over my bed sheets. So my father tells me to stop crying and go to sleep, but I thought I was losing my fucking mind, because holy shit was that Stonewall Jackson riding on horseback across my pillow? So he came upstairs and spanked me. Cause and effect I guess.
I'm so glad my childhood is long gone.
Edit: As per the discussion, I think that spanking is--like anything--a tool, and completely circumstantial. I don't judge Adrian Peterson or anyone else for beating their kids: it's their kid. None of my business. If / when I have kids, I'm not going to spank them unless they severely shit the bed (so to speak), and my wife agrees.
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because an open hand slap on the ass is totally similar to taking a whip-like branch and beating your kid so hard with it that it leaves open wounds on his thighs, ass, and GENITALS a week later.
Anyone even starting to defend what Adrian Peterson did is a fundamentally broken human being. Spanking isn't even in the same realm as that.
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On September 21 2014 02:05 jeeeeohn wrote:
I was spanked a few times. The only time I remember is when I was trying to fall asleep, and my overactive imagination conjured up some kind of army (a very tiny one) or some shit crawling over my bed sheets. So my father tells me to stop crying and go to sleep, but I thought I was losing my fucking mind, because holy shit was that Stonewall Jackson riding on horseback across my pillow? So he came upstairs and spanked me. Cause and effect I guess.
I'm so glad my childhood is long gone.
Edit: As per the discussion, I think that spanking is--like anything--a tool, and completely circumstantial. I don't judge Adrian Peterson or anyone else for beating their kids: it's their kid. None of my business. If / when I have kids, I'm not going to spank them unless they severely shit the bed (so to speak), and my wife agrees.
I would feel the need to do something if I became aware that a child is being abused...
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The polls surprise me a lot. I never thought that beating your child is that common in america and the difference to europe is that huge. I was never beaten by my parents and I will call the police on anyone who does. I am glad its a crime in germany.
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I'm pretty sure most us would not have considered ourselves being "beaten" by our parents
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I live in the US but I was born in Sweden and both my parents are from foreign countries, and I've never been spanked or anything even close to it.
You should be friends with your parents. They shouldn't be these scary authority figures who you follow out of fear or forced respect. My parents have always been logical and friendly with me, and talked to me as equals. But I understand that some kids might just be terrible people, and you can't use this approach because they won't reciprocate the sentiment.
In general though, I don't think any sort of corporal punishment is a good thing, even if it's just "gentle spanking".
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On September 21 2014 02:35 N1mrod wrote:
The polls surprise me a lot. I never thought that beating your child is that common in america and the difference to europe is that huge. I was never beaten by my parents and I will call the police on anyone who does. I am glad its a crime in germany.
I don't think that people would consider a spanking, being beaten.
i personally have gotten the wooden spoon before, and i don't think it really left any negative effects other than the fact that I wouldnt consider doing what I had done to receive the punishment ever again lol
however, if you beat the child until he's bruised and has welts, that's where a line is being crossed
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I got spanked but not often. I think less then 10 times total and just a slap with the hand on the ass. Just once I had a really bad fight with my father and we were wrestling on the ground and I got a slap to the face ;D
I think it was okay and I deserved it but I would definitely call the cops if the parents spank the kid so hard that it's bleeding and I also think something in your parenting style is wrong if spanking is a regular thing.
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The problem is not beating your child vs not. The problem is that these bullshit studies that news sources all over are quoting as "scientific evidence that corporal punishment heads children towards violent lives" are being allowed to be used without ever explaining how the conclusion was reached.
If you actually look at the studies Huffpost, NYTimes, etc all are quoting and posting, you'll find that almost 100% of them were funded by DRUG FIRMS or large corporations in the medical or psychological industries with vested interests in the outcomes that could mean a whole new market opening up for them to sell drugs to.
You also will find that while they pick 1400-1600 subjects in some of the larger studies, they only picked 20 people as a "control". Such a large disparity only skews the results by putting a great deal more people on one side than the other. It also must be noted that the 1400-1600 that were "beaten as children" had to meet the following criteria:
-Beaten for at least 3 sustained years or longer during childhood
-All incidents were public or became public in the duration of the corporal punishment
-All incidents involved medium to large objects.
That last one there? "medium to large" objects is further-explained to be full-sized chairs, baseball bats and kitchen/household appliances! WHAT THE HELL!? How do these people deem it unnecessary to clarify that their study was not a child who acted out and ignored verbal warnings and was therefore delivered a private in-home spanking that lasts only 5-10 strikes (most don't even do more than 2-3) but 100% public beatings with loud public verbal insults and finally almost all the time involving large objects instead of hands! You can't even debate how ridiculous this massive omission of data is! Scientifically, those facts alone would discredit these studies entirely.
So in other words, there are no definitive non-biased non-corporate-funded correctly-executed truly "scientific" studies done on any of this! If the anti-spanking side had the decency to not lie about this so openly on a massive scale, I might entertain the idea. However when I find one side is being honest but looks bad publicly because the other is wildly blown out of proportion by the mass media and lies, I'm going to go with my own experiences instead of liars.
The dividing line must be made so that they understand that people who were spanked and yelled at for discipline in their homes as children are in a completely different category and situation than those who are publicly humiliated and beaten with large objects until welts and a good amount of blood is drawn. Stop lumping "beatings" in the same category. Any sensible human would know better unless they're just stupid as fuck.
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Spanked with hands, belts, and sticks, slapped around, screamed at and belittled constantly.
Needless to say I haven't spoken to my mother in quite a long time.
If I have children I won't be using corporal punishment at all.
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If you can raise a child without laying your hand on them, why shouldn't you? Or is this just about the easiest and most effective way of disciplining someone?
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Yes I was spanked as a child, and I thank God my parents did...we were such bad kids , and we definitely needed it. My mom would usually spank us with a wooden spoon or a little switch. When we got to a certain age (I think past 12 or something), my parents stopped the spanking, and replaced it with grounding (they would either ban us from playing the computer, or from going outside), because we didn't care that much about being spanked anymore.
Also, to all the people who think that spanking = "beating your children"...get a life and wake up, LOL. This is one of the stupidest straw-man arguments I've ever heard. As others have already said, there's a difference between slapping your kid on the backside with a spoon/open hand a few times, and beating them with a bat/whip/chair to the point that they're cut and bleeding. The first one is called discipline, the second one is called over-the-top violence/brutality. If you can't differentiate between these, you don't belong on the Internet, much less in this thread.
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i've been slapped by my teacher, batted by my coach, beaten countless times with coat hangers from my parents.
i fought back when my sister tried with a broom, then i got spanked x2.
(i was very troublesome kid)
everyone in class had their palms hit with a ruler for those that didnt do homework, the classroom president was hit more to take responsibility.
i've never been hit with a fist while growing up from grown ups. fist is another matter.
its definitely a cultural thing, like, i had no idea you can train dogs without hitting them until i had a white roommate raising a puppy. was quiet a culture shock when i compared it to methods my mother used. been scolding my mother ever since.
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On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well.
Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion?
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On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion?
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
Summary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high.
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Generally I dont think spanking is a good thing, most of the time it actually shows loss of control by the parent and is a sign of weakness.
But it is also not as bad as some people make it out to be. I was spanked as a child. But I also remember a few times I was asked if I wanted a spanking or having to clean up the kitchen as punishment for some shit I did. I chose the spanking. So really it can not have been that bad, it was a punishment like any other.
Also parents can abuse their children without ever using physical violence. Just think of Franz Kafka who was traumatized by the verbal abuse he received from his father, even though he was never touched by him.
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On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high.
This study is behavioral, which I think is much more likely to be informative about the effects of corporal punishment. I can't think of any way looking at brain anatomy or brain chemistry would be meaningful.
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On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion?
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotions
http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brain
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/
There's tonnes more, but that is a passable start. I'll try to find some more extensive material for tomorrow.
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I was spanked with the belt on bare ass, up until the age where I tackled my father and punched him in the face a few times. I don't spank my kids and find it less effective than other means of discipline. To each their own though.
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On September 21 2014 03:33 skypig wrote:Yes I was spanked as a child, and I thank God my parents did...we were such bad kids , and we definitely needed it. My mom would usually spank us with a wooden spoon or a little switch. When we got to a certain age (I think past 12 or something), my parents stopped the spanking, and replaced it with grounding (they would either ban us from playing the computer, or from going outside), because we didn't care that much about being spanked anymore. Also, to all the people who think that spanking = "beating your children"... get a life and wake up, LOL. This is one of the stupidest straw-man arguments I've ever heard. As others have already said, there's a difference between slapping your kid on the backside with a spoon/open hand a few times, and beating them with a bat/whip/chair to the point that they're cut and bleeding. The first one is called discipline, the second one is called over-the-top violence/brutality. If you can't differentiate between these, you don't belong on the Internet, much less in this thread.
That's why it's banned in some countries in Europe, because we don't have a life, right? Lol.
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Canada11350 Posts
@Squat.
Your first link is childhood abuse- emotional and sexual. I have no doubt abuse is extremely damaging to a child's development, but I do not think anyone is defending emotional and sexual abuse (or physical abuse for that matter).
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The OP really needs one more poll:
If you were spanked, do you, looking back, think it was a good or bad thing, overall?
I was spanked many times as a kid and am glad I was, but I never received anything like the little boy in question. I've only heard small sound bites, but it sounded like the parent went way overboard.
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On September 21 2014 04:00 Falling wrote:
@Squat.
Your first link is childhood abuse- emotional and sexual. I have no doubt abuse is extremely damaging to a child's development, but I do not think anyone is defending emotional and sexual abuse (or physical abuse for that matter).
Abuse was categorized as a suitcase term for a variety of damaging behaviours, corporal punishment included. The more pertinent part is that repeated emotional trauma during childhood, regardless of source, causes measurable changes in the brain. We know this.
Regardless, we can completely ignore it and the point still stands. There are plenty of resources out there for the curious. A simple google search and an hour of research will dispel most doubts, I'd wager.
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On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high.
The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotions
Opinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning.
http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119
Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brain
This bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdf
Here's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/
I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money.
You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model.
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On September 21 2014 03:12 sCCrooked wrote:
The problem is not beating your child vs not. The problem is that these bullshit studies that news sources all over are quoting as "scientific evidence that corporal punishment heads children towards violent lives" are being allowed to be used without ever explaining how the conclusion was reached.
If you actually look at the studies Huffpost, NYTimes, etc all are quoting and posting, you'll find that almost 100% of them were funded by DRUG FIRMS or large corporations in the medical or psychological industries with vested interests in the outcomes that could mean a whole new market opening up for them to sell drugs to.
You also will find that while they pick 1400-1600 subjects in some of the larger studies, they only picked 20 people as a "control". Such a large disparity only skews the results by putting a great deal more people on one side than the other. It also must be noted that the 1400-1600 that were "beaten as children" had to meet the following criteria:
-Beaten for at least 3 sustained years or longer during childhood
-All incidents were public or became public in the duration of the corporal punishment
-All incidents involved medium to large objects.
That last one there? "medium to large" objects is further-explained to be full-sized chairs, baseball bats and kitchen/household appliances! WHAT THE HELL!? How do these people deem it unnecessary to clarify that their study was not a child who acted out and ignored verbal warnings and was therefore delivered a private in-home spanking that lasts only 5-10 strikes (most don't even do more than 2-3) but 100% public beatings with loud public verbal insults and finally almost all the time involving large objects instead of hands! You can't even debate how ridiculous this massive omission of data is! Scientifically, those facts alone would discredit these studies entirely.
So in other words, there are no definitive non-biased non-corporate-funded correctly-executed truly "scientific" studies done on any of this! If the anti-spanking side had the decency to not lie about this so openly on a massive scale, I might entertain the idea. However when I find one side is being honest but looks bad publicly because the other is wildly blown out of proportion by the mass media and lies, I'm going to go with my own experiences instead of liars.
The dividing line must be made so that they understand that people who were spanked and yelled at for discipline in their homes as children are in a completely different category and situation than those who are publicly humiliated and beaten with large objects until welts and a good amount of blood is drawn. Stop lumping "beatings" in the same category. Any sensible human would know better unless they're just stupid as fuck.
I was trying to figure out how the German & Nordic groups handled actual, strong-willed children, as physical punishment is always a necessity to with them. Then I remembered they don't have a problem drugging a child up to the nines, on top of a culture that's inwardly focused.
Though the USA isn't immune to that problem either. Though that's almost wholly the result of our schools viewing a child that can't sit for 6+ hours a day as defective. (The reason we use the most anti-depressants is actually a separate issue)
Still, as I mentioned on the first page, this is a 30/30/40 issue. 30% of children are going to need heavy physical correction; 30% will respond a lot better to verbal correction; 40% doesn't seem to swing either way, being more about consistency. It should also be point out that the time period when physical correction is needed is most needed is age 3 & below. So I imagine some posters here, who are an eldest sibling, simply don't remember the few times they were.
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On September 21 2014 04:16 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Though the USA isn't immune to that problem either. Though that's almost wholly the result of our schools viewing a child that can't sit for 6+ hours a day as defective. (The reason we use the most anti-depressants is actually a separate issue)
Happy to see I'm not the only one that finds this troubling.
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On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model.
Yes, if you dismiss everything that seems to contradict you on frivolous grounds, there is indeed no evidence.
No one is claiming that we know, but all the data that is materialising points one way.
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It is the easiest method for quick behavior correction but it's by far the worst method for setting long term behavior correction, behavior correction that sticks. Furthermore it can over time completely remove the option for other forms of behavior correction, as the problem with any fear based correction when fear is not used the child is unresponsive as they only look for the fear based punishment. In other words it's what a lazy parent does to shut a kid up not to help a kid grow as a person.
There is over 60 years of psychology to back this up. New studies are published every year confirming it anyone with access one of the many psych study databases could find them and read them. Is it better than no behavior correction? Yes, but it's pretty shit in terms of effectiveness of most parents expectations.
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On September 21 2014 04:25 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model. Yes, if you dismiss everything that seems to contradict you on frivolous grounds, there is indeed no evidence. No one is claiming that we know, but all the data that is materialising points one way.
Don't you know that his own personal experiences is enough to nullify all of these research because they doesn't fit with his view? heh
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My dad used a belt. Although I don't remember ever being beat so hard that I bled, that definitely seems excessive.
It's definitely a culture thing, I don't know a single person who was raised by Hispanic parents like I was that wasn't physically disciplined as a kid.
More often than not though, spanking was a last resort. First resort was the threat of spanking and that was usually enough to get me back in line as a kid since I knew the threats weren't empty.
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On September 21 2014 04:25 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model. Yes, if you dismiss everything that seems to contradict you on frivolous grounds, there is indeed no evidence. No one is claiming that we know, but all the data that is materialising points one way.
No, what you stated is completely irrelevant and does not apply in any way to how I methodically researched every piece you tried to use and completely gutted your argument by simply pointing out your studies are completely biased and do not represent any demographic well. I don't even have to bring you personally into this at all, I merely have to quote numbers from your own sources to prove you didn't even bother reading past the opinion article pieces. There is no unbiased or well-represented data regarding this issue.
Faust852 wrote:
Don't you know that his own personal experiences is enough to nullify all of these research because they doesn't fit with his view? heh
Another ignorant fool spouting made-up irrelevant babble because his argument got gutted and he can't come up with anything other than a personal remark. Don't be dumb and maybe you wouldn't have to make yourself look more the fool unbeknownst to you.
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On September 21 2014 04:34 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 04:25 Squat wrote:On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model. Yes, if you dismiss everything that seems to contradict you on frivolous grounds, there is indeed no evidence. No one is claiming that we know, but all the data that is materialising points one way. No, what you stated is completely irrelevant and does not apply in any way to how I methodically researched every piece you tried to use and completely gutted your argument by simply pointing out your studies are completely biased and do not represent any demographic well. I don't even have to bring you personally into this at all, I merely have to quote numbers from your own sources to prove you didn't even bother reading past the opinion article pieces. Show nested quote +Faust852 wrote:
Don't you know that his own personal experiences is enough to nullify all of these research because they doesn't fit with his view? heh Another ignorant fool spouting made-up irrelevant babble because his argument got gutted and he can't come up with anything other than a personal remark. Don't be dumb and maybe you wouldn't have to make yourself look more the fool unbeknownst to you.
Instead of insulting me, you could try to provide counter argument, don't you think ? But I guess ad hominem are easier to use.
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No, what you stated is completely irrelevant and does not apply in any way to how I methodically researched every piece you tried to use and completely gutted your argument by simply pointing out your studies are completely biased and do not represent any demographic well. I don't even have to bring you personally into this at all, I merely have to quote numbers from your own sources to prove you didn't even bother reading past the opinion article pieces.
Simply not true. Opinion pieces can be perfectly solid sources of information as long as they use proper sourcing. Your assertion that every survey is biased and skewed is a smoke screen.
Tell you what, let's meet up here in ten years and see where science has taken us on this subject.
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Canada11350 Posts
On September 21 2014 04:09 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 04:00 Falling wrote:
@Squat.
Your first link is childhood abuse- emotional and sexual. I have no doubt abuse is extremely damaging to a child's development, but I do not think anyone is defending emotional and sexual abuse (or physical abuse for that matter). Abuse was categorized as a suitcase term for a variety of damaging behaviours, corporal punishment included. Regardless, we can completely ignore it and the point still stands. There are plenty of resources out there for the curious. A simple google search and an hour of research will dispel most doubts, I'd wager.
That may be so, but Nyxisto's link:
But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.
"The act of corporal punishment itself is different across parents - parents vary in how frequently they use it, how forcefully they administer it, how emotionally aroused they are when they do it, and whether they combine it with other techniques. Each of these qualities of corporal punishment can determine which child-mediated processes are activated, and, in turn, which outcomes may be realized," Gershoff concludes.
The meta-analysis also demonstrates that the frequency and severity of the corporal punishment matters. The more often or more harshly a child was hit, the more likely they are to be aggressive or to have mental health problems.
To me, looks like execution is everything- how it is implemented. Situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship... I submit that is the key factor. And the second paragraph is exactly what turns mild discipline into harsh discipline/abuse, all dependent on how it is administered. Is it punishment or abuse- it depends what the parent is doing. But that's true of any discipline. Explanation or emotional abuse with a torrent of insults. Grounding for a little while, or locking in the basement. Whether something is abusive or discipline stands and falls on the frequency and the forcefulness of it (and then combined with the relationship of the parent outside of disciplining.)
Now, I understand her ultimate conclusion is we can't be sure how parents will administer, and so as we have found negative effects of abusive administration, and haven't found definite positive evidence for a milder form corporate discipline, we're not going to recommend. I suspect its efficacy is highly dependent on relationship and infrequency (though consistency), and mild forcefulness. But how do you strain out the chaff to test for a very specific form of mild corporate punishment (used in conjunction with other methods) rather than testing for all cases of physical contact? If their studies are including parents that beat their children under big tent "Corporal Punishment," then I have no doubt that they are going to find all sort of problems.
But it strikes me that the entire thing is rather difficult to ascertain if they are so reliant on self-reporting. A parent could very well use the right language, but in action actually use harsh discipline. Truman Show cameras? Even advocates for spanking worry that their words could be twisted to self-justify an abuser. I can see why the APA would likely need overwhelming evidence to even hesitantly recommend mild spanking. Abuse is really, really terrible and no-one wants to give those people ammunition.
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You people really live in your own little fantasy world, don't you? There's a lot of kids these days acting more like Cartman from South Park and less like "The Brady Bunch" ironically right around when this movement of anti-spanking began to spread.
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On September 21 2014 04:48 sCCrooked wrote:You people really live in your own little fantasy world, don't you? There's a lot of kids these days acting more like Cartman from South Park and less like "The Brady Bunch" ironically right around when this movement of anti-spanking began to spread.
Nah, they always existed, but now there is internet.
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On September 21 2014 04:48 sCCrooked wrote:You people really live in your own little fantasy world, don't you? There's a lot of kids these days acting more like Cartman from South Park and less like "The Brady Bunch" ironically right around when this movement of anti-spanking began to spread.
nope
more people finish school, less violence on a day to day level (this includes fights between children and young adults), less crime and we are basically better off than we ever were. we are just so perfect in every way that the few idiots with issues stand out more.
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On September 21 2014 04:13 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 03:47 Nyxisto wrote:On September 21 2014 03:43 nbaker wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Can you offer an example of what kind of neuroscience observation could possibly lead to this conclusion? http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspxSummary: Corporal punishment definitely doesn't do any good, the chance that it's harmful is very high. The man asks for a real study and you give him some unfounded article that doesn't even link its source study. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/feb/13/childhood-abuse-growth-brain-emotionsOpinion article. Irrelevant to those educated in scientific reasoning. http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Debunking-corporal-punishment-myth-1-Spanking-children-for-discipline-does-no-harm-20131119Another opinion article but I'll do more research into those actual studies. I have a feeling they're no better than the ones I was able to find easily. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brainThis bullshit opinion piece quotes a study in which most of the demographics are incredibly skewed. Did you even read the source? 8000+ people in the no-abuse category being tested against 600 "spanked" people. You really don't see the problem with disparity ratio of 15:1 in the subjects? This study is bunk. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/06/27/peds.2011-2947.full.pdfHere's the bunk study with 600 no-punishment asians and 12 punished asians. That will surely provide unskewed results! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/I already mentioned this study in the previous post of mine. It also is incredibly skewed, funded by drug companies trying to manipulate public opinion so they can make money. You guys have to check your sources better. There's still that one from news24 I have to look more into because it quotes a lot of reference material without actually providing the material, but so far 100% of the "proof" has fit my previously-stated model.
It's like you've never taken a statistics class despite all your claims to be a 'scientific' person who is familiar with 'scientific reasoning' and dismisses fluff 'opinion.' You can get a statistically significant result with a sample size of 600. Would you argue that a sample size of 1 million vs a sample size of 1 billion would somehow invalidate a statistical difference of multiple percentage points? Don't be stupid.
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People who spank children to teach them "respect" or to "punish" are doing so cus they are bad at parental communication (I was gonna say bad parents cus that's my honest opinion). It teaches them some flawed kind of lesson that teaches you that you should be respectful to people or else you will be punished, rather than teaching people to be good for the sake of being good.
The only reason you'd use violence is because you can't show authority without it.
I've never been spanked, and everyone I know who has been spanked, while being good people, generally are more insecure with issues of selfesteem and such (this might have something to do with spanking being very uncommon among their peers).
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Canada11350 Posts
It teaches them some flawed kind of lesson that teaches you that you should be respectful to people or else you will be punished, rather than teaching people to be good for the sake of being good.
Isn't that true of most forms of discipline such as grounding? If you don't talk respectfully, you will be punished by sitting in your room rather than talking respectfully for its own sake? Or do you advocate only talking about the benefits of obedience when a child is willfully disobeying while getting sassy about it?
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If it's good enough for kids why isn't it good enough for adults. For everyone who advocates spanking do you also advocate caning for criminals and public offenders?
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And you didn't bother to read the next line. We over medicate children that can't sit still here. That leads to most of the problem with that. Which I mentioned on the next line...
As for "strong willed" children, feel free to read up on the subject. It's interesting.
Also, I said "physical punishment". I never said spanking directly. It's a good exercise for everyone here to ask your parents how much actual correction was required from the time period you *do not* remember. You'll likely be surprised. Everything from removing toys, to removing you from an area to picking you put and placing you somewhere else. This is still direct, physical punishment.
There's a scale to punishment; and there's also a scale to how much actual damage a child can do/can get into. If you put a child in a complete bubble, they do need less correction because there is less for them to harm themselves on. Which might be the actual driving difference. Being wrapped in historically odd safety has interesting effects on a society.
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i believe timeout is more effective in some cases. i feared losing my gameboy for a week more than i did being spanked. adrian peterson's child is probably spoiled as all hell though so spanking is probably the only good option he had.
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On September 21 2014 06:30 Taf the Ghost wrote:And you didn't bother to read the next line. We over medicate children that can't sit still here. That leads to most of the problem with that. Which I mentioned on the next line... As for "strong willed" children, feel free to read up on the subject. It's interesting. Also, I said "physical punishment". I never said spanking directly. It's a good exercise for everyone here to ask your parents how much actual correction was required from the time period you *do not* remember. You'll likely be surprised. Everything from removing toys, to removing you from an area to picking you put and placing you somewhere else. This is still direct, physical punishment. There's a scale to punishment; and there's also a scale to how much actual damage a child can do/can get into. If you put a child in a complete bubble, they do need less correction because there is less for them to harm themselves on. Which might be the actual driving difference. Being wrapped in historically odd safety has interesting effects on a society.
You literally said that we (us wonky Europeans who don't beat their children) are "drugging a child up to the nines" which is flat out wrong. Now you're trying to tell me that taking some child's toys away is physical punishment, which firstly: is also wrong(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_punishment), and secondly, is not was this thread is about.
Also, just because you don't use corporal punishment you're not "putting your child into a bubble". You're simply raising it without resorting to physical punishment.
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Canada11350 Posts
On September 21 2014 06:28 IgnE wrote:
If it's good enough for kids why isn't it good enough for adults. For everyone who advocates spanking do you also advocate caning for criminals and public offenders?
Caning is not equivalent to spanking. Caning is equivalent to beating your child and I do not advocate that. There is no equivalent because there really is only a window of time where it can work. After a certain age it inevitably becomes ineffective because if administred in the way advocates suggest, you were not using much force all along.
There is no magical time at the end of childhood when spanking becomes ineffective, because children vary so much emotionally and developmentally. But as a general guideline, I would suggest that most corporal punishment be finished prior to the first grade (six years old). It should taper off from there and stop when the child is between the ages of ten and twelve.
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Spanking is more humiliating than hurtful tho, I'm not hugely against spanking, eventhough I'm pretty sure there are a lot of better options and it's for parents that are terrible at conversation with their kids. But if you are hitting your kid with a belt, or a stick, you deserve a long time in jail.
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On September 21 2014 06:40 Terranist wrote:
i believe timeout is more effective in some cases. i feared losing my gameboy for a week more than i did being spanked. adrian peterson's child is probably spoiled as all hell though so spanking is probably the only good option he had.
yeah, bet all the child abusers just dont have better options
pls, the dude beat his child till the kid was bleeding
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On September 21 2014 06:00 Falling wrote:Show nested quote + It teaches them some flawed kind of lesson that teaches you that you should be respectful to people or else you will be punished, rather than teaching people to be good for the sake of being good. Isn't that true of most forms of discipline such as grounding? If you don't talk respectfully, you will be punished by sitting in your room rather than talking respectfully for its own sake? Or do you advocate only talking about the benefits of obedience when a child is willfully disobeying while getting sassy about it?
Well punishment is punishment, but if they learn that spanking is what you should fear/respect/whatever, gl having them respect a school teacher who cannot spank them for obvious reasons. Assume a teacher had to discipline a child at school, how'd they ever exercise authority?
I dont know exactly how I'd pin it down, I'd just make sure to have contact with the child so they understand what they've done wrong rather than just be afraid of the punishment. I know children are smart enough to have a sense of right and wrong from a very early age.
In regards to unruly / naughty kids (especially the "hyper" boys), as long as they aren't doing anything with malicious intent and that I feel like I can be in contact with them I think (emphasize this word alot atm), that most kids will be better once they mature and grow up some.
In any case, I just fail to see how spanking teaches anything else than "what is wrong and what is okay", instead of "why x is wrong and why x is okay", it's very foreign to me, especially since the people I know who've been spanked as a child think more in "what's" than in "why's".
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THAT WAS QUOTE AND NOT EDIT WHOOPS
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The real problem is that people can be dumb and get carried away especially when they are stressed and feel provoked. The example in OP is case in point. It's better to say: "Don't hit your kid, ever.", then to try to establish some vague guidelines that parents will forget or twist when the red mist comes down.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Was spanked with hand only. We actually made it illegal for parents to forcible discipline their children here and it's worked out pretty well. Despite there being very few prosecutions, it does show that NZ society is by in large not okay with this kind of brutality. If you're using an external object and/or drawing blood and/or causing bruising that's seriously fucked imo.
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Canada11350 Posts
On September 21 2014 07:34 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 06:00 Falling wrote: It teaches them some flawed kind of lesson that teaches you that you should be respectful to people or else you will be punished, rather than teaching people to be good for the sake of being good. Isn't that true of most forms of discipline such as grounding? If you don't talk respectfully, you will be punished by sitting in your room rather than talking respectfully for its own sake? Or do you advocate only talking about the benefits of obedience when a child is willfully disobeying while getting sassy about it? Well punishment is punishment, but if they learn that spanking is what you should fear/respect/whatever, gl having them respect a school teacher who cannot spank them for obvious reasons. Assume a teacher had to discipline a child at school, how'd they ever exercise authority? I dont know exactly how I'd pin it down, I'd just make sure to have contact with the child so they understand what they've done wrong rather than just be afraid of the punishment. I know children are smart enough to have a sense of right and wrong from a very early age. In regards to unruly / naughty kids (especially the "hyper" boys), as long as they aren't doing anything with malicious intent and that I feel like I can be in contact with them I think (emphasize this word alot atm), that most kids will be better once they mature and grow up some. In any case, I just fail to see how spanking teaches anything else than "what is wrong and what is okay", instead of "why x is wrong and why x is okay", it's very foreign to me, especially since the people I know who've been spanked as a child think more in "what's" than in "why's".
The point is to train them up when they are young, so they will continue when they are older- phase out by grade school, though maybe rarely used after. (tbh honest, it varies a lot. The oldest child tends to get the most as a bit of trail-blazer in many respects. The younger siblings have a lot of older siblings warning them not to do this or that- assuming a family of more than one or two children.) Spanking does not form a narrowly applicable lesson of only respecting the person who spanks you. Presumably though, if a teacher is having troubles with a child, then when the teacher contacts the parents, they are the sort of parents that will follow up at home rather than a push back against the teacher.
When spanking is necessary, it is rarely the case that the child simply did not know what was wrong. That's not the time for it, that would be a great time for explanations and a myriad of other methods. Where it is more likely coming into play is they are doing wrong, and they don't care. When they understand perfectly well, and then go ahead contra your explanation, request, alternative option, etc.
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yeah i was spanked.
nothing lasting damage though, it's normally the dissapointment from my parents that hurt the most
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On September 21 2014 06:40 Terranist wrote:
i believe timeout is more effective in some cases. i feared losing my gameboy for a week more than i did being spanked. adrian peterson's child is probably spoiled as all hell though so spanking is probably the only good option he had.
Same, I think it's more common in poor families because they have fewer expensive toys and electronics to take away. My parents only hit me when they were actually angry, never as planned discipline.
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No, it's wrong in a civilization where other physical harm isn't allowed either. This would be different back in the stone age. We're intelligent enough to find good ways to teach our children things without hitting them, hurting them to know they have to ''stop.'' There's enough studies done on how to actually treat a child, the optimal ways to make them listen or get respect. There is just no justification, at least not in the western part of this world.Spanking in this day and age in my eyes just seems like you're an incompetent parent.
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On September 20 2014 21:13 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 20:27 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 20:17 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 20:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On September 20 2014 19:32 Squat wrote:On September 20 2014 19:26 qotsager wrote:On September 20 2014 19:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Poll is a big strange, I think almost every kid in the world been spanked at least few times, but the question is about frequency of spanks, right? Personally I've been spanked few times when I was a kid, but I deserved that for sure, and still don't remember any spanking process like it was any other punishment for kids, for example a week without TV or so on, so my answer was "No".
