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On September 21 2014 12:09 Nyxisto wrote:The point of the article is that : "At a minimum, they note, even if that is the case, their results show that corporal punishment does not improve children's behavior." Nothing positive comes from beating your children. There are a million other studies that show this, too, which the article also mentions. There is nothing positive to it. edit: this meta study that covers 62 years of data mentioned before confirms this. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
Are you just posting links without reading what they say?
In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment.
"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."
Baumrind et al. suggest that those parents whose emotional make-up may cause them to cross the line between appropriate corporal punishment and physical abuse should be counseled not to use corporal punishment as a technique to discipline their children. But, that other parents could use mild to moderate corporal punishment effectively. "The fact that some parents punish excessively and unwisely is not an argument, however, for counseling all parents not to punish at all."
In her reply to Baumrind et al., Gershoff states that excessive corporal punishment is more likely to be underreported than overreported and that the possibility of negative effects on children caution against the use of corporal punishment.
"Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use," Gershoff writes.
"Because we cannot guarantee the safety for all, we recommend it for none." That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for a research and professional institution to draw. The extension of that is not "corporal punishment in all forms to any degree is damaging and/or morally wrong."
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On September 21 2014 12:09 Nyxisto wrote:The point of the article is that : "At a minimum, they note, even if that is the case, their results show that corporal punishment does not improve children's behavior." Nothing positive comes from beating your children. There are a million other studies that show this, too, which the article also mentions. There is nothing positive to it. edit: this meta study that covers 62 years of data mentioned before confirms this. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
"But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.
"The act of corporal punishment itself is different across parents - parents vary in how frequently they use it, how forcefully they administer it, how emotionally aroused they are when they do it, and whether they combine it with other techniques. Each of these qualities of corporal punishment can determine which child-mediated processes are activated, and, in turn, which outcomes may be realized," Gershoff concludes.
The meta-analysis also demonstrates that the frequency and severity of the corporal punishment matters. The more often or more harshly a child was hit, the more likely they are to be aggressive or to have mental health problems."
"In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment."
wat
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On September 21 2014 12:14 Bigtony wrote:
"Because we cannot guarantee the safety for all, we recommend it for none." That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for a research and professional institution to draw. The extension of that is not "corporal punishment in all forms to any degree is damaging and/or morally wrong."
If you're looking for a scientific study that tells you that something is morally wrong I guess you'll have a hard time. As you apparently don't feel bad about beating children by yourself, as in my opinion every person should, the only thing I can try to do is to show that there is no objective reason to do it anyway.
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On September 21 2014 12:14 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 12:09 Nyxisto wrote:The point of the article is that : "At a minimum, they note, even if that is the case, their results show that corporal punishment does not improve children's behavior." Nothing positive comes from beating your children. There are a million other studies that show this, too, which the article also mentions. There is nothing positive to it. edit: this meta study that covers 62 years of data mentioned before confirms this. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx Are you just posting links without reading what they say? Show nested quote +
In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment.
"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."
Baumrind et al. suggest that those parents whose emotional make-up may cause them to cross the line between appropriate corporal punishment and physical abuse should be counseled not to use corporal punishment as a technique to discipline their children. But, that other parents could use mild to moderate corporal punishment effectively. "The fact that some parents punish excessively and unwisely is not an argument, however, for counseling all parents not to punish at all."
In her reply to Baumrind et al., Gershoff states that excessive corporal punishment is more likely to be underreported than overreported and that the possibility of negative effects on children caution against the use of corporal punishment.
"Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use," Gershoff writes.
"Because we cannot guarantee the safety for all, we recommend it for none." That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for a research and professional institution to draw. The extension of that is not "corporal punishment in all forms to any degree is damaging and/or morally wrong."
I appreciate you take the time to read it. It is true that people like to link studies and research willy nilly here without reading. I wish in topics especially like these, a certain level of posting standards were enforced. As these arguments never go anywhere.
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On September 21 2014 12:18 Nyxisto wrote:
If you're looking for a scientific study that tells you that something is morally wrong I guess you'll have a hard time. As you apparently don't feel bad about beating children by yourself, as in my opinion every person should, the only thing I can try to do is to show that there is no objective reason to do it anyway.
Sharing your opinion to sway the actions of others is just in my eyes. But at the same time, do you think about intervening in the matters of others, who spank their kids with a hand/spoon and discussing the wrongdoing afterwards? Since if you do, I have nothing to discuss with you.
