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Canada11381 Posts
On September 21 2014 10:20 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 06:41 Falling wrote:On September 21 2014 06:28 IgnE wrote:
If it's good enough for kids why isn't it good enough for adults. For everyone who advocates spanking do you also advocate caning for criminals and public offenders? Caning is not equivalent to spanking. Caning is equivalent to beating your child and I do not advocate that. There is no equivalent because there really is only a window of time where it can work. After a certain age it inevitably becomes ineffective because if administred in the way advocates suggest, you were not using much force all along. There is no magical time at the end of childhood when spanking becomes ineffective, because children vary so much emotionally and developmentally. But as a general guideline, I would suggest that most corporal punishment be finished prior to the first grade (six years old). It should taper off from there and stop when the child is between the ages of ten and twelve. To be fair, a spank on the hand of a sixteen year old is not going to be effective at all, if you're going to whup a sixteen year old you're going to have to use a cane or something similar to have any effect. Then again, if they're not disciplined by the time they're that old it's too late anyway, so it's probably not worth it then.
Well, that's exactly what I mean. You do it early or not at all. You do it early and phase it out before they are out of elementary. Because yes, it would require a 'whupping' and I believe that would be unethical, non-effective, and very likely to backfire where the teen assaults their 'old man.'
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On September 21 2014 11:27 Fecalfeast wrote:
Here I was thinking the general consensus would be to avoid violence at all possible avenues.
This thread is a real eye-opener. You say you weren't "tough" violence, which I assume you mean taught, but you are advocating it right now.
I meant to say rough (t and r are next to each other on the keyboard), apologies for the typo.
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Let's at least agree on something. You do need sanctions and punishments of some sort with children right? You can't just go full on negotiating/argumenting and stuff, it doesn't work that way.
Whether it's okay for them to be of physical nature is debatable, but then again there are psychological warfare type of punishments that are probably much worse. What do you all feel is the best way to give a quick and efficient "don't do that" lesson to a child when you can't really argue? Or do you believe you can always argue? (Then good luck, you're in for a tough time :D).
Edit: Well, I'll just say it nonetheless, I'm against all types of physical punishment, spanking or whatever else, but I'm far from being a parent, so I don't really have any idea of what I could do if I'm out of arguments :D. Things like confiscating something, like a toy?
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Canada11355 Posts
On September 21 2014 11:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:19 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business. "I just think that if I want to smack my own 4 year old on the mouth for stealing cookies, nobody should say a fucking word about it" I wouldn't hit my kid for that, but I think people should have the right to yes. I would oppose hitting to the head, but I have no issue warranting a spanking for the kid if he's breaking the house rules. It's the long time example. How should the punishment differ for stealing a bushel of wheat versus stealing a carriage, when the intention is the same. The size of what's stolen should not be proportional to the punishment, rather it should be logarithmic.
If you taught your child proper values when they were young, they would not be stealing wheat at all. You inflicting physical pain on someone who cannot possibly fight back does nothing to teach them any value other than 'pain = bad, avoid pain' and I think with that I leave the thread.
Have fun rolling the dice with your children and hoping they don't resent you for the rest of their lives!
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On September 21 2014 11:29 Fecalfeast wrote:
AS LONG AS YOU BEAT YOUR CHILD SO THAT THERE ARE NO VISIBLE MARKS, THE PHYSICAL ABUSE CANNOT BE THE CAUSE OF EMOTIONAL OR BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS
You heard it here first folks.
If there are no visible marks, the abuse is MUCH MUCH more likely to be from shouting, swearing, calling them worthless whores, neglect, or drug related incidents, yes.
If there's no marks ever, it shows the parent is able to show enough restrain that generally speaking they are disciplining their kids in effective ways rather than responding to something the kid did in rage. Yes, that's the case 95-99% of the time in my opinion.
Don't take what I said out of context.
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On September 21 2014 11:30 ZenithM wrote:
Let's at least agree on something. You do need sanctions and punishments of some sort with children right? You can't just go full on negotiating/argumenting and stuff, it doesn't work that way.
Whether it's okay for them to be of physical nature is debatable, but then again there are psychological warfare type of punishments that are probably much worse. What do you all feel is the best way to give a quick and efficient "don't do that" lesson to a child when you can't really argue? Or do you believe you can always argue? (Then good luck, you're in for a tough time :D).
Edit: Well, I'll just say it nonetheless, I'm against all types of physical punishment, spanking or whatever else, but I'm far from being a parent, so I don't really have any idea of what I could do if I'm out of arguments :D. Things like confiscating something, like a toy?
Yeah, I can agree with that. You can confiscate a toy, don't give them treats, and in my eyes, spank them as well. As long as you do it in a controlled manner, I think it's perfectly fine. It's more the parents that don't have that control where the kids might backfire.
I'm white for example, and my parents hit me, but we are still very close. My girlfriend is chinese, and her parents disciplined her a lot more, and she still loves her mom and whatnot, has utmost respect for them, she wont speak against them, and there's a form of relationship there, it's different, but it's what happens, and it works.