So as a kid I never felt the violence. none of my friends whom i've asked have ever been hit by their parents. zero. to me, the idea of beating your own child because you fail to get your point across otherwise seems pretty fucking pathetic. violence is disgusting and kids should grow up learning not to use it, but as long as their parents do it, it's no biggie. makes me sick. It's fairly telling why that is, just from looking at your respective countries of residence. I think it's safe to say that Germany and Ukraine may have some differing philosophies on child rearing. The irony is that i'm not acting violently, never. And few slaps on ur butt won't change a whole thing when u're a kid, right? The question is about would u ever cross the edge. And it's not about specific country philosophy, it's very personal way of punishment for kids, some gonna choose a week TV ban for his kid, and somebody gonna slap a butt few times, and u never know which punishment will be better/worse for kid personally. There are absolutely arguments to be made that using physical violence as a form of punishment is objectively worse than banning them from using the internet for the weekend. Everything we know about human psychology is reducible to bio-chemistry, neurology and how it operates in the brain. At some point, I strongly suspect it will be perfectly compatible with science to say that beating one's children is objectively bad for them, and for the parents as well. Okay, let's say yes, physical punishment is a bad thing, but it dosen't mean that such punishment it the worst case scenario for a kid, but it is definitely the worst thing for parents who does the punishment. Personally for kid it might be worse to get his mouth cleaned with soap rather than get few slaps, can it be? Moreover, parents are using different punishments and not repeating one from time to time. Ofc it's better to have a perfect kid, who never get in trouble and never causes them, but what if u got a little devil? What if he doesnt care about TV or internet access and tourting pets frequently for example? What u gonna do? It feels like Germans doesn't accept that situations might be different, and on a different situiation u have to pick a different solution, life is not a couple of algorithms with a sinlge right answer, it is more complicated. Nothing personal about Germans, it's just u guys who says that never been spanked, that surprised me :D If he tortures other living creatures as a pastime, spanking is about as effective as a bandaid on a severed arm. Also, punishing a kid by cleaning his mouth with soap is physical abuse by any definition. You are forcefully inserting harmful and painful chemicals and substances into the child's mouth, for the express purpose of imparting a lesson. It's worse than spanking because the physical pain and violation is worse, not because it's different. Again, children are children, German or Ukrainian or Canadian or wherever from. There is no different principle of psychological well-being that only applies to children within a specific geographic area. You are right that the variables involved are complex, but the answer is probably rather simple: Beating children is very likely bad for them, and this is likely going to be substantiated by science within a few decades at most.
A little soap never hurt anyone.
Im personally not against spanking or washing someones mouth out with soap.
Howeve i think someone needs to clarify a defintion of spanking cause i feel lik people might be taking it too far.
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On September 21 2014 06:41 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 06:28 IgnE wrote:
If it's good enough for kids why isn't it good enough for adults. For everyone who advocates spanking do you also advocate caning for criminals and public offenders? Caning is not equivalent to spanking. Caning is equivalent to beating your child and I do not advocate that. There is no equivalent because there really is only a window of time where it can work. After a certain age it inevitably becomes ineffective because if administred in the way advocates suggest, you were not using much force all along. Show nested quote +There is no magical time at the end of childhood when spanking becomes ineffective, because children vary so much emotionally and developmentally. But as a general guideline, I would suggest that most corporal punishment be finished prior to the first grade (six years old). It should taper off from there and stop when the child is between the ages of ten and twelve.
To be fair, a spank on the hand of a sixteen year old is not going to be effective at all, if you're going to whup a sixteen year old you're going to have to use a cane or something similar to have any effect.
Then again, if they're not disciplined by the time they're that old it's too late anyway, so it's probably not worth it then.
On September 21 2014 07:43 Plexa wrote:
Was spanked with hand only. We actually made it illegal for parents to forcible discipline their children here and it's worked out pretty well. Despite there being very few prosecutions, it does show that NZ society is by in large not okay with this kind of brutality. If you're using an external object and/or drawing blood and/or causing bruising that's seriously fucked imo.
As a fellow New Zealander, it's false that it has worked out pretty well. The number of notifications that police receive every year has risen vastly, but the number of prosecutions has scarcely changed. The law change is clearly ineffective. In addition, there's no indication that the law change has done anything to decrease the amount of actual child abuse. Instead, real child abusers are now mixed in with thousands of ordinary parents who smack their children, making it harder for the police to find the real child abuse. Because of the sheer number of notifications the police receive, they have actually decreased the percentage of notifications they check up on; this would not have happened if the law had not changed, as the notifications would be much fewer (no ordinary smackings reported).
New Zealand society at large is AGAINST the anti-smacking bill, with numbers at approximately 80% the last I saw (earlier this year). New Zealanders at large are against child abuse, certainly. NZers at large are NOT against smacking and it is false to insinuate so.
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On September 21 2014 07:34 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 06:00 Falling wrote: It teaches them some flawed kind of lesson that teaches you that you should be respectful to people or else you will be punished, rather than teaching people to be good for the sake of being good. Isn't that true of most forms of discipline such as grounding? If you don't talk respectfully, you will be punished by sitting in your room rather than talking respectfully for its own sake? Or do you advocate only talking about the benefits of obedience when a child is willfully disobeying while getting sassy about it? Well punishment is punishment, but if they learn that spanking is what you should fear/respect/whatever, gl having them respect a school teacher who cannot spank them for obvious reasons. Assume a teacher had to discipline a child at school, how'd they ever exercise authority? I dont know exactly how I'd pin it down, I'd just make sure to have contact with the child so they understand what they've done wrong rather than just be afraid of the punishment. I know children are smart enough to have a sense of right and wrong from a very early age. In regards to unruly / naughty kids (especially the "hyper" boys), as long as they aren't doing anything with malicious intent and that I feel like I can be in contact with them I think (emphasize this word alot atm), that most kids will be better once they mature and grow up some. In any case, I just fail to see how spanking teaches anything else than "what is wrong and what is okay", instead of "why x is wrong and why x is okay", it's very foreign to me, especially since the people I know who've been spanked as a child think more in "what's" than in "why's".
The teacher can just tell the parent about the disobedience. The teacher doesn't need to be able to inflict any punishment at all.
A threat of a call to a student's parents can be pretty damn effective if the parents actually discipline the child.
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Yes I was, and I believe it was very beneficial. Usually it was just with a hand or a wooden spoon, etc.
If I choose to have kids, I will 100% use it as a parenting tool as I believe it is very effective. It boggles my mind that government would get so involved, they are your children for crying out loud, you deserve some control of raising them like you want to.
Honestly, I'm leaning away from having kids year by year, simply because the kids don't feel like "mine", and just a product of the government, and that's not what family is to me.
edit: To me it feels like more and more, kids are not well disciplined, and it just turns out we get so many little shits that end up being toxic for all of society as they get older. Maybe there are better ways, but the matter of fact is it's effective, and it's quick. I'm sorry that some people are working 40 hours a week + unpaid lunches + 2 hours transportation there and back, and still wish to have a life with their partner, there are times when you simply don't have an hour or two to talk to you kid to reason with him, especially after an exhausting day of work when you have twenty emails left to send out, some time (15-30) with your wife to spend, vacuum, dishes... AND then have some time for yourself. Just because I do this stuff doesn't mean I'm not qualified to have kids, and raise them well.
edit2: Anyway, I really want to give a big fuck you to everyone that would try to prevent me from disciplining my kids. I'm against beating, drawing blood, beating with belts, but for fucks sake, they are MY KIDS, keep your fucking claws off of them. Just like how you wouldn't like if SOSPA went through, I wouldn't like you touching my kids, I'd treat them well, and raise them well. (Just like how you'd use the internet well)... Stay the fuck away from my life, I don't tell you who you can have sex with, I don't tell you how to have sex, I don't tell you what TV shows to watch, whatever. Spanking is one of the SMALLEST issues I can think of when it comes to parenting.
How about alcoholism, drugs, smoking, irresponsibility, watching inappropriate content, beating, neglect, giving them unhealthy food, not keeping them safe from accidents occurring, support for mental well being. Like honestly, out of all the things you would focus your attention on, why in the world would you care about spanking. Just because spanking could be abused and turn into beating, doesn't mean you ban it! Like what kind of logic is that? Just because you can mistake a 20 year old for a 17 year old means you don't let 20 year olds have sex? Just because there is potential for abuse in something as important as this, does not mean you ban it... Just bleh. Please, stay the fuck away from my family if I'm not causing you harm, and when I want the best for my family. You might think you know better than me as to what my family needs, you really might, but in reality, you don't, you really don't. I apologize for getting this mad and into this rant mood, but most people here don't have kids and are talking out of their ass, and I just really really disagree with any government involved in family matters, and once people prove they are of certain level of competence, they have some freedom in their life... Like choosing to wear a seat belt at 30km/h, choosing what their kids eat, choosing which classes their kids should take, etc.
There needs to be a level of trust between the government and the people (for fucks sake, due some metal examination), but stop monitoring my family, stay out of that life, and let me live in peace.
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I was spanked and i liked it.
Seriously though, i was "spanked" and it doesnt bother me at all, never even think about it.
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Canada11355 Posts
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess.
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On September 21 2014 10:51 Fecalfeast wrote:
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess.
I think that when a kid is 4-5 years old, you can't reason everything with them. To an extent you must treat them like a puppy, and train them in a way where the outcome of their action is undesirable.
I don't think the difference between hitting, grounding, not giving them what they want, or whatever is that much different. Only difference is one is at an emotional level, while one is at a physical level, and both are wrong in society.
However, I think hitting them is something that will last longer, and honestly I'd say that minor physical pain (like getting hit with a wooden spoon) is much less harmful in the long term than emotional or mental punishment. Again, I'm glad you have an opinion on the matter, but I think it's something that you should "bug off" with, from my viewpoint. As long as I'm raising my kid reasonably well, I don't think there should be anyone who interferes, and the fact that this was the norm 40 years ago, most likely means this isn't some awful way of raising a child. That's why, if it's not game changing, stay away from peoples' families. I'm sure you wouldn't like if I started telling you what you have to feed to your kid or something.
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I certainly was, but only when I REALLY fucked up as a kid, maybe 5 or 6 times at most. I was also punched by my father exactly one time.
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On September 21 2014 10:51 Fecalfeast wrote:
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess.
Yep, just the way I see it. If my kids ever acquire any learned violent behaviors, it won't be from me. I guess when you have a paranoid schizophrenic mother that accuses her children of all sorts of false things and get the belt for it, it's easy to see where anger issues and problems with authority can stem from. Some of Louis CK skits about the issue is pretty much how I see it. On the other hand I don't want to try and tell others how to raise their kids... it's not my conscience. Just beware when that dog turns on its master like I did.
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On September 21 2014 10:51 Fecalfeast wrote:
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess.
Because at the age you would spank a child (under 10 or so), that child is incapable of reason. Without real repercussions, all the reasoning in the world will not dissuade some children from misbehaving.
Spanking does not mean you can't also explain why what they did was wrong. It's just that the explanation alone is not enough at times.
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Canada11355 Posts
On September 21 2014 10:57 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 10:51 Fecalfeast wrote:
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess. I think that when a kid is 4-5 years old, you can't reason everything with them. To an extent you must treat them like a puppy, and train them in a way where the outcome of their action is undesirable. I don't think the difference between hitting, grounding, not giving them what they want, or whatever is that much different. Only difference is one is at an emotional level, while one is at a physical level, and both are wrong in society. However, I think hitting them is something that will last longer, and honestly I'd say that minor physical pain (like getting hit with a wooden spoon) is much less harmful in the long term than emotional or mental punishment. Again, I'm glad you have an opinion on the matter, but I think it's something that you should "bug off" with, from my viewpoint. As long as I'm raising my kid reasonably well, I don't think there should be anyone who interferes, and the fact that this was the norm 40 years ago, most likely means this isn't some awful way of raising a child. That's why, if it's not game changing, stay away from peoples' families. I'm sure you wouldn't like if I started telling you what you have to feed to your kid or something.
I also don't hit my dogs, who cannot reason at even a 3-year-old level and they are also well-behaved.
Just because you want to take the easy road that involved violence, which should be abhorred in our society not protected, does not mean that I should 'bug off' on the matter. Again, all you teach a child at that age (4-5 years) by hitting is that punishment should be avoided (notice I say punishment and not bad behaviour) and that when you can't reason with someone in a situation where you believe yourself to be in the right, violence is a viable option.
I seriously can't believe how many people here are advocating and defending adults who use violence against 4 year olds...
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I live in North America and was spanked as a child, and I think it's perfectly acceptable. Obviously there's a line that shouldn't be crossed, though.
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OMG I MADE A TYPE IN THE POLL, WOOW... TOO* not TO... Sorry, I'm literate in stuff in English.
Poll: In general. Does government play too large of a role in family life?Yes, wayy to big of a role. (11) 46% They should make more laws and enforce them. (8) 33% Just right the way it is. (3) 13% A little bit more than I'd like. (2) 8% 24 total votes Your vote: In general. Does government play too large of a role in family life? (Vote): Yes, wayy to big of a role.
(Vote): A little bit more than I'd like.
(Vote): Just right the way it is.
(Vote): They should make more laws and enforce them.
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Canada11355 Posts
On September 21 2014 11:00 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 10:51 Fecalfeast wrote:
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess. Yep, just the way I see it. If my kids ever acquire any learned violent behaviors, it won't be from me. I guess when you have a paranoid schizophrenic mother that accuses her children of all sorts of false things and get the belt for it, it's easy to see where anger issues and problems with authority can stem from. Some of Louis CK skits about the issue is pretty much how I see it. On the other hand I don't want to try and tell others how to raise their kids... it's not my conscience. Just beware when that dog turns on its master like I did.
This post raises another point I was about to make. I have friends who were beat, I have friends who were spanked, I have friends who got the belt. Want to know one thing they had in common all throughout highschool? They constantly talked about how much they disliked their parents.
I think I am missing a crucial part of this discussion. Someone please create a hypothetical situation wherein a child not only 'deserves' to be spanked/hit but there is no alternative method to correct the behaviour.
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Canada11355 Posts
On September 21 2014 11:07 FiWiFaKi wrote:Poll: In general. Does government play too large of a role in family life?Yes, wayy to big of a role. (11) 46% They should make more laws and enforce them. (8) 33% Just right the way it is. (3) 13% A little bit more than I'd like. (2) 8% 24 total votes Your vote: In general. Does government play too large of a role in family life? (Vote): Yes, wayy to big of a role.
(Vote): A little bit more than I'd like.
(Vote): Just right the way it is.
(Vote): They should make more laws and enforce them.
I voted 'wayy too much'
I will never advocate government intervention in family matters. The government has nothing to do with what I am saying
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On September 21 2014 11:05 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 10:57 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 21 2014 10:51 Fecalfeast wrote:
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess. I think that when a kid is 4-5 years old, you can't reason everything with them. To an extent you must treat them like a puppy, and train them in a way where the outcome of their action is undesirable. I don't think the difference between hitting, grounding, not giving them what they want, or whatever is that much different. Only difference is one is at an emotional level, while one is at a physical level, and both are wrong in society. However, I think hitting them is something that will last longer, and honestly I'd say that minor physical pain (like getting hit with a wooden spoon) is much less harmful in the long term than emotional or mental punishment. Again, I'm glad you have an opinion on the matter, but I think it's something that you should "bug off" with, from my viewpoint. As long as I'm raising my kid reasonably well, I don't think there should be anyone who interferes, and the fact that this was the norm 40 years ago, most likely means this isn't some awful way of raising a child. That's why, if it's not game changing, stay away from peoples' families. I'm sure you wouldn't like if I started telling you what you have to feed to your kid or something. I also don't hit my dogs, who cannot reason at even a 3-year-old level and they are also well-behaved. Just because you want to take the easy road that involved violence, which should be abhorred in our society not protected, does not mean that I should 'bug off' on the matter. Again, all you teach a child at that age (4-5 years) by hitting is that punishment should be avoided (notice I say punishment and not bad behaviour) and that when you can't reason with someone in a situation where you believe yourself to be in the right, violence is a viable option. I seriously can't believe how many people here are advocating and defending adults who use violence against 4 year olds...
You are not looking at this correctly (in my opinion of course)
Think of it this way, a kid touches fire, it gets burned, kid does not touch fire again. A kid does something really stupid, you don't need to give them a deep explanation of why not to do it. Teach it that's wrong like a reflex, no thinking involved as a kid.
Again, when you touch a fire, you don't go justify to yourself that because the molecules are vibrating too quickly, their kinetic energy will transfer to your skin very quickly, raise the temperature, and begin to break molecular bonds in your skin. Right? Exact same way you treat a kid if he's going to be really misbehaving. I wasn't tough violence, I don't hate my parents, it can be done in effective ways.
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business.
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Canada11355 Posts
On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:05 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 21 2014 10:57 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 21 2014 10:51 Fecalfeast wrote:
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess. I think that when a kid is 4-5 years old, you can't reason everything with them. To an extent you must treat them like a puppy, and train them in a way where the outcome of their action is undesirable. I don't think the difference between hitting, grounding, not giving them what they want, or whatever is that much different. Only difference is one is at an emotional level, while one is at a physical level, and both are wrong in society. However, I think hitting them is something that will last longer, and honestly I'd say that minor physical pain (like getting hit with a wooden spoon) is much less harmful in the long term than emotional or mental punishment. Again, I'm glad you have an opinion on the matter, but I think it's something that you should "bug off" with, from my viewpoint. As long as I'm raising my kid reasonably well, I don't think there should be anyone who interferes, and the fact that this was the norm 40 years ago, most likely means this isn't some awful way of raising a child. That's why, if it's not game changing, stay away from peoples' families. I'm sure you wouldn't like if I started telling you what you have to feed to your kid or something. I also don't hit my dogs, who cannot reason at even a 3-year-old level and they are also well-behaved. Just because you want to take the easy road that involved violence, which should be abhorred in our society not protected, does not mean that I should 'bug off' on the matter. Again, all you teach a child at that age (4-5 years) by hitting is that punishment should be avoided (notice I say punishment and not bad behaviour) and that when you can't reason with someone in a situation where you believe yourself to be in the right, violence is a viable option. I seriously can't believe how many people here are advocating and defending adults who use violence against 4 year olds... You are not looking at this correctly (in my opinion of course) Think of it this way, a kid touches fire, it gets burned, kid does not touch fire again. A kid does something really stupid, you don't need to give them a deep explanation of why not to do it. Teach it that's wrong like a reflex, no thinking involved as a kid. Again, when you touch a fire, you don't go justify to yourself that because the molecules are vibrating too quickly, their kinetic energy will transfer to your skin very quickly, raise the temperature, and begin to break molecular bonds in your skin. Right? Exact same way you treat a kid if he's going to be really misbehaving.
What are you even trying to say? What I got from this post cannot be what you mean. It's like you are saying: "If my kid does <undisclosed action that is bad>, I don't want him to know why it is bad, just that if he does that thing, he will be struck."
So you want your child to just do whatever he got hit for while you aren't looking to see why you were so upset about it?
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Canada11355 Posts
On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business.
"I just think that if I want to smack my own 4 year old on the mouth for stealing cookies, nobody should say a fucking word about it"
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On September 21 2014 11:17 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 21 2014 11:05 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 21 2014 10:57 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 21 2014 10:51 Fecalfeast wrote:
Why do you need violence to raise your children? In what scenario does a child prove to be such a danger that words and, in the case of the child being violent?
You want the child to behave but lack the motivation to put the effort in to explaining why something is wrong? Just slap it around! Not only do you get the child to stop misbehaving at that moment, you teach the child a valuable lesson in how the world works!
If we want children to grow up into decent members of society we should probably teach them that initiating violence when not in physical danger is wrong. Just my opinion I guess. I think that when a kid is 4-5 years old, you can't reason everything with them. To an extent you must treat them like a puppy, and train them in a way where the outcome of their action is undesirable. I don't think the difference between hitting, grounding, not giving them what they want, or whatever is that much different. Only difference is one is at an emotional level, while one is at a physical level, and both are wrong in society. However, I think hitting them is something that will last longer, and honestly I'd say that minor physical pain (like getting hit with a wooden spoon) is much less harmful in the long term than emotional or mental punishment. Again, I'm glad you have an opinion on the matter, but I think it's something that you should "bug off" with, from my viewpoint. As long as I'm raising my kid reasonably well, I don't think there should be anyone who interferes, and the fact that this was the norm 40 years ago, most likely means this isn't some awful way of raising a child. That's why, if it's not game changing, stay away from peoples' families. I'm sure you wouldn't like if I started telling you what you have to feed to your kid or something. I also don't hit my dogs, who cannot reason at even a 3-year-old level and they are also well-behaved. Just because you want to take the easy road that involved violence, which should be abhorred in our society not protected, does not mean that I should 'bug off' on the matter. Again, all you teach a child at that age (4-5 years) by hitting is that punishment should be avoided (notice I say punishment and not bad behaviour) and that when you can't reason with someone in a situation where you believe yourself to be in the right, violence is a viable option. I seriously can't believe how many people here are advocating and defending adults who use violence against 4 year olds... You are not looking at this correctly (in my opinion of course) Think of it this way, a kid touches fire, it gets burned, kid does not touch fire again. A kid does something really stupid, you don't need to give them a deep explanation of why not to do it. Teach it that's wrong like a reflex, no thinking involved as a kid. Again, when you touch a fire, you don't go justify to yourself that because the molecules are vibrating too quickly, their kinetic energy will transfer to your skin very quickly, raise the temperature, and begin to break molecular bonds in your skin. Right? Exact same way you treat a kid if he's going to be really misbehaving. What are you even trying to say? What I got from this post cannot be what you mean. It's like you are saying: "If my kid does <undisclosed action that is bad>, I don't want him to know why it is bad, just that if he does that thing, he will be struck." So you want your child to just do whatever he got hit for while you aren't looking to see why you were so upset about it?
I think you should tell them, and every spanking should be with an explanation, afterwards preferred imo.
But reality is, I don't think it sticks nearly as well as a little tingle of physical pain. It's something that needs to be repeated, and through that explanation and punishment, the kid will learn what's right and what's wrong. There's more than one approach to raising a kid, I've seen lots of different things, having been raised in Slovakia and then moving to Canada, and from what I can tell, as long as the kid isn't coming to school with visible marks on their skin, physical abuse is usually not the culprit(not that I condone that behavior in my family, but if someone else was doing it, I wouldn't step in until it surpassed that threshold).... And much more likely neglect or substance abuse.
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On September 21 2014 11:19 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business. "I just think that if I want to smack my own 4 year old on the mouth for stealing cookies, nobody should say a fucking word about it"
I wouldn't hit my kid for that, but I think people should have the right to yes. I would oppose hitting to the head, but I have no issue warranting a spanking for the kid if he's breaking the house rules.
It's the long time example. How should the punishment differ for stealing a bushel of wheat versus stealing a carriage, when the intention is the same. The size of what's stolen should not be proportional to the punishment, rather it should be logarithmic.
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Canada11355 Posts
Here I was thinking the general consensus would be to avoid violence at all possible avenues.
This thread is a real eye-opener. You say you weren't "tough" violence, which I assume you mean taught, but you are advocating it right now.
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Canada11355 Posts
AS LONG AS YOU BEAT YOUR CHILD SO THAT THERE ARE NO VISIBLE MARKS, THE PHYSICAL ABUSE CANNOT BE THE CAUSE OF EMOTIONAL OR BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS
You heard it here first folks.
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Canada11350 Posts
On September 21 2014 10:20 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 06:41 Falling wrote:On September 21 2014 06:28 IgnE wrote:
If it's good enough for kids why isn't it good enough for adults. For everyone who advocates spanking do you also advocate caning for criminals and public offenders? Caning is not equivalent to spanking. Caning is equivalent to beating your child and I do not advocate that. There is no equivalent because there really is only a window of time where it can work. After a certain age it inevitably becomes ineffective because if administred in the way advocates suggest, you were not using much force all along. There is no magical time at the end of childhood when spanking becomes ineffective, because children vary so much emotionally and developmentally. But as a general guideline, I would suggest that most corporal punishment be finished prior to the first grade (six years old). It should taper off from there and stop when the child is between the ages of ten and twelve. To be fair, a spank on the hand of a sixteen year old is not going to be effective at all, if you're going to whup a sixteen year old you're going to have to use a cane or something similar to have any effect. Then again, if they're not disciplined by the time they're that old it's too late anyway, so it's probably not worth it then.
Well, that's exactly what I mean. You do it early or not at all. You do it early and phase it out before they are out of elementary. Because yes, it would require a 'whupping' and I believe that would be unethical, non-effective, and very likely to backfire where the teen assaults their 'old man.'
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On September 21 2014 11:27 Fecalfeast wrote:
Here I was thinking the general consensus would be to avoid violence at all possible avenues.
This thread is a real eye-opener. You say you weren't "tough" violence, which I assume you mean taught, but you are advocating it right now.
I meant to say rough (t and r are next to each other on the keyboard), apologies for the typo.
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Let's at least agree on something. You do need sanctions and punishments of some sort with children right? You can't just go full on negotiating/argumenting and stuff, it doesn't work that way.
Whether it's okay for them to be of physical nature is debatable, but then again there are psychological warfare type of punishments that are probably much worse. What do you all feel is the best way to give a quick and efficient "don't do that" lesson to a child when you can't really argue? Or do you believe you can always argue? (Then good luck, you're in for a tough time :D).
Edit: Well, I'll just say it nonetheless, I'm against all types of physical punishment, spanking or whatever else, but I'm far from being a parent, so I don't really have any idea of what I could do if I'm out of arguments :D. Things like confiscating something, like a toy?
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Canada11355 Posts
On September 21 2014 11:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:19 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business. "I just think that if I want to smack my own 4 year old on the mouth for stealing cookies, nobody should say a fucking word about it" I wouldn't hit my kid for that, but I think people should have the right to yes. I would oppose hitting to the head, but I have no issue warranting a spanking for the kid if he's breaking the house rules. It's the long time example. How should the punishment differ for stealing a bushel of wheat versus stealing a carriage, when the intention is the same. The size of what's stolen should not be proportional to the punishment, rather it should be logarithmic.
If you taught your child proper values when they were young, they would not be stealing wheat at all. You inflicting physical pain on someone who cannot possibly fight back does nothing to teach them any value other than 'pain = bad, avoid pain' and I think with that I leave the thread.
Have fun rolling the dice with your children and hoping they don't resent you for the rest of their lives!
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On September 21 2014 11:29 Fecalfeast wrote:
AS LONG AS YOU BEAT YOUR CHILD SO THAT THERE ARE NO VISIBLE MARKS, THE PHYSICAL ABUSE CANNOT BE THE CAUSE OF EMOTIONAL OR BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS
You heard it here first folks.
If there are no visible marks, the abuse is MUCH MUCH more likely to be from shouting, swearing, calling them worthless whores, neglect, or drug related incidents, yes.
If there's no marks ever, it shows the parent is able to show enough restrain that generally speaking they are disciplining their kids in effective ways rather than responding to something the kid did in rage. Yes, that's the case 95-99% of the time in my opinion.
Don't take what I said out of context.
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On September 21 2014 11:30 ZenithM wrote:
Let's at least agree on something. You do need sanctions and punishments of some sort with children right? You can't just go full on negotiating/argumenting and stuff, it doesn't work that way.
Whether it's okay for them to be of physical nature is debatable, but then again there are psychological warfare type of punishments that are probably much worse. What do you all feel is the best way to give a quick and efficient "don't do that" lesson to a child when you can't really argue? Or do you believe you can always argue? (Then good luck, you're in for a tough time :D).
Edit: Well, I'll just say it nonetheless, I'm against all types of physical punishment, spanking or whatever else, but I'm far from being a parent, so I don't really have any idea of what I could do if I'm out of arguments :D. Things like confiscating something, like a toy?
Yeah, I can agree with that. You can confiscate a toy, don't give them treats, and in my eyes, spank them as well. As long as you do it in a controlled manner, I think it's perfectly fine. It's more the parents that don't have that control where the kids might backfire.
I'm white for example, and my parents hit me, but we are still very close. My girlfriend is chinese, and her parents disciplined her a lot more, and she still loves her mom and whatnot, has utmost respect for them, she wont speak against them, and there's a form of relationship there, it's different, but it's what happens, and it works.
I dunno, I was raised with the spanking, with educated and reasonable parents, so I don't see the harm of it, and I think physical harm is more effective than psychological... And truthfully taking a kids toy will probably piss them off more than getting spanked.
On September 21 2014 11:32 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 21 2014 11:19 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business. "I just think that if I want to smack my own 4 year old on the mouth for stealing cookies, nobody should say a fucking word about it" I wouldn't hit my kid for that, but I think people should have the right to yes. I would oppose hitting to the head, but I have no issue warranting a spanking for the kid if he's breaking the house rules. It's the long time example. How should the punishment differ for stealing a bushel of wheat versus stealing a carriage, when the intention is the same. The size of what's stolen should not be proportional to the punishment, rather it should be logarithmic. If you taught your child proper values when they were young, they would not be stealing wheat at all. You inflicting physical pain on someone who cannot possibly fight back does nothing to teach them any value other than 'pain = bad, avoid pain' and I think with that I leave the thread. Have fun rolling the dice with your children and hoping they don't resent you for the rest of their lives!
Thanks for your perspective, too bad we couldn't come to a mututal conclusion, but I hope your kids are raised well. Nothing wrong with differing opinions.
I'd argue that parents feeling they have too little control over their children is a major factor of low birthrates in developed countries. Of course ones like both parents having to work in today's society, not wanting to set back career and whatnot are more significant, but I do think it plays a role.
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On September 21 2014 11:32 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 21 2014 11:19 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business. "I just think that if I want to smack my own 4 year old on the mouth for stealing cookies, nobody should say a fucking word about it" I wouldn't hit my kid for that, but I think people should have the right to yes. I would oppose hitting to the head, but I have no issue warranting a spanking for the kid if he's breaking the house rules. It's the long time example. How should the punishment differ for stealing a bushel of wheat versus stealing a carriage, when the intention is the same. The size of what's stolen should not be proportional to the punishment, rather it should be logarithmic. If you taught your child proper values when they were young, they would not be stealing wheat at all. You inflicting physical pain on someone who cannot possibly fight back does nothing to teach them any value other than 'pain = bad, avoid pain' and I think with that I leave the thread. Have fun rolling the dice with your children and hoping they don't resent you for the rest of their lives!
What kind of fucking logic is that. So you think by teaching them not to do something they won't do it? Well guess what, you're wrong. 5 year olds often needs to be reminded that what they're doing it right/wrong and spanking is one of the efficient method to do it. You think negotiating with a child will work?
lol
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Corporal punishment here in Germany in schools and as well at home has been outlawed for roughly 15 years(at home) and I honestly don't know anyone younger than 50 who has experienced corporal punishment regularly. Washing your kids mouth with soap? That sounds like some full metal jacket shit. It may come as a surprise to you all but you can actually raise your children without physically abusing them. We don't even treat our dogs like what some of you are describing here. Holy shit
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On September 21 2014 11:41 Nyxisto wrote:
Corporal punishment here in Germany in schools and as well at home has been outlawed for roughly 15 years(at home) and I honestly don't know anyone younger than 50 who has experienced corporal punishment regularly. Washing your kids mouth with soap? That sounds like some full metal jacket shit. It may come as a surprise to you all but you can actually raise your children without physically abusing them. We don't even treat our dogs like what some of you are describing here. Holy shit
Just because you do it differently, doesn't mean it's wrong. I could say lots of things are fucked up in Germany too, just like the Autobahn... And say the higher speed limit causes more deaths.
Luckily I'm not that ignorant, and know the Autobahn is safe, and in fact even more safe that urban roads when it comes to # of deaths/km travelled. The same way though, just because it's different from what you do in Germany, doesn't mean it's bad, or ineffective.
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You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are comparing beating children to motorways.
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If spanking worked, you'd only have to do it once.
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You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are shitposting and contribute nothing to the discussion.
Do you see what I did there^
On September 21 2014 11:53 HackBenjamin wrote:
If spanking worked, you'd only have to do it once.
I don't think this is true. Like I said above, younger children needs to be constantly reminded what is good/bad. You can tell your son not to run around the house but how long will that last? Maybe a month or less. They don't have the capable knowledge to make the right decision at that age.
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On September 21 2014 11:53 jidolboy wrote:
You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are shitposting and contribute nothing to the discussion.
Do you see what I did there^
+1
On September 21 2014 11:53 HackBenjamin wrote:
If spanking worked, you'd only have to do it once.
Just like how you never need to tell a kid anything more than once, right?
On September 21 2014 11:51 dismiss wrote:
You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are comparing beating children to motorways.
It's a valid comparison, your comment is usually used to derail a point based on the merit that it's unconventional rather than addressing the body of its message.
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Beating your children has no positive results, the study has been posted a few pages ago. Obviously everyone with a brain could figure this out themselves, because why on earth would beating your child be beneficial. Additionally, here is a recent article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-physical-punishment-idUSBREA0G16C20140117
I'm not condemning it because it's different, i'm condemning corporal punishment because it involves adults beating children. Jesus Christ America is a nice country and all , but sometimes I don't understand you.
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On September 21 2014 11:30 ZenithM wrote:
Let's at least agree on something. You do need sanctions and punishments of some sort with children right? You can't just go full on negotiating/argumenting and stuff, it doesn't work that way.