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On September 21 2014 12:18 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 12:14 Bigtony wrote:
"Because we cannot guarantee the safety for all, we recommend it for none." That's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for a research and professional institution to draw. The extension of that is not "corporal punishment in all forms to any degree is damaging and/or morally wrong."
If you're looking for a scientific study that tells you that something is morally wrong I guess you'll have a hard time. As you apparently don't feel bad about beating children by yourself, as in my opinion every person should, the only thing I can try to do is to show that there is no objective reason to do it anyway.
You are intentionally using inflammatory language to berate others and justify your position. No one (very few) is trying to justify "beating" their children. While that is the colloquial term for corporal punishment, "spanking" is the more appropriate term for this conversation AND the more accurate description of what most people are giving/receiving. The articles you link DON'T show that their is no reason to do it. The reality is that for the entirety of human history corporal punishment in some form has been the norm and the overwhelming majority of people who were corporally disciplined as children have no lasting negative effects into their adulthood.
I'll drop out of this topic on this note:
I received the occasional spanking from my parents as a child (<5 smacks on my bottom with a hand or spoon with enough force to sting for a short time, but never any marking) and at the time and in hindsight they were effective. When I was about 10 (?) this was dropped in favor of grounding/no TV/etc. All of my discipline was accompanied by an explanation of what I had done wrong (but almost always it was something I already knew I wasn't supposed to do) My sister/brother had the same and the three of us are emotionally healthy adults without any violent tendencies.
In discussing discipline with my parents (as an adult) they're only regret was that they had trouble maintaining their calm and explaining themselves (screaming/yelling is considered corporal punishment even if you don't call names/degrade/etc).
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Maybe I'm late to the party but I'll share my rather simple opinion. Why would showing your lack of confidence and teaching your children to fear would make them "behave"? They need to understand why they need to behave(so they can coexist without conflict in society mostly) and not fearing the bad behavior. The earlier you meet fear the earlier you'll start developing anxiety and depression. Shower them with love and understanding, be there for them and respect them(this is what parents lack the most imo) and they'll be an emotional fortress. Scar them and project your weakness onto them and they'll be antissocial ,have low self esteems and will grow into anxious and depressed adults who are not fit to raise children. This is what I got from my experience. Only opinions but whatever.
Also, I find it funny as all things my mother sat down and talked over with me were lessons learned and all the stuff she yelled and lost her patience made me learn nothing but to take my mother less seriously. If your parents don't respect you why would you respect them? Treat your children with dignity and love and you'll grow into people who share more than just bonds of family.
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Damn, I'm from the US and I was never spanked; I'm startled to see the NA poll tilted so far towards "yes". In fact, I can remember being roughly handled only once in my entire life. I'm from the Northeast, and my parents are both doctors, so probably predisposed to more liberal parenting.
I don't think I could ever hit a child, even my own. There are definitely times you have to be stern and harsh, and physically handle your child in some way, but I don't think you should ever resort to an aggressive, punitive strike.
Of course, I don't yet have children of my own so this view is necessarily inexperienced.
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I think if your brain ever crosses from "this is the appropriate discipline for this situation" to "I want to hit my child" that's a clear sign that you shouldn't do it.
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"How can I get this child to respect me??? Ahhh yes, violence!!!"
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On September 21 2014 11:57 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:53 jidolboy wrote:
You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are shitposting and contribute nothing to the discussion.
Do you see what I did there^ +1 Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:53 HackBenjamin wrote:
If spanking worked, you'd only have to do it once. Just like how you never need to tell a kid anything more than once, right?Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:51 dismiss wrote:
You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are comparing beating children to motorways. It's a valid comparison, your comment is usually used to derail a point based on the merit that it's unconventional rather than addressing the body of its message.
Not sure what point that is supposed to make against what I said. Do you think spanking is necessary to properly raise a child?
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Never got spanked, turned out fine and have discipline and toughness. Don't see the need
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On September 21 2014 12:33 Carwash wrote:
"How can I get this child to respect me??? Ahhh yes, violence!!!"
Thats all a child 8 and under will really understand in the heat of the moment. If they're in the middle of misbehaving, you can throw all the rhetoric you want at them, it will not do any good.
On September 21 2014 12:49 darthfoley wrote:
Never got spanked, turned out fine and have discipline and toughness. Don't see the need
Just because you were a saint of a child doesn't mean every child is.
