EPTWere you spanked? - Page 17
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7229 Posts
On September 22 2014 08:13 hp.Shell wrote: Precisely the reason why spanking is an irrational punishment. If children aren't reasonable, nor rational, why should they be expected to be able to reason the causality of their punishments? Physical abuse in any form is immoral and irrational, with the sole possible exception of killing things that spread disease such as mosquitos and rats. I'll answer this question as the devil's advocate. Simple behaviorism. Even beings that haven't the ability to reason respond to pain and are able to link the preceding behavior and the pain stimulus if the latter is administered in rapid response to the undesirable behavior. Even if they can't understand yet or ever why A is bad, they will understand on a subconscious level that it is and curtail that behavior. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
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FetTerBender
Germany1393 Posts
I guess it didnt harm me long term, i just got my note: "This was wrong." and could go on. | ||
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Arevall
Sweden1133 Posts
On September 22 2014 18:57 NovaTheFeared wrote: I'll answer this question as the devil's advocate. Simple behaviorism. Even beings that haven't the ability to reason respond to pain and are able to link the preceding behavior and the pain stimulus if the latter is administered in rapid response to the undesirable behavior. Even if they can't understand yet or ever why A is bad, they will understand on a subconscious level that it is and curtail that behavior. Spanking doesn't seem like a very effective in your argument since it isn't carried out immediately. Just changing the tone in your voice can act as a noxious stimuli to act as a negative reinforcement when it is needed. In my mind spanking is something you resort when you don't know other options. I also understand the opinions regarding spanking are very divided. Nobody were spanked where I grew up, but I'm sure many of our parents were. Of course I do not personally understand that there could be a need for spanking. In the end resorting to violence to get compliance from your child is barbaric. I understand that the term spanking is very wide, but I just don't believe that it is needed. A non-violent society should distance itself from all types of domestic violence. | ||
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qotsager
Germany585 Posts
to the people saying that it is okay as long as the goal isnt to cause pain but teach a lesson: you are still going to hurt your child. doesnt matter what your aim is, hitting them on the bum is going to hurt. obviously the big problem here is the cultural difference, and we won't really be able to convince each other to stop having been raised the way we were, i just think it's scary how so many people consider physical violence the go-to solution when there are communication issues with your child. hitting people is the last thing i will ever do to solve a conflict, and the fact that we are talking about violence against childen just reinforces that stance. | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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qotsager
Germany585 Posts
On September 22 2014 20:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The irony is that people who do compare children to dogs clearly don't own dogs or trained them properly because people who do, know that they should never hit their dogs. nvm, misread | ||
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screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45182 Posts
On September 22 2014 18:57 NovaTheFeared wrote: I'll answer this question as the devil's advocate. Simple behaviorism. Even beings that haven't the ability to reason respond to pain and are able to link the preceding behavior and the pain stimulus if the latter is administered in rapid response to the undesirable behavior. Even if they can't understand yet or ever why A is bad, they will understand on a subconscious level that it is and curtail that behavior. Of course, but it's important to note that behaviorism and classical/ operant conditioning become less and less effective as humans mature and start to be able to reason on their own. So while it might be a quick fix for extremely young children who don't know any better and can't really learn any better at that moment, spanking should be phased out in favor of communication and reasoning with the child as he/ she matures. Furthermore, it's generally established in psychology that positive/ negative reinforcement are more effective than punishment, and spanking is punishment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditioning In particular, Kohlberg's stages of development speak to approximate ages when higher level mentalities evolve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development#Stages Children's mindsets evolve from "Don't do this because I'll be punished" to "Don't do this because it's a bad thing to do" as they develop a more solid sense of morality. I was spanked when I was younger, and while I "deserved" it (in the sense that I was by no means angelic and deserved some level of consequence for my actions), it's made me more skittish and flinchy, especially when someone fake hits me or something travels very fast right past me. I think it's attributed to being spanked when I was younger (open hand, yardstick, wooden spoon, etc.) Based off what I've read from expert research and what I've experienced anecdotally, I'm going to try to not spank my kids. I think it's far more effective (especially long-term) to find a method of retribution that doesn't involve spanking/ slapping/ beating/ being physical with your kids, especially based on the social science behind it. It's a pity that such physical actions are universally normalized and parents tend to get immediate responses and results from their kids, through fear. I'd rather have my kids respect me than fear me though, and I know those two aren't inseparable. | ||
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babobbyj
636 Posts