That's one of the biggest mistakes my wife makes imo. I never argue or negotiate with kids. They look for guidance and answers, they want and need to learn. I always follow through with punishments, where my wife will often give in- this is a grave mistake in how I see it. Luckily she goes off to work and I stay at home as Mr Mom and have all the time in the world to raise the kids. :D
I never need to raise my hand, my "evil stare" is enough to give them the deer in headlights look lol. I always explain thoroughly why whatever they did wrong was bad, and make sure they realize there are consequences. I took this approach right from the start- even though they certainly couldn't fully understand when very young, I feel like it was a great habit to live by and worked out very well as they get older. Depending, it could be a time out in the corner to doing yard work for a neighbor. The second one is one of my favorites as they hear another point of view and stories from other people which reinforce what I tell them. I'm really lucky though as my kids are extremely well behaved honestly, and I rarely ever need to punish them for much of anything. To me though, I would attribute a big part of that to not spanking them which turns into a vicious cycle and causes even more problems and behavioral issues (at least it did for me growing up).
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On September 21 2014 12:01 Nyxisto wrote:Beating your children has no positive results, the study has been posted a few pages ago. Obviously everyone with a brain could figure this out themselves, because why on earth would beating your child be beneficial. Additionally, here is a recent article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-physical-punishment-idUSBREA0G16C20140117I'm not condemning it because it's different, i'm condemning corporal punishment because it involves adults beating children. Jesus Christ America is a nice country and all , but sometimes I don't understand you.
"From this study, it's difficult to generalize the results to milder forms of punishment, like spanking," said Christopher Ferguson of Stetson University in Florida.
"There's a difference between a parent who spanks a child in the context of a loving family and explains what the spanking is for compared with the parent who starts swatting because of some other non-related situation," said Ferguson, who was not involved in the research.
"The context is probably important but we really haven't dealt with it yet," he added.
Did you even read the article? The article is from a Tanzania study, which has a GDP per capita of $700USD a year. Do you know how absurd you using that as research for developed countries is? Holy.
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The point of the article is that :
"At a minimum, they note, even if that is the case, their results show that corporal punishment does not improve children's behavior."
Nothing positive comes from beating your children. There are a million other studies that show this, too, which the article also mentions. There is nothing positive to it.
edit: this meta study that covers 62 years of data mentioned before confirms this. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
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On September 21 2014 12:01 Nyxisto wrote:Beating your children has no positive results, the study has been posted a few pages ago. Obviously everyone with a brain could figure this out themselves, because why on earth would beating your child be beneficial. Additionally, here is a recent article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-physical-punishment-idUSBREA0G16C20140117I'm not condemning it because it's different, i'm condemning corporal punishment because it involves adults beating children. Jesus Christ America is a nice country and all , but sometimes I don't understand you.
From the article you quoted:
"From this study, it's difficult to generalize the results to milder forms of punishment, like spanking," said Christopher Ferguson of Stetson University in Florida.
"There's a difference between a parent who spanks a child in the context of a loving family and explains what the spanking is for compared with the parent who starts swatting because of some other non-related situation," said Ferguson, who was not involved in the research.
As a poster (who did more research than 1 article worth) noted several pages ago, almost all of these studies are poorly done OR they target behaviors that most of the people participating in this discussion would categorize as willful abuse, rather than effective corporal punishment. If your study involves anything beyond 1-5 restrained applications of a hand/similar, you're stepping beyond what the majority of people mean when they use the term "spanking."
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Do ppl spank in Asia? I thought it's mostly slaps or whatnot
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"But the new research can only point to a relationship between behavioral problems and physical force for punishment - not a causal link, said Larzelere, who was not part of the study.
He pointed out that the researchers did not measure the children's behavior before corporal punishment occurred.
Hecker and his team acknowledge in their report that their study does not establish cause and effect. It could be argued that children with behavioral problems may be more likely to experience physical punishment."
I simply recommend not taking studies as facts. And sure, it may be not as good, as honest hard working parenting. But let me ask you something... Do bars improve productivity for people?
There are many things we are surrounded by everyday that aren't great for our life, but manageable. We are not raising monsters by parents spanking their kids in moderation in proper settings when it's justified. Therefore, like I said:
To government: Stay the fuck away from my family matters when I'm within reasonable limits.
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On September 21 2014 12:09 Nyxisto wrote:The point of the article is that : "At a minimum, they note, even if that is the case, their results show that corporal punishment does not improve children's behavior." Nothing positive comes from beating your children. There are a million other studies that show this, too, which the article also mentions. There is nothing positive to it. edit: this meta study that covers 62 years of data mentioned before confirms this. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
Are you just posting links without reading what they say?
In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment.
"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."
Baumrind et al. suggest that those parents whose emotional make-up may cause them to cross the line between appropriate corporal punishment and physical abuse should be counseled not to use corporal punishment as a technique to discipline their children. But, that other parents could use mild to moderate corporal punishment effectively. "The fact that some parents punish excessively and unwisely is not an argument, however, for counseling all parents not to punish at all."
In her reply to Baumrind et al., Gershoff states that excessive corporal punishment is more likely to be underreported than overreported and that the possibility of negative effects on children caution against the use of corporal punishment.
"Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use," Gershoff writes.
"Because we cannot guarantee the safety for all, we recommend it for none." That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for a research and professional institution to draw. The extension of that is not "corporal punishment in all forms to any degree is damaging and/or morally wrong."
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On September 21 2014 12:09 Nyxisto wrote:The point of the article is that : "At a minimum, they note, even if that is the case, their results show that corporal punishment does not improve children's behavior." Nothing positive comes from beating your children. There are a million other studies that show this, too, which the article also mentions. There is nothing positive to it. edit: this meta study that covers 62 years of data mentioned before confirms this. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
"But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.
"The act of corporal punishment itself is different across parents - parents vary in how frequently they use it, how forcefully they administer it, how emotionally aroused they are when they do it, and whether they combine it with other techniques. Each of these qualities of corporal punishment can determine which child-mediated processes are activated, and, in turn, which outcomes may be realized," Gershoff concludes.
The meta-analysis also demonstrates that the frequency and severity of the corporal punishment matters. The more often or more harshly a child was hit, the more likely they are to be aggressive or to have mental health problems."
"In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment."
wat
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On September 21 2014 12:14 Bigtony wrote:
"Because we cannot guarantee the safety for all, we recommend it for none." That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for a research and professional institution to draw. The extension of that is not "corporal punishment in all forms to any degree is damaging and/or morally wrong."
If you're looking for a scientific study that tells you that something is morally wrong I guess you'll have a hard time. As you apparently don't feel bad about beating children by yourself, as in my opinion every person should, the only thing I can try to do is to show that there is no objective reason to do it anyway.
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On September 21 2014 12:14 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 12:09 Nyxisto wrote:The point of the article is that : "At a minimum, they note, even if that is the case, their results show that corporal punishment does not improve children's behavior." Nothing positive comes from beating your children. There are a million other studies that show this, too, which the article also mentions. There is nothing positive to it. edit: this meta study that covers 62 years of data mentioned before confirms this. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx Are you just posting links without reading what they say? Show nested quote +
In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment.
"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."
Baumrind et al. suggest that those parents whose emotional make-up may cause them to cross the line between appropriate corporal punishment and physical abuse should be counseled not to use corporal punishment as a technique to discipline their children. But, that other parents could use mild to moderate corporal punishment effectively. "The fact that some parents punish excessively and unwisely is not an argument, however, for counseling all parents not to punish at all."
In her reply to Baumrind et al., Gershoff states that excessive corporal punishment is more likely to be underreported than overreported and that the possibility of negative effects on children caution against the use of corporal punishment.
"Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use," Gershoff writes.
"Because we cannot guarantee the safety for all, we recommend it for none." That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for a research and professional institution to draw. The extension of that is not "corporal punishment in all forms to any degree is damaging and/or morally wrong."
I appreciate you take the time to read it. It is true that people like to link studies and research willy nilly here without reading. I wish in topics especially like these, a certain level of posting standards were enforced. As these arguments never go anywhere.
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On September 21 2014 12:18 Nyxisto wrote:
If you're looking for a scientific study that tells you that something is morally wrong I guess you'll have a hard time. As you apparently don't feel bad about beating children by yourself, as in my opinion every person should, the only thing I can try to do is to show that there is no objective reason to do it anyway.
Sharing your opinion to sway the actions of others is just in my eyes. But at the same time, do you think about intervening in the matters of others, who spank their kids with a hand/spoon and discussing the wrongdoing afterwards? Since if you do, I have nothing to discuss with you.
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On September 21 2014 12:18 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 12:14 Bigtony wrote:
"Because we cannot guarantee the safety for all, we recommend it for none." That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for a research and professional institution to draw. The extension of that is not "corporal punishment in all forms to any degree is damaging and/or morally wrong."
If you're looking for a scientific study that tells you that something is morally wrong I guess you'll have a hard time. As you apparently don't feel bad about beating children by yourself, as in my opinion every person should, the only thing I can try to do is to show that there is no objective reason to do it anyway.
You are intentionally using inflammatory language to berate others and justify your position. No one (very few) is trying to justify "beating" their children. While that is the colloquial term for corporal punishment, "spanking" is the more appropriate term for this conversation AND the more accurate description of what most people are giving/receiving. The articles you link DON'T show that their is no reason to do it. The reality is that for the entirety of human history corporal punishment in some form has been the norm and the overwhelming majority of people who were corporally disciplined as children have no lasting negative effects into their adulthood.
I'll drop out of this topic on this note:
I received the occasional spanking from my parents as a child (<5 smacks on my bottom with a hand or spoon with enough force to sting for a short time, but never any marking) and at the time and in hindsight they were effective. When I was about 10 (?) this was dropped in favor of grounding/no TV/etc. All of my discipline was accompanied by an explanation of what I had done wrong (but almost always it was something I already knew I wasn't supposed to do) My sister/brother had the same and the three of us are emotionally healthy adults without any violent tendencies.
In discussing discipline with my parents (as an adult) they're only regret was that they had trouble maintaining their calm and explaining themselves (screaming/yelling is considered corporal punishment even if you don't call names/degrade/etc).
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Maybe I'm late to the party but I'll share my rather simple opinion. Why would showing your lack of confidence and teaching your children to fear would make them "behave"? They need to understand why they need to behave(so they can coexist without conflict in society mostly) and not fearing the bad behavior. The earlier you meet fear the earlier you'll start developing anxiety and depression. Shower them with love and understanding, be there for them and respect them(this is what parents lack the most imo) and they'll be an emotional fortress. Scar them and project your weakness onto them and they'll be antissocial ,have low self esteems and will grow into anxious and depressed adults who are not fit to raise children. This is what I got from my experience. Only opinions but whatever.
Also, I find it funny as all things my mother sat down and talked over with me were lessons learned and all the stuff she yelled and lost her patience made me learn nothing but to take my mother less seriously. If your parents don't respect you why would you respect them? Treat your children with dignity and love and you'll grow into people who share more than just bonds of family.
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Damn, I'm from the US and I was never spanked; I'm startled to see the NA poll tilted so far towards "yes". In fact, I can remember being roughly handled only once in my entire life. I'm from the Northeast, and my parents are both doctors, so probably predisposed to more liberal parenting.
I don't think I could ever hit a child, even my own. There are definitely times you have to be stern and harsh, and physically handle your child in some way, but I don't think you should ever resort to an aggressive, punitive strike.
Of course, I don't yet have children of my own so this view is necessarily inexperienced.
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I think if your brain ever crosses from "this is the appropriate discipline for this situation" to "I want to hit my child" that's a clear sign that you shouldn't do it.
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"How can I get this child to respect me??? Ahhh yes, violence!!!"
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On September 21 2014 11:57 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:53 jidolboy wrote:
You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are shitposting and contribute nothing to the discussion.
Do you see what I did there^ +1 Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:53 HackBenjamin wrote:
If spanking worked, you'd only have to do it once. Just like how you never need to tell a kid anything more than once, right?Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:51 dismiss wrote:
You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are comparing beating children to motorways. It's a valid comparison, your comment is usually used to derail a point based on the merit that it's unconventional rather than addressing the body of its message.
Not sure what point that is supposed to make against what I said. Do you think spanking is necessary to properly raise a child?
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Never got spanked, turned out fine and have discipline and toughness. Don't see the need
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On September 21 2014 12:33 Carwash wrote:
"How can I get this child to respect me??? Ahhh yes, violence!!!"
Thats all a child 8 and under will really understand in the heat of the moment. If they're in the middle of misbehaving, you can throw all the rhetoric you want at them, it will not do any good.
On September 21 2014 12:49 darthfoley wrote:
Never got spanked, turned out fine and have discipline and toughness. Don't see the need
Just because you were a saint of a child doesn't mean every child is.
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I got spanked, both by my parents and my teachers (didn't live in the states till 7th grade) but they always made it clear to me that it's a matter of discipline and not because they got mad for some random reason and beat the fuck outta me just cuz of it. I didn't remember a time where I actually disrespected their reasoning.
And they always used tools and the amount of force that never leave permanent damage. Stung, but never leave permanent damage, or, for that matter, any bleeding whatsoever. When I read that this guy actually caused to kid to bleed, it sounds like this guy had issues. If he really was just doing it for discipline, he's just a retard. Unless you really want someone to bleed, it's actually really fucking hard to do so.
I'm cool with it as a disciplinary tool because I personally feel that it actually benefited me even in the short run, but if you even remotely feel like you don't know what the fuck you're doing, stay away from it. I've seen way too many cases of actual child abuse but because of "discipline" and the overall Asian mentality to pussy out from actually intervening into "personal affairs", no one stopped them and kids grew up mentally fucked up.
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Yes, but it's honestly one of the least worrisome things I had growing up.
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On September 21 2014 12:33 Carwash wrote:
"How can I get this child to respect me??? Ahhh yes, violence!!!"
"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." <- Yes i've met people that takes that seriously.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Well... this is what I, as a 19 year old, thinks about it: In the real world I think it is necesary. Sometimes. And with a meaning.
I rarely got "spanked" but it happened when i did something stupid or real bad. Most of the time my father would talk to me, send me to my room and that kind of stuff, but when i did someting really stupid, he did slap me. Although he never used a belt or something like that.
My mother on the other hand, never slapped me or anything, and looking at it now... I think it made me respect less her authority. For example, if my mother said i coudn't go out with my friends for "x" reason, somethimes i would go anyway. When my father said i wouldn't go, i didn't go.
I used to take tae-kown-do classes, and there they would "spank" us with a wooden sword if we did something bad (fighting with someone, arriving late, etc). If you were a child, the teacher woudn't really hit you, just said things like "if you do that again, i'll use the wooden sword". Im my case, when I was training to become a black belt, he would be stricter with us, and he would hit us (not that hard, but yeah somewhat hard) if we were late or did something wrong, but he would do it with a meaning: he would say that, since we would soon be black belts, we were an example to others, an example of dedication, and discipline. Here we would recieve a splap, but in other places, they would fire us, or could even kill us in a fight The other students should look up to us, and so, we were expected to do more than them. So we should always arrive early, work harder and never fight against other people (unless in practice, or really really necesary to protect ourselves).
There was the meaning, and it was a good reason. Now, you could say that hitting us wan't necessary, he could have done anything else, but i think it was fine because of two reasons:
1.-Other students would see it, so they will understand that there are consecuences to your acts, without needing to be slaped. That way, he woudn't need to really spank others.
2.-That slap would give you an immediate counsecuence for your act.
Now, while point 1 doesn't really apply to family, because usually you dont have that many children and this is a pretty particuliar case. Point 2 applies very well.
Giving your son this kind of punishment, gives them an immediate consecuence for his/her act. Otherwise, you can talk to them, sure, but they woudn't really feel the punishment, they would say "yeah, this is bad, but nothing happens if i do it, so i'll do it again", until they do that in some situation that they will get a consecuence way way worse than a little slap.
Nowadays, i think most fathers try to talk to their kids, but from my experience, it hasn't really worked:
For example, when i was 15 years old or so, my girlfriend, who was the daughter of a teacher, had a 6-8 year old "friend". One day, for some reason he started punching me. He wasn't playing, he hated me or something, At first, since i was way way stronger and bigger than him, and since he wasn't really hurting me because he, as a child, doesn't really hit that hard, I tried to talk to him "what are you doing? stop", "don't do that", "come on, stop it now". Even as i talked to him, or stepped back, he wound't stop to punch me. Until i grabbed him, pushed him to the wall with some force, and told him: "listen kid, I'm way stronger than you, stop it now!". Then he stopped.
I didn't hurt him, and didn't spank or slap him, but i did use strenght to get my point across. If i hadn't done that, he would have kept punching me or something. That made me think that their family, didn't teach him to respect others, or simply told him "you've got to repesct others" but never punished him when he didn't, they just talked it to him, and he wound't even listen. After I pushed him, he got it, he understood, and I can assure you he never dared to start punchin people (at least older people) since that day.
More or less at that time, i invited some friends to my house, and one of them bring his brother, who was like 3-4 years younger. Then suddenly, he started breaking things, and throwing stuff around and i was like "WTF". I told him to stop, obviosly he didn't, so i grabbed him and his stuff, and forcefully kicked him out of my house (i didn't physically kick him, i mean it like "took him" out of my house). I knew him, we were "kinda" friends before and we still were "kinda" friends after that.
Again, with that kid, their fathers failed myserably in teaching him to respect others, and the things that aren't yours. I'm sure i wasn't the first person to "suffer" from this kids lack of respect, but I can say that when i finally let him inside my house again, he respected everything and didn't break anything.
So my personal conclusion from all of this is the following:
Most of the time sending them to their room, and taking away his favourite toy for a day is enough to make them understand. But in some situations, and this varies from children to children, it is necesary to spank them, as long as it meets the following conditions:
1.-It must be done only, when it has a meaning. When it teaches a leason or make them understand something. It mustn't be because some bullshit argument like "because i say so".
2.-It must be done only and only if they didn't understand it with a talk or "softer" punishment. Violence should always be the last option.
3.-It must be done only with the hands. The use of belts, bats or other stuff must be avoided. It's not necessary.
4.-It must not be done with the intent of harming the children. This is about getting a point across, not hurting them. If you do spank them, you shall do it with minimum strenght, The pain should last a maximum of 1-2 minutes. If it last more, or causes bleed, or kills him, or it brakes his bones or causes marks in his/her body, it shouldn't be done. Again, this is about getting a point across, it should be a lesson. It shouldn't really hurt them.
5.-It mustn't be done often or repetitively.
So thats what i think. In a perfect, utopical world, spanking wouldn't be necessary, but in the real world here's the deal most childrens in most cases will understand with just talking and "soft" punishment, but for some kinds in some cases, i think its neccesary, as long as it meets the criteria above. Because with those kids, if you don't teach them, someone else will, and it could be way, way worse of a lesson than a little slap.
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Spanking only exacerbates the problems of adolescence imo. Some say "I was a bad kid and deserved it", which in my experience, simply defies logic. In my case I was a fucking hellion of a kid because of the spankings- and on top of that the bullying when I was an awkward, nerdy kid. A late bloomer, but once I sprouted, there was hell to pay, not least of all on my parents.
But it seems that some only care about what YOU want for your kids. That they are some sort of personal property that the government needs to lay off, or that you sired and gave birth to punchingbags. Some are selfish (no big surprise) and want or demand respect or load tons of stress on them to succeed. Respect is earned not demanded- the quickest way to lose that is to beat your kids. I simply want mine to know love, compassion, and happiness like the hippy I am. I think about their wants, needs and desires, not my own. Maybe I am just fattening up lambs to the slaughter, but I refuse to conform if this is all that matters... wealth.
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On September 21 2014 11:30 ZenithM wrote:
Let's at least agree on something. You do need sanctions and punishments of some sort with children right? You can't just go full on negotiating/argumenting and stuff, it doesn't work that way.
Whether it's okay for them to be of physical nature is debatable, but then again there are psychological warfare type of punishments that are probably much worse. What do you all feel is the best way to give a quick and efficient "don't do that" lesson to a child when you can't really argue? Or do you believe you can always argue? (Then good luck, you're in for a tough time :D).
Edit: Well, I'll just say it nonetheless, I'm against all types of physical punishment, spanking or whatever else, but I'm far from being a parent, so I don't really have any idea of what I could do if I'm out of arguments :D. Things like confiscating something, like a toy?
On this note I know of a child for which spanking does not work, as the child seeks attention and spanking = more attention. On the other hand, being locked in a room is a far greater punishment and the threat of that can work immediately. Every child is different and even within my own family, some of my siblings almost never got spanked due to being pretty good kids. Myself and my brother, on the other hand, were constantly pushing the boundaries and needed to be reminded. Explaining what was bad and why we shouldn't do it did NOT work with us, and I don't think anything other than spanking (or perhaps removal of computer rights when I got to about 10 maybe ) would have worked.
For any studies that show a correlation between aggressiveness and spanking, keep in mind the first rule of statistics: correlation does not imply causation. It could even be the other way around: aggressiveness might cause more spankings!
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one thing i am curious about:
with the majority of the world spanking their children and the majority of europe condemn that behaviour, how do you guys think we raise our children / we were raised? i mean, we all turned out pretty awesome. in fact, the generation who is born after 1980 is occasionally criticised in the media as "sticking too much to the rules". so without beating, we somehow created a whole generation who does behave extremely well for some odd reason. (as well as the aformentioned reduction in crime, violence and all that good stuff).
oh and i also think parents beating their children for not putting their toys away are fucking lunatics. why is it an important value to clean? to get laid? because thats for sure the only reason i thoroughly clean my place and it has been the only reason for ages. i feel like parents who spank their children dont questions their own beliefs and just take everything they think and value as universally true. hint: its not. dont press your beliefs on your children, let them develope their own sets.
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No, because it's illegal where I live I probably would've deserved it at times though =D
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Hell yeah I was spanked.
I remember my most famous spanking moment was on Christmas.
I started bitching and moaning because my parents bought me a PS2 with no games for Christmas. My dad spanked my ass. I can't remember how old I was, but I was probably already a teenager LOL.
After the ass whipping, we went to blockbuster (before it went out business) and rented some PS2 games. Lesson learned: Be thankful for getting a PS2 for Christmas. I was spoiled...
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On September 21 2014 11:07 FiWiFaKi wrote:OMG I MADE A TYPE IN THE POLL, WOOW... TOO* not TO... Sorry, I'm literate in stuff in English. Poll: In general. Does government play too large of a role in family life?Yes, wayy to big of a role. (11) 46% They should make more laws and enforce them. (8) 33% Just right the way it is. (3) 13% A little bit more than I'd like. (2) 8% 24 total votes Your vote: In general. Does government play too large of a role in family life? (Vote): Yes, wayy to big of a role.
(Vote): A little bit more than I'd like.
(Vote): Just right the way it is.
(Vote): They should make more laws and enforce them.
Imho the gov should have a much bigger play in the family. And by government I meant more control about how you raise your kid, there are so many shit parents everywhere they don't even deserve to have one.
Being good at making kids doesn't make you good at being a parent, far from that and that's why there are so many shitparents with 5+ kids just for the money and don't give a fuck about education for them. You really should pass tests to be able to procreate.
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On September 21 2014 17:00 Faust852 wrote:
Imho the gov should have a much bigger play in the family. And by government I meant more control about how you raise your kid, there are so many shit parents everywhere they don't even deserve to have one.
Being good at making kids doesn't make you good at being a parent, far from that and that's why there are so many shitparents with 5+ kids just for the money and don't give a fuck about education for them. You really should pass tests to be able to procreate.
Ugh man oh man that is a tough one for me. On one hand I agree with the general sentiment, on the other, I hold dear personal liberty and fear the slippery slope that would bring. It's a real grey area as much as I loathe the idea of child abuse of any sort. This alternative is almost as bad and open to abuse though- take the mind numbing medications we eagerly give hyperactive kids as example and apply the same logic to raising kids. Defective parenting could be seen in the same light as defective genetics in this neo Nazi world view/mentality. Some will argue only the rich should be allowed to procreate and judgement will continue to pass from there...
I find comfort believing that karma does exist. What these assholes do to their kids comes back to haunt them. A revised definition of child abuse could be palatable enough though.
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On September 21 2014 18:11 screamingpalm wrote:
I find comfort believing that karma does exist. What these assholes do to their kids comes back to haunt them.
sadly it is much more likely to come back to their grandkinds...
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On September 21 2014 19:03 Snotling wrote:
sadly it is much more likely to come back to their grandkinds...
How so? I'm genuinely curious, because I decided the abuse will end with me and will not be passing it on to my kids. My parents were pretty fucking harsh, but I was able to identify that as a problem. I do notice that some genes skip a generation however, my son reminds me too much of my dad in ways... I hope I can save him from being abusive.
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Netherlands6182 Posts
I was a really well behaved child, but I did get smacked once or twice, and I completely deserved it. The funny thing was that the physical pain never hurt me, it was knowing I had disappointed my parents enough to warrant a spanking, and when I did cry it was because of the guilt.
Anywho, back on topic.
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If you were a child, you certainly did not deserve to be smacked no matter what. Should note that to me, smacked means being hit in the face with an open hand, though I do not agree with spanking either. Do your parents deserve to have their faces punched in if they messed up on occasion? I'd be glad to help out with that.
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Netherlands6182 Posts
On September 21 2014 19:37 screamingpalm wrote:
If you were a child, you certainly did not deserve to be smacked no matter what. Should note that to me, smacked means being hit in the face with an open hand, though I do not agree with spanking either. Do your parents deserve to have their faces punched in if they messed up on occasion? I'd be glad to help out with that.
Smacked = spanked here. Slapped would be our term for being hit in the face.
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On September 21 2014 19:50 dravernor wrote:
Smacked = spanked here. Slapped would be our term for being hit in the face.
Fair enough I suppose, but if spanking is going to be so acceptable, I think the same punishment should apply to parents when they fuck up.
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It always amuses me that when you hit an adult in retaliation, it doesn't matter what they did, its absolutely wrong. But a minor transgression from a child and they deserve to receive what would be assault in any other context. What a great lesson.
I don't understand what you did as kids that was so horrible. I have seen kids be annoying and disobedient, but I honestly can't recall my kid doing anything that is particularly immoral. Were you burning houses down, and killing small animals? Even if you were I don't see how the super gentle tapping of the buttocks that is supposedly advocated here is appropriate punishment.
(I let mine be disobedient and annoying whenever they please, the consequence is not punishment but a lack of attention and approval. Kind of like what would happen in their life outside the home, madness, I know.)
Always the same with this debate, people post how they were terrible kids and needed to be spanked, and also, a spanking wasn't so bad. So if you were a terrible kid, despite being spanked, and you remember the punishment to not be bad, then how the hell do you conclude that spanking is effective and appropriate?
Safe the spanking for where it belongs in the modern age. In the bedroom between consenting adults.
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On September 21 2014 19:07 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 19:03 Snotling wrote:
sadly it is much more likely to come back to their grandkinds... How so? I'm genuinely curious, because I decided the abuse will end with me and will not be passing it on to my kids. My parents were pretty fucking harsh, but I was able to identify that as a problem. I do notice that some genes skip a generation however, my son reminds me too much of my dad in ways... I hope I can save him from being abusive.
It's often not the main behavior, but little, seemingly innocuous behaviors that get passed on. Like how your parents dealt with problems, or ideas of power (I guess), and that ends up assholes generating more assholes.
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I think most of the people against spanking (my definition of acceptable spanking is sudden and displacing more so than painful) have never had firsthand experience with teaching an unruly child. I'm all for reasoning, and rewarding positive behavior more so than punishing negative behavior, but anyone who's spent a lot of time around kids knows those two are not always enough, sometimes you have to surprise them to get their attention, and a good swat on the bum does just that.
The pain does not have to be strong to get the point across, and injuring them or drawing blood is definitely too far. I think a spanking should be accompanied by a loud, stern voice, but end with loving and nurturing words afterwards. Every time you should explain why they are being swatted.
Also the people that think children will never be unruly as long as you teach them perfectly from birth... Are delusional.
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On September 21 2014 20:38 Uncultured wrote:
I think most of the people against spanking (my definition of acceptable spanking is sudden and displacing more so than painful) have never had firsthand experience with teaching an unruly child. I'm all for reasoning, and rewarding positive behavior more so than punishing negative behavior, but anyone who's spent a lot of time around kids knows those two are not always enough, sometimes you have to surprise them to get their attention, and a good swat on the bum does just that.
On one hand you are correct that haven't spent a lot of time around unruly children. On the other, you are wrong to say that teaching them without physically harming them is not enough. I don't have to deal with unruly children because I don't beat them. I was one HELL of an unruly child, and the beatings were a slippery slope into that abyss. This is just in my experience as a stay-at-home-dad, but is a habit I formed since my kids were born. I don't need to raise my hand. I will admit to doing so with my first when she was very young, but I learned from it and am ashamed of it, and am not as close to her as my other children because of it. It is simply not necessary. How others raise their kids is ultimately up to them, but I sincerely urge everyone to at least consider alternatives to spanking. It weighs on my conscience, and hell, I barely even did it out of ignorance and what I knew passed down to me. I'm glad I decided to end that vicious cycle.
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For you unspanked kids - when you did something really bad, how did your parents punish you instead of spanking?
It would also be curious to know if there's a correlation between spanking and emotional abuse. I would guess it's probably positive, parents who don't spank are also less likely to put their kids down emotionally, but I'm curious.
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The main people to rationalize child abuse are always the kids that suffered from it. It's kinda sad.
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On September 21 2014 20:54 coverpunch wrote:
For you unspanked kids - when you did something really bad, how did your parents punish you instead of spanking?
It would also be curious to know if there's a correlation between spanking and emotional abuse. I would guess it's probably positive, parents who don't spank are also less likely to put their kids down emotionally, but I'm curious.
I don't remember doing really bad things, If I did something that I shouldn't do, my mother would told me not to do that and explain why, and I guess I was smart enough to understand. At worst I got grounded and I couldn't go to X event or play to Y for a while.
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On September 21 2014 20:54 coverpunch wrote:
For you unspanked kids - when you did something really bad, how did your parents punish you instead of spanking?
It would also be curious to know if there's a correlation between spanking and emotional abuse. I would guess it's probably positive, parents who don't spank are also less likely to put their kids down emotionally, but I'm curious.
My parents did not punish really. Sometimes I was sent to my room if I was being particularly difficult/unreasonable, and told to come back when I was ready to be more civil. I remember the worst was when I had video games taken from me. But I dont think that counts as punishment either, it was because my mother wanted me to go play outside with the other kids and socialize. If I didn't follow the rules and agreements we had made then I got nothing but disapproval/angry reactions, no punishment. If i refused to do something, my parents simply would insist that I do it, untill I finally did. I was probably not the easiest kid either. It was enough I geuss, whenever I did something actually bad, like minor vandalism or something, I made damn sure my parents did not ifnd out.
My mother did come out with the odd emotional abuse for a little while though (a year or 2). Threats of abandonment etc. One evening she convinced me that I was going to be taken away to an insitution for no apparent reason other than that she was angry with me, then sent me to bed. I was absolutely terrified and did not sleep that night. Though I love the woman on the whole, I feel nothing but disgust when I think of that. Very abusive and just completely unnecessary. Later she confessed that she was very sorry about it, so i sort of forgive her. My father actually punched me in anger once when i was like 12, but I get that sometimes people lose their temper and don't feel bitter about it. Atleast he did not systematically dominate and humiliate me through spanking.
As a parent I do not punish, no time-outs, no staying at the table untill you finish your plate, none of that, no threats of abandonment either, kid is fully briefed on my obligations as a parent. There are rules, and they are generally followed just fine, as part of a mostly reciprocal and harmonious albeit somewhat unequal relationship between two people, one of whom happens to be unable to lift a ketchup bottle.
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I was spanked as a kid Y_Y, I will try to never have children though, they are cocky little shits, so for me is not a problem rigth now...
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I'm from Europe, never been spanked for which I'm thankful to my parents, spanking is humiliating and degrading, won't ever spank my kids.
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i'm from europe and has never been spanked. i think that sort of practice has been condemned in my country for atleast 30-40 years along with societies change and government efforts
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(seemingly white/european) people talk about 'hand-on-ass' spanking, how does that even work/hurt? isn't that just slapping the butt?
i only ask because whenever i got spanked it was a belt, never really hand, and i dont see how hand would even hurt unless its a punch, but slaps?
either way, its pretty obvious to me that spanking, neurologically speaking, only has adverse effects and is simply never the best way to discipline a child. you might get results, short-term, but you are only doing harm all around, to the child, yourself, your spouse, child's siblings, etc...i dont see how this is a big debate. stupid people saying 'im better for it' is not an actual argument that refutes science (i.e. how the brain is affected by corporal punishment)...
