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On August 08 2014 23:55 Noam wrote:
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders.
You can think the worst of them and assume they are going to re-arm. Then you could use that as an excuse to not give them anything. That could happen.
Or you take them in good faith that they want peace and agree to some of their demands(meet in the middle, like most agreements) and just keep at watchful eye to see if they do attempt to rearm.
You can always use fear as an excuse to do nothing.
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On August 08 2014 23:55 Noam wrote:
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders.
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
You're treating Hamas like they are stupid. They aren't. You're treating the Palestinians like they're stupid. They aren't. After a few years of peace and construction bought (and yes, I say bought) with thousands of lives, I doubt many Palestinians would support Hamas for unilaterally breaking the truce and ruining everything.
Hamas has made some reasonable demands with peace. Israel can ask for wants from Hamas at the negotiating table, or it can use fear as an excuse to maintain the status quo.
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On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 23:55 Noam wrote:
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders. Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds? You're treating Hamas like they are stupid. They aren't. You're treating the Palestinians like they're stupid. They aren't. After a few years of peace and construction bought (and yes, I say bought) with thousands of lives, I doubt many Palestinians would support Hamas for unilaterally breaking the truce and ruining everything. Hamas has made some reasonable demands with peace. Israel can ask for wants from Hamas at the negotiating table, or it can use fear as an excuse to maintain the status quo.
The real question is if Hamas will agree to disarm for those demands. Because that is the only way Israel will even think about agreeing. If they want all of that just to stop firing the rockets, Israel will just opt to keep bombing the rocket sites.
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On August 09 2014 00:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 08 2014 23:55 Noam wrote:
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders. Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds? You're treating Hamas like they are stupid. They aren't. You're treating the Palestinians like they're stupid. They aren't. After a few years of peace and construction bought (and yes, I say bought) with thousands of lives, I doubt many Palestinians would support Hamas for unilaterally breaking the truce and ruining everything. Hamas has made some reasonable demands with peace. Israel can ask for wants from Hamas at the negotiating table, or it can use fear as an excuse to maintain the status quo. The real question is if Hamas will agree to disarm for those demands. Because that is the only way Israel will even think about agreeing. If they want all of that just to stop firing the rockets, Israel will just opt to keep bombing the rocket sites.
But Hamas has actually put in a poison pill for themselves in the demand. Either Hamas works damn hard to avoid provocations and then condemns and punishes any rogue incidents, or they lose public support for breaking the peace deal.
It doesn't matter if Hamas has rockets if they have tied their own hands. Besides, it's not like the iron Dome or the IDF is going anywhere.
Either way, you don't build up that much political capital to squander it so you can maintain the status quo.
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On August 08 2014 23:30 Noam wrote:Indeed. Can we just try our best to get basic facts straight? I am not blaming you of twisting anything, but when you specifically write it in the order of "Israeli airstrikes / Hamas rocket attacks resume", even with the slash, some might read it is as "cause -> effect" There have been talks in the past 72 hours, where Hamas said they will resume fire if their demands were not met. Well guess what, they resumed firing this morning. Then they fired a bit more at noon. Then more in the afternoon. And now Israel is responding. You can call Israel a land-grabbing illegal state. You can argue that Israel's army doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians from their own democratically elected government who tends to use them as human shields and accidentally fires rocket at them, but you can't argue this:Hamas wants an armed conflict. These are not children throwing rocks. These are long range rockets from Iran, aimed at civilian centers. Hamas is an armed force engaging another armed force in war. And war is a horrible, bloody, sickening thing humans do when they disagree. Even when the most ethical army in the world is fighting on one side. So you should be fighting for peace. And peace will NEVER happen when Hamas is sitting on the other side of the table. Edit: replaced the word 'continue fire' with 'resume fire', as it was stopped for 72 hours on both sides.
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad.
On August 08 2014 23:55 Noam wrote:
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders.
Look at the terms for the 10year truce. Basically everything is under UN supervision plus international forces on the border, which then would make it an international problem. I fail to see Palestine being an Industrial superpower in the near future that can fight a war with Israel.
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On August 08 2014 23:55 Noam wrote:
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders.
Noam what is your suggestion then?
Let me remind you that Likud party (the ruling party) also claims Gaza as Jewish land in their own charter. Please stop referring to Hamas's charter as it's pretty meaningless and of little consequence to actual debate/negotiation.
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On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 23:55 Noam wrote:
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders. Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds? You're treating Hamas like they are stupid. They aren't. You're treating the Palestinians like they're stupid. They aren't. After a few years of peace and construction bought (and yes, I say bought) with thousands of lives, I doubt many Palestinians would support Hamas for unilaterally breaking the truce and ruining everything. Hamas has made some reasonable demands with peace. Israel can ask for wants from Hamas at the negotiating table, or it can use fear as an excuse to maintain the status quo.
I think at this stage we can say Hamas have proven that they don't care whether or not they will defeat the IDF (on whether or not to continue hostilities) - I mean, they are getting stomped on by IDF and they still fire on Israel. They believe what they're doing is right and if they die trying to kill Israel they are happy enough. They may well rearm over 10 years, even if they can't possibly defeat the IDF they would get plenty of Israelis with what they could build up.
The fact that it is a "10 year truce" and not an indication to the end of hostilities makes me highly suspicious. Hamas don't ever want Israel to exist, and Israel do not want to give them any chance to rearm so they blockade them and prevent them from having any imported resources or freedom to travel. Is that against Palestinian human rights? Probably. Do Israel care about the Palestinian people in Gaza, whose leading group consistently threatens Israel? Probably not.
As many have said in this thread, International support would probably be the only thing that would hold peace, but it doesn't look like there are any volunteers.
Sorry situation for all the civilians 
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Israel2209 Posts
On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it.
With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous.
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On August 09 2014 00:22 Mackin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 08 2014 23:55 Noam wrote:
So you don't think Hamas would use these 10 years to arm itself, become an armed force capable of doing true damage to Israel, and will actually try to fulfil its own written destiny and goal of destroying Israel?
I mean, it's not like that's exactly what they've done since they've come to power. All those tunnels had such great use bringing in rockets. The cement from Israel was very useful in creating them
Are you confident in this not happening? Do you have a strong relationship with current Hamas leaders and believe in their long term peace plans? Do you think they can even control their 1.8 million citizens?
Perhaps you don't really have a reason to fear this close neighbor that vows again and again to kill you, because they are not really close, and it won't actually affect you in any way... one wonders. One truly wonders. Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds? You're treating Hamas like they are stupid. They aren't. You're treating the Palestinians like they're stupid. They aren't. After a few years of peace and construction bought (and yes, I say bought) with thousands of lives, I doubt many Palestinians would support Hamas for unilaterally breaking the truce and ruining everything. Hamas has made some reasonable demands with peace. Israel can ask for wants from Hamas at the negotiating table, or it can use fear as an excuse to maintain the status quo. I think at this stage we can say Hamas have proven that they don't care whether or not they will defeat the IDF (on whether or not to continue hostilities) - I mean, they are getting stomped on by IDF and they still fire on Israel. They believe what they're doing is right and if they die trying to kill Israel they are happy enough. They may well rearm over 10 years, even if they can't possibly defeat the IDF they would get plenty of Israelis with what they could build up. The fact that it is a "10 year truce" and not an indication to the end of hostilities makes me highly suspicious. Hamas don't ever want Israel to exist, and Israel do not want to give them any chance to rearm so they blockade them and prevent them from having any imported resources or freedom to travel. Is that against Palestