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On September 28 2014 22:29 Yuljan wrote:
Broke up with my ex girlfriend when she said she would hit our children if we ever get some. People who cannot even reason with children without resorting to violence are failures as human beings.
yea sure, you're reasoning with someone who can't yet reason...
Piaget's second stage, the pre-operational stage, starts when the child begins to learn to speak at age two and lasts up until the age of seven. During the Pre-operational Stage of cognitive development, Piaget noted that children do not yet understand concrete logic and cannot mentally manipulate information. Children’s increase in playing and pretending takes place in this stage. However, the child still has trouble seeing things from different points of view.
just stop lying to yourselves thinking you reason with children because you don't; you lie and manipulate them.
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I don't really want to generalize, but I find it sad that America had so much more spanking towards children. Must be because of the overly zealous religious culture.
On a side note, if we could draw some conclusion from the poll, the act of spanking doesn't probably affect the upbringing of children that much. It's probably more about the kind of emotion the parent transmits during the punishment that deeply roots into childrens memories.
As children are incredibly sensitive towards what their parents feel, spanking could potentially produce any kind of effect (positive, neutral or negative), depending on the emotional meaning the parent channels through the act.
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On September 28 2014 23:19 aTnClouD wrote:
I don't really want to generalize, but I find it sad that America had so much more spanking towards children. Must be because of the overly zealous religious culture.
On a side note, if we could draw some conclusion from the poll, the act of spanking doesn't probably affect the upbringing of children that much. It's probably more about the kind of emotion the parent transmits during the punishment that deeply roots into childrens memories.
As children are incredibly sensitive towards what their parents feel, spanking could potentially produce any kind of effect (positive, neutral or negative), depending on the emotional meaning the parent channels through the act.
this^
spanking itself isnt the problem.
its the parents' thoughts and general attitudes toward the child that harm the child in the long run.
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On September 29 2014 00:40 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2014 23:19 aTnClouD wrote:
I don't really want to generalize, but I find it sad that America had so much more spanking towards children. Must be because of the overly zealous religious culture.
On a side note, if we could draw some conclusion from the poll, the act of spanking doesn't probably affect the upbringing of children that much. It's probably more about the kind of emotion the parent transmits during the punishment that deeply roots into childrens memories.
As children are incredibly sensitive towards what their parents feel, spanking could potentially produce any kind of effect (positive, neutral or negative), depending on the emotional meaning the parent channels through the act. this^ spanking itself isnt the problem. its the parents' thoughts and general attitudes toward the child that harm the child in the long run.
Exactly. Whatever scolding is given to the children (from saying the word "NO" to spanking) should come with the intention to DISCIPLINE the children, which stems from a genuine feeling it is the best for the kid (this is love)
If you yell or spank your kid because you are ANGRY and not because of DISCIPLINE that's abuse.
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On September 22 2014 16:35 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:37 Grumbels wrote:On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that. Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical. how is that cynicism?; that's just a simple case of choosing the lesser evil and it works exactly like that for toddlers. they respond more/better to psychological punishments and less to physical ones because those(the former) hurt the most, because those are more damaging. you are abusing/damaging your kids by not spanking them.
What? So the more effective way is worse because it "hurts" the child? What does hurt mean by your definition? How is that abuse? How is a child damaged by you taking away something as a consequence of them misbehaving?
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Taking a toy away is a form of punishment, but it does not scare the child. If the parents cut a child's pocket money the kid may get angry, but it isn't scared. There is something very distinct to physically overpowering somebody. If you take your child's toy away you're basically saying "look kid this is the consequence if you do something that annoys other people". If you use corporal punishment you are saying "I'm strong, you're weak, don't feel safe here buddy". It abuses the fact that children are very dependent on the safety that their parents offer them. And using this bond between parents and kid as a leverage is a very terrible thing to do.