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On September 21 2014 23:27 nath wrote:
(seemingly white/european) people talk about 'hand-on-ass' spanking, how does that even work/hurt? isn't that just slapping the butt?
i only ask because whenever i got spanked it was a belt, never really hand, and i dont see how hand would even hurt unless its a punch, but slaps?
either way, its pretty obvious to me that spanking, neurologically speaking, only has adverse effects and is simply never the best way to discipline a child. you might get results, short-term, but you are only doing harm all around, to the child, yourself, your spouse, child's siblings, etc...i dont see how this is a big debate. stupid people saying 'im better for it' is not an actual argument that refutes science (i.e. how the brain is affected by corporal punishment)...
When I typed "Spanking" on Google Image, it was a slap on the butt.
A slap just sting a bit and it's more the shame that come with it that is painful imho.
If you were hit by a belt, it's not spanking, it's beating the shit out of you. And it should be illegal.
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On September 21 2014 23:32 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 23:27 nath wrote:
(seemingly white/european) people talk about 'hand-on-ass' spanking, how does that even work/hurt? isn't that just slapping the butt?
i only ask because whenever i got spanked it was a belt, never really hand, and i dont see how hand would even hurt unless its a punch, but slaps?
either way, its pretty obvious to me that spanking, neurologically speaking, only has adverse effects and is simply never the best way to discipline a child. you might get results, short-term, but you are only doing harm all around, to the child, yourself, your spouse, child's siblings, etc...i dont see how this is a big debate. stupid people saying 'im better for it' is not an actual argument that refutes science (i.e. how the brain is affected by corporal punishment)... When I typed "Spanking" on Google Image, it was a slap on the butt. A slap just sting a bit and it's more the shame that come with it that is painful imho. If you were hit by a belt, it's not spanking, it's beating the shit out of you. And it should be illegal.
most of your reply is unneccessary and based on my post as a whole, you can clearly see that I understand this.
i was just asking about the semantics (i.e. what you mean by spanking). dictionary definitions dont mean anything to me as a non-white person, i just wanted to hear what people THOUGHT of spanking as meaning, so i can empathize/understand their posts better, and i was just saying that it looks like a lot of non-white people MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT when they use the word 'spanking'. not that i dont understand that beating with a belt is terrible.
edit: and if they do only mean slapping butt and guilt is primary tool of discipline, not pain, most africans and indians i know would not consider that 'spanking'; just in terms of what they think of when they think of spanking. i understand the dictionary dictates differently.
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On September 21 2014 23:27 nath wrote:
(seemingly white/european) people talk about 'hand-on-ass' spanking, how does that even work/hurt? isn't that just slapping the butt?
i only ask because whenever i got spanked it was a belt, never really hand, and i dont see how hand would even hurt unless its a punch, but slaps?
either way, its pretty obvious to me that spanking, neurologically speaking, only has adverse effects and is simply never the best way to discipline a child. you might get results, short-term, but you are only doing harm all around, to the child, yourself, your spouse, child's siblings, etc...i dont see how this is a big debate. stupid people saying 'im better for it' is not an actual argument that refutes science (i.e. how the brain is affected by corporal punishment)...
It works in a pretty intuitive way: your parent sits down, puts the kid on their leg, pulls down their pants, and slaps the butt. It hurts but doesn't do damage, but a good part of the pain is the knowledge that you are being punished. Depends on the parent and the kid, I guess. I was a pretty sensitive kid and I felt hurt and cried every time my parents spanked me.
You're right that spanking is a short term solution and it often teaches the child that problems should be dealt with aggression as much as it teaches the intended lesson to avoid or do certain behaviors. Hence such kids become much more likely to deal with their own problems with physical aggression and believe it solves the problem. These things are complex and not well understood so you can't say it is completely ineffective, but it does produce lots of bad and unintended consequences so it isn't worth it.
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For all the belt people, I will point out that "child abuse" became a thing in 1962 when radiologists in Colorado got X-rays of kids with broken radius and ulna bones (I.e. Broken bones in the forearms). The injuries were not consistent with falls or fighting but with being beaten by a much larger and stronger person, like a drunk dad beating them with a baseball bat. They published their results proving that intentional damage was being done to children and leading to horrific injuries, and within a decade, every US state passed child abuse laws with harsh punishments and mandatory reporting.
The more you know...
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that sounds almost hilarious (only because i experienced a terrible / 'actual' beating), i think kids used to the other kind of punishment (africans) would not be affected by this, but kids who are not (europeans), i can see it having guilt effects. thanks for sharing that. if you dont mind me asking you, when it felt like it hurt and you cried, was it mostly due to guilt? 50/50?
yeah I dont think it always breeds kids spanking (like me, i completely reject every aspect of that kind of punishment altogether) but definitely most of the time, it does. i think it is pretty well understood at this point in a lot of ways due to how fast neuroscience is evolving in the West.
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I don't think spanking has to be defined as slapping the butt. I think a better definition is any kind of mild, corporal punishment. I never got spanked by the first definition, but I did get slapped on the back of the head a few times.
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Its honestly one of the least effective forms of discipline and one of the most prevalent as well. It's a benign form of abuse, but that still doesn't make it not abuse.
EDIT: I should clarify that I live in the south of the U.S. where this is really common and people don't see anything wrong with "it". By "it" I mean with a belt, with a spoon, with a hand, anything. I've had conversations with people about this ranging from very wealthy people to very poor people and the same mentality - that it somehow teaches kids to respect whatever needs to be respected - is prevalent.
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I was spanked. But there's a line drawn, I don't think most people consider beating your child until he(she?) bleeds spanking. That's a little extreme, but spanking can definitely be warranted.
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On September 22 2014 02:15 Alryk wrote:
I was spanked. But there's a line drawn, I don't think most people consider beating your child until he(she?) bleeds spanking. That's a little extreme, but spanking can definitely be warranted.
Exactly. The most i could warrant from a "spanking" is a red tan mark. Bruising, bleeding, objects (belt? wtf?) are all just beating an innocent child...Anything that causes more pain than a sting for a couple of minutes is way out of fucking line.
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I should say this thread reminds me of this controversy about the reading of an obscene poem dealing with homosexuality. This reading happened in Finland, where homosexuality was illegal at the time.
The debate seemed to boil down to the question of which words could be allowed in public-service radio.
As opposed to reflecting on their awful attitude towards homosexuality and the desire to censor free expression, the debate frequently centered on the utterly inane policy question of what should be on the list of bad words.
I think this discussion has some similarities. Instead of the policy question of what should be the exact amount of physical force you should use on your children, or what equivalent alternatives there are in case you want to punish your children, I think it's better to look at the larger question of the high incidence of dysfunctional parenting, and to ask ourselves about our cultural expectation to give parents complete control over their children.
You can construct a saintly woman that nevertheless spanks her children lightly with perfect intent, and an awful woman that never touches her children but is completely cruel (or even inconsistent/unclear) in other ways. Arguing over random examples is really besides the point, I think more interesting is that it's always conservatives with authority fixations that are concerned with bans on spanking, much like how it's always the same people that obsess about family values that create very hierarchical family structures.
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well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business)
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On September 22 2014 02:15 Alryk wrote:
I was spanked. But there's a line drawn, I don't think most people consider beating your child until he(she?) bleeds spanking. That's a little extreme, but spanking can definitely be warranted.
Ok so according to you, I can slap my kid as often and as hard as I want as long as he/she doesn't bleed? Srsly?
Spanking is beating your kid and it is never warrented. It also has possible psychological backlashes.
We teach children not to hit other children, yet it is acceptable that we, as the ultimate rolemodel, hit them?
It is violence towards somebody, who can't leave, who can't defend themselves and who didn't even chose to be there.
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On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business)
Haha, true that.
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On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that.
Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical.
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On September 22 2014 04:20 DrCooper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 02:15 Alryk wrote:
I was spanked. But there's a line drawn, I don't think most people consider beating your child until he(she?) bleeds spanking. That's a little extreme, but spanking can definitely be warranted. Ok so according to you, I can slap my kid as often and as hard as I want as long as he/she doesn't bleed? Srsly? Spanking is beating your kid and it is never warrented. It also has possible psychological backlashes. We teach children not to hit other children, yet it is acceptable that we, as the ultimate rolemodel, hit them? It is violence towards somebody, who can't leave, who can't defend themselves and who didn't even chose to be there.
This same logic can be argued about ANY punishment.
So a child misbehaves, and you take away a toy or something without their permission. Yet you teach the child to not take your things without your permission.
Everything has possible psychological backlashes. I find it very hard to believe that if spanking was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common.
On September 22 2014 04:37 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that. Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical.
All punishments can do that.
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On September 22 2014 04:39 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:20 DrCooper wrote:On September 22 2014 02:15 Alryk wrote:
I was spanked. But there's a line drawn, I don't think most people consider beating your child until he(she?) bleeds spanking. That's a little extreme, but spanking can definitely be warranted. Ok so according to you, I can slap my kid as often and as hard as I want as long as he/she doesn't bleed? Srsly? Spanking is beating your kid and it is never warrented. It also has possible psychological backlashes. We teach children not to hit other children, yet it is acceptable that we, as the ultimate rolemodel, hit them? It is violence towards somebody, who can't leave, who can't defend themselves and who didn't even chose to be there. This same logic can be argued about ANY punishment. So a child misbehaves, and you take away a toy or something without their permission. Yet you teach the child to not take your things without your permission. Everything has possible psychological backlashes. I find it very hard to believe that if spanking was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common.
Have you ever read any literature from before ~1950? Society wasn't that great in the past.
There is so much horrific abuse that has largely been rooted out and it's partly because of getting rid of this insane idea that children (and wives and slaves) are property of whoever is boss.
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On September 21 2014 13:12 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 12:33 Carwash wrote:
"How can I get this child to respect me??? Ahhh yes, violence!!!"
Thats all a child 8 and under will really understand in the heat of the moment. If they're in the middle of misbehaving, you can throw all the rhetoric you want at them, it will not do any good. Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 12:49 darthfoley wrote:
Never got spanked, turned out fine and have discipline and toughness. Don't see the need Just because you were a saint of a child doesn't mean every child is.
No. My point: part of the reason I became a mature adult and the person I am today, is because I was taught from a young age that violence doesn't solve problems-- no matter who is doing it.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 21 2014 20:54 coverpunch wrote:
For you unspanked kids - when you did something really bad, how did your parents punish you instead of spanking?
It would also be curious to know if there's a correlation between spanking and emotional abuse. I would guess it's probably positive, parents who don't spank are also less likely to put their kids down emotionally, but I'm curious.
My father grabbed my wrist and stared at me with his "don't push it"-eyes. He wouldn't yell, he definitely wouldn't hit me, and that combination frightened me a lot more than just a slap on the butt would have, I think. Just him grabbing my wrists would make me realize I'd crossed some boundary (even if I sometimes thought I was one witty little fucker), and it'd make me cry more often than not.
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
On September 22 2014 04:56 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 20:54 coverpunch wrote:
For you unspanked kids - when you did something really bad, how did your parents punish you instead of spanking?
It would also be curious to know if there's a correlation between spanking and emotional abuse. I would guess it's probably positive, parents who don't spank are also less likely to put their kids down emotionally, but I'm curious. My father grabbed my wrist and stared at me with his "don't push it"-eyes. He wouldn't yell, he definitely wouldn't hit me, and that combination frightened me a lot more than just a slap on the butt would have, I think. Just him grabbing my wrists would make me realize I'd crossed some boundary (even if I sometimes thought I was one witty little fucker), and it'd make me cry more often than not.
My parents never really had any trouble with me, they could usually talk seriously with me and it would get to me. But in a similar fashion my parents would hold on to me tight if I didn't something really bad.
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On September 22 2014 04:39 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:20 DrCooper wrote:On September 22 2014 02:15 Alryk wrote:
I was spanked. But there's a line drawn, I don't think most people consider beating your child until he(she?) bleeds spanking. That's a little extreme, but spanking can definitely be warranted. Ok so according to you, I can slap my kid as often and as hard as I want as long as he/she doesn't bleed? Srsly? Spanking is beating your kid and it is never warrented. It also has possible psychological backlashes. We teach children not to hit other children, yet it is acceptable that we, as the ultimate rolemodel, hit them? It is violence towards somebody, who can't leave, who can't defend themselves and who didn't even chose to be there. This same logic can be argued about ANY punishment. So a child misbehaves, and you take away a toy or something without their permission. Yet you teach the child to not take your things without your permission. Everything has possible psychological backlashes. I find it very hard to believe that if spanking was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common.Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:37 Grumbels wrote:On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that. Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical. All punishments can do that.
Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't mean its worth keeping around. Some traditions are worth getting rid of. We survived the millennia in spite of a lot of really stupid/barbaric/illogical stuff doesn't mean that stuff was worth holding onto.
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"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong.
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Hunter/gatherers dont do corporal punishment for children and they survived that way much longer than us farmers.
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On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong.
You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions.
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On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions.
Nobody had any trouble recognising that as an opinion, but thanks for reminding us that opinions are allowed.
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On September 22 2014 05:25 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. Nobody had any trouble recognising that as an opinion, but thanks for reminding us that opinions are allowed.
I simply think it's unhealthy to argue in a way that both sides try to argue their points as governing laws of the universe. Not to mention it's unproductive since nobody's opinion has potential to get swayed, regardless of what facts are presented.
You can clearly see in this thread, there are many people who have been spanked, and feel they were better for it, or at the very least, not worse.
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Hong Kong9154 Posts
spanking ceased being a thing once i grew old enough to reason
ive been slapped once since then, but i sure as fuck deserved it
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
got my ass beat by a dictionary from my dad once, but looking back on what i did to make him that angry im amazed he didnt murder me.
not advocating beating kids in anyway, but damn did i deserve it lol
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On September 22 2014 05:32 MrHoon wrote:
got my ass beat by a dictionary from my dad once, but looking back on what i did to make him that angry im amazed he didnt murder me.
not advocating beating kids in anyway, but damn did i deserve it lol
Please do share.
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IMO it's fine so long as the goal is not to cause pain, but to teach that something is worng/bad. Shouldn't leave anything more than a slight red mark if that, it's the action that matters.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On September 22 2014 05:33 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:32 MrHoon wrote:
got my ass beat by a dictionary from my dad once, but looking back on what i did to make him that angry im amazed he didnt murder me.
not advocating beating kids in anyway, but damn did i deserve it lol Please do share.
rather not but trust me if my kid did the same to me im pretty sure even a grand beating with pillow would be lethal
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On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions.
we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents!
what the fuck...
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On September 22 2014 05:29 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:25 Crushinator wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. Nobody had any trouble recognising that as an opinion, but thanks for reminding us that opinions are allowed. I simply think it's unhealthy to argue in a way that both sides try to argue their points as governing laws of the universe. Not to mention it's unproductive since nobody's opinion has potential to get swayed, regardless of what facts are presented. You can clearly see in this thread, there are many people who have been spanked, and feel they were better for it, or at the very least, not worse.
Yes and I think most of those people are clearly wrong. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.
This is how internet forums work, idiots post their idiotic opinions and then I post my awesome opinion and we have a slightly less than civil discussion overseen by moderators, all of whom are not you.
User was warned for this post
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Yes, I was spanked, albeit seldomly.
I do not advocate spanking a child in any circumstance whatsoever. There are other methods of disciplining a child aside from physical, emotional, and psychological abuse. There is not a reason, nor will there ever be a reason for hitting a defenseless child.
Most of the punishments involving spanking are due to some disobedience on the part of the child. Physical abuse, including spanking, has been shown to increase risk of displaying behaviors which most parents would disapprove of, for example cheating, lying and bullying. This is likely to make spanking a recurring event as the parent wishes to punish the child for acting in such a way, but in reality the more spanking there is, the higher statistical chance there is of negative behavior in the future!
If you're so inclined, here is a largely objective analysis on this subject.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck...
This might not be as unpopular an opinion as you think. Its pretty shocking from a European perspective.
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On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck...
Respect always has an element of fear to it.
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On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it.
That clearly isn't true. I could send you a huge list of people I respect but do not fear in the slightest, but I won't.
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On September 22 2014 05:48 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... This might not be as unpopular an opinion as you think. Its pretty shocking from a European perspective.
I was born in europe, and spanked in europe. You are generalizing europe way too much imo, but anyway.
Again, I'll reiterate what I said. I don't think it's something that has a severe impact, whether it's better or worse. There are different methods, but spanking is one of them. If it's just the spanking that was discussed, when it's not to create pain and teach the child, not done out of rage, it's going to make minimal impact on a child.
Abusive parents yes, can leave a long lasting effect on their children, and that's a universal thought.
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On September 22 2014 06:24 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it. That clearly isn't true. I could send you a huge list of people I respect but do not fear in the slightest, but I won't.
I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect.
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On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it.
Yes, asserting physical dominance over kids that still have their milk-teeth really shows strength of character.
I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect.
parents are not supposed to be police officers, especially not American ones.
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On September 22 2014 06:28 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:48 Crushinator wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... This might not be as unpopular an opinion as you think. Its pretty shocking from a European perspective. I was born in europe, and spanked in europe. You are generalizing europe way too much imo, but anyway.
I meant civilized, sorry for the confusion.
On September 22 2014 06:30 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect.
There is some fear there when I talk to a police officer, because he/she might hurt me if he/she feels like I crossed some line. But I don't know if I have much respect for the police. My default mode for them is one of suspicion and apprehension, because I know they are not my friends and could possibly hurt me no good reason. I had no respect at all for my old school principal, but that is a personal thing. I don't know if repsect and fear are all that related to be honest.
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On September 22 2014 06:35 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:28 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:48 Crushinator wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... This might not be as unpopular an opinion as you think. Its pretty shocking from a European perspective. I was born in europe, and spanked in europe. You are generalizing europe way too much imo, but anyway. I meant civilized, sorry for the confusion.
That's quite rude. Plenty of places in europe where people get spanked and are civilized. Slovakia for example.
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On September 22 2014 06:41 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:35 Crushinator wrote:On September 22 2014 06:28 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:48 Crushinator wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... This might not be as unpopular an opinion as you think. Its pretty shocking from a European perspective. I was born in europe, and spanked in europe. You are generalizing europe way too much imo, but anyway. I meant civilized, sorry for the confusion. That's quite rude. Plenty of places in europe where people get spanked and are civilized. Slovakia for example.
I apologize to the barbarians of Slovakia.
jk
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As someone without children, I actually don't think I can post here. I actually think having a child is a prerequisite to this discussion because while I've tried to fathom every possible scenario I'm not sure how I would react in 100 different scenarios or what might push me to snap. The one thing you have to remember is children aren't reasonable or rational. So it's extremely difficult to judge.
I would just say most parents should have a lot of patience and understanding and think all of their actions through. I think I could always think of some other action to change the situation.
My naive side says I could always reason or outsmart the child to make it grow up into a respectable person eventually. But, I actually don't know. I don't think light spanking is a big deal though. Enough to hurt but not enough to bruise or bleed. Plus, yelling is more effective. The voice is a great resource. I scare the shit out of my team mates, I'm sure I could terrify my child! (I wouldn't actually do that though). ;p
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On September 22 2014 06:35 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it. Yes, asserting physical dominance over kids that still have their milk-teeth really shows strength of character. Show nested quote +I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect. parents are not supposed to be police officers, especially not American ones.
Physical dominance is often the only thing a child will understand in the heat of the moment.
What do you do when your 5 year old is in the process of stuffing the contents of your wallet down the garbage disposal? Do you try to explain why that is not a wise course of action, or do you physically stop him?
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On September 22 2014 07:04 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:35 Nyxisto wrote:On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it. Yes, asserting physical dominance over kids that still have their milk-teeth really shows strength of character. I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect. parents are not supposed to be police officers, especially not American ones. Physical dominance is often the only thing a child will understand in the heat of the moment. What do you do when your 5 year old is in the process of stuffing the contents of your wallet down the garbage disposal? Do you try to explain why that is not a wise course of action, or do you physically stop him?
Never thought I'd see the ticking time bomb scenario applied to spanking of all things. *Jack Bauer voice* "If you don't spank your child RIGHT NOW millions of people WILL DIE!"
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On September 22 2014 07:04 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:35 Nyxisto wrote:On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it. Yes, asserting physical dominance over kids that still have their milk-teeth really shows strength of character. I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect. parents are not supposed to be police officers, especially not American ones. Physical dominance is often the only thing a child will understand in the heat of the moment. What do you do when your 5 year old is in the process of stuffing the contents of your wallet down the garbage disposal? Do you try to explain why that is not a wise course of action, or do you physically stop him?
Well of course you physically stop them but that is not equivalent to hitting the child!
In the case where there was malicious intent, and it wasn't brought on by the parent in a number of obvious ways (say the child is just a sociopath in the making), at least in my mind I can't see how hitting the child makes him/her a better person. Typically abuse fosters more abuse; they start to think that hitting people who do the wrong thing is a good way to solve a problem.
In those cases there are more reasonable punishments that would work; depriving the child of certain rights or meals; there are gentler punishments that should do the job.
I think its just like how we don't use corporeal punishment in modern day justice. We simply separate people from society, try to reform them, but still make an effort to treat them humanely. Why should the opposite logic be followed in the rearing of children, when it isn't applied to adults? Also caning kids in school must be a thing of the past for a good reason, I think people realized that it was an unnecessarily brutal way of dealing with a problem; psychologists and educators have likely come to the conclusion that it causes more problems than it solves.
Either that or they just felt it was too brutal and had no place in modern society; which I'd agree with. I feel like this could be seen as a human rights issue, in that people have the right to be free from physical violence unless someone is acting in self-defense.
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On September 22 2014 06:50 SK.Testie wrote:The one thing you have to remember is children aren't reasonable or rational.
Precisely the reason why spanking is an irrational punishment. If children aren't reasonable, nor rational, why should they be expected to be able to reason the causality of their punishments?
Physical abuse in any form is immoral and irrational, with the sole possible exception of killing things that spread disease such as mosquitos and rats.
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Physically injuring your child is fine, but physically injuring your girlfriend is wrong because......................
On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Often respect has a fear aspect.
Lmao what the fuck is this shit?? Plenty of people respect me, but I'm sure not a single one of them fears me. We' aren't talking about Stalinesque figures here, we''re talking about average people.
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There's a difference between spanking and causing injury. Properly done, it won't hurt more than a little sting.
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On September 22 2014 08:36 Millitron wrote:
There's a difference between spanking and causing injury. Properly done, it won't hurt more than a little sting.
Yes you're hurting your child when you spank them, thanks for clearing that up. I'm just gonna slap my GF now, but don't worry, I just wanna sting her a bit to let her know who the alpha male is.
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On September 22 2014 07:04 Millitron wrote:
What do you do when your 5 year old is in the process of stuffing the contents of your wallet down the garbage disposal? Do you try to explain why that is not a wise course of action, or do you physically stop him?
I'd take the wallet out of his hands and tell him to not do that again. Sweden, where corporal punishment of all forms has been banned have successfully protected their wallets since '79.
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http://www.dogfoodinsider.com/negative-reinforcement-dog-training.html
If it was so effective then why isn't it always used in dog training?
"...since all negative reinforcement, by definition, includes a punisher, making a practice of using negative reinforcement puts you at risk for all the unpredictable fallout of punishment: avoidance, secrecy, fear, confusion, resistance, passivity, and reduced initiative, as well as spillover associations, in which anything that happens to be around, including the training environment and the trainer, becomes distasteful or disliked, something to be avoided or even fled from. "
Talking about dogs again. It makes spanking seem pretty risky, right?
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On September 22 2014 07:04 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:35 Nyxisto wrote:On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it. Yes, asserting physical dominance over kids that still have their milk-teeth really shows strength of character. I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect. parents are not supposed to be police officers, especially not American ones. Physical dominance is often the only thing a child will understand in the heat of the moment. What do you do when your 5 year old is in the process of stuffing the contents of your wallet down the garbage disposal? Do you try to explain why that is not a wise course of action, or do you physically stop him?
What the actual fuck? Going to ignore the "Respect always has an element of fear to it" bit and instead concentrate on how youthink preventing a 5 year old from throwing away a wallet is apparently now a deliberate act to cause fear for your crazy notion of respect. Do you even read what you wrote?
Actually scrap that. "Respect always has an element of fear to it" is plenty of crazy all by itself.
Btw Carwash, you need to make sure who you are quoting when editting lol.
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Yes I was spanked not often, but enough born and raised in Ohio. I have a 3 year old and I spank him as does his Thai mother, but only after a verbal warning, followed by small punishment like standing in the corner or his favorite toy being locked up, if he still persist in his action or doesn't stay in the corner after being warned he will be spanked then he is spanked, with a bare hand by me, his mother uses a comb when he is really bad but never hard enough to make whelps or markings.
I also always keep my word, if I tell him he will be spanked if he doesn't stop, once I say this if he continues I keep my word and spank him. His mother not so much, she will threaten, then call me.
Most discipline comes when he is mean to his disabled twin brother. An example Jacob my disabled son will have a toy, his brother sees it and comes take it from him. I tell Junior to give it back, he doesn't he runs instead. I will follow him take it from him, tell him to stand in the other room. He then comes back in the room grabs the toy again, he is then spanked. After this he will cry, run to his brother and hug him. I never have to spank him more than once.
I could never use a switch to spank my son even though I was switched, I had to choose my own and then take the leaves off myself.
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On September 22 2014 07:27 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 07:04 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 06:35 Nyxisto wrote:On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it. Yes, asserting physical dominance over kids that still have their milk-teeth really shows strength of character. I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect. parents are not supposed to be police officers, especially not American ones. Physical dominance is often the only thing a child will understand in the heat of the moment. What do you do when your 5 year old is in the process of stuffing the contents of your wallet down the garbage disposal? Do you try to explain why that is not a wise course of action, or do you physically stop him? Well of course you physically stop them but that is not equivalent to hitting the child! In the case where there was malicious intent, and it wasn't brought on by the parent in a number of obvious ways (say the child is just a sociopath in the making), at least in my mind I can't see how hitting the child makes him/her a better person. Typically abuse fosters more abuse; they start to think that hitting people who do the wrong thing is a good way to solve a problem. In those cases there are more reasonable punishments that would work; depriving the child of certain rights or meals; there are gentler punishments that should do the job. I think its just like how we don't use corporeal punishment in modern day justice. We simply separate people from society, try to reform them, but still make an effort to treat them humanely. Why should the opposite logic be followed in the rearing of children, when it isn't applied to adults? Also caning kids in school must be a thing of the past for a good reason, I think people realized that it was an unnecessarily brutal way of dealing with a problem; psychologists and educators have likely come to the conclusion that it causes more problems than it solves. Either that or they just felt it was too brutal and had no place in modern society; which I'd agree with. I feel like this could be seen as a human rights issue, in that people have the right to be free from physical violence unless someone is acting in self-defense.
Really you would rather deprive your child of a meal than spank them?
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Main punishment as a child, and got whipped with a thick leather belt.
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On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it.
Fear of disappointment versus fear of getting your ass beat are two totally different things.
I will say that I was raised in an environment where corporal punishment was used extensively. Most of the punishments utilized by both my mother and father would have easily landed them in jail today. I was a real fucked up individual up to about 3 years ago when I finally resolved my differences with my parents and just accepted them for who they are (both who lived in a totally different society that had different cultural norms before coming to America).
I myself would never personally condone corporal punishment, ever. It is too easy for a parent to get carried away if they lose their temper. It causes such an extensive amount of emotional damage that it is absolutely unreal. Everyone makes mistakes, and it is very easy to get carried away when you are disappointed with your child.
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Canada11355 Posts
I came back to respond to the question "How were you punished for doing really bad things as a child if you weren't spanked?"
I can't quite remember doing anything really terrible as a child. I tried to drive my dad's pickup once as a very young child but didn't figure out how to start it but succeeded in putting it into neutral somehow. Obviously my parents aren't awful and noticed this right away, pulled me from the car, stopped it and sent me to my room. After everyone calmed down I they both came and talked to me, I can't remember what they said but if I had to render a guess it was something along the lines of "Driving is not for children, you could have been hurt *cue crying* could have died etc" maybe I'll ask them next time I see them and report back here. My memory is terrible
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Alright, so I have been seeing a lot of people trying to quote the "Respect always has an element of fear to it." and state that they in their personal experiences have never seen anything remotely close to that being true. I figured since my own opinion was met with the same sort of responses, I'd ask someone with a great deal more worldly experience. The person I chose is one of the most respected Grandmasters of all time across many disciplines. He is one of the most decorated and accomplished martial artists of all time in addition to being the heir to the Presidency of the World Taekwondo Federation and World Martial Arts core and in my opinion this more than qualified him to answer regarding this issue.
His words were as follows (paraphrased slightly to correct english): "Respect most certainly has an element of fear to it. That fear is not necessarily of a physical beating, but moreso the possibilities that might occur if they were to face me. Many of my opponents feared and respected me. I do not aim for my students to fear me, but if I must instill some fear in them to make them understand an important life lesson, it is of course necessary to do so. Discipline is something that must be hammered into an individual like a smith creating a masterful sword. The process is a constant burning and hammering until that person is a work of art." -Grandmaster Byong Yu
Granted, this is the martial artists' viewpoint of it, but it is also my view and one I hold to be true. The legendary people of history are usually not handed an easy life. It is one of hardship and constant discipline, but it ends up with them achieving such incredible things we can admire and wonder how they managed to do it.
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Once that I remember, my mother said I laughed at her while she was doing it the last time and she never tried again.
I have spanked my kids in the past and under certain circumstances would do it again. Generally a stern look is all I need to stop behavioral issues, then follow it up with a little talk.
My ex-wife used to yell and scream and spank at them over every tiny thing, used to piss me off so much. Was probably what we fought about the most, so glad she is out of my life now if only the courts would grant me full custody so I could get her out of my kid's life.
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I'm surprised so many people voted "yes" to the asia one... My parents just hit me with a stick when I was growing up, wtf is a spank you know?
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i was spanked as a child sometimes. it wasnt seldom but it wasnt regular either. every time i did something that called for a harsher punishment i would get spanked (or more accurately, hit with a stick)
most of it was on my hands, sometimes enough to make it bruise
but i have without a doubt in my mind that i deserved that punishment and it was the right way to discipline me. i never feared my parents for one second and i never harboured any negative feelings for them as a result of the physical punishment.
in my opinion those feelings only appear if the child feels unsafe or unloved even when he does the right things, and if that is the case then corporal punishment is the least of your problems. but in my case, i knew that my parents loved me and cared for me and wanted the best for me unconditionally, so i never doubted their intentions for smacking me when i did wrong things.
when i was young this would help me make the right decisions, as it made me fear the stick, but not my parents. and as i grew older id ask questions and seek answers as to why those decisions are right or wrong, and i respected my parents' answers because i know they would never lead me to a path that is bad for me.
when i have kids i will definitely use corporal punishment if i have to. its not going to be something i enjoy or something ill look forward to, but if it must be done as a last resort then i would do it. if my child grows to fear me as a person and feels unsafe in my home, then i refuse to believe corporal punishment is the reason. the reason kids fear their parents is because they dont feel their love even when they do the all the right things.
just my 2 cents on corporal punishment
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
never got spanked because i was an awesome kid
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Without getting too much into the debate, if there is anyone out there who would like to avoid smacking or hitting their child but isn't sure how to be an effective parent without it, I recommend the book 'Unconditional Parenting' by Alfie Kohn. Unlike a lot of parenting gurus he actually makes a big effort to understand the research - the bibliography runs to several pages, mostly references to journal articles and research.
Parenting isn't something that's taught in schools, and for many of us the only example we have is the way our parents raised us. Since becoming a parent, one thing I've learned is that we all worry that we are screwing it up. Trying to do things differently from our own parents can sometimes feel like heading off into the unknown without a map. Books can help, and so can talking to like-minded people.
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On September 22 2014 06:30 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:24 Crushinator wrote:On September 22 2014 06:17 Millitron wrote:On September 22 2014 05:40 hfglgg wrote:On September 22 2014 05:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 22 2014 05:11 Nyxisto wrote:
"I find it very hard to believe that if homophobia was so bad, that society survived the millennia where it was common".
As the guy above pointed out you can literally say this about thousands of stupid practises that, in some parts of the world, just won't die off. It's actually ridiculous how many nonsense is still going around, one of them is thinking you can educate your children by causing them pain or humiliation.