For every single thing, if I knocked a glass of milk over at breakfast, spanked. The physical "pain" wasnt the problem, but the fear... When i moved out at 20 and got my own appartment, I managed to knock a glass of some drink over, the fear set in, felt so bad. I don't know how to feel about it, just that I could never hit my own kid, no fucking way, I'd rather shoot myself. | ||
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GettingIt
1656 Posts
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Dknight
United States5223 Posts
On September 23 2014 03:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Of course, but it's important to note that behaviorism and classical/ operant conditioning become less and less effective as humans mature and start to be able to reason on their own. So while it might be a quick fix for extremely young children who don't know any better and can't really learn any better at that moment, spanking should be phased out in favor of communication and reasoning with the child as he/ she matures. Furthermore, it's generally established in psychology that positive/ negative reinforcement are more effective than punishment, and spanking is punishment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Operant_conditioning In particular, Kohlberg's stages of development speak to approximate ages when higher level mentalities evolve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development#Stages Children's mindsets evolve from "Don't do this because I'll be punished" to "Don't do this because it's a bad thing to do" as they develop a more solid sense of morality. I was spanked when I was younger, and while I "deserved" it (in the sense that I was by no means angelic and deserved some level of consequence for my actions), it's made me more skittish and flinchy, especially when someone fake hits me or something travels very fast right past me. I think it's attributed to being spanked when I was younger (open hand, yardstick, wooden spoon, etc.) Based off what I've read from expert research and what I've experienced anecdotally, I'm going to try to not spank my kids. I think it's far more effective (especially long-term) to find a method of retribution that doesn't involve spanking/ slapping/ beating/ being physical with your kids, especially based on the social science behind it. It's a pity that such physical actions are universally normalized and parents tend to get immediate responses and results from their kids, through fear. I'd rather have my kids respect me than fear me though, and I know those two aren't inseparable. First thing I thought of is Bandura's bobo doll experiment. Once that association is learned, it's hard to unlearn..I was actually talking about the issue of corporal punishment in a course I teach on data analysis and the research against it is pretty damning. Some of the effects its caused you are pretty common and you can actually see some of the physical changes in the brain wiring due to early childhood experiences. A lot of people who experience CP as a child later on have coping issues, especially when dealing with stress, lower cognitive functioning, higher rates of aggression, and a whole bunch of other issues. Some links if people are interested: http://www.human.cornell.edu/pam/outreach/parenting/research/upload/Spanking-Research-Brief.pdf http://umaine.edu/publications/4357e/ http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/22033-time-out-spanking-babies-is-surprisingly-common http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP36.pdf (and an actual research article rather than a brief) | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany629 Posts
lol, II had no idea that spanking was still this common. | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany629 Posts
On September 22 2014 20:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The irony is that people who do compare children to dogs clearly don't own dogs or trained them properly because people who do, know that they should never hit their dogs. i tend to disagree; beating children is clearly abuse, beating a dog surely is aswell. But unlike a child, you cannot talk or reason with a dog, so to express your disagreement with your dogs behavior you need to interfer with him right when he does something he shouldn´t. The important part here is the timing, rather then the punishment. My neighbors, for example, had a lot of trouble with their dogs barking. The dog would loudly greet any anyone in a rather threateing manner, so they got collar that reacted to the dogs barking and sprewed some stinking liquid right under its nose. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45182 Posts
On September 23 2014 07:31 Dknight wrote: First thing I thought of is Bandura's bobo doll experiment. Once that association is learned, it's hard to unlearn..I was actually talking about the issue of corporal punishment in a course I teach on data analysis and the research against it is pretty damning. Some of the effects its caused you are pretty common and you can actually see some of the physical changes in the brain wiring due to early childhood experiences. A lot of people who experience CP as a child later on have coping issues, especially when dealing with stress, lower cognitive functioning, higher rates of aggression, and a whole bunch of other issues. Some links if people are interested: http://www.human.cornell.edu/pam/outreach/parenting/research/upload/Spanking-Research-Brief.pdf http://umaine.edu/publications/4357e/ http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/22033-time-out-spanking-babies-is-surprisingly-common http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP36.pdf (and an actual research article rather than a brief) Those are good sources  one of my college minors was psychology, and I really liked learning about infant, child, and adolescent development. | ||
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Chewbacca.
United States3634 Posts
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KARASVCXA666
Venezuela0 Posts
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On September 27 2014 23:55 KARASVCXA666 wrote: I rarely got spanked, normally my dad would just punch me in the face/ stomach haha , I remember going to school with a black eye multiple times. just. | ||
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