This same barrier exists everywhere pretty much. You don't get physical with your girl- or boyfriend, you don't physically punish someone in custody, it's just a line that people intuitively don't cross because everybody knows that its really bad. But somehow when it comes to children, who need this protection the most, people start treating them like property, that's what's very disgusting about it.
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On September 29 2014 02:38 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 16:35 xM(Z wrote:On September 22 2014 04:37 Grumbels wrote:On September 22 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:On September 22 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:
well how about this: make another poll, slap it on the first page(OP) and ask people to choose between: being sent to solitary (their room) for a period of time, having their PC/game box/play time taken/restricted, getting lectured about rights and wrongs for about a half an hour and getting spanked, then watch irony rear its ugly head. (i'd take 2 slaps any day then go on with my business) Haha, true that. Which might also show how pointless it is as punishment. It turns kids cynical. how is that cynicism?; that's just a simple case of choosing the lesser evil and it works exactly like that for toddlers. they respond more/better to psychological punishments and less to physical ones because those(the former) hurt the most, because those are more damaging. you are abusing/damaging your kids by not spanking them. What? So the more effective way is worse because it "hurts" the child? What does hurt mean by your definition? How is that abuse? How is a child damaged by you taking away something as a consequence of them misbehaving?
you get the expected result when the punishment worked. the punishment works when you make the kid submit to your ideas of right/wrong (or whatever else you have going there).
it's impossible to a kid to understand your reasoning since he is yet biologically unequipped to do so.
in your example: the kid just learns to submit to someone with the power to deprive him of stuff since he has no fucking clue what you want from/of him. you deprive him of what he loves, it hurts him, he submits, the end.
a smack is easily forgotten. kids are known to do the same stupid things within hours of being spanked because of them; it means the smacking doesn't really hurt or is at least a passing thing.
psychological damage > physical damage. because ... it just hurts more.
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I can only remember once when my Mother spanked me, don't remember what for so I can't say I didn't do it again or just got smarter at hiding what I did.
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I was not spankend (typical european here ^^) but I also learned to behave early. So there never was any need for that. That said: Our neighbours offspring would suit some spanking as he accepts no rules and can't be reasoned with. There was probably some wrong parenting earlier, but if you cannot reason with someone you need to use force be it terrrorists or your child. It's that simple. If I would have behaved like that, there would have been lot's of spanking, and it would have been for the better.
There's a simple thing you need to know when parenting:
Democratic thinking is not something you're born with, it's something you learn. And it's not a concept that suits parenting before the child really can grasp those concepts (usually not before the age of 12). Children are children and not adults. Even if it goes against your fundamental beliefs: The parents home should be a dictatorship. That way, you don't create some narcissistic monster and your child will have a more protected, happy and "childish" childhood.
And yes, your child will be more happy in the long run if it gets to feel some force (as a last resort to discipline, and only if really necessary) instead of being treated like an adult.
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On September 29 2014 03:02 Nyxisto wrote:
Taking a toy away is a form of punishment, but it does not scare the child. If the parents cut a child's pocket money the kid may get angry, but it isn't scared. There is something very distinct to physically overpowering somebody. If you take your child's toy away you're basically saying "look kid this is the consequence if you do something that annoys other people". If you use corporal punishment you are saying "I'm strong, you're weak, don't feel safe here buddy". It abuses the fact that children are very dependent on the safety that their parents offer them. And using this bond between parents and kid as a leverage is a very terrible thing to do.
This same barrier exists everywhere pretty much. You don't get physical with your girl- or boyfriend, you don't physically punish someone in custody, it's just a line that people intuitively don't cross because everybody knows that its really bad. But somehow when it comes to children, who need this protection the most, people start treating them like property, that's what's very disgusting about it.
Ok I generally stay out of these assinine sorts of threads, but read the first and last page and man this post is so stupid. There are some decent points in the little I've read from both sides but this is not one of them. Since when is corporal punishment "physically overpowering somebody" or "scary". It is merely painful. lol. I was spanked relatively rarely (my brother more) and with a hell of a lot more than an open hand and I was never, ever, ever "scared" of my parents. Hell, I went to a school where I was spanked once (for getting in fight) and was I scared of the principal after that? Hell no. That is just not what it does at all.