Your home is supposed to be a save haven. You're not supposed to be scared of your parents, and if you think you need to scare your kids to teach them discipline you're doing it wrong. You're offering an opinion and stating it as a fact. It's fine if you think that's the right way, but people are allowed to have differing opinions. we did it boys! we have the first guy actually saying that children should be scared of their parents! what the fuck... Respect always has an element of fear to it. That clearly isn't true. I could send you a huge list of people I respect but do not fear in the slightest, but I won't. I agree that it doesn't always. But very often it is the case... Just like when people talk to police, there's often some fear there. You respect the principal of a school since you don't know exactly what they could do to you. Often respect has a fear aspect.
i don't respect police because i fear them; i respect (some) police officers because they take on a difficult and dangerous role from a sense of solidarity with, and compassion for, their fellow man.
Respecting a person for the quality of their character is completely different than respecting the ability of a person to do you harm.
Real respect is to coerced respect as sex is to rape.
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Whether you people want to correctly identify things or not, respect is a form of hierarchical structure and discipline. Without these qualities, it is not respect, but admiration that you describe. One does not "respect" police because they have weapons and can inflict adverse consequences on your life. You can "admire" them because you like what they do and how they do it. To respect something means you do not tread on it because there are consequences for doing so. It may not be a physical consequence, but there must be consequences for disrespectful or harmful actions. However, a physical consequence is by far the most commonly understood.
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On September 22 2014 08:36 Millitron wrote:
There's a difference between spanking and causing injury. Properly done, it won't hurt more than a little sting.
So what's your plan the child starts to ignore it because it's just a little sting? Cause the only two options I see increasing the severity leading to abuse or trying different methods. Which begs the question why weren't those methods used instead of physical punishment in the first place.
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My dad's dad beat him with a belt. My dad spanked me as a punishment until he accidentally slapped my lower back quite hard, and then he stopped. At that point they switched to "counting to 3" when I was being a shithead, and if it got to three, I lost privileges.
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On September 22 2014 15:00 sCCrooked wrote:
Whether you people want to correctly identify things or not, respect is a form of hierarchical structure and discipline. Without these qualities, it is not respect, but admiration that you describe. One does not "respect" police because they have weapons and can inflict adverse consequences on your life. You can "admire" them because you like what they do and how they do it. To respect something means you do not tread on it because there are consequences for doing so. It may not be a physical consequence, but there must be consequences for disrespectful or harmful actions. However, a physical consequence is by far the most commonly understood.
Nah, you will respect your neighbours or your waiters because it's a good thing to do, not because you admire them. If you experimented kindness from others, you know it's a great feeling and it helps though the day, so if you are kind and respectful to others, they'll be respectful to you. You don't need to be feared to be respected.
Respect and authority is 2 differents things. A guy who got beaten by his parents might accept their authority easier, but they definitly won't respect them for the major part. Just read a bunch of comments here where people were hit and they cut the link with their parents because of that.
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On September 22 2014 16:05 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:00 sCCrooked wrote:
Whether you people want to correctly identify things or not, respect is a form of hierarchical structure and discipline. Without these qualities, it is not respect, but admiration that you describe. One does not "respect" police because they have weapons and can inflict adverse consequences on your life. You can "admire" them because you like what they do and how they do it. To respect something means you do not tread on it because there are consequences for doing so. It may not be a physical consequence, but there must be consequences for disrespectful or harmful actions. However, a physical consequence is by far the most commonly understood. Nah, you will respect your neighbours or your waiters because it's a good thing to do, not because you admire them. If you experimented kindness from others, you know it's a great feeling and it helps though the day, so if you are kind and respectful to others, they'll be respectful to you. You don't need to be feared to be respected. Respect and authority is 2 differents things. A guy who got beaten by his parents might accept their authority easier, but they definitly won't respect them for the major part. Just read a bunch of comments here where people were hit and they cut the link with their parents because of that.
And I also read a lot of comments stating that they felt it was justified, more than the ones who cut ties.
And it's very likely a lot of people that cut ties with their parents, were abused and beat, not spanked... So they don't understand what spanking like some of us others have experienced.
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I think my parents worked more with positive reinforcement rather than threatening with violence if I messed up. If I did something bad they would just tell me they were disappointed and that would hurt more than any belt would :p
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My dad's spanks were so soft that they weren't even painful. He tells me that in fact, while he was "spanking me", I was laughing more than anything. I can't remember if I was actually laughing but I definitely don't have any memory of it being painful.
But when I did something wrong, he looked so angry and scary that I had to learn my lesson and to obey. I think that was a great way to handle things, but it seems like it required an incredible amount of self-control when I compare it to some of the stories here.
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On September 22 2014 04:37 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that. Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical.
how is that cynicism?; that's just a simple case of choosing the lesser evil and it works exactly like that for toddlers. they respond more/better to psychological punishments and less to physical ones because those(the former) hurt the most, because those are more damaging.
you are abusing/damaging your kids by not spanking them.
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For some the respect of the police might also be connected to the respect of the law, which in turn might be connected to a respect princip that if you respected and keep the law, the law will also protect you.
You oversimplify what respect is, it's different from admiration (in how I see it) and it's also different from fear. I'd claim that you can make someone respect you without either makign them fear or admire you. You could also argue that respect doesn't naturally come from hierachical structures, but from when people are equal and view eachother as that. That there's some consequence seems redundant to mention, no matter if you're respected by someone or not, your actions are gonna have some kind of consequence, whether it reinforces the view they had of you before or makes that someone see you in a new light, anything you do with this person will have an effect.
Physical consequence being the most commonly understood as punishment also seems... inaccurate. If we go back on topic, a child might do something bad to be physically punished, if they learn that it's a mean of getting their parents attention, especially if there's issues, a child will often do "naughty" and "disrespectful" things just to receive attention, whether this attention they get will be a slap or a shout.
From how I see it, words (especially to YOUR child) are the best way of making sure that you sent the message to want to send, simply because you have more ways to express yourself than if you spank / hit someone.
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On September 20 2014 14:56 Shebuha wrote:
I got spanked less than 5 times when I was a kid. I only got spanked when I dun goofed hard and it was only one smack... Then I got a talking to which was always way worse for some reason.
We are similar in this regard
Also my parents soon found that limiting video game usage was far more effective XD
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I think corporal punishment is effective in certain circumstances. Darting out into a busy parking lot, right before they touch a hot stove/fireplace, stuff like that. Situations where the pain from disobedience is far worse than the slap (beating is never ok or effective).
It might work, it might not, but I would much rather deal with slapping a child's hand/ass to let them know disobedience in such an instance is painful, than dealing with a run over/burnt child.
That's not to say they don't need or deserve the conversation/explanation about why, but putting a kid in timeout for darting into a parking lot before grocery shopping is rarely practical or any more likely to prevent it (especially on the way out) than a quick swat with whatever verbal/privilege related discipline would be appropriate.
Of course if you spank your kid every time they disobey it wouldn't be very effective, but I don't think spanking is never appropriate.
Different kids have different temperaments completely independent of parenting. I would agree that most kids in the vast majority of instances don't need (or benefit from) spanking. However, some kids, in some instances, do. Do some parents screw it up...? Duh? Most parents do the best they know how (or think appropriate). Is that woefully inadequate in many cases? Of course!
Speaking of punishment and behavior correction, I think it's pretty silly we think the kids shouldn't be spanked but often the same people will be calling for the adult to be financially spanked (almost certainly hurting the child), then sent to an adult 'time-out' where we know they will have to deal with the psychological trauma of accepting about a 1:24 chance of getting physically 'spanked' (raped [in the US]) All of which generally making the child's life worse (except in especially abusive situations)
Caring about correcting behavior instead of finding vengeance shouldn't stop when people turn 18, or are of a certain background.
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thing is that after 18(arbitrary number i know but w/e) you should be correcting yourself.
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On September 22 2014 08:13 hp.Shell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 06:50 SK.Testie wrote:The one thing you have to remember is children aren't reasonable or rational. Precisely the reason why spanking is an irrational punishment. If children aren't reasonable, nor rational, why should they be expected to be able to reason the causality of their punishments? Physical abuse in any form is immoral and irrational, with the sole possible exception of killing things that spread disease such as mosquitos and rats.
I'll answer this question as the devil's advocate. Simple behaviorism. Even beings that haven't the ability to reason respond to pain and are able to link the preceding behavior and the pain stimulus if the latter is administered in rapid response to the undesirable behavior. Even if they can't understand yet or ever why A is bad, they will understand on a subconscious level that it is and curtail that behavior.
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I was only spanked once as a kid. I'm 20 now and I don't even remember the actual pain or even what I was doing wrong, I just remember crying in my room afterwards. That was the only time my Dad ever hit me.
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Light spanking when disobeying, spanking got harder when i was older. Mother stopped spanking when the comb she hit me with broke and i laughed.
I guess it didnt harm me long term, i just got my note: "This was wrong." and could go on.
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On September 22 2014 18:57 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 08:13 hp.Shell wrote:On September 22 2014 06:50 SK.Testie wrote:The one thing you have to remember is children aren't reasonable or rational. Precisely the reason why spanking is an irrational punishment. If children aren't reasonable, nor rational, why should they be expected to be able to reason the causality of their punishments? Physical abuse in any form is immoral and irrational, with the sole possible exception of killing things that spread disease such as mosquitos and rats. I'll answer this question as the devil's advocate. Simple behaviorism. Even beings that haven't the ability to reason respond to pain and are able to link the preceding behavior and the pain stimulus if the latter is administered in rapid response to the undesirable behavior. Even if they can't understand yet or ever why A is bad, they will understand on a subconscious level that it is and curtail that behavior.
Spanking doesn't seem like a very effective in your argument since it isn't carried out immediately. Just changing the tone in your voice can act as a noxious stimuli to act as a negative reinforcement when it is needed. In my mind spanking is something you resort when you don't know other options.
I also understand the opinions regarding spanking are very divided. Nobody were spanked where I grew up, but I'm sure many of our parents were. Of course I do not personally understand that there could be a need for spanking.
In the end resorting to violence to get compliance from your child is barbaric. I understand that the term spanking is very wide, but I just don't believe that it is needed. A non-violent society should distance itself from all types of domestic violence.
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the one thing that seriously boggles my mind is how a lot of people in favour of spanking seem to think that kids are dogs or something. you don't fucking "train" kids. they are, after all, human beings, and while probably pretty stubborn at times still intelligent enough to understand your point without you fucking hitting them. like, you have to have better ways to educate them. you are their parent. they depend on you. just ground them if they fucked up, make them apologize and explain to them why that wasn't a good thing to do.
to the people saying that it is okay as long as the goal isnt to cause pain but teach a lesson: you are still going to hurt your child. doesnt matter what your aim is, hitting them on the bum is going to hurt.
obviously the big problem here is the cultural difference, and we won't really be able to convince each other to stop having been raised the way we were, i just think it's scary how so many people consider physical violence the go-to solution when there are communication issues with your child. hitting people is the last thing i will ever do to solve a conflict, and the fact that we are talking about violence against childen just reinforces that stance.
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The irony is that people who do compare children to dogs clearly don't own dogs or trained them properly because people who do, know that they should never hit their dogs.
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On September 22 2014 20:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The irony is that people who do compare children to dogs clearly don't own dogs or trained them properly because people who do, know that they should never hit their dogs.
nvm, misread
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The result of the NA poll was predictable... we are taught early on that violence and vengeance is the answer to our problems. I am surprised at the Europe results though.
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On September 22 2014 18:57 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 08:13 hp.Shell wrote:On September 22 2014 06:50 SK.Testie wrote:The one thing you have to remember is children aren't reasonable or rational. Precisely the reason why spanking is an irrational punishment. If children aren't reasonable, nor rational, why should they be expected to be able to reason the causality of their punishments? Physical abuse in any form is immoral and irrational, with the sole possible exception of killing things that spread disease such as mosquitos and rats. I'll answer this question as the devil's advocate. Simple behaviorism. Even beings that haven't the ability to reason respond to pain and are able to link the preceding behavior and the pain stimulus if the latter is administered in rapid response to the undesirable behavior. Even if they can't understand yet or ever why A is bad, they will understand on a subconscious level that it is and curtail that behavior.
Of course, but it's important to note that behaviorism and classical/ operant conditioning become less and less effective as humans mature and start to be able to reason on their own. So while it might be a quick fix for extremely young children who don't know any better and can't really learn any better at that moment, spanking should be phased out in favor of communication and reasoning with the child as he/ she matures. Furthermore, it's generally established in psychology that positive/ negative reinforcement are more effective than punishment, and spanking is punishment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditioning
In particular, Kohlberg's stages of development speak to approximate ages when higher level mentalities evolve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development#Stages
Children's mindsets evolve from "Don't do this because I'll be punished" to "Don't do this because it's a bad thing to do" as they develop a more solid sense of morality.
I was spanked when I was younger, and while I "deserved" it (in the sense that I was by no means angelic and deserved some level of consequence for my actions), it's made me more skittish and flinchy, especially when someone fake hits me or something travels very fast right past me. I think it's attributed to being spanked when I was younger (open hand, yardstick, wooden spoon, etc.)
Based off what I've read from expert research and what I've experienced anecdotally, I'm going to try to not spank my kids. I think it's far more effective (especially long-term) to find a method of retribution that doesn't involve spanking/ slapping/ beating/ being physical with your kids, especially based on the social science behind it. It's a pity that such physical actions are universally normalized and parents tend to get immediate responses and results from their kids, through fear. I'd rather have my kids respect me than fear me though, and I know those two aren't inseparable.
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Every single day until 11-12, until I made a "charge move" one day, and they suddenly stopped.
For every single thing, if I knocked a glass of milk over at breakfast, spanked. The physical "pain" wasnt the problem, but the fear... When i moved out at 20 and got my own appartment, I managed to knock a glass of some drink over, the fear set in, felt so bad.
I don't know how to feel about it, just that I could never hit my own kid, no fucking way, I'd rather shoot myself.
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I never thought the pain was the problem when it comes to spanking I think the big issue is the emotional trauma that comes from being hit by your parents whom you love. I am still trying to get over the inhibitions I get when talking to my Dad and I'm 22. I know he loves me very much and has given me every opportunity to succeed in the world and yet I am always walking on egg shells when I am with him.
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On September 23 2014 03:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 18:57 NovaTheFeared wrote:On September 22 2014 08:13 hp.Shell wrote:On September 22 2014 06:50 SK.Testie wrote:The one thing you have to remember is children aren't reasonable or rational. Precisely the reason why spanking is an irrational punishment. If children aren't reasonable, nor rational, why should they be expected to be able to reason the causality of their punishments? Physical abuse in any form is immoral and irrational, with the sole possible exception of killing things that spread disease such as mosquitos and rats. I'll answer this question as the devil's advocate. Simple behaviorism. Even beings that haven't the ability to reason respond to pain and are able to link the preceding behavior and the pain stimulus if the latter is administered in rapid response to the undesirable behavior. Even if they can't understand yet or ever why A is bad, they will understand on a subconscious level that it is and curtail that behavior. Of course, but it's important to note that behaviorism and classical/ operant conditioning become less and less effective as humans mature and start to be able to reason on their own. So while it might be a quick fix for extremely young children who don't know any better and can't really learn any better at that moment, spanking should be phased out in favor of communication and reasoning with the child as he/ she matures. Furthermore, it's generally established in psychology that positive/ negative reinforcement are more effective than punishment, and spanking is punishment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditioning In particular, Kohlberg's stages of development speak to approximate ages when higher level mentalities evolve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development#Stages Children's mindsets evolve from "Don't do this because I'll be punished" to "Don't do this because it's a bad thing to do" as they develop a more solid sense of morality. I was spanked when I was younger, and while I "deserved" it (in the sense that I was by no means angelic and deserved some level of consequence for my actions), it's made me more skittish and flinchy, especially when someone fake hits me or something travels very fast right past me. I think it's attributed to being spanked when I was younger (open hand, yardstick, wooden spoon, etc.) Based off what I've read from expert research and what I've experienced anecdotally, I'm going to try to not spank my kids. I think it's far more effective (especially long-term) to find a method of retribution that doesn't involve spanking/ slapping/ beating/ being physical with your kids, especially based on the social science behind it. It's a pity that such physical actions are universally normalized and parents tend to get immediate responses and results from their kids, through fear. I'd rather have my kids respect me than fear me though, and I know those two aren't inseparable.
First thing I thought of is Bandura's bobo doll experiment. Once that association is learned, it's hard to unlearn..I was actually talking about the issue of corporal punishment in a course I teach on data analysis and the research against it is pretty damning. Some of the effects its caused you are pretty common and you can actually see some of the physical changes in the brain wiring due to early childhood experiences. A lot of people who experience CP as a child later on have coping issues, especially when dealing with stress, lower cognitive functioning, higher rates of aggression, and a whole bunch of other issues.
Some links if people are interested:
http://www.human.cornell.edu/pam/outreach/parenting/research/upload/Spanking-Research-Brief.pdf
http://umaine.edu/publications/4357e/
http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/22033-time-out-spanking-babies-is-surprisingly-common
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP36.pdf (and an actual research article rather than a brief)
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qui parcit vigram, odit filum.
lol, II had no idea that spanking was still this common.
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On September 22 2014 20:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The irony is that people who do compare children to dogs clearly don't own dogs or trained them properly because people who do, know that they should never hit their dogs.
i tend to disagree; beating children is clearly abuse, beating a dog surely is aswell. But unlike a child, you cannot talk or reason with a dog, so to express your disagreement with your dogs behavior you need to interfer with him right when he does something he shouldn´t. The important part here is the timing, rather then the punishment. My neighbors, for example, had a lot of trouble with their dogs barking. The dog would loudly greet any anyone in a rather threateing manner, so they got collar that reacted to the dogs barking and sprewed some stinking liquid right under its nose.
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On September 23 2014 07:31 Dknight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 03:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 22 2014 18:57 NovaTheFeared wrote:On September 22 2014 08:13 hp.Shell wrote:On September 22 2014 06:50 SK.Testie wrote:The one thing you have to remember is children aren't reasonable or rational. Precisely the reason why spanking is an irrational punishment. If children aren't reasonable, nor rational, why should they be expected to be able to reason the causality of their punishments? Physical abuse in any form is immoral and irrational, with the sole possible exception of killing things that spread disease such as mosquitos and rats. I'll answer this question as the devil's advocate. Simple behaviorism. Even beings that haven't the ability to reason respond to pain and are able to link the preceding behavior and the pain stimulus if the latter is administered in rapid response to the undesirable behavior. Even if they can't understand yet or ever why A is bad, they will understand on a subconscious level that it is and curtail that behavior. Of course, but it's important to note that behaviorism and classical/ operant conditioning become less and less effective as humans mature and start to be able to reason on their own. So while it might be a quick fix for extremely young children who don't know any better and can't really learn any better at that moment, spanking should be phased out in favor of communication and reasoning with the child as he/ she matures. Furthermore, it's generally established in psychology that positive/ negative reinforcement are more effective than punishment, and spanking is punishment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditioning In particular, Kohlberg's stages of development speak to approximate ages when higher level mentalities evolve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development#Stages Children's mindsets evolve from "Don't do this because I'll be punished" to "Don't do this because it's a bad thing to do" as they develop a more solid sense of morality. I was spanked when I was younger, and while I "deserved" it (in the sense that I was by no means angelic and deserved some level of consequence for my actions), it's made me more skittish and flinchy, especially when someone fake hits me or something travels very fast right past me. I think it's attributed to being spanked when I was younger (open hand, yardstick, wooden spoon, etc.) Based off what I've read from expert research and what I've experienced anecdotally, I'm going to try to not spank my kids. I think it's far more effective (especially long-term) to find a method of retribution that doesn't involve spanking/ slapping/ beating/ being physical with your kids, especially based on the social science behind it. It's a pity that such physical actions are universally normalized and parents tend to get immediate responses and results from their kids, through fear. I'd rather have my kids respect me than fear me though, and I know those two aren't inseparable. First thing I thought of is Bandura's bobo doll experiment. Once that association is learned, it's hard to unlearn..I was actually talking about the issue of corporal punishment in a course I teach on data analysis and the research against it is pretty damning. Some of the effects its caused you are pretty common and you can actually see some of the physical changes in the brain wiring due to early childhood experiences. A lot of people who experience CP as a child later on have coping issues, especially when dealing with stress, lower cognitive functioning, higher rates of aggression, and a whole bunch of other issues. Some links if people are interested: http://www.human.cornell.edu/pam/outreach/parenting/research/upload/Spanking-Research-Brief.pdfhttp://umaine.edu/publications/4357e/http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/22033-time-out-spanking-babies-is-surprisingly-commonhttp://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP36.pdf (and an actual research article rather than a brief)
Those are good sources one of my college minors was psychology, and I really liked learning about infant, child, and adolescent development.
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Ooooh, not often I see a umaine source for something not engineering.
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I rarely got spanked, normally my dad would just punch me in the face/ stomach haha , I remember going to school with a black eye multiple times.
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On September 27 2014 23:55 KARASVCXA666 wrote:
I rarely got spanked, normally my dad would just punch me in the face/ stomach haha , I remember going to school with a black eye multiple times.
just.
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I think the necessity of spanking is an interesting discussion.
I have thought about how I would treat my children a lot. I think it depends on the children.
It's easy for people who don't have children or who have well behaved children to say that spanking is unnecessary, but I think that if you were raising a child who often was stubborn and unreasonable, you might find that you needed a more impressionable form of punishment to keep that child from repeating a crucial mistake.
And it's not just about "punishment" if you are a good parent. It's about protecting the child's interests.
I remember when I was a young boy, I was a pretty good kid in school generally, but one time to garner attention from the rest of my elementary school class, I proceeded to "pants" a mentally handicapped child in the class. I was too young to consider how cruel what I was doing was (this child had a very rough time at home and at school). I imagine how terrified my parents must have been that their boy would do something like this, that is so far against their beliefs and what they teach.
My parents could have tried to have a serious discussion about this with me, a 7 year old boy, but I was young and stubborn and overly energetic. That would be a lot of effort to try to reinforce something that I obviously already knew deep down, because when I committed this action it wasn't that I didn't know what I was doing was wrong, it was that I didn't care enough in comparison to the attention I could garner from my classmates.
My father spanked me repeatedly on the butt with a leather belt in response to this. It left a serious impression. I remember just feeling horrible and afraid of his response and disappointed in myself (even at that young age). After he did this, it reinforced something in me that helped me to question my actions in situations where I could mistreat someone else.
So, am I saying you should spank your kids? No. But I do think my father spanking me in this instance had a positive affect, and not all parents are behavior experts.
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Spanking with a leather belt isn't even spanking any more.I guess even in the US that would be considered child abuse, which again goes to show how often parents seem to cross the line between the two.
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Well it didnt injure me or even have any lasting effects so I don't really see why it would be considered abuse.
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Many kids may experience long lasting effects from it as a lot of people in this thread have pointed out, and I'm pretty sure that there are already a lot of forms of abuse that don't require somebody to be visually insured.
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Well I wasn't talking about just physical injury. I would think abuse would involve being injured physically or mentally/emotionally. But I was not injured mentally/emotionally either.
I didn't read the whole thread because it's long. There were actually people who complained about lasting effects from being spanked? (I am talking about being spanked, not being beaten).
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On September 28 2014 00:57 travis wrote:
Well I wasn't talking about just physical injury. I would think abuse would involve being injured physically or mentally/emotionally. But I was not injured mentally/emotionally either.
I didn't read the whole thread because it's long. There were actually people who complained about lasting effects from being spanked? (I am talking about being spanked, not being beaten).
The thing is, Nyxisto seems to believe there's no difference between spanking and beating.
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On September 28 2014 01:00 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 00:57 travis wrote:
Well I wasn't talking about just physical injury. I would think abuse would involve being injured physically or mentally/emotionally. But I was not injured mentally/emotionally either.
I didn't read the whole thread because it's long. There were actually people who complained about lasting effects from being spanked? (I am talking about being spanked, not being beaten). The thing is, Nyxisto seems to believe there's no difference between spanking and beating.
Well yes(because in most countries around here every form of corporal punishment is considered illegal and viewed as disgusting, so that's not too surprising) , but I thought that we could at least all agree on that using anything else than the open hand is definitely even by US standards a no-go.
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On September 28 2014 01:03 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 01:00 Millitron wrote:On September 28 2014 00:57 travis wrote:
Well I wasn't talking about just physical injury. I would think abuse would involve being injured physically or mentally/emotionally. But I was not injured mentally/emotionally either.
I didn't read the whole thread because it's long. There were actually people who complained about lasting effects from being spanked? (I am talking about being spanked, not being beaten). The thing is, Nyxisto seems to believe there's no difference between spanking and beating. Well yes, but I thought that we could at least all agree on that using anything else than the open hand is definitely even by US standards a no-go.
I think it depends on how you use it but I never recall being hit on the butt with a leather belt as even being particularly painful. I was a tough kid I guess, but I honestly don't think it was much different than an open hand.
Honestly I understand your viewpoint man, and when you hear "hit with leather belt" it could sound like I was getting beaten. But really I wasn't.
For the record, I think a stance of complete anti-violence is awesome. It just may make parenting very difficult with some children.
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Call it a difference in the meaning of spanking. Where I am from it's not really a spanking if it doesn't really cause pain, it's more of a smacking.
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On September 28 2014 01:00 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 00:57 travis wrote:
Well I wasn't talking about just physical injury. I would think abuse would involve being injured physically or mentally/emotionally. But I was not injured mentally/emotionally either.
I didn't read the whole thread because it's long. There were actually people who complained about lasting effects from being spanked? (I am talking about being spanked, not being beaten). The thing is, Nyxisto seems to believe there's no difference between spanking and beating.
because there is none. or rather, the only difference is the intensity of the punishment, which makes every distiction between these two subjective and somewhat arbitrary.
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On September 28 2014 01:38 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 01:00 Millitron wrote:On September 28 2014 00:57 travis wrote:
Well I wasn't talking about just physical injury. I would think abuse would involve being injured physically or mentally/emotionally. But I was not injured mentally/emotionally either.
I didn't read the whole thread because it's long. There were actually people who complained about lasting effects from being spanked? (I am talking about being spanked, not being beaten). The thing is, Nyxisto seems to believe there's no difference between spanking and beating. because there is none. or rather, the only difference is the intensity of the punishment, which makes every distiction between these two subjective and somewhat arbitrary.
Then by that argument all punishment is child abuse. A sternly worded lecture is emotional torture.
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Go on then. Make that argument logically, rather then claiming that argument for him.
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On September 20 2014 14:07 omisa wrote:
The belt was the worst. Wooden spoon hurt like a bitch too.
Ack, wooden spoons sucked something fierce. I was never belted or paddled as a child, I think either one would be a little
much. My aunt used a flyswatter on her kids (and cats!). Pretty much harmless but they sting and make a lot noise too, makes it pretty effective. She was also not above slapping her boys when they got too big to intimidate and were being ornery. She told me she would get a chair to stand on to slap her oldest (she's like 4'11'' or 5' even and he's 6'4'' at least).
Drawing blood is way too much, it's supposed to be about pain and associating it with misconduct, not injury or satisfaction on the parent's part. The whole point of spanking your children is because they lack the cognitive capability to understand right from wrong when they are young until they learn it over time. Until then, associating pain with undesired behaviors is a good way to repress them; It doesn't even take physical striking once it's ingrained, just the threat of "Dad clobberin' ya" as Wally Cleaver put it can repress bad behavior. Adults are authority figures to children, and it helps express to the child that defiance is not to be tolerated as well. Doing nothing tells them there are no consequences to anything considered "bad" in society and you can see where that is headed when the kid grows up that way...
I'll throw it out there right now that I'm not a parent. Still, personally I think kids aren't spanked enough. I've seen enough in my own family to sway me. One of my cousins is a doting father to his little boy, I think it probably stems from the fact his wife cheated on him and left them both when the kid was only 3. He never strikes him or raises his voice, just takes his toys away and gives him time-outs. The kid is super clingy, possessive of anything he puts his hands on, and is frankly a little bastard. He hits people, including his father (the kid finds it amusing). He steals shit, breaks it simply because he feels he can do what he wants, and then throws it around (usually at other people). He freaks out and throws tantrums if any of these behaviors are stopped. His dad just grabs him and sits him in his lap and tells him to calm down (ineffectually) while the kid wails for the next 15 mins or so while he's captive. When he's free again he just starts it all over. I'm not saying that violence in this matter is the right path, and I'm not saying that maybe it's pathetic that his own father can't bring himself to curtail him. What I am saying, is that if that kid was spanked for doing these things, especially in the company of family at a holiday gathering, he'd probably do them a lot less instead of every time I've seen him for the past 5 years. Once he gets old enough to be socially aware there's the element of shame to act as a motivator against bad behavior too.
This other cousin of mine has a whole gaggle of kids from assorted girlfriends and a marriage or two. The only ones that mind are his stepchildren because their mother (his current wife and matriarch) spanks them and always has. They don't fear him even though I'm sure he was corporal with his own kids, they fear mom's reprisal. Pretty crazy considering him and his oldest son (they are so alike and both are just bastards).
Another cousin has a real momma's boy. He clings to her like a little monkey all the time. She openly talks about spanking him when he acts up and yet you never see it because you didn't have to. Her oldest sister did the same with her two girls and both of them are wonderful, sweet kids. Their mother did the same to all 3 of her daughters; I grew up the same way with a rather punishment gung-ho mom and fairly lenient dad and the only complaint either one would have I think is that I didn't get punished enough because I didn't do enough wrong things (For instance my mom always accused me of smoking from like 4th grade on but I never have other than to try that nasty shit). Most of my teenage headbutting with my mom came about over her wildly overreacting and trying to outlandishly punish me over little sticking points; it just made my dad think she was crazy lol.
I'm actually curious as to how other cultures in which spanking is not traditional effectively curtail misbehaving children when they are still young. Kids do what they want without a fear of reprisal present, and before they are emotionally formed, they can run the gamut from sweet to complete little fuckers.
On September 20 2014 16:00 Powerpill wrote:
But back on point. Basically, behaving to avoid punishment goes more in line with the spanking, but behaving because that is how you want and believe you should act, while trickier to accomplish, is something I think parents should strive to instill. A bit idealist perhaps, but very possible to accomplish. ^_^
The only way that works is if the child *wants* to model him/herself after his/her parents. That's not always the case, and you can't force it on a kid. It just leads to resentment if they are resistant. Some kids like to emulate a sibling, or other relative or even imaginary characters written up for TV. All you can do is try to set an example that you want them to follow and be quick to keep them form stepping into the wrong path.
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Wow I wasn't aware spanking was such a thing in the U.S. Crazy
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Cant really grasp why you should spank a child when you can raise a kid to be a good citizen without spanking.
My mom is a teacher and the children that are spanked at home behave waay worse than the childs that are not spanked. You can reason with children from a very young age.
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I remember there was a thread like this a few years ago on TL. Apparently there are lots of studies that suggest spanking is bad for your child. I don't think I'd spank my children if I ever became a parent, but until then I'm not going to judge the people who do. I feel like if you have to resort to spanking, then you've already done something wrong, but who am I to talk?
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Yeah, I've gotten the good old back hand across the face, and while they definitely didn't make me feel good, they were well deserved.
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Broke up with my ex girlfriend when she said she would hit our children if we ever get some. People who cannot even reason with children without resorting to violence are failures as human beings.
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On September 28 2014 03:09 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 01:38 Paljas wrote:On September 28 2014 01:00 Millitron wrote:On September 28 2014 00:57 travis wrote:
Well I wasn't talking about just physical injury. I would think abuse would involve being injured physically or mentally/emotionally. But I was not injured mentally/emotionally either.
I didn't read the whole thread because it's long. There were actually people who complained about lasting effects from being spanked? (I am talking about being spanked, not being beaten). The thing is, Nyxisto seems to believe there's no difference between spanking and beating. because there is none. or rather, the only difference is the intensity of the punishment, which makes every distiction between these two subjective and somewhat arbitrary. Then by that argument all punishment is child abuse. A sternly worded lecture is emotional torture.
Yes all punishment that involves beating a kid is child abuse.
It is solely an overreaction from the parent who wants to have a quick fix for the situation because he can't or doesn't want to deal with it in a different way.
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United States24683 Posts
On September 28 2014 22:29 Yuljan wrote:
Broke up with my ex girlfriend when she said she would hit our children if we ever get some. People who cannot even reason with children without resorting to violence are failures as human beings.