I dunno, I was raised with the spanking, with educated and reasonable parents, so I don't see the harm of it, and I think physical harm is more effective than psychological... And truthfully taking a kids toy will probably piss them off more than getting spanked.
On September 21 2014 11:32 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 21 2014 11:19 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business. "I just think that if I want to smack my own 4 year old on the mouth for stealing cookies, nobody should say a fucking word about it" I wouldn't hit my kid for that, but I think people should have the right to yes. I would oppose hitting to the head, but I have no issue warranting a spanking for the kid if he's breaking the house rules. It's the long time example. How should the punishment differ for stealing a bushel of wheat versus stealing a carriage, when the intention is the same. The size of what's stolen should not be proportional to the punishment, rather it should be logarithmic. If you taught your child proper values when they were young, they would not be stealing wheat at all. You inflicting physical pain on someone who cannot possibly fight back does nothing to teach them any value other than 'pain = bad, avoid pain' and I think with that I leave the thread. Have fun rolling the dice with your children and hoping they don't resent you for the rest of their lives!
Thanks for your perspective, too bad we couldn't come to a mututal conclusion, but I hope your kids are raised well. Nothing wrong with differing opinions.
I'd argue that parents feeling they have too little control over their children is a major factor of low birthrates in developed countries. Of course ones like both parents having to work in today's society, not wanting to set back career and whatnot are more significant, but I do think it plays a role.
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On September 21 2014 11:32 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 11:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:On September 21 2014 11:19 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 21 2014 11:11 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I just feel like I have no control over my kid when I read all these rules, and I don't know, but I don't like that. To me, my child isn't a creation of the state, I take a much more individualistic approach to this matter, and treat my kid as an extension of me, someone I can pass down my wisdom to, make them not make the same mistakes as me, and I see them as my creating that I protect until it's able to fend for it's own in this world, but until then, they are very much so bound to me. And if I did my job right, they will be successful in the ways I want them to be while still maintaining a great relationship with them.
I'm not in the make clones for the government business. "I just think that if I want to smack my own 4 year old on the mouth for stealing cookies, nobody should say a fucking word about it" I wouldn't hit my kid for that, but I think people should have the right to yes. I would oppose hitting to the head, but I have no issue warranting a spanking for the kid if he's breaking the house rules. It's the long time example. How should the punishment differ for stealing a bushel of wheat versus stealing a carriage, when the intention is the same. The size of what's stolen should not be proportional to the punishment, rather it should be logarithmic. If you taught your child proper values when they were young, they would not be stealing wheat at all. You inflicting physical pain on someone who cannot possibly fight back does nothing to teach them any value other than 'pain = bad, avoid pain' and I think with that I leave the thread. Have fun rolling the dice with your children and hoping they don't resent you for the rest of their lives!
What kind of fucking logic is that. So you think by teaching them not to do something they won't do it? Well guess what, you're wrong. 5 year olds often needs to be reminded that what they're doing it right/wrong and spanking is one of the efficient method to do it. You think negotiating with a child will work?
lol
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Corporal punishment here in Germany in schools and as well at home has been outlawed for roughly 15 years(at home) and I honestly don't know anyone younger than 50 who has experienced corporal punishment regularly. Washing your kids mouth with soap? That sounds like some full metal jacket shit. It may come as a surprise to you all but you can actually raise your children without physically abusing them. We don't even treat our dogs like what some of you are describing here. Holy shit
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On September 21 2014 11:41 Nyxisto wrote:
Corporal punishment here in Germany in schools and as well at home has been outlawed for roughly 15 years(at home) and I honestly don't know anyone younger than 50 who has experienced corporal punishment regularly. Washing your kids mouth with soap? That sounds like some full metal jacket shit. It may come as a surprise to you all but you can actually raise your children without physically abusing them. We don't even treat our dogs like what some of you are describing here. Holy shit
Just because you do it differently, doesn't mean it's wrong. I could say lots of things are fucked up in Germany too, just like the Autobahn... And say the higher speed limit causes more deaths.
Luckily I'm not that ignorant, and know the Autobahn is safe, and in fact even more safe that urban roads when it comes to # of deaths/km travelled. The same way though, just because it's different from what you do in Germany, doesn't mean it's bad, or ineffective.
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You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are comparing beating children to motorways.
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If spanking worked, you'd only have to do it once.
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You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are shitposting and contribute nothing to the discussion.
Do you see what I did there^
On September 21 2014 11:53 HackBenjamin wrote:
If spanking worked, you'd only have to do it once.
I don't think this is true. Like I said above, younger children needs to be constantly reminded what is good/bad. You can tell your son not to run around the house but how long will that last? Maybe a month or less. They don't have the capable knowledge to make the right decision at that age.
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On September 21 2014 11:53 jidolboy wrote:
You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are shitposting and contribute nothing to the discussion.
Do you see what I did there^
+1
On September 21 2014 11:53 HackBenjamin wrote:
If spanking worked, you'd only have to do it once.
Just like how you never need to tell a kid anything more than once, right?
On September 21 2014 11:51 dismiss wrote:
You know you are partaking in a quality discussion when people are comparing beating children to motorways.