Basically it all comes down to what many, many people have said. ANY sort of discipline is all about the attitude and reasons behind it. You can do even more damage emotionally than physically. My own personal childhood experience was that many of my friends/classmates whos parents didnt believe in spanking there was a tendency for the kids to be MUCH more manipulative and bratty, in fact non-corporal punishment seems to me much, much more likely to make kids just try to figure out how to dodge and avoid/get around the punishments then actually learn that what they did in the first place was wrong.
Anyways, per OP, despite my opinion that corporal punishment is 100% justified and nothing wrong with it in my mind the Peterson case was clearly abuse and out of line. I know from personal experience that it is quite possible to create a very sharp impression with a wooden paddle on the behind without doing any sort of lasting harm. If you are raising welts or breaking the skin, get off yourself, use something else and maintain the control to actually hit the kid on the butt. This is part of why you never lay out ANY sort of punishment out of anger.
Whats the point of these discussions anyways lol. Its not like anyone "changes" their mind.
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it's 'cause at TL, shit always gets figured out!; the people who won't/don't change their mind are exposed for being psychologically corrupted and/or damaged.
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Yes, Europe.
Not excessively, not really painfully either, more as a gesture of: "You seriously misbehaved".
I grew up fine and love my parents so I would say it worked.
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1. Scientific perspective
Social science research says spanking leads to negative outcomes.
Parental endorsement of spanking and children’s internalizing and externalizing problems in African American and Hispanic families. By: Coley, Rebekah Levine, Kull, Melissa A., Carrano, Jennifer, Journal of Family Psychology, 08933200, 20140201, Vol. 28, Issue 1
link to article: http://goo.gl/C5tKtf
2. Personal ramblings on development and discipline.
Personally I don't really remember if I was spanked. I do remember that things weren't really explained to me. I was expected to behave for the sake of maintaining proper appearances. I was to taught to control myself for the sake of others not for my own sake. I learned to behave but I feel I could have been a more full person with different socialization at a young age.
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When I think about it at the most basic level, I think that not hitting my child is better than hitting my child.
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I wasn't spanked, but my parents slapped me in the face. My mother hit me until I asked her to stop (I was 7 or 8), she looked really upset when I said that. My father hit me until I tried to hit him back (around 13years old), the surprise on his face was priceless.
I always thought their behaviour was unreasonable and if I should ever have children, I hope I won't make the same mistake. How can you teach your child that violence is wrong and then use it on them? It's simply retarded.
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Spanking is not painful enough, I was hit with metal hangers, slippers, bamboo sticks, chop sticks. People are too desensitized these days, everyone in my family did not develop these social issues. Unless you're being abused everyday that is not the case here.
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On September 29 2014 22:00 Disregard wrote:
Spanking is not painful enough, I was hit with metal hangers, slippers, bamboo sticks, chop sticks. People are too desensitized these days, everyone in my family did not develop these social issues. Unless you're being abused everyday that is not the case here.
If you find it normal to be hit with stuff like that, im pretty sure you just dont notice the social issues.....
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These underlying social issues are hyped and brought up from dysfunctional and abusive families. Many societies are brought up this way, there's a difference here so stop being so narrow-minded.
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On September 29 2014 22:57 Snotling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2014 22:00 Disregard wrote:
Spanking is not painful enough, I was hit with metal hangers, slippers, bamboo sticks, chop sticks. People are too desensitized these days, everyone in my family did not develop these social issues. Unless you're being abused everyday that is not the case here. If you find it normal to be hit with stuff like that, im pretty sure you just dont notice the social issues.....
I would like to list these social issues that my family might have developed or brought on that is more related to our culture than anything.
edit: I grew up in a Western society so I'm aware and experienced both sides of the story.
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EPT