I can understand avoiding violence, but the way you call it 'reasoning with children' worries me. As much as you call violent parents failures as human beings, parents who try to reason with an illogical/emotional 5 year old will often find themselves failing as parents as well. Of course, there are other things besides violence and reasoning, like removal of privileges, but I don't consider that 'reasoning.'
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On September 28 2014 22:29 Yuljan wrote:
Broke up with my ex girlfriend when she said she would hit our children if we ever get some. People who cannot even reason with children without resorting to violence are failures as human beings.
yea sure, you're reasoning with someone who can't yet reason...
Piaget's second stage, the pre-operational stage, starts when the child begins to learn to speak at age two and lasts up until the age of seven. During the Pre-operational Stage of cognitive development, Piaget noted that children do not yet understand concrete logic and cannot mentally manipulate information. Children’s increase in playing and pretending takes place in this stage. However, the child still has trouble seeing things from different points of view.
just stop lying to yourselves thinking you reason with children because you don't; you lie and manipulate them.
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I don't really want to generalize, but I find it sad that America had so much more spanking towards children. Must be because of the overly zealous religious culture.
On a side note, if we could draw some conclusion from the poll, the act of spanking doesn't probably affect the upbringing of children that much. It's probably more about the kind of emotion the parent transmits during the punishment that deeply roots into childrens memories.
As children are incredibly sensitive towards what their parents feel, spanking could potentially produce any kind of effect (positive, neutral or negative), depending on the emotional meaning the parent channels through the act.
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On September 28 2014 23:19 aTnClouD wrote:
I don't really want to generalize, but I find it sad that America had so much more spanking towards children. Must be because of the overly zealous religious culture.
On a side note, if we could draw some conclusion from the poll, the act of spanking doesn't probably affect the upbringing of children that much. It's probably more about the kind of emotion the parent transmits during the punishment that deeply roots into childrens memories.
As children are incredibly sensitive towards what their parents feel, spanking could potentially produce any kind of effect (positive, neutral or negative), depending on the emotional meaning the parent channels through the act.
this^
spanking itself isnt the problem.
its the parents' thoughts and general attitudes toward the child that harm the child in the long run.
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On September 29 2014 00:40 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 23:19 aTnClouD wrote:
I don't really want to generalize, but I find it sad that America had so much more spanking towards children. Must be because of the overly zealous religious culture.
On a side note, if we could draw some conclusion from the poll, the act of spanking doesn't probably affect the upbringing of children that much. It's probably more about the kind of emotion the parent transmits during the punishment that deeply roots into childrens memories.
As children are incredibly sensitive towards what their parents feel, spanking could potentially produce any kind of effect (positive, neutral or negative), depending on the emotional meaning the parent channels through the act. this^ spanking itself isnt the problem. its the parents' thoughts and general attitudes toward the child that harm the child in the long run.
Exactly. Whatever scolding is given to the children (from saying the word "NO" to spanking) should come with the intention to DISCIPLINE the children, which stems from a genuine feeling it is the best for the kid (this is love)
If you yell or spank your kid because you are ANGRY and not because of DISCIPLINE that's abuse.
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On September 22 2014 16:35 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:37 Grumbels wrote:On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that. Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical. how is that cynicism?; that's just a simple case of choosing the lesser evil and it works exactly like that for toddlers. they respond more/better to psychological punishments and less to physical ones because those(the former) hurt the most, because those are more damaging. you are abusing/damaging your kids by not spanking them.
What? So the more effective way is worse because it "hurts" the child? What does hurt mean by your definition? How is that abuse? How is a child damaged by you taking away something as a consequence of them misbehaving?
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Taking a toy away is a form of punishment, but it does not scare the child. If the parents cut a child's pocket money the kid may get angry, but it isn't scared. There is something very distinct to physically overpowering somebody. If you take your child's toy away you're basically saying "look kid this is the consequence if you do something that annoys other people". If you use corporal punishment you are saying "I'm strong, you're weak, don't feel safe here buddy". It abuses the fact that children are very dependent on the safety that their parents offer them. And using this bond between parents and kid as a leverage is a very terrible thing to do.
This same barrier exists everywhere pretty much. You don't get physical with your girl- or boyfriend, you don't physically punish someone in custody, it's just a line that people intuitively don't cross because everybody knows that its really bad. But somehow when it comes to children, who need this protection the most, people start treating them like property, that's what's very disgusting about it.
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On September 29 2014 02:38 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 16:35 xM(Z wrote:On September 22 2014 04:37 Grumbels wrote:On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that. Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical. how is that cynicism?; that's just a simple case of choosing the lesser evil and it works exactly like that for toddlers. they respond more/better to psychological punishments and less to physical ones because those(the former) hurt the most, because those are more damaging. you are abusing/damaging your kids by not spanking them. What? So the more effective way is worse because it "hurts" the child? What does hurt mean by your definition? How is that abuse? How is a child damaged by you taking away something as a consequence of them misbehaving?
you get the expected result when the punishment worked. the punishment works when you make the kid submit to your ideas of right/wrong (or whatever else you have going there).
it's impossible to a kid to understand your reasoning since he is yet biologically unequipped to do so.
in your example: the kid just learns to submit to someone with the power to deprive him of stuff since he has no fucking clue what you want from/of him. you deprive him of what he loves, it hurts him, he submits, the end.
a smack is easily forgotten. kids are known to do the same stupid things within hours of being spanked because of them; it means the smacking doesn't really hurt or is at least a passing thing.
psychological damage > physical damage. because ... it just hurts more.
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I can only remember once when my Mother spanked me, don't remember what for so I can't say I didn't do it again or just got smarter at hiding what I did.
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I was not spankend (typical european here ^^) but I also learned to behave early. So there never was any need for that. That said: Our neighbours offspring would suit some spanking as he accepts no rules and can't be reasoned with. There was probably some wrong parenting earlier, but if you cannot reason with someone you need to use force be it terrrorists or your child. It's that simple. If I would have behaved like that, there would have been lot's of spanking, and it would have been for the better.
There's a simple thing you need to know when parenting:
Democratic thinking is not something you're born with, it's something you learn. And it's not a concept that suits parenting before the child really can grasp those concepts (usually not before the age of 12). Children are children and not adults. Even if it goes against your fundamental beliefs: The parents home should be a dictatorship. That way, you don't create some narcissistic monster and your child will have a more protected, happy and "childish" childhood.
And yes, your child will be more happy in the long run if it gets to feel some force (as a last resort to discipline, and only if really necessary) instead of being treated like an adult.
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On September 29 2014 03:02 Nyxisto wrote:
Taking a toy away is a form of punishment, but it does not scare the child. If the parents cut a child's pocket money the kid may get angry, but it isn't scared. There is something very distinct to physically overpowering somebody. If you take your child's toy away you're basically saying "look kid this is the consequence if you do something that annoys other people". If you use corporal punishment you are saying "I'm strong, you're weak, don't feel safe here buddy". It abuses the fact that children are very dependent on the safety that their parents offer them. And using this bond between parents and kid as a leverage is a very terrible thing to do.
This same barrier exists everywhere pretty much. You don't get physical with your girl- or boyfriend, you don't physically punish someone in custody, it's just a line that people intuitively don't cross because everybody knows that its really bad. But somehow when it comes to children, who need this protection the most, people start treating them like property, that's what's very disgusting about it.
Ok I generally stay out of these assinine sorts of threads, but read the first and last page and man this post is so stupid. There are some decent points in the little I've read from both sides but this is not one of them. Since when is corporal punishment "physically overpowering somebody" or "scary". It is merely painful. lol. I was spanked relatively rarely (my brother more) and with a hell of a lot more than an open hand and I was never, ever, ever "scared" of my parents. Hell, I went to a school where I was spanked once (for getting in fight) and was I scared of the principal after that? Hell no. That is just not what it does at all.
Basically it all comes down to what many, many people have said. ANY sort of discipline is all about the attitude and reasons behind it. You can do even more damage emotionally than physically. My own personal childhood experience was that many of my friends/classmates whos parents didnt believe in spanking there was a tendency for the kids to be MUCH more manipulative and bratty, in fact non-corporal punishment seems to me much, much more likely to make kids just try to figure out how to dodge and avoid/get around the punishments then actually learn that what they did in the first place was wrong.
Anyways, per OP, despite my opinion that corporal punishment is 100% justified and nothing wrong with it in my mind the Peterson case was clearly abuse and out of line. I know from personal experience that it is quite possible to create a very sharp impression with a wooden paddle on the behind without doing any sort of lasting harm. If you are raising welts or breaking the skin, get off yourself, use something else and maintain the control to actually hit the kid on the butt. This is part of why you never lay out ANY sort of punishment out of anger.
Whats the point of these discussions anyways lol. Its not like anyone "changes" their mind.
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it's 'cause at TL, shit always gets figured out!; the people who won't/don't change their mind are exposed for being psychologically corrupted and/or damaged.
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Yes, Europe.
Not excessively, not really painfully either, more as a gesture of: "You seriously misbehaved".
I grew up fine and love my parents so I would say it worked.
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1. Scientific perspective
Social science research says spanking leads to negative outcomes.
Parental endorsement of spanking and children’s internalizing and externalizing problems in African American and Hispanic families. By: Coley, Rebekah Levine, Kull, Melissa A., Carrano, Jennifer, Journal of Family Psychology, 08933200, 20140201, Vol. 28, Issue 1
link to article: http://goo.gl/C5tKtf
2. Personal ramblings on development and discipline.
Personally I don't really remember if I was spanked. I do remember that things weren't really explained to me. I was expected to behave for the sake of maintaining proper appearances. I was to taught to control myself for the sake of others not for my own sake. I learned to behave but I feel I could have been a more full person with different socialization at a young age.
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When I think about it at the most basic level, I think that not hitting my child is better than hitting my child.
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I wasn't spanked, but my parents slapped me in the face. My mother hit me until I asked her to stop (I was 7 or 8), she looked really upset when I said that. My father hit me until I tried to hit him back (around 13years old), the surprise on his face was priceless.
I always thought their behaviour was unreasonable and if I should ever have children, I hope I won't make the same mistake. How can you teach your child that violence is wrong and then use it on them? It's simply retarded.
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Spanking is not painful enough, I was hit with metal hangers, slippers, bamboo sticks, chop sticks. People are too desensitized these days, everyone in my family did not develop these social issues. Unless you're being abused everyday that is not the case here.
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On September 29 2014 22:00 Disregard wrote:
Spanking is not painful enough, I was hit with metal hangers, slippers, bamboo sticks, chop sticks. People are too desensitized these days, everyone in my family did not develop these social issues. Unless you're being abused everyday that is not the case here.
If you find it normal to be hit with stuff like that, im pretty sure you just dont notice the social issues.....
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These underlying social issues are hyped and brought up from dysfunctional and abusive families. Many societies are brought up this way, there's a difference here so stop being so narrow-minded.
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On September 29 2014 22:57 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2014 22:00 Disregard wrote:
Spanking is not painful enough, I was hit with metal hangers, slippers, bamboo sticks, chop sticks. People are too desensitized these days, everyone in my family did not develop these social issues. Unless you're being abused everyday that is not the case here. If you find it normal to be hit with stuff like that, im pretty sure you just dont notice the social issues.....
I would like to list these social issues that my family might have developed or brought on that is more related to our culture than anything.
edit: I grew up in a Western society so I'm aware and experienced both sides of the story.
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That's not spanking, that's beating.
Spanking is about the shock factor. Beating about hurting the child.
I do not believe anything to be wrong with spanking, as a last resort. Children cannot always be reasoned with.
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I've not seen a succinct case for 'how to discipline' so I guess I'm going to add my 2 cents.
1. The child should be given a chance to behave first. (TALK to the child: "I understand that you are upset but you cannot hit your sister. Nobody likes to be hit, and so you shouldn't hit either. Your sister is part of our family and family loves each other").
2. Discipline should be preceded by a clear warning: "You know that you aren't supposed to do that, now you have a choice. You can chose to do the right thing, or you can chose the wrong thing that leads to discipline."
3. Discipline should never be done in anger. Calmly talk to the child and make it clear that the discipline is a result of their choices. "I'm sorry that you made that bad choice to hit your sister again and chose discipline."
4. Discipline should be consistent. You cannot say that their choice will have consequences and then back out or bargain. This sends mixed messages to the child and is very negative.
5. Discipline should be followed by love. After discipline, you make it clear to the child that you love them and have a time of hugging/affection. Also maybe a good time to re-emphasize the lesson: "Families love each other and your sister is part of your family. We don't hit people, especially family."
Notice that I did not specifically say that the discipline is "spanking" although it can be. Discipline for different children is different. One child might wilt if you look at him with disapproval while another may be very strong-willed and rebellious. Substituting "spanking" for discipline above should not be a first response, but may be necessary with some children.
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Grew up in Malaysia where caning (hitting with a wooden stick) is normal, common and accepted.
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On September 30 2014 02:10 LaughingTulkas wrote:
4. Discipline should be consistent. You cannot say that their choice will have consequences and then back out or bargain. This sends mixed messages to the child and is very negative.
5. Discipline should be followed by love. After discipline, you make it clear to the child that you love them and have a time of hugging/affection. Also maybe a good time to re-emphasize the lesson: "Families love each other and your sister is part of your family. We don't hit people, especially family."
How about the mixed signals sent by re-emphasizing this lesson after spanking your child, which is after all hitting a family member? This is some double standard I for one cannot endorse.
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This topic blew my mind. I thought spanking was something only few people did back in the 19' century
36% of all europeans and 70% of all americans... what!?! I never even heard of the phenonem in real life.
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On September 30 2014 05:47 Warfie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 02:10 LaughingTulkas wrote:
4. Discipline should be consistent. You cannot say that their choice will have consequences and then back out or bargain. This sends mixed messages to the child and is very negative.
5. Discipline should be followed by love. After discipline, you make it clear to the child that you love them and have a time of hugging/affection. Also maybe a good time to re-emphasize the lesson: "Families love each other and your sister is part of your family. We don't hit people, especially family."
How about the mixed signals sent by re-emphasizing this lesson after spanking your child, which is after all hitting a family member? This is some double standard I for one cannot endorse.
There is a clear distinction between hitting in anger and the natural consequences of negative actions (spanking) which a child can easily grasp. Spanking, done in anger, is always wrong. Having it be a consequence, clearly defined, and calmly carried out, is actually a lot less harmful than yelling, name-calling, and a host of other non-physical abuses.
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i would disagree that spanking is natural.
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Luckily, i wasnt spanked. Some of my friends were spanked, some were not. Some of them werent harmed by it, others took severe emotional damage from it that they still havent been able to work out (mid 20s now).
Every child is different. Only because you dont think it was a problem when you were spanked doesnt mean your child will feel the same way. You might not inflict lasting emotional damage to your child by spanking, but there is a chance. I definitely will not risk that.
BTW: I did a lot of babysitting (for pretty much every age) and I dont think that kids cant be reasoned with, their reasoning just works differently.
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On September 30 2014 06:11 Napoleon53 wrote:
This topic blew my mind. I thought spanking was something only few people did back in the 19' century
36% of all europeans and 70% of all americans... what!?! I never even heard of the phenonem in real life.
My mother spanked my sister once.. she(my mother) still has regrets when she tells the story
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I got spanked by my mother a few times.
She looked very mad while doing it. Like she could not control her anger.
Why not teach the child with other means. Btw, if the person is angry while spanking, then its wrong to spank. Its wrong either way but it makes it double wrong.
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On September 30 2014 19:51 Foxxan wrote:
I got spanked by my mother a few times.
She looked very mad while doing it. Like she could not control her anger.
Why not teach the child with other means. Btw, if the person is angry while spanking, then its wrong to spank. Its wrong either way but it makes it double wrong.
It is the calm and systematic abuse that makes me feel the most disgusted, but perhaps that is personal.
Anyway the discussion is fairly pointless at this point, the pro-corporal punishment crowd cannot be reasoned with and violence against them is the only way to teach them its wrong.
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very unexpected results, personally i think it's very wrong to slap your child (or anyone)
iirc my stepdad tried to give me a slap once and my mother said she would leave him instantly if he tried again
my granddad tried it once and i threw a chair at him
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On September 30 2014 20:45 ramon wrote:
my granddad tried it once and i threw a chair at him
So basically, you deserved a slap but got away with it.
On September 30 2014 20:11 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 19:51 Foxxan wrote:
I got spanked by my mother a few times.
She looked very mad while doing it. Like she could not control her anger.
Why not teach the child with other means. Btw, if the person is angry while spanking, then its wrong to spank. Its wrong either way but it makes it double wrong. It is the calm and systematic abuse that makes me feel the most disgusted, but perhaps that is personal. Anyway the discussion is fairly pointless at this point, the pro-corporal punishment crowd cannot be reasoned with and violence against them is the only way to teach them its wrong.
I have to agree, if people are completely calm and collected when they're doing it, that's pretty awful, I couldn't bring myself to hit anybody while i'm calm let alone a child.. Then on the other end of the spectrum if you're so angry your intent is to bring serious pain..that's awful too.
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On September 30 2014 21:22 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 20:45 ramon wrote:
my granddad tried it once and i threw a chair at him So basically, you deserved a slap but got away with it. Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 20:11 Crushinator wrote:On September 30 2014 19:51 Foxxan wrote:
I got spanked by my mother a few times.
She looked very mad while doing it. Like she could not control her anger.
Why not teach the child with other means. Btw, if the person is angry while spanking, then its wrong to spank. Its wrong either way but it makes it double wrong. It is the calm and systematic abuse that makes me feel the most disgusted, but perhaps that is personal. Anyway the discussion is fairly pointless at this point, the pro-corporal punishment crowd cannot be reasoned with and violence against them is the only way to teach them its wrong. I have to agree, if people are completely calm and collected when they're doing it, that's pretty awful, I couldn't bring myself to hit anybody while i'm calm let alone a child.. Then on the other end of the spectrum if you're so angry your intent is to bring serious pain..that's awful too.
If you lose your temper while spanking a kid you are an abusive parent, just like you would be if you yelled at him because he pissed you off. Spanking is done to discipline the child, it's just a harsher form of punishment than taking away his gaming console for a few days. Both are done to discipline the kid, not to satisfy your anger.
(I don't like spanking btw, but the notion that you can't touch your kids or that violence in general "is never the answer" disgusts me as a naive view by sheltered people who have never faced violence themselves)
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Only in a couple extreme occasions of my entire childhood. And even then it was more of a symbolic spanking for the shame of it rather than any kind of pain.
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On September 30 2014 20:45 ramon wrote:
very unexpected results, personally i think it's very wrong to slap your child (or anyone)
iirc my stepdad tried to give me a slap once and my mother said she would leave him instantly if he tried again
my granddad tried it once and i threw a chair at him
and that anecdote should mean what?. that children who were not smacked find throwing chairs at their granddads normal?.
fine education you got there.
the simple fact that smacking is illegal gives you ... rights?, regardless of it(your acts/actions) being right/wrong, good/bad, (socially)acceptable or unacceptable?.
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On September 30 2014 21:34 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 21:22 Capped wrote:On September 30 2014 20:45 ramon wrote:
my granddad tried it once and i threw a chair at him So basically, you deserved a slap but got away with it. On September 30 2014 20:11 Crushinator wrote:On September 30 2014 19:51 Foxxan wrote:
I got spanked by my mother a few times.
She looked very mad while doing it. Like she could not control her anger.
Why not teach the child with other means. Btw, if the person is angry while spanking, then its wrong to spank. Its wrong either way but it makes it double wrong. It is the calm and systematic abuse that makes me feel the most disgusted, but perhaps that is personal. Anyway the discussion is fairly pointless at this point, the pro-corporal punishment crowd cannot be reasoned with and violence against them is the only way to teach them its wrong. I have to agree, if people are completely calm and collected when they're doing it, that's pretty awful, I couldn't bring myself to hit anybody while i'm calm let alone a child.. Then on the other end of the spectrum if you're so angry your intent is to bring serious pain..that's awful too. If you lose your temper while spanking a kid you are an abusive parent, just like you would be if you yelled at him because he pissed you off. Spanking is done to discipline the child, it's just a harsher form of punishment than taking away his gaming console for a few days. Both are done to discipline the kid, not to satisfy your anger. (I don't like spanking btw, but the notion that you can't touch your kids or that violence in general "is never the answer" disgusts me as a naive view by sheltered people who have never faced violence themselves)
You think shouting at your child when he does something wrong makes you an abusive parent? I'm sorry but i work in childcare and if a child does something wrong and fails to listen multiple times every single one of my co-workers (and ex) will raise their voice if the situation requires it, me included. I'm sure this is the same pretty much everywhere and we aren't even their parents. However i do not mean screaming viciously or in a threatening manner, that's probably what you meant?
I think its sick that you could hit a child without being angered / upset by their actions. If you are completely lucid with them why do their actions require spanking in the first place? The thing is, there is a huge difference between being angry / upset enough to spank them and losing your temper / angrily spanking them with the intent to harm.
*BTW I don't hit children in my workplace (or mistreat them :o), haven't and never will, i don't have my own children either i have just always been under the impression that if my children are deserving, they will be spanked as a form of severe discipline.
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On September 30 2014 21:50 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 21:34 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 30 2014 21:22 Capped wrote:On September 30 2014 20:45 ramon wrote:
my granddad tried it once and i threw a chair at him So basically, you deserved a slap but got away with it. On September 30 2014 20:11 Crushinator wrote:On September 30 2014 19:51 Foxxan wrote:
I got spanked by my mother a few times.
She looked very mad while doing it. Like she could not control her anger.
Why not teach the child with other means. Btw, if the person is angry while spanking, then its wrong to spank. Its wrong either way but it makes it double wrong. It is the calm and systematic abuse that makes me feel the most disgusted, but perhaps that is personal. Anyway the discussion is fairly pointless at this point, the pro-corporal punishment crowd cannot be reasoned with and violence against them is the only way to teach them its wrong. I have to agree, if people are completely calm and collected when they're doing it, that's pretty awful, I couldn't bring myself to hit anybody while i'm calm let alone a child.. Then on the other end of the spectrum if you're so angry your intent is to bring serious pain..that's awful too. If you lose your temper while spanking a kid you are an abusive parent, just like you would be if you yelled at him because he pissed you off. Spanking is done to discipline the child, it's just a harsher form of punishment than taking away his gaming console for a few days. Both are done to discipline the kid, not to satisfy your anger. (I don't like spanking btw, but the notion that you can't touch your kids or that violence in general "is never the answer" disgusts me as a naive view by sheltered people who have never faced violence themselves) You think shouting at your child when he does something wrong makes you an abusive parent? I'm sorry but i work in childcare and if a child does something wrong and fails to listen multiple times every single one of my co-workers (and ex) will raise their voice if the situation requires it, me included. I'm sure this is the same pretty much everywhere and we aren't even their parents. However i do not mean screaming viciously or in a threatening manner, that's probably what you meant? I think its sick that you could hit a child without being angered / upset by their actions. If you are completely lucid with them why do their actions require spanking in the first place? The thing is, there is a huge difference between being angry / upset enough to spank them and losing your temper / angrily spanking them with the intent to harm. *BTW I don't hit children in my workplace (or mistreat them :o), haven't and never will, i don't have my own children either i have just always been under the impression that if my children are deserving, they will be spanked as a form of severe discipline.
Yeah I meant screaming at them because of how you feel yourself.
Kid does something bad and we want to modify behavior, yelling is good.
GF broke up with you and you yell to a kid asking a question for no reason, yelling is bad.
Yeah ofc you are not a dead robot, you are pissed because the kid did something wrong. But you are not spanking because you are pissed, you are doing it to discipline the child. And you have not lost your temper in a way that may cause you to actually harm the kid.
So I guess we pretty much agree.
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Germany767 Posts
Surprising to me that the numbers are so high. I barely know anyone (I believe) whose parents did that.
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Spanking is for Sex, not for Children
Interesting article.
It discusses the origin and evolution of spanking. Pointing out that spanking is a sex act in both historical and biological contexts.
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On September 30 2014 23:38 PassiveAce wrote:Spanking is for Sex, not for ChildrenInteresting article. It discusses the origin and evolution of spanking. Pointing out that spanking is a sex act in both historical and biological contexts.
or, OR!The relationship between oxytocin and human sexual response is unclear.
and thenOxytocin is also thought to modulate inflammation by decreasing certain cytokines. Thus, the increased release in oxytocin following positive social interactions has the potential to improve wound healing.
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yeah i found the biological argument to be pretty specious (I dont know anything about hormones or biological chemicals) but I think the historical examples are pretty clear. I think spanking as a punishment instead of as an explicitly sexual act is a relatively new phenomenon. Which is pretty interesting imo.
we used to just hit kids anywhere but now wev localized it to the butt, despite longstanding historical precedent that its a sex act. i wonder why that is?
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On October 01 2014 01:15 PassiveAce wrote:
yeah i found the biological argument to be pretty specious (I dont know anything about hormones or biological chemicals) but I think the historical examples are pretty clear. I think spanking as a punishment instead of as an explicitly sexual act is a relatively new phenomenon.
Only under the strict definition that spanking is a light smack to the butt. Historically, parents have used corporal punishment since, well, ever.
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yeah wev hit kids forever but we didnt hit them exclusively on the butt. What im curious about is why its been localized to that specific area in the face of the historical context of its use as a sex act dating back to almost 500 BC and continuing through victorian england and beyond.
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On September 29 2014 16:40 nimbim wrote:
I wasn't spanked, but my parents slapped me in the face. My mother hit me until I asked her to stop (I was 7 or 8), she looked really upset when I said that. My father hit me until I tried to hit him back (around 13years old), the surprise on his face was priceless.
I always thought their behaviour was unreasonable and if I should ever have children, I hope I won't make the same mistake. How can you teach your child that violence is wrong and then use it on them? It's simply retarded.
To be fair, you explicitly said you weren't spanked, but this sounds like a good example of how not to discipline your child - how not to "spank" your child.
I and my wife spank our 2 year old, but only if she is expressing open defiance. If she spills her milk, or "tee tees" on accident, we just talk to her about it and give her encouragement. However, if I tell her to pick up her toys and she says "no," that's altogether different. I usually give her 2 or more chances, depending on the situation and depending on how defiant she has been recently, but if she keeps saying "no" or just flat out ignores us, she gets a spanking.
Spanking in our household:
I explain to her that what she did was wrong and that now she's getting a spanking because she didn't listen. We have a designated "tool" for the spanking. It's actually very close to an old paper towel holder with a little tape added because it started falling apart, hah. Sometimes, not always, she's upset that she's even getting a spanking and may start crying. In that case, I don't usually spank her that hard because she's already feeling the punishment and that is the whole point. After the spanking is over, I look her in the eyes and explain again what she did wrong, that she has to listen to mommy and daddy, and that's why she got a spanking. Then, I pick her up and hug her for an extended time and tell her I love her.
Most times before I'm even over it myself, she's already wanting to play again, looking at me with those mischievous eyes that a child does when they want to horseplay.
For anyone that may think, "Oh, you don't do that every time. Please." Yes, I do. I take disciplining my daughter very seriously because I believe I am helping her, not harming her. Her future is only made easier through our discipline, not more difficult.
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To be fair, you explicitly said you weren't spanked, but this sounds like a good example of how not to discipline your child - how not to "spank" your child.
This is like three quarters of the "spanking experiences" over the last few pages and at least half over the course of the whole thread.
On October 01 2014 01:23 danl9rm wrote:
Her future is only made easier through our discipline, not more difficult.
The good ol' "Whoever spares the rod hates their children"? Well it worked two thousand years ago, so it must be a great idea now. It doesn't actually seem to matter that there is no factual evidence that spanking actually does anything positive for your children.
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On October 01 2014 01:15 PassiveAce wrote:
yeah i found the biological argument to be pretty specious (I dont know anything about hormones or biological chemicals) but I think the historical examples are pretty clear. I think spanking as a punishment instead of as an explicitly sexual act is a relatively new phenomenon. Which is pretty interesting imo.
we used to just hit kids anywhere but now wev localized it to the butt, despite longstanding historical precedent that its a sex act. i wonder why that is?
don't know about that. it was at least tabu in any kind, form or shape of history as far as i know.
the localization happened for pragmatic reasons imo. the butt doesn't bruise easily, there are no bones to break, was readily accessible, it wouldn't hurt that bad(supposedly).
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Spanking has not just been taboo forever, it actually has a long history.
if you look through the article i linked you can find a etching from I think 490 BC depicting two dudes spanking a women. If you google "spanking in victorian england" you will find that it was a punishment that men would give to their wives that had very strong sexual tones. (often explicitly sexual.)
There are also paintings from the middle and dark ages in europe that depict spanking as explicitly sexual.
It wasnt used as a punishment for children in these eras, but it was used.
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I never had a 'formal' spanking, but earned a hand slap on the butt on more than one occasion.
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No, absolutely not and I find it wrong and terrible on all levels. Never strike a child.
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On September 30 2014 20:11 Crushinator wrote:
It is the calm and systematic abuse that makes me feel the most disgusted, but perhaps that is personal.
Anyway the discussion is fairly pointless at this point, the pro-corporal punishment crowd cannot be reasoned with and violence against them is the only way to teach them its wrong.
Same here. My father didn't really show anger when he gave us the belt- and this only made it even more confusing I think. When my schizophrenic mother accused us of whatever crazy ideas she drummed up, when we denied it it made her even more angry that she felt we were lying. When he got home, he calmly lined us up and belted out bare asses without listening to reason. If you guys want to know what effects this has on a kid, I can say for me it caused me to rebel big time. Started hanging out with the "bad crowd" at school, caused a lot of nervous issues and made me violent. Hell, I still bite my fingernails today. And of course, the last time my father went to hit me ended up with me tackling him and punching him in the face- dog turned on the master.
But yeah, that emotion-less violence which people advocate here is the more disturbing kind imo. Sort of like the serial killer that stands stoic and shows no remorse which our perverted justice system is so intrigued with to better understand etc.
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I vaguely recall being spanked once; don't even remember what for. Didn't really make any impact whatsoever. All I recall from it is that my parents where all formal about it, like this is a big moment (knowing my parents, my dad felt I deserved a reprimande for what I did; but my mom stopped him and they came up with a "spanking" (i probably deserved physical punishment, my dad's pretty damn good at knowing when a line has been crossed))
The time I remember incredibly vividly though was when I was about 9 years old and got into a big fight with my sister.
At one point she had her arms around my throat and i was hitting her on the head (like wtf); my dad stormed from his chair towards us when he heard the noise in the hall, towering with rage he picked us both up and kicked us against our butts up the stairs. Even though the kick was really soft (I could sit after it without pain); the fact that my dad put his mental rage to physical expression in a way that made us utterly aware of the fact that what we where doing was wrong.
Didn't fight with her again untill I hit puberty!
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On October 01 2014 03:04 Schwopzi wrote:
I vaguely recall being spanked once; don't even remember what for. Didn't really make any impact whatsoever. All I recall from it is that my parents where all formal about it, like this is a big moment (knowing my parents, my dad felt I deserved a reprimande for what I did; but my mom stopped him and they came up with a "spanking" (i probably deserved physical punishment, my dad's pretty damn good at knowing when a line has been crossed))
the umpire strikes back.
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On October 01 2014 02:40 ain wrote:
I never had a 'formal' spanking, but earned a hand slap on the butt on more than one occasion.
This is what I consider "formal" spanking. I don't agree that other "instruments" should be used when spanking a child.
When I got in trouble, there were generally 2 steps:
1. Explain what I did wrong and why it's wrong and to not do it anymore.
if I continued doing something wrong,
2. I was sent to my room until my dad got home and he would spank me (open palm 2-4 slaps)
and even if I what I did happened in the morning and my dad didn't get home until evening, I got spanked. It reinforced the idea that regardless of the time that has past, I will not escape punishment.
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That shit's been illegal here since 1979.
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On October 02 2014 01:00 Ercster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2014 02:40 ain wrote:
I never had a 'formal' spanking, but earned a hand slap on the butt on more than one occasion. This is what I consider "formal" spanking. I don't agree that other "instruments" should be used when spanking a child. When I got in trouble, there were generally 2 steps: 1. Explain what I did wrong and why it's wrong and to not do it anymore. if I continued doing something wrong, 2. I was sent to my room until my dad got home and he would spank me (open palm 2-4 slaps) and even if I what I did happened in the morning and my dad didn't get home until evening, I got spanked. It reinforced the idea that regardless of the time that has past, I will not escape punishment.