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I got spanked, both by my parents and my teachers (didn't live in the states till 7th grade) but they always made it clear to me that it's a matter of discipline and not because they got mad for some random reason and beat the fuck outta me just cuz of it. I didn't remember a time where I actually disrespected their reasoning.
And they always used tools and the amount of force that never leave permanent damage. Stung, but never leave permanent damage, or, for that matter, any bleeding whatsoever. When I read that this guy actually caused to kid to bleed, it sounds like this guy had issues. If he really was just doing it for discipline, he's just a retard. Unless you really want someone to bleed, it's actually really fucking hard to do so.
I'm cool with it as a disciplinary tool because I personally feel that it actually benefited me even in the short run, but if you even remotely feel like you don't know what the fuck you're doing, stay away from it. I've seen way too many cases of actual child abuse but because of "discipline" and the overall Asian mentality to pussy out from actually intervening into "personal affairs", no one stopped them and kids grew up mentally fucked up.
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Yes, but it's honestly one of the least worrisome things I had growing up.
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On September 21 2014 12:33 Carwash wrote:
"How can I get this child to respect me??? Ahhh yes, violence!!!"
"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." <- Yes i've met people that takes that seriously.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Well... this is what I, as a 19 year old, thinks about it: In the real world I think it is necesary. Sometimes. And with a meaning.
I rarely got "spanked" but it happened when i did something stupid or real bad. Most of the time my father would talk to me, send me to my room and that kind of stuff, but when i did someting really stupid, he did slap me. Although he never used a belt or something like that.
My mother on the other hand, never slapped me or anything, and looking at it now... I think it made me respect less her authority. For example, if my mother said i coudn't go out with my friends for "x" reason, somethimes i would go anyway. When my father said i wouldn't go, i didn't go.
I used to take tae-kown-do classes, and there they would "spank" us with a wooden sword if we did something bad (fighting with someone, arriving late, etc). If you were a child, the teacher woudn't really hit you, just said things like "if you do that again, i'll use the wooden sword". Im my case, when I was training to become a black belt, he would be stricter with us, and he would hit us (not that hard, but yeah somewhat hard) if we were late or did something wrong, but he would do it with a meaning: he would say that, since we would soon be black belts, we were an example to others, an example of dedication, and discipline. Here we would recieve a splap, but in other places, they would fire us, or could even kill us in a fight The other students should look up to us, and so, we were expected to do more than them. So we should always arrive early, work harder and never fight against other people (unless in practice, or really really necesary to protect ourselves).
There was the meaning, and it was a good reason. Now, you could say that hitting us wan't necessary, he could have done anything else, but i think it was fine because of two reasons:
1.-Other students would see it, so they will understand that there are consecuences to your acts, without needing to be slaped. That way, he woudn't need to really spank others.
2.-That slap would give you an immediate counsecuence for your act.
Now, while point 1 doesn't really apply to family, because usually you dont have that many children and this is a pretty particuliar case. Point 2 applies very well.
Giving your son this kind of punishment, gives them an immediate consecuence for his/her act. Otherwise, you can talk to them, sure, but they woudn't really feel the punishment, they would say "yeah, this is bad, but nothing happens if i do it, so i'll do it again", until they do that in some situation that they will get a consecuence way way worse than a little slap.
Nowadays, i think most fathers try to talk to their kids, but from my experience, it hasn't really worked:
For example, when i was 15 years old or so, my girlfriend, who was the daughter of a teacher, had a 6-8 year old "friend". One day, for some reason he started punching me. He wasn't playing, he hated me or something, At first, since i was way way stronger and bigger than him, and since he wasn't really hurting me because he, as a child, doesn't really hit that hard, I tried to talk to him "what are you doing? stop", "don't do that", "come on, stop it now". Even as i talked to him, or stepped back, he wound't stop to punch me. Until i grabbed him, pushed him to the wall with some force, and told him: "listen kid, I'm way stronger than you, stop it now!". Then he stopped.
I didn't hurt him, and didn't spank or slap him, but i did use strenght to get my point across. If i hadn't done that, he would have kept punching me or something. That made me think that their family, didn't teach him to respect others, or simply told him "you've got to repesct others" but never punished him when he didn't, they just talked it to him, and he wound't even listen. After I pushed him, he got it, he understood, and I can assure you he never dared to start punchin people (at least older people) since that day.