It's a valid comparison, your comment is usually used to derail a point based on the merit that it's unconventional rather than addressing the body of its message.
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Beating your children has no positive results, the study has been posted a few pages ago. Obviously everyone with a brain could figure this out themselves, because why on earth would beating your child be beneficial. Additionally, here is a recent article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-physical-punishment-idUSBREA0G16C20140117
I'm not condemning it because it's different, i'm condemning corporal punishment because it involves adults beating children. Jesus Christ America is a nice country and all , but sometimes I don't understand you.
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On September 21 2014 11:30 ZenithM wrote:
Let's at least agree on something. You do need sanctions and punishments of some sort with children right? You can't just go full on negotiating/argumenting and stuff, it doesn't work that way.
That's one of the biggest mistakes my wife makes imo. I never argue or negotiate with kids. They look for guidance and answers, they want and need to learn. I always follow through with punishments, where my wife will often give in- this is a grave mistake in how I see it. Luckily she goes off to work and I stay at home as Mr Mom and have all the time in the world to raise the kids. :D
I never need to raise my hand, my "evil stare" is enough to give them the deer in headlights look lol. I always explain thoroughly why whatever they did wrong was bad, and make sure they realize there are consequences. I took this approach right from the start- even though they certainly couldn't fully understand when very young, I feel like it was a great habit to live by and worked out very well as they get older. Depending, it could be a time out in the corner to doing yard work for a neighbor. The second one is one of my favorites as they hear another point of view and stories from other people which reinforce what I tell them. I'm really lucky though as my kids are extremely well behaved honestly, and I rarely ever need to punish them for much of anything. To me though, I would attribute a big part of that to not spanking them which turns into a vicious cycle and causes even more problems and behavioral issues (at least it did for me growing up).
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On September 21 2014 12:01 Nyxisto wrote:Beating your children has no positive results, the study has been posted a few pages ago. Obviously everyone with a brain could figure this out themselves, because why on earth would beating your child be beneficial. Additionally, here is a recent article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-physical-punishment-idUSBREA0G16C20140117I'm not condemning it because it's different, i'm condemning corporal punishment because it involves adults beating children. Jesus Christ America is a nice country and all , but sometimes I don't understand you.
"From this study, it's difficult to generalize the results to milder forms of punishment, like spanking," said Christopher Ferguson of Stetson University in Florida.
"There's a difference between a parent who spanks a child in the context of a loving family and explains what the spanking is for compared with the parent who starts swatting because of some other non-related situation," said Ferguson, who was not involved in the research.
"The context is probably important but we really haven't dealt with it yet," he added.
Did you even read the article? The article is from a Tanzania study, which has a GDP per capita of $700USD a year. Do you know how absurd you using that as research for developed countries is? Holy.
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The point of the article is that :
"At a minimum, they note, even if that is the case, their results show that corporal punishment does not improve children's behavior."
Nothing positive comes from beating your children. There are a million other studies that show this, too, which the article also mentions. There is nothing positive to it.
edit: this meta study that covers 62 years of data mentioned before confirms this. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
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On September 21 2014 12:01 Nyxisto wrote:Beating your children has no positive results, the study has been posted a few pages ago. Obviously everyone with a brain could figure this out themselves, because why on earth would beating your child be beneficial. Additionally, here is a recent article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-physical-punishment-idUSBREA0G16C20140117I'm not condemning it because it's different, i'm condemning corporal punishment because it involves adults beating children. Jesus Christ America is a nice country and all , but sometimes I don't understand you.
From the article you quoted:
"From this study, it's difficult to generalize the results to milder forms of punishment, like spanking," said Christopher Ferguson of Stetson University in Florida.
"There's a difference between a parent who spanks a child in the context of a loving family and explains what the spanking is for compared with the parent who starts swatting because of some other non-related situation," said Ferguson, who was not involved in the research.
As a poster (who did more research than 1 article worth) noted several pages ago, almost all of these studies are poorly done OR they target behaviors that most of the people participating in this discussion would categorize as willful abuse, rather than effective corporal punishment. If your study involves anything beyond 1-5 restrained applications of a hand/similar, you're stepping beyond what the majority of people mean when they use the term "spanking."
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Do ppl spank in Asia? I thought it's mostly slaps or whatnot
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"But the new research can only point to a relationship between behavioral problems and physical force for punishment - not a causal link, said Larzelere, who was not part of the study.
He pointed out that the researchers did not measure the children's behavior before corporal punishment occurred.
Hecker and his team acknowledge in their report that their study does not establish cause and effect. It could be argued that children with behavioral problems may be more likely to experience physical punishment."
I simply recommend not taking studies as facts. And sure, it may be not as good, as honest hard working parenting. But let me ask you something... Do bars improve productivity for people?
There are many things we are surrounded by everyday that aren't great for our life, but manageable. We are not raising monsters by parents spanking their kids in moderation in proper settings when it's justified. Therefore, like I said:
To government: Stay the fuck away from my family matters when I'm within reasonable limits.
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EPT