Huge improvement to the system of "OMG WTF must spank now *backhand*.
I was spanked when I knew I had done something wrong. If I legitimately did not know (and my parents were pretty good about knowing if I was lying) I was given an explanation and told not to do whatever it was. Seeing some of the things that people say, or even that my friends went through make me feel so fortunate for the way my parents raised me.
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Spanked with soap for foul language.
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Whoa, just spotted this thread and I'm quite shocked. I thought the majority of the developed nations' people would have overcome this :/
I can't see any benefit from spanking or slapping or punishing a child physically in general. I know many people who weren't spanked and they're all as good/bad at different things as anybody else. So my conclusion: in the end, spanking does nothing than hurt - and maybe not only physically.
The modern ways of parenting really proved this kind of punishments as useless many decades ago. Not only as useless but also often as harmful to the psyche and the child-parent-relationship.
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Got a face slap once and it was hard enough so that I got a nose bleed, but that´s all I ever got. Looked worse than it felt
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I always wonder if children like Avilo and Idra were spanked as they were kids.
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Never. Seems like not-europe is barbaric in this regard.
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On September 20 2014 13:51 eviltomahawk wrote:
I once got spanked with chopsticks when I was 5. It definitely stung, but I'm pretty sure I deserved it.
This is the tragedy of the guys who got spanked: They try to justify it.
Was wasn't spanked with a rod, but with the hand and don't think one can 'deserve' it. I remember it not only as injustice, but also – and that really hurt, dawg – absence of love from my parents.
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On October 15 2014 06:45 Maxie wrote:
Never. Seems like not-europe is barbaric in this regard.
I don't know... My friend has the last name Thilliez and he got slapped for interrupting his dad. This was in front of the entire dinner party. He was born in France and moved here when he was 4ish. This event occurred at 12.
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On October 15 2014 06:51 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 13:51 eviltomahawk wrote:
I once got spanked with chopsticks when I was 5. It definitely stung, but I'm pretty sure I deserved it. This is the tragedy of the guys who got spanked: They try to justify it. Was wasn't spanked with a rod, but with the hand and don't think one can 'deserve' it. I remember it not only as injustice, but also – and that really hurt, dawg – absence of love from my parents.
Did you take getting your inoculations as an absence of love from your parents? Those can hurt a lot, especially to a child.
Causing minor pain is not always a bad thing.
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Yeah those two are roughly the same kind of thing.
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Canada11350 Posts
On October 01 2014 02:49 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2014 20:11 Crushinator wrote:
It is the calm and systematic abuse that makes me feel the most disgusted, but perhaps that is personal.
Anyway the discussion is fairly pointless at this point, the pro-corporal punishment crowd cannot be reasoned with and violence against them is the only way to teach them its wrong. Same here. My father didn't really show anger when he gave us the belt- and this only made it even more confusing I think. When my schizophrenic mother accused us of whatever crazy ideas she drummed up, when we denied it it made her even more angry that she felt we were lying. When he got home, he calmly lined us up and belted out bare asses without listening to reason. If you guys want to know what effects this has on a kid, I can say for me it caused me to rebel big time. Started hanging out with the "bad crowd" at school, caused a lot of nervous issues and made me violent. Hell, I still bite my fingernails today. And of course, the last time my father went to hit me ended up with me tackling him and punching him in the face- dog turned on the master. But yeah, that emotion-less violence which people advocate here is the more disturbing kind imo. Sort of like the serial killer that stands stoic and shows no remorse which our perverted justice system is so intrigued with to better understand etc.
That might be the proximate cause, but I suspect that the ultimate cause is: When my schizophrenic mother accused us of whatever crazy ideas she drummed up, when we denied it it made her even more angry that she felt we were lying. Any form of discipline would be unjust punishment. I can't imagine what that would be like, but consistent unjust punishment without the ability to appeal would mess with any child.
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On October 15 2014 09:48 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 06:51 [F_]aths wrote:On September 20 2014 13:51 eviltomahawk wrote:
I once got spanked with chopsticks when I was 5. It definitely stung, but I'm pretty sure I deserved it. This is the tragedy of the guys who got spanked: They try to justify it. Was wasn't spanked with a rod, but with the hand and don't think one can 'deserve' it. I remember it not only as injustice, but also – and that really hurt, dawg – absence of love from my parents. Did you take getting your inoculations as an absence of love from your parents? Those can hurt a lot, especially to a child. Causing minor pain is not always a bad thing.
Having to resort to physical violence to teach someone who is likely at least two decades younger than you something is most definitely a bad thing
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On October 15 2014 11:58 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 09:48 Millitron wrote:On October 15 2014 06:51 [F_]aths wrote:On September 20 2014 13:51 eviltomahawk wrote:
I once got spanked with chopsticks when I was 5. It definitely stung, but I'm pretty sure I deserved it. This is the tragedy of the guys who got spanked: They try to justify it. Was wasn't spanked with a rod, but with the hand and don't think one can 'deserve' it. I remember it not only as injustice, but also – and that really hurt, dawg – absence of love from my parents. Did you take getting your inoculations as an absence of love from your parents? Those can hurt a lot, especially to a child. Causing minor pain is not always a bad thing. Having to resort to physical violence to teach someone who is likely at least two decades younger than you something is most definitely a bad thing I really wonder sometime who the children are here discussing this and who are the grown ups discussing this. It's really the wildest pop psychology epidemic saying the real reason parents spank is they're feeling powerless and forced to resort to physical violence. I mean, damn, anybody around here had a real stinging swat that didn't draw blood and only hurt a little sitting down on it for like an hour? I'm kind of feeling spoiled children is the new virtue, because at least you know their loving parents never spanked them!
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United States24683 Posts
I have seen a great many children whose parents refused to spank at all under any circumstances, who were also undisciplined insufferable brats. I think not spanking your child is a very good goal, and for many children you can accomplish this with basic parenting. I'm not convinced this is viable for all parents and all children.
On the other hand, anything beyond an open-palmed smack on a non-exposed area is becoming abuse.
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On October 15 2014 12:24 Danglars wrote:
I really wonder sometime who the children are here discussing this and who are the grown ups discussing this. It's really the wildest pop psychology epidemic saying the real reason parents spank is they're feeling powerless and forced to resort to physical violence
It's actually just called being a reasonable person. Since when are anger and physical aggressiveness considered signs of authority?
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@Danglars
The point would be, that those parents are powerless - if they consciously feel that way is secondary.
I'm kind of feeling spoiled children is the new virtue, because at least you know their loving parents never spanked them! Accusing younger generation of being spoiled because of too mild parenting is a really old tradition. It's documented since the antiquity. I can't see how this can be an argument in this topic at all.
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Interesting how people who got spanked are actually defending that sort of behaviour. Reminds me of the circumsision thread. Nobody wants to grow up to realize that something fucked up happened to them and in many cases they are going to do the same shit to their children to solidify their belief that it is OK behaviour or to take back the power that was taken from them as children. It's the same thing with child abuse and rape. It is cyclical, people who get abused as children are likely to abuse their own children. Very sad.
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On October 15 2014 13:59 Animzor wrote:
Interesting how people who got spanked are actually defending that sort of behaviour. Reminds me of the circumsision thread. Nobody wants to grow up to realize that something fucked up happened to them and in many cases they are going to do the same shit to their children to solidify their belief that it is OK behaviour or to take back the power that was taken from them as children. It's the same thing with child abuse and rape. It is cyclical, people who get abused as children are likely to abuse their own children. Very sad.
lol this is such a bullshit post. basically what youre trying to say is everyone on tl that has been spanked is mentally traumatized but they refuse to admit it. get your head out of your ass. most people here who have been spanked has no problems with it because they know that showing discipline isnt the end of the world. its not denial, its the truth.
as stated multiple times already in this thread, i hardly think spanking is the problem for children growing up with problems. it all comes down to whether or not they feel loved by their parents. parents who spank kids are still capable of showing their kids huge amounts of love, at which point the spanking becomes nothing more than a disciplinary act. parents who dont show love to their children, regardless of whether they hit them or not, will end up with kids that are weird because theyll treat others with the same amount of love that they received from their parents.
but i will say one thing. i also feel that the younger generations are extremely spoilt and undisciplined. generations before mine probably thought of my generation the same way, but nowadays with stricter laws on child discipline and such i cant help but feel that the limitations on how a parent is allowed to discipline their child has led to children nowadays feeling like they can do whatever the fk they want and get away with it. i dont believe anyone has the right to tell a parent how to discipline their child, except for the child him/herself. obviously there has to be a line drawn, but nowadays when parents are getting questioned because a teacher found out that their student was given a light spanking last night, i think its pathetic how soft everyone has gotten
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On October 15 2014 13:59 Animzor wrote:
Interesting how people who got spanked are actually defending that sort of behaviour. Reminds me of the circumsision thread. Nobody wants to grow up to realize that something fucked up happened to them and in many cases they are going to do the same shit to their children to solidify their belief that it is OK behaviour or to take back the power that was taken from them as children. It's the same thing with child abuse and rape. It is cyclical, people who get abused as children are likely to abuse their own children. Very sad.
This is bullshit. You're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of no longer adding anything useful to the discussion.
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On October 15 2014 06:51 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 13:51 eviltomahawk wrote:
I once got spanked with chopsticks when I was 5. It definitely stung, but I'm pretty sure I deserved it. This is the tragedy of the guys who got spanked: They try to justify it. Was wasn't spanked with a rod, but with the hand and don't think one can 'deserve' it. I remember it not only as injustice, but also – and that really hurt, dawg – absence of love from my parents.
If your parents clothed you, fed you, met most of the necessities of life but happened to spank you, that can't be deemed as them not loving you. An example of parents not loving you would be if something like what happened to Victor Ortiz happened to you. Victor Ortiz was abandoned as a child by both of his parents, now that is something you can call not being loved by your parents.
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On October 15 2014 14:21 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 13:59 Animzor wrote:
Interesting how people who got spanked are actually defending that sort of behaviour. Reminds me of the circumsision thread. Nobody wants to grow up to realize that something fucked up happened to them and in many cases they are going to do the same shit to their children to solidify their belief that it is OK behaviour or to take back the power that was taken from them as children. It's the same thing with child abuse and rape. It is cyclical, people who get abused as children are likely to abuse their own children. Very sad. lol this is such a bullshit post. basically what youre trying to say is everyone on tl that has been spanked is mentally traumatized but they refuse to admit it. get your head out of your ass. most people here who have been spanked has no problems with it because they know that showing discipline isnt the end of the world. its not denial, its the truth. as stated multiple times already in this thread, i hardly think spanking is the problem for children growing up with problems. it all comes down to whether or not they feel loved by their parents. parents who spank kids are still capable of showing their kids huge amounts of love, at which point the spanking becomes nothing more than a disciplinary act. parents who dont show love to their children, regardless of whether they hit them or not, will end up with kids that are weird because theyll treat others with the same amount of love that they received from their parents. but i will say one thing. i also feel that the younger generations are extremely spoilt and undisciplined. generations before mine probably thought of my generation the same way, but nowadays with stricter laws on child discipline and such i cant help but feel that the limitations on how a parent is allowed to discipline their child has led to children nowadays feeling like they can do whatever the fk they want and get away with it. i dont believe anyone has the right to tell a parent how to discipline their child, except for the child him/herself. obviously there has to be a line drawn, but nowadays when parents are getting questioned because a teacher found out that their student was given a light spanking last night, i think its pathetic how soft everyone has gotten
I have to agree with this and add that behavior is controlled through measured amounts of pleasure and pain. Trying to control behavior by just giving kids rewards for good deeds and not punishing them for bad deeds does not work, I know because I have tried it.
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It works on dogs. Those irrational animals.
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Haven't read through the thread, but I'm pretty sure if we were to separate Western and Eastern Europe, the polls would be different. For me, someone getting spanked is nothing unusual. I'm not saying everyone I know have been spanked, but it's not rare at all, and our parents lived in a much more hellish world. It's crazy how my grandparents treated ill behaviour, and I'm inclined to think it has to do something with the communist regime and it's mentality; after all, it was a world when police would beat the shit out of you for no good reason.
Anyway, I couldn't remember if I was spanked or not, until I started reading this thread, then the feeling of helplessness struck me, so thanks TL for releasing a forever to be hidden wound! I don't know who spanked me, but I doubt it happened more than a couple of times, and even then, I'm 90% sure it was my mom, who would never had hurt me seriously so yeah. Being helpless howewer, is a terrible feeling, and I'm not sure why would anyone encourage it. I'm fine with the occasional slaps, I remember all my slaps - there weren't many, but god, were they memorable!
edit: Isn't it interesting that the majority of us says we won't treat our children the same way our parents did with us, but it's probably the same exact thing our parents thought? To be honest, it scares me.
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It is always scary to me that in most of these discussion of spanking vs no spanking, the people who suffered getting spanked or even beat by their parents are really strong about them not wanting to do the same to their kids.
At the same time the people who werent spanked as kids or beaten often have views that this is why kids "nowadays" are spoiled and they believe a spanking is neccesary.
I really find that scary and thought provoking.
Also another point. The debate about beating vs spanking or pain vs shock.
Both are equally bad to me. The pain part becuase it reminds of torture (of kids by the ones that are supposed to love you). The shock part becuase this is basically psycological terror, inducing fear in a child to control them. Doesn't sound like a very healthy way to make a balanced person.
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If you consider a couple of slaps on the face or butt spanking, than yeah.
By the way is Turkey considered in Asia of in Europe in these kind of polls because results are highly different
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My mum didn't let my dad belt me after the first time, but I got hit whenever I did something stupid, which I deserved. And what he did to his child is actually very normal back in the day, Arnold Shwarzanegger stated that what he endured as a child would be classified as child abuse today, what every child his age endured. Still, just a little overboard for today's standards. I prefer the role model parent and a slap/spank when it's needed
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Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it.
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On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it.
Well I wasn't slapped even once, and I'm pretty sure it's the same for almost all of my friends.
And it turned out very well for them :D. Well educated, good jobs, good relationships, well behaved.
Also I'd like to point out this article frome the University of New Hampshire
Correlation between spanking and IQ. It seems you actually can slap your children silly :/
http://phys.org/news173077612.html
The two main findings in case of tldr. More and explanation inside the article
IQs of children ages 2 to 4 who were not spanked were 5 points higher four years later than the IQs of those who were spanked. The IQs of children ages 5 to 9 years old who were not spanked were 2.8 points higher four years later than the IQs of children the same age who were spanked.
Straus also found a lower national average IQ in nations in which spanking was more prevalent. His analysis indicates the strongest link between corporal punishment and IQ was for those whose parents continued to use corporal punishment even when they were teenagers.
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Let's not compare 3-4 slaps as you reach the age 18 with constant slapping and spanking as punishments.
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On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it.
Education should involve punishment but that does not have to be in the form of violence. We try to tell our kids that violence is bad and then we use it ourselfes if they do something that we don´t like? Isn´t that a contradiction? Teaching them that it is okay to hit someone who is weaker then them to get what they want?
There are many other methods in my experience ranging from taking away toys, refusing to take them out to things they enjoy, doing additional housework, don´t allow them invite friends etc.
My parents never hit me in any way or form and I think I turned out pretty well.
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On October 15 2014 20:44 Aikin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Education should involve punishment but that does not have to be in the form of violence. We try to tell our kids that violence is bad and then we use it ourselfes if they do something that we don´t like? Isn´t that a contradiction? Teaching them that it is okay to hit someone who is weaker then them to get what they want? There are many other methods in my experience ranging from taking away toys, refusing to take them out to things they enjoy, doing additional housework, don´t allow them invite friends etc. My parents never hit me in any way or form and I think I turned out pretty well.
Listen to yourself for a moment. You were depraved from what you enjoy, even social interactions with your FRIENDS. How is it less cruel than getting slapped in every 5 years?
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On October 15 2014 21:00 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 20:44 Aikin wrote:On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Education should involve punishment but that does not have to be in the form of violence. We try to tell our kids that violence is bad and then we use it ourselfes if they do something that we don´t like? Isn´t that a contradiction? Teaching them that it is okay to hit someone who is weaker then them to get what they want? There are many other methods in my experience ranging from taking away toys, refusing to take them out to things they enjoy, doing additional housework, don´t allow them invite friends etc. My parents never hit me in any way or form and I think I turned out pretty well. Listen to yourself for a moment. You were depraved from what you enjoy, even social interactions with your FRIENDS. How is it less cruel than getting slapped in every 5 years?
troll?
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On October 01 2014 01:23 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2014 16:40 nimbim wrote:
I wasn't spanked, but my parents slapped me in the face. My mother hit me until I asked her to stop (I was 7 or 8), she looked really upset when I said that. My father hit me until I tried to hit him back (around 13years old), the surprise on his face was priceless.
I always thought their behaviour was unreasonable and if I should ever have children, I hope I won't make the same mistake. How can you teach your child that violence is wrong and then use it on them? It's simply retarded. To be fair, you explicitly said you weren't spanked, but this sounds like a good example of how not to discipline your child - how not to "spank" your child. I and my wife spank our 2 year old, but only if she is expressing open defiance. If she spills her milk, or "tee tees" on accident, we just talk to her about it and give her encouragement. However, if I tell her to pick up her toys and she says "no," that's altogether different. I usually give her 2 or more chances, depending on the situation and depending on how defiant she has been recently, but if she keeps saying "no" or just flat out ignores us, she gets a spanking. Spanking in our household: I explain to her that what she did was wrong and that now she's getting a spanking because she didn't listen. We have a designated "tool" for the spanking. It's actually very close to an old paper towel holder with a little tape added because it started falling apart, hah. Sometimes, not always, she's upset that she's even getting a spanking and may start crying. In that case, I don't usually spank her that hard because she's already feeling the punishment and that is the whole point. After the spanking is over, I look her in the eyes and explain again what she did wrong, that she has to listen to mommy and daddy, and that's why she got a spanking. Then, I pick her up and hug her for an extended time and tell her I love her. Most times before I'm even over it myself, she's already wanting to play again, looking at me with those mischievous eyes that a child does when they want to horseplay. For anyone that may think, "Oh, you don't do that every time. Please." Yes, I do. I take disciplining my daughter very seriously because I believe I am helping her, not harming her. Her future is only made easier through our discipline, not more difficult.
you make me sick and i think you shouldnt be allowed to be around children
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On October 15 2014 21:08 calmasfok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 21:00 Volband wrote:On October 15 2014 20:44 Aikin wrote:On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Education should involve punishment but that does not have to be in the form of violence. We try to tell our kids that violence is bad and then we use it ourselfes if they do something that we don´t like? Isn´t that a contradiction? Teaching them that it is okay to hit someone who is weaker then them to get what they want? There are many other methods in my experience ranging from taking away toys, refusing to take them out to things they enjoy, doing additional housework, don´t allow them invite friends etc. My parents never hit me in any way or form and I think I turned out pretty well. Listen to yourself for a moment. You were depraved from what you enjoy, even social interactions with your FRIENDS. How is it less cruel than getting slapped in every 5 years? troll?
No? Unless he said he does not agree with those things either, but the way he worded, I interpreted it as that he rather do those things instead.
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@Volband and Aikin
It's questionable if parenting needs punishment at all. Education as a whole may need it (I can't imagine school or kindergarden without it). But I remember that for me a change in the tone and strict eyes or face were quite displeasing. One could say, that this alone was a punishment in itself, but in the narrower sense I wouldn't classify this as "punishment".
@calmasfok
Yeah, I was almost disgusted by that, too. To spank a 2 year old sounds fundamentally wrong.
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On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it.
Because it is outlawed and virtually not practised in countries like Sweden for over 40 years now. So given the fact that Sweden is still a pretty civlized country full of apparently happy people, I'd say that's plenty of empirical evidence that you don't actually need to physically punish your children, as generations of people have already grown up without it.
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Depends on culture and individual cases.
For some kids a spanking is good, for others its not.
Some countrys need a lot of spanking in general and some countrys can do with less spanking.
I was spanked as a child, not often btw maybe 3 or 4 times max after I did something realy bad.
It did not in anyway negatively effect my life.
Some childs need punishment, arguing and explaining patiently why things are bad and good works for some children but not for every child. Every situation is different.
Parents who spank their kids on a weekly basis are doing something wrong though.
Btw, even though that I think spanking can be ok in some situations I would nor could ever spank a child myself,not even if it would lead to good results in the end.
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On October 16 2014 01:11 Rassy wrote:
I was spanked as a child, not often btw maybe 3 or 4 times max after I did something realy bad.
It did not in anyway negatively effect my life.
how do you know? nobody knows how he/she would have turned out the other way (yes, i made the anecdotical evidence mistake too)
the why studys like the one I quoted are so important
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On October 16 2014 00:56 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Because it is outlawed and virtually not practised in countries like Sweden for over 40 years now. So given the fact that Sweden is still a pretty civlized country full of apparently happy people, I'd say that's plenty of empirical evidence that you don't actually need to physically punish your children, as generations of people have already grown up without it.
Something being the law doesn't mean its right. Segregation was the law from 1865 to the 1960's.
Unless you'd like to argue that Rosa Parks didn't need to sit at the front of the bus. I mean, generations of people had already grown up without black people sitting at the front of the bus.
On October 16 2014 01:22 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 01:11 Rassy wrote:
I was spanked as a child, not often btw maybe 3 or 4 times max after I did something realy bad.
It did not in anyway negatively effect my life.
how do you know? nobody knows how he/she would have turned out the other way (yes, i made the anecdotical evidence mistake too) the why studys like the one i quoted are so important
The same is true of those studies then too. Maybe the people who weren't spanked would have turned out better if they had been. Maybe the ones who showed negative effects would've ended up with them anyways. These studies are nothing more than lots of anecdotal evidence.
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On October 16 2014 01:26 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 00:56 Nyxisto wrote:On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Because it is outlawed and virtually not practised in countries like Sweden for over 40 years now. So given the fact that Sweden is still a pretty civlized country full of apparently happy people, I'd say that's plenty of empirical evidence that you don't actually need to physically punish your children, as generations of people have already grown up without it. Something being the law doesn't mean its right. Segregation was the law from 1865 to the 1960's. Unless you'd like to argue that Rosa Parks didn't need to sit at the front of the bus. I mean, generations of people had already grown up without black people sitting at the front of the bus. Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 01:22 Snotling wrote:On October 16 2014 01:11 Rassy wrote:
I was spanked as a child, not often btw maybe 3 or 4 times max after I did something realy bad.
It did not in anyway negatively effect my life.
how do you know? nobody knows how he/she would have turned out the other way (yes, i made the anecdotical evidence mistake too) the why studys like the one i quoted are so important The same is true of those studies then too. Maybe the people who weren't spanked would have turned out better if they had been. Maybe the ones who showed negative effects would've ended up with them anyways. These studies are nothing more than lots of anecdotal evidence.
Comparing the development of hundreds (and thousands) of people its not anecdotical evidence anymore. And even if the spanking isnt the reason for the lower iqs, the parents that spank must have something else in common that hampers the developement of their children.
I mean there is a reason that the countries with the best education, are the one were corporal punishment of children is illegal.
If you just ignore every study that doesnt fit your point of fiew as anecdotical evidence, there is not much point talking with you at all. (please feel free to post any cientifical evidence that spanking is beneficial to children)
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On October 16 2014 01:26 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 00:56 Nyxisto wrote:On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Because it is outlawed and virtually not practised in countries like Sweden for over 40 years now. So given the fact that Sweden is still a pretty civlized country full of apparently happy people, I'd say that's plenty of empirical evidence that you don't actually need to physically punish your children, as generations of people have already grown up without it. Something being the law doesn't mean its right. Segregation was the law from 1865 to the 1960's. Unless you'd like to argue that Rosa Parks didn't need to sit at the front of the bus. I mean, generations of people had already grown up without black people sitting at the front of the bus.
I clearly did not argue that it is right because it is the law, but it is right because Sweden is one of the most liveable places on this planet and it has been working there for decades. It is like arguing whether a single payer healthcare system is a great idea or not. It is. Why? Because it has been employed successfully for decades. "The American way" is not a trump card over reality.
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On October 16 2014 01:26 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 00:56 Nyxisto wrote:On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Because it is outlawed and virtually not practised in countries like Sweden for over 40 years now. So given the fact that Sweden is still a pretty civlized country full of apparently happy people, I'd say that's plenty of empirical evidence that you don't actually need to physically punish your children, as generations of people have already grown up without it. Something being the law doesn't mean its right. Segregation was the law from 1865 to the 1960's. Unless you'd like to argue that Rosa Parks didn't need to sit at the front of the bus. I mean, generations of people had already grown up without black people sitting at the front of the bus.
The argument isn't that it is right not to spank your children because it is the law (in which case your counterargument makes plenty sense).
The argument is that unlike what Volband stated, a slap isn't definitely needed as examplified by Sweden not going all to shit when spanking was outlawed. Considering that it is a nationwide example, across all social layers, it is probably safe to say that spanking isn't needed to raise children into happy and productive citizens.
I personally don't buy the cultural argument that has been raised. Sweden (and Denmark/Norway) had a culture of physical punishment before outlawing it. If it was possible for these countries to go from physical punishment to no physical punishment it should be possible for other countries as well.
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On October 16 2014 01:41 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 01:26 Millitron wrote:On October 16 2014 00:56 Nyxisto wrote:On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Because it is outlawed and virtually not practised in countries like Sweden for over 40 years now. So given the fact that Sweden is still a pretty civlized country full of apparently happy people, I'd say that's plenty of empirical evidence that you don't actually need to physically punish your children, as generations of people have already grown up without it. Something being the law doesn't mean its right. Segregation was the law from 1865 to the 1960's. Unless you'd like to argue that Rosa Parks didn't need to sit at the front of the bus. I mean, generations of people had already grown up without black people sitting at the front of the bus. I clearly did not argue that it is right because it is the law, but it is right because Sweden is one of the most liveable places on this planet and it has been working there for decades. It is like arguing whether a single payer healthcare system is a great idea or not. It is. Why? Because it has been employed successfully for decades. "The American way" is not a trump card over reality.
And America was one of the most liveable places on the planet, and had been for decades when Segregation was in its prime.
Sweden being good has nothing to do with spanking or the lack thereof.
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Segregated America was a very liveable place for black people?Because if you want to try to tell me that a country is a great place for the people that are currently not being beaten then I have to say, wow sir you are a genius! The fact that children are growing up very well without spanking is not evidence that children grow up well without spanking?
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On October 16 2014 01:47 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 01:41 Nyxisto wrote:On October 16 2014 01:26 Millitron wrote:On October 16 2014 00:56 Nyxisto wrote:On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Because it is outlawed and virtually not practised in countries like Sweden for over 40 years now. So given the fact that Sweden is still a pretty civlized country full of apparently happy people, I'd say that's plenty of empirical evidence that you don't actually need to physically punish your children, as generations of people have already grown up without it. Something being the law doesn't mean its right. Segregation was the law from 1865 to the 1960's. Unless you'd like to argue that Rosa Parks didn't need to sit at the front of the bus. I mean, generations of people had already grown up without black people sitting at the front of the bus. I clearly did not argue that it is right because it is the law, but it is right because Sweden is one of the most liveable places on this planet and it has been working there for decades. It is like arguing whether a single payer healthcare system is a great idea or not. It is. Why? Because it has been employed successfully for decades. "The American way" is not a trump card over reality. And America was one of the most liveable places on the planet, and had been for decades when Segregation was in its prime. Sweden being good has nothing to do with spanking or the lack thereof.
that must be one of the stupidest things i have ever read on the internet..... please rethink that^^
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On October 15 2014 19:53 Snotling wrote:Also I'd like to point out this article frome the University of New Hampshire Correlation between spanking and IQ. It seems you actually can slap your children silly :/ http://phys.org/news173077612.htmlThe two main findings in case of tldr. More and explanation inside the article Show nested quote +IQs of children ages 2 to 4 who were not spanked were 5 points higher four years later than the IQs of those who were spanked. The IQs of children ages 5 to 9 years old who were not spanked were 2.8 points higher four years later than the IQs of children the same age who were spanked. Show nested quote +Straus also found a lower national average IQ in nations in which spanking was more prevalent. His analysis indicates the strongest link between corporal punishment and IQ was for those whose parents continued to use corporal punishment even when they were teenagers.
Correlation != causation.
Secondarily, perhaps those with lower IQ's (a flawed test of intelligence, at best) are more prone to violence towards their misbehaving children. Generally speaking, you're not going to have an intelligent offspring from a pair of unintelligent parents.
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Correlation!=Causation is not an argument to dismiss empirical evidence and scientific research. Jesus why does this come up in every thread.
And your second statement is only true for affluent families, as http://pss.sagepub.com/content/14/6/623 this research suggests.
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On October 16 2014 02:45 Nyxisto wrote:Correlation!=Causation is not an argument to dismiss empirical evidence and scientific research. Jesus why does this come up in every thread. And your second statement is only true for affluent families, as http://pss.sagepub.com/content/14/6/623 this research suggests.
I hear numerous suggestions but see no abstracts. If you're going to make a statement, the burden of proof is upon you.
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I never got spanked. Probably my parents didn't want me to learn that violence is ok. In my late childhood/early "adulthood" I've gotten hit and beaten up many times, but I never have hit the attacker back.
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On October 16 2014 02:48 Zerste wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 02:45 Nyxisto wrote:Correlation!=Causation is not an argument to dismiss empirical evidence and scientific research. Jesus why does this come up in every thread. And your second statement is only true for affluent families, as http://pss.sagepub.com/content/14/6/623 this research suggests. I hear numerous suggestions but see no abstracts. If you're going to make a statement, the burden of proof is upon you.
The thread is already full of proof that spanking is not doing anything good for your children, or what are you asking for?
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On October 16 2014 03:13 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 02:48 Zerste wrote:On October 16 2014 02:45 Nyxisto wrote:Correlation!=Causation is not an argument to dismiss empirical evidence and scientific research. Jesus why does this come up in every thread. And your second statement is only true for affluent families, as http://pss.sagepub.com/content/14/6/623 this research suggests. I hear numerous suggestions but see no abstracts. If you're going to make a statement, the burden of proof is upon you. The thread is already full of proof that spanking is not doing anything good for your children, or what are you asking for?
I'm not saying that spanking is good for anybody, parents included. I'm stating that saying something like "It seems you actually can slap your children silly :/" is ill informed and irresponsible at best.
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On September 30 2014 02:10 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I've not seen a succinct case for 'how to discipline' so I guess I'm going to add my 2 cents.
1. The child should be given a chance to behave first. (TALK to the child: "I understand that you are upset but you cannot hit your sister. Nobody likes to be hit, and so you shouldn't hit either. Your sister is part of our family and family loves each other").
2. Discipline should be preceded by a clear warning: "You know that you aren't supposed to do that, now you have a choice. You can chose to do the right thing, or you can chose the wrong thing that leads to discipline."
3. Discipline should never be done in anger. Calmly talk to the child and make it clear that the discipline is a result of their choices. "I'm sorry that you made that bad choice to hit your sister again and chose discipline."
4. Discipline should be consistent. You cannot say that their choice will have consequences and then back out or bargain. This sends mixed messages to the child and is very negative.
5. Discipline should be followed by love. After discipline, you make it clear to the child that you love them and have a time of hugging/affection. Also maybe a good time to re-emphasize the lesson: "Families love each other and your sister is part of your family. We don't hit people, especially family."
Notice that I did not specifically say that the discipline is "spanking" although it can be. Discipline for different children is different. One child might wilt if you look at him with disapproval while another may be very strong-willed and rebellious. Substituting "spanking" for discipline above should not be a first response, but may be necessary with some children. All this, wish a particular emphasis on the warning. Discipline for rebellion and not mistakes or the usual sibling framing/tattling. If you're going to continually threaten spanking and never go through with it, might as well not spank at all. You probably put it better than I could've showing the stepwise purposes and pitfalls with the swat.
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On October 15 2014 19:53 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 19:23 Volband wrote:
Slap is definitely needed. If someone thinks a child can be raised (roperly) without getting slapped at all... well, I'd certainly like to hear his/her arguement for it. Well I wasn't slapped even once, and I'm pretty sure it's the same for almost all of my friends. And it turned out very well for them :D. Well educated, good jobs, good relationships, well behaved. Also I'd like to point out this article frome the University of New Hampshire Correlation between spanking and IQ. It seems you actually can slap your children silly :/ http://phys.org/news173077612.htmlThe two main findings in case of tldr. More and explanation inside the article Show nested quote +IQs of children ages 2 to 4 who were not spanked were 5 points higher four years later than the IQs of those who were spanked. The IQs of children ages 5 to 9 years old who were not spanked were 2.8 points higher four years later than the IQs of children the same age who were spanked. Show nested quote +Straus also found a lower national average IQ in nations in which spanking was more prevalent. His analysis indicates the strongest link between corporal punishment and IQ was for those whose parents continued to use corporal punishment even when they were teenagers.