More or less at that time, i invited some friends to my house, and one of them bring his brother, who was like 3-4 years younger. Then suddenly, he started breaking things, and throwing stuff around and i was like "WTF". I told him to stop, obviosly he didn't, so i grabbed him and his stuff, and forcefully kicked him out of my house (i didn't physically kick him, i mean it like "took him" out of my house). I knew him, we were "kinda" friends before and we still were "kinda" friends after that.
Again, with that kid, their fathers failed myserably in teaching him to respect others, and the things that aren't yours. I'm sure i wasn't the first person to "suffer" from this kids lack of respect, but I can say that when i finally let him inside my house again, he respected everything and didn't break anything.
So my personal conclusion from all of this is the following:
Most of the time sending them to their room, and taking away his favourite toy for a day is enough to make them understand. But in some situations, and this varies from children to children, it is necesary to spank them, as long as it meets the following conditions:
1.-It must be done only, when it has a meaning. When it teaches a leason or make them understand something. It mustn't be because some bullshit argument like "because i say so".
2.-It must be done only and only if they didn't understand it with a talk or "softer" punishment. Violence should always be the last option.
3.-It must be done only with the hands. The use of belts, bats or other stuff must be avoided. It's not necessary.
4.-It must not be done with the intent of harming the children. This is about getting a point across, not hurting them. If you do spank them, you shall do it with minimum strenght, The pain should last a maximum of 1-2 minutes. If it last more, or causes bleed, or kills him, or it brakes his bones or causes marks in his/her body, it shouldn't be done. Again, this is about getting a point across, it should be a lesson. It shouldn't really hurt them.
5.-It mustn't be done often or repetitively.
So thats what i think. In a perfect, utopical world, spanking wouldn't be necessary, but in the real world here's the deal most childrens in most cases will understand with just talking and "soft" punishment, but for some kinds in some cases, i think its neccesary, as long as it meets the criteria above. Because with those kids, if you don't teach them, someone else will, and it could be way, way worse of a lesson than a little slap.
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Spanking only exacerbates the problems of adolescence imo. Some say "I was a bad kid and deserved it", which in my experience, simply defies logic. In my case I was a fucking hellion of a kid because of the spankings- and on top of that the bullying when I was an awkward, nerdy kid. A late bloomer, but once I sprouted, there was hell to pay, not least of all on my parents.
But it seems that some only care about what YOU want for your kids. That they are some sort of personal property that the government needs to lay off, or that you sired and gave birth to punchingbags. Some are selfish (no big surprise) and want or demand respect or load tons of stress on them to succeed. Respect is earned not demanded- the quickest way to lose that is to beat your kids. I simply want mine to know love, compassion, and happiness like the hippy I am. I think about their wants, needs and desires, not my own. Maybe I am just fattening up lambs to the slaughter, but I refuse to conform if this is all that matters... wealth.
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On September 21 2014 11:30 ZenithM wrote:
Let's at least agree on something. You do need sanctions and punishments of some sort with children right? You can't just go full on negotiating/argumenting and stuff, it doesn't work that way.
Whether it's okay for them to be of physical nature is debatable, but then again there are psychological warfare type of punishments that are probably much worse. What do you all feel is the best way to give a quick and efficient "don't do that" lesson to a child when you can't really argue? Or do you believe you can always argue? (Then good luck, you're in for a tough time :D).
Edit: Well, I'll just say it nonetheless, I'm against all types of physical punishment, spanking or whatever else, but I'm far from being a parent, so I don't really have any idea of what I could do if I'm out of arguments :D. Things like confiscating something, like a toy?
On this note I know of a child for which spanking does not work, as the child seeks attention and spanking = more attention. On the other hand, being locked in a room is a far greater punishment and the threat of that can work immediately. Every child is different and even within my own family, some of my siblings almost never got spanked due to being pretty good kids. Myself and my brother, on the other hand, were constantly pushing the boundaries and needed to be reminded. Explaining what was bad and why we shouldn't do it did NOT work with us, and I don't think anything other than spanking (or perhaps removal of computer rights when I got to about 10 maybe  ) would have worked.
For any studies that show a correlation between aggressiveness and spanking, keep in mind the first rule of statistics: correlation does not imply causation. It could even be the other way around: aggressiveness might cause more spankings!
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EPT