You can obviously find un-spanked children who grew up well (like you and your friends). I'm sure there well grown up spanked children around aswell.
That study is worthless, it's a correlational study.
You can argue that smarter kids behave better/are smarter at hiding their misdeed, so dumber kids end up getting more spanked. (You are implying less spanking creates smarter children, when the opposite is perfectly reasonable. In my opinion the second explanation is WAYYYY more likely)
Punishment to kids should be done with the aim to discipline them with the belief you are making their lives better on the future. This is love.
Punishment to kids because you lost your temper without reason is abuse, and the trait of a weak minded person.
I also think (spanking or not) people who are not willing to discipline their children will end up with spoil brats and regret it in the future.
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You can argue that smarter kids behave better/are smarter at hiding their misdeed, so dumber kids end up getting more spanked.
I highly doubt that. Considering that highly gifted people often do have great problems with authorities and underchallenge, which can lead into behavioural disorder, I assume that smartness doesn't save you from punishment.
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On October 15 2014 15:21 tshi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 13:59 Animzor wrote:
Interesting how people who got spanked are actually defending that sort of behaviour. Reminds me of the circumsision thread. Nobody wants to grow up to realize that something fucked up happened to them and in many cases they are going to do the same shit to their children to solidify their belief that it is OK behaviour or to take back the power that was taken from them as children. It's the same thing with child abuse and rape. It is cyclical, people who get abused as children are likely to abuse their own children. Very sad. This is bullshit. You're oversimplifying a complex situation to the point of no longer adding anything useful to the discussion.
I just ended the discussion, refuse to believe it if you wish.
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you didnt end anything, you just made yourself look ignorant and rude
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I think the law prohibits parents from hitting their children here as well. Doesn't hold back anyone, it's basically just there, so child abuse is more easily judgeable. Also, I'm pretty sure in Sweden households, most families are not spending their days estimating whether they will need some extra loan at the end of the month or not. If the average salary in E-Uropean countries were 3 times more, I'm sure parents would be much more patient with their children.
Anyway, imagine this scenario: your boy is throwing a tantrum in a kid store, because he wants that lego. He's crying, shouting, calling his mother (aka your wife) all kinds of bad things (how do they learn these so young... I don't know), maybe even starts to throw things around, because he's convinced he deserves it. What do you do?
Buy the lego? Even if your wallet is endless, you'll suffer with that child in the future?
Try to reason with him? Yeah, I think it's been discussed plenty here that you can't reason with a little kid. There's a reason you don't see 4 years old voting during elections.
Shout at him? Maybe it doesn't seem harmful, but I'm certainly someone who takes shouting really badly.
Hit him? He will stop (except the crying part) and now follow you. Sure, you hurt him; you used violence. But the next time the thought of doing such a show again, he'll remember it, and probably won'T do it. Also, you can always try to explain it later, you don't have to leave it at "you can'T do that because I'll hit you hard".
Drag him out/Ignore him? Yes, please. There's nothing more pleasant than traveling with parents who use this technique. The best part is when someone asks them to tone their children down a bit and they are offended that someone is trying to tell them how to raise their child.
Never understood the fuss about slaps. Me and my friends all have stories of being slapped, but almost all of them can be summed up with "I was really bad/stupid" + a good laugh.
All of this being said, I don't think I'd ever slap my children, it would be too hard on me, but I don't judge anyone for it. Being careless and utterly selfish at a young age is certainly not unheard of, and it's extremely hard on single dads/moms. Your teen might respect what you do to them and help you at wherever he/she can, but a 5 years old just sees that lego and wants it. You can't expect someone who spends his days eating, playing and sleeping to understand that you keep working extra, you have to make arrangements with the repair-man, you have to cook for him, you have to take care of the money and on top of that, you need some rest.
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On October 16 2014 23:18 Volband wrote:
I think the law prohibits parents from hitting their children here as well. Doesn't hold back anyone, it's basically just there, so child abuse is more easily judgeable. Also, I'm pretty sure in Sweden households, most families are not spending their days estimating whether they will need some extra loan at the end of the month or not. If the average salary in E-Uropean countries were 3 times more, I'm sure parents would be much more patient with their children.
Anyway, imagine this scenario: your boy is throwing a tantrum in a kid store, because he wants that lego. He's crying, shouting, calling his mother (aka your wife) all kinds of bad things (how do they learn these so young... I don't know), maybe even starts to throw things around, because he's convinced he deserves it. What do you do?
Buy the lego? Even if your wallet is endless, you'll suffer with that child in the future?
Try to reason with him? Yeah, I think it's been discussed plenty here that you can't reason with a little kid. There's a reason you don't see 4 years old voting during elections.
Shout at him? Maybe it doesn't seem harmful, but I'm certainly someone who takes shouting really badly.
Hit him? He will stop (except the crying part) and now follow you. Sure, you hurt him; you used violence. But the next time the thought of doing such a show again, he'll remember it, and probably won'T do it. Also, you can always try to explain it later, you don't have to leave it at "you can'T do that because I'll hit you hard".
Drag him out/Ignore him? Yes, please. There's nothing more pleasant than traveling with parents who use this technique. The best part is when someone asks them to tone their children down a bit and they are offended that someone is trying to tell them how to raise their child.
Never understood the fuss about slaps. Me and my friends all have stories of being slapped, but almost all of them can be summed up with "I was really bad/stupid" + a good laugh.
All of this being said, I don't think I'd ever slap my children, it would be too hard on me, but I don't judge anyone for it. Being careless and utterly selfish at a young age is certainly not unheard of, and it's extremely hard on single dads/moms. Your teen might respect what you do to them and help you at wherever he/she can, but a 5 years old just sees that lego and wants it. You can't expect someone who spends his days eating, playing and sleeping to understand that you keep working extra, you have to make arrangements with the repair-man, you have to cook for him, you have to take care of the money and on top of that, you need some rest.
i was never spanked and i wouldnt have evr dared to directly insult either of my parents. your child wil only call u names if youre a failure at parenting.
also if you spank your children ritualisticly and not impulsevily, as in certain forms of misbehaviour reult in spanking, you are simply sick in the head. you are hitting your child, you are humiliating it, and youre somehow feeling youre doing the right thing? humiliating your own child. u sick fucks think about it
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I don't think we imply you have to spank/slap your children ritualistickly.
And you are right, calling someone names is actually childish. Wonder where the expression is coming from...
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I also don't know what's wrong with all your kids that they apparently devastate all kinds of stores and houses and act out like maniacs on a weekly basis. We don't hit our kids, still our stuff is still intact. A miracle, right?
If your child is too active spend some time with it and see that the kid gets enough physical activity. Reduces both childhood obesity and the chance that the child will act out.
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I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?".
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On October 17 2014 02:04 Volband wrote:
I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?".
actually the "dont hit your kids" side provided numerous articles and studys throughout this thread, while the "hitting is ok" side was trying to dismiss them, providing no data themselves.
and i dont think we have to "proove" that hitting your kid is bad. in fact, i think you should "proove" that there is any benefit in doing so. otherwise why do it?
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United States24683 Posts
On October 17 2014 16:40 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 02:04 Volband wrote:
I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?". actually the "dont hit your kids" side provided numerous articles and studys throughout this thread, while the "hitting is ok" side was trying to dismiss them, providing no data themselves. and i dont think we have to "proove" that hitting your kid is bad. in fact, i think you should "proove" that there is any benefit in doing so. otherwise why do it?
The thing I haven't seen (granted I haven't read the whole thread) is a description of how to properly discipline a child when the basic procedures described earlier aren't working. I've seen some posts providing overall guidelines for nonphysical discipline of children, emphasizing things like warning the child, calmly describing what the repercussions will be for poor behavior (e.g., taking toys away, not bringing the child anywhere fun), and following through on the punishments you promise if the child still misbehaves. However, I haven't seen what you do when those methods don't seem to be working (for some kids, they will be more than sufficient. For others, they won't).
What I have seen is a lot of answers about how parents are adults and children are young, and therefore you are a bad parent if you are unsuccessful with the above method of discipline, and resort to violence. But I believe there are some children who don't sufficiently respond to basic punishments of toys being taken away, not being taken to fun places/events, and calm verbal expressions of dissatisfaction. Some kids, when they do something "bad" and you take privileges away from them, respond by breaking things or taking other more severe action. It is almost as though you are challenging them to see who will blink first... and there are only so many toys you can take away.
That's not to say the only response to a child like that is to start smacking them necessarily, but I think those arguing that spanking is never necessary have not done enough to justify the claim that there are always superior alternatives.
I didn't bring up the topic I've brought up in the past where spanking can be an effective tool to stop young children who are not able to think at all logically from doing something dangerous that will get them hit by a car, electrocuted, etc, because I already know what the response will be. "The way to stop little kids from doing dangerous things is to hold their hand and make sure they don't do it." I won't bother going down this road again.
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I thought this was a rather beautifully written and powerful article attacking the use of spanking from a different angle
Spanking is a sex act
That is the one that did it for me, more than any other criticism of spanking so far.
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yeah I posted that article a few pages ago, thought it was pretty good.
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On October 17 2014 20:27 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 16:40 Snotling wrote:On October 17 2014 02:04 Volband wrote:
I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?". actually the "dont hit your kids" side provided numerous articles and studys throughout this thread, while the "hitting is ok" side was trying to dismiss them, providing no data themselves. and i dont think we have to "proove" that hitting your kid is bad. in fact, i think you should "proove" that there is any benefit in doing so. otherwise why do it? The thing I haven't seen (granted I haven't read the whole thread) is a description of how to properly discipline a child when the basic procedures described earlier aren't working. I've seen some posts providing overall guidelines for nonphysical discipline of children, emphasizing things like warning the child, calmly describing what the repercussions will be for poor behavior (e.g., taking toys away, not bringing the child anywhere fun), and following through on the punishments you promise if the child still misbehaves. However, I haven't seen what you do when those methods don't seem to be working (for some kids, they will be more than sufficient. For others, they won't).
Well if we're talking about very young children, if they try to break something you take it away, if they're really upset they'll usually start crying for a time. If that doesn't help you put them in their playpen. If they're too old for that you can start talking to them. I don't know if American kids are on steroids but I just don't understand your problem. The fact that we have abandoned that kind of punishment for decades speaks for itself. It is apparently not necessary and as already confirmed not helpful. I can't tell you exactly what kind of magic it is that we are using but if your kid starts setting your house on fire because it's angry what you need is a child psychologist, not a belt.
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On October 16 2014 03:11 Piste wrote:
I never got spanked. Probably my parents didn't want me to learn that violence is ok. In my late childhood/early "adulthood" I've gotten hit and beaten up many times, but I never have hit the attacker back.
Is this supposed to be an arguement for or against spanking?
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On October 17 2014 20:41 Thereisnosaurus wrote:I thought this was a rather beautifully written and powerful article attacking the use of spanking from a different angle Spanking is a sex actThat is the one that did it for me, more than any other criticism of spanking so far.
Spanking doesn't have to be a light slap on the butt. Its better defined as mild corporal punishment in general.
I never got spanked if you use the definition that it has to be a light slap on the butt. But I did get slapped in the back of the head or on the backs of my hands a few times.
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United States24683 Posts
On October 18 2014 00:44 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2014 20:27 micronesia wrote:On October 17 2014 16:40 Snotling wrote:On October 17 2014 02:04 Volband wrote:
I don't have kids, just made a hypothetical scenario, which has not been answered, aside from the usual mantra of "hitting kids is bad, ok?". actually the "dont hit your kids" side provided numerous articles and studys throughout this thread, while the "hitting is ok" side was trying to dismiss them, providing no data themselves. and i dont think we have to "proove" that hitting your kid is bad. in fact, i think you should "proove" that there is any benefit in doing so. otherwise why do it? The thing I haven't seen (granted I haven't read the whole thread) is a description of how to properly discipline a child when the basic procedures described earlier aren't working. I've seen some posts providing overall guidelines for nonphysical discipline of children, emphasizing things like warning the child, calmly describing what the repercussions will be for poor behavior (e.g., taking toys away, not bringing the child anywhere fun), and following through on the punishments you promise if the child still misbehaves. However, I haven't seen what you do when those methods don't seem to be working (for some kids, they will be more than sufficient. For others, they won't). Well if we're talking about very young children, if they try to break something you take it away, if they're really upset they'll usually start crying for a time. If that doesn't help you put them in their playpen. For little kids, yea, you can do things like that. I was thinking of kids that are too old for putting in their playpen, which you cover next.
If they're too old for that you can start talking to them. As I said above, in this case conventional "talking to them" isn't working... the child's behavior is not being corrected... taking away games/toys/privileges isn't doing it either. I don't know if American kids are on steroids but I just don't understand your problem. What does kids being on steroids have to do with it?
The fact that we have abandoned that kind of punishment for decades speaks for itself. The fact that you have "abandoned that kind of punishment" is irrelevant. I am asking for an explanation of how to discipline your children with spanking for more difficult children and more difficult situations. It is apparently not necessary and as already confirmed not helpful. I can't tell you exactly what kind of magic it is that we are using but if your kid starts setting your house on fire because it's angry what you need is a child psychologist, not a belt. I'm not talking about kids setting their house on fire (necessarily). I'm also not talking about using a belt... the strongest form of physical punishment I would consider potentially reasonable would be that which is currently permitted by child protective services in my country, which is an open handed smack to a limited number of places, and with other limitations I won't go in to.
You basically did exactly the same thing I described in my previous post... which wasn't very helpful.
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I'm just not sure what kind of response you are expecting. We don't use physical punishment here and our children still grow up to be normal adults. If they take something they are not supposed to we take it away, if they don't understand something we talk to them, that's just sufficient, I'm not making it up, spanking is considered to be child abuse here.
It's like asking "proof to me that society works if you don't go to church every day!" Yeah we kind of stopped doing that a few decades ago and everything's fine I guess.
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On October 18 2014 08:17 Nyxisto wrote:
I'm just not sure what kind of response you are expecting. We don't use physical punishment here and our children still grow up to be normal adults. If they take something they are not supposed to we take it away, if they don't understand something we talk to them, that's just sufficient, I'm not making it up, spanking is considered to be child abuse here.
It's like asking "proof to me that society works if you don't go to church every day!" Yeah we kind of stopped doing that a few decades ago and everything's fine I guess.
He's saying that non-violent methods are not successful 100% of the time, and wants to know what you do when they fail.
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You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time, many nations are not employing corporal punishment for a very long time now and manage to raise their children. I know I sound like a broken record but you seem to be unable to understand this fact. It simply is not necessary. You are doing it because it is your tradition, not because their is any factual evidence for its effectiveness or necessity.
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On October 18 2014 01:22 Chewbacca. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2014 03:11 Piste wrote:
I never got spanked. Probably my parents didn't want me to learn that violence is ok. In my late childhood/early "adulthood" I've gotten hit and beaten up many times, but I never have hit the attacker back. Is this supposed to be an arguement for or against spanking?
Not related probably. That falls in the category of being unable to defend yourself. And if you are able to do so then not reacting is just plain dumb.
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On October 18 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time, many nations are not employing corporal punishment for a very long time now and manage to raise their children. I know I sound like a broken record but you seem to be unable to understand this fact. It simply is not necessary. You are doing it because it is your tradition, not because their is any factual evidence for its effectiveness or necessity.
Yeah, it can work on a lot of kids. But it does not work on all of them. You seem to not have experience with any truly bratty children if you believe taking toys away is foolproof. There are children that take those non-violent discipline methods as challenges, and will behave worse in response.
Not that spanking is foolproof either, but its good to have one last option before shipping the brat off to military school or something.
You also act like spanking is our method of choice. I agree with you that parents who resort to that immediately every time are bad parents. I agree that calling it discipline doesn't give you free reign to just wail on the kid. But to say that it is impossible for spanking to ever be necessary is disingenuous.
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United States24683 Posts
On October 18 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time,
It most certainly does not work all the time. I'm glad it apparently worked for you, but claiming it works for everyone in your country is pretty hard to believe. Again, I'm not necessarily advocating using spanking as a punishment the first time taking a toy away doesn't work... I'm simply asking for how to discipline your children when your initial method isn't successful. You haven't been able to answer this... which is somewhat undermining the point you are trying to make. Trying to repeatedly hide behind "well it works in my country" is just increasing the divide between people in this thread who agree with you and people who don't.
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I already answered the question. We do exactly everything that you do minus corporal punishment. What is the kid supposed to do that it doesn't do if you resort to corporal punishment? We don't actually demand complete obedience from our kids. If they're mad then that's okay. Besides that I fail to understand what corporal punishment is supposed to do in the first place.
If you think it is okay and ethical to beat/spank/whatever children as part of some kind of obedience training then go ahead, but please stop demanding some mysterious alternative from me.
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On October 18 2014 10:15 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time, It most certainly does not work all the time. I'm glad it apparently worked for you, but claiming it works for everyone in your country is pretty hard to believe. Again, I'm not necessarily advocating using spanking as a punishment the first time taking a toy away doesn't work... I'm simply asking for how to discipline your children when your initial method isn't successful. You haven't been able to answer this... which is somewhat undermining the point you are trying to make. Trying to repeatedly hide behind "well it works in my country" is just increasing the divide between people in this thread who agree with you and people who don't.
Well the answer is a good old fashioned spanking then isnt it. I got slapped here and there but only when i was old enough to know what I was doing wrong and still did it anyway, which is fine by me.
Maybe also when I was not young enough to remember; but hey, I dont remember. And personally I've never felt abused and we tend to have pretty close families and I take a 20 hours trip every year to visit them.
Spanking smaller children makes no sense at all, but every so often if your non corporal methods fail and then do. I dont see the harm in a whack here or there. As long as it doesnt injure and just stings, it can be pretty effective. Some people have a problem with that but I dont see why not. Its the same to a kid as stubbing their toe if you think about it.
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United States24683 Posts
On October 18 2014 10:21 Nyxisto wrote:
I already answered the question. We do exactly everything that you do minus corporal punishment. What is the kid supposed to do that it doesn't do if you resort to corporal punishment? We don't actually demand complete obedience from our kids. If they're mad then that's okay. Besides that I fail to understand what corporal punishment is supposed to do in the first place.
It seems like you and I have different expectations of how our kids should behave. In my case, I expect a method of discipline that ensures the child will ultimately improve their behavior, even if they are rebellious by nature (I recognize some children have problems requiring professional psychological treatment which is beyond the scope of this conversation). In your case, you will explain to your kid that what they did is wrong, implement a punishment such as taking away their toys and other privileges, etc. If the child continues the bad behavior at that point, then you will just live with it because you don't demand complete obedience from your kids. Or alternately, taking away their favorite toys and telling them they will no longer be allowed to go to do fun activity X 100% guarantees the bad behavior will be corrected in the future (kind of doubtful).
I can't believe that mindset is universal in your region, but it is what you have argued for whether you mean it or not. I'm not trying to find proof that smacking is ok, or that smacking is not ok. I'm trying to understand how to utilize a nonviolent parenting strategy that is complete, rather than only working on the more receptive children.
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On October 18 2014 10:21 Nyxisto wrote:
I already answered the question. We do exactly everything that you do minus corporal punishment. What is the kid supposed to do that it doesn't do if you resort to corporal punishment? We don't actually demand complete obedience from our kids. If they're mad then that's okay. Besides that I fail to understand what corporal punishment is supposed to do in the first place.
If you think it is okay and ethical to beat/spank/whatever children as part of some kind of obedience training then go ahead, but please stop demanding some mysterious alternative from me.
Spanking is best used as a last resort. It doesn't need to hurt bad at all, just a little sting will suffice. It gets the message across to the kid that they are seriously pushing it, and whatever it is they're doing needs to stop.
I think its good to have one last option before you sign the kid up for one of those disciplinary boot camps, or just dis-own him.
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For all those who are saying "we've not smacked our kids for decades and we raised them fine" you don't actually know that they're fine. What if they're all on average worse-behaved children than in the past, and have further problems in their adult lives, all brought about by not being smacked? I don't have any proof one way or the other but it's a pretty big leap to say "we haven't smacked kids in my country for decades" to "our kids are all just as ok as with smacking, or better".
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Besides that what you're saying has already been debunked by studies that have repeatedly been posted in this thread, yes I really fear I have turned out spoiled because the two persons I relied on most in my young live have not smacked me around. That is indeed a very reasonable thing to believe
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On October 18 2014 12:52 Nyxisto wrote:
Besides that what you're saying has already been debunked by studies that have repeatedly been posted in this thread, yes I really fear I have turned out spoiled because the two persons I relied on most in my young live have not smacked me around. That is indeed a very reasonable thing to believe
Most of the studies I looked at only suggested that beating children had a correlation to increased aggression in later years, nothing about improved behaviour by smacking or not smacking, and most of them said something along the lines of "more moderate cases of smacking had little to no noticeable effect", in other words nothing statistically significant. If I perhaps missed some studies, and I didn't check them all, then feel free to re-link them and I will look again. And it's not even a case of being more spoiled, but just a general lowering of discipline and behaviour trends on average, as it's hard to look at this case-by-case and try to establish results.
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On October 18 2014 08:43 Nyxisto wrote:
You can discipline your children by taking their toy away, their favourite video game, give them house arrest for a day or two , basically anything that doesn't involve beating your children. And it actually does work all the time, many nations are not employing corporal punishment for a very long time now and manage to raise their children. I know I sound like a broken record but you seem to be unable to understand this fact. It simply is not necessary. You are doing it because it is your tradition, not because their is any factual evidence for its effectiveness or necessity.
I can confirm this was the most preferred way when I was being raised. I don't remember much spanking but there was probably just a little bit. Either way, I'm very proud of the poll which represents Europe. Shame on other continents.
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@micronesia
You acutally answered your question by yourself. If the non-violent discipline methods don't work, you will have to live with it as a parent. Of course you have to interfere, before something really bad happens, but this is possible without intended violence (holding the hands as you said would be one possibiliy). Actually there is no proof the problem doesn't get solved in the long run (especially considering that most of the brought up scenarios are short termed problems), as it isn't proofed that it could be solved by spanking.
In the experience of many spanking may have looked like the solution of the problem but perhaps other factors in the parenting where the true parts, which made their parenting a longterm-success.
I often think that the urge to do something to solve a disciplinary problem shows a need of the parents but not of the child. As a parent you want to solve that problem as soon and as directly as possible because you worry about your childs future and because the problem stresses you out. But perhaps the child just needs the time to let your non-violent disciplinary methods and your other parenting methods (show love; talk and explain; be an example; take the questions and the critic of your child seriously; discuss instead of teaching - you may learn something, too) kick in.
The point of the anti-spanking fraction in this thread isn't that spanking necessarily has to be harmful, but there is no sign of it being useful in any way because it's proven to be possible to raise kids without corporal punishment successfully.
So why risc possible harm on body or psyche of your child by using corporal punishment without it being necessary or even useful?
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United States24683 Posts
On October 18 2014 22:13 fronkschnonk wrote:
@micronesia
You acutally answered your question by yourself. If the non-violent discipline methods don't work, you will have to live with it as a parent.
The rest of your post seems pretty reasonable, but this was the part I said I can't simply agree with. This is essentially a 'hands off' approach to parenting you take up if your initial punishments (take away toys etc) don't work. This seems to be an extremely backwards lesson for the child... that resisting your discipline gets them what they want. Perhaps if I saw this in action I would understand what you mean better, and it wouldn't be as unreasonable of a suggestions as it currently seems.
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On October 18 2014 22:21 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 22:13 fronkschnonk wrote:
@micronesia
You acutally answered your question by yourself. If the non-violent discipline methods don't work, you will have to live with it as a parent. The rest of your post seems pretty reasonable, but this was the part I said I can't simply agree with. This is essentially a 'hands off' approach to parenting you take up if your initial punishments (take away toys etc) don't work. This seems to be an extremely backwards lesson for the child... that resisting your discipline gets them what they want. Perhaps if I saw this in action I would understand what you mean better, and it wouldn't be as unreasonable of a suggestions as it currently seems.
I think what he meant was that you don't give in to the kid, you just start ignoring its behavior.
If your kid wants ice cream for dinner and you refuse then it throws a tantrum and you just put it in its room/playpen and ignore it. No kid wants to get ignored.
My sister works at a place for kids whose parents can't handle them and they never use physical force at all. She says that it works a lot better to just explain to the kid why its behavior was wrong.
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I'm mostly lurking here on the forums, but I cannot really resist saying something to this topic, since it adresses mostly the same arguments while leaving others out.
On October 18 2014 22:21 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 22:13 fronkschnonk wrote:
@micronesia
You acutally answered your question by yourself. If the non-violent discipline methods don't work, you will have to live with it as a parent. The rest of your post seems pretty reasonable, but this was the part I said I can't simply agree with. This is essentially a 'hands off' approach to parenting you take up if your initial punishments (take away toys etc) don't work. This seems to be an extremely backwards lesson for the child... that resisting your discipline gets them what they want. Perhaps if I saw this in action I would understand what you mean better, and it wouldn't be as unreasonable of a suggestions as it currently seems.
The only reason why this answer seems unreasonable to you is because the scenario is inherently flawed. If I understood you correctly the scenario is: "All non-spanking methods are not successful, what can I do except resorting to spanking? "
The problem about this is that you can move the goalposts with this argument at will, because you can reformulate in "All this methods X have not worked, what can I do except method Y." Insert here "non-spanking methods and spanking (with hands)" for method X and "using a hairbrush for physical punishment" for method Y. Or you could move "using a hairbrush" to method X and insert "using a cane" for method Y (and so on for harder punishments).
There is no 'complete' method for parenting, you can always have the hypothetical scenario that your child will resist all methods you tried up until a point, that does not mean that using a harder method is justified. If they behave that way and are that stubborn about an issue that they resist consistent non-violent methods then there is most likely a reason for it. Younger children will not resist something on principle (by which I mean 'principle' and not just a stubborn phase) and if older ones do that then they are smart enough that you can just ask them why.
Apart from the consequential point of view there is the issue which is inherent to corporal punishment of any form. There are two components to it: The physical pain or for the least harshest version a shock on the one side and an overpowering part on the other (humilation can be a third part for older children). The overpowering part takes either the form of using your authority to force your child to submit to physical punishment on their own or putting them into position yourself (mostly smaller children). It puts them into a completely helpless position (either by not being able to leave physically or just being held their by parental authoriy) and leaving them exposed, which is an absolutely terrible feeling.
The only situation where such measures are justified is when you defend yourself or others, but for some reason there is this cultural exception for children, who are the ones who rely the most on the people who have the right to do it (in some counties at least). Children are people first and foremost and have essential rights. Not being exposed to physical pain and such helpless positions is one of them. Arguments that they 'turn out right' are completely irrelevant for that, children count as people themselves, not just when they are adults.
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Yeah, my statement was a bit unclear.
I don't want to say, that you should do nothing. You should keep on doing the stuff you are doing already. The disciplinary methods still will limitate the child and show your disapproval. Your other parenting methods will still show the child your understanding of wrong and right and that it is loved and it also have to justify it's own behaviour (this depends on the age). And if the child still wants to do whatever it is, you don't want it to, you perhaps can't change that in the short run but you can stop it from doing it.
This is the (certainly stressful) situation you have to live with - not with the child doing bad stuff.
In the end it depends on the concrete situation. I strongly belief that a child that is in rage-mode and about to smash bottles in a supermarket will get the point, if you take it by it's hands and carry it away, telling it that you're disappointed and that one doesn't smash other peoples stuff. At least it won't get the point more likely by spanking it.
The point is not, that the child doesn't do it, but the child is aware of it being a wrong thing to do and therefore doesn't want to do it anymore.
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On October 18 2014 22:21 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 22:13 fronkschnonk wrote:
@micronesia
You acutally answered your question by yourself. If the non-violent discipline methods don't work, you will have to live with it as a parent. The rest of your post seems pretty reasonable, but this was the part I said I can't simply agree with. This is essentially a 'hands off' approach to parenting you take up if your initial punishments (take away toys etc) don't work. This seems to be an extremely backwards lesson for the child... that resisting your discipline gets them what they want. Perhaps if I saw this in action I would understand what you mean better, and it wouldn't be as unreasonable of a suggestions as it currently seems.
Kids resisting their parents isn't necessarily a bad thing. They are supposed to develop a personality and find shit out on their own, they're supposed to become real people. A good junk of people, mainly the adults that were kids during the "68 generation" or shortly after have been raised completely anti-authoritarian without any rules at all. That's not a fringe phenomenon and actually still quite popular today. If you resort to any kind of "big punishment" regularly you're probably already a parent at the more conservative spectrum here.
I know this is anecdotal but what I always noticed is how American exchange students when they come to study here tend to get completely shit faced and completely overdo it. It actually takes them a few weeks/months to adjust because additionally to the conservative upbringing most seem to have no idea how to handle the fact that they can buy alcohol legally. The whole culture just seems completely unhealthy to me.
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United States24683 Posts
On October 19 2014 00:40 Nyxisto wrote:
I know this is anecdotal but what I always noticed is how American exchange students when they come to study here tend to get completely shit faced and completely overdo it. It actually takes them a few weeks/months to adjust because additionally to the conservative upbringing most seem to have no idea how to handle the fact that they can buy alcohol legally. The whole culture just seems completely unhealthy to me.
I see the same thing with Americans that go to school locally (in the USA). They leave their parents' home, go live on their own at school, and completely overdo it.
This was not me; I am probably atypical in that regard (although far from unique). That might give me a different perspective than you would expect coming from an American.
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I think that most of today's retarded modern "culture" such as Jersey Shore has a lot to do with not enough spanking and generally awfull parenting.
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Spanked open hand as well as occasionally with a belt. Pretty sure my mom used a ladle once too, but out of desperation because I had reached the point where spanking induced laughter, not pain/fear.
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yeah i was, i think my parents regret it because i dont forgive that kind of abuse.
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On October 18 2014 23:38 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2014 22:21 micronesia wrote:On October 18 2014 22:13 fronkschnonk wrote:
@micronesia
You acutally answered your question by yourself. If the non-violent discipline methods don't work, you will have to live with it as a parent. The rest of your post seems pretty reasonable, but this was the part I said I can't simply agree with. This is essentially a 'hands off' approach to parenting you take up if your initial punishments (take away toys etc) don't work. This seems to be an extremely backwards lesson for the child... that resisting your discipline gets them what they want. Perhaps if I saw this in action I would understand what you mean better, and it wouldn't be as unreasonable of a suggestions as it currently seems. I think what he meant was that you don't give in to the kid, you just start ignoring its behavior. If your kid wants ice cream for dinner and you refuse then it throws a tantrum and you just put it in its room/playpen and ignore it. No kid wants to get ignored. My sister works at a place for kids whose parents can't handle them and they never use physical force at all. She says that it works a lot better to just explain to the kid why its behavior was wrong.
I feel like when people say that "it works a lot better to just explain to the kid why its behavior was wrong," they have in their mind that parents who spank just spank for everything. And, maybe some do, but that's ridiculous.
1) Just because I employ spanking, does not mean I do it all the time... for everything... whenever I feel like it.
2) You said your sister never uses physical force at all. How could she possibly know if that works better? She's only tried one side.
3) Most of the people arguing in here don't even have children.
4) I notice a lot of people making the assumption that children are always rational. I find that so silly, especially because most people that argue on TL talk about how dumb adults are. Children are rational and adults are irrational? Ok.
4a) Next time you find yourself at a daycare or a cousin's house and a 2 yr old boy runs up and kicks you in the shin because he knows you will react to it and he wants to play, just explain to him that it actually hurts and you want him to stop. Sometimes, that will work. The smart ones, however, know that because you brought it up, you actually noticed them. Goal achieved. Repeat kicking. So, I guess you're right, they are rational.
Sometimes I feel like some of you guys don't even have younger siblings, or remember when you were a child, or whatever. I mean, are we talking 4 month olds? You don't spank 4 month olds. That's abuse. Are we talking 15 yr olds? If you're still spanking at 15, sounds like you've lost the battle. I don't think spanking into the teenage years does anything. It just doesn't. Their reasoning is developed enough at that point.
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EPT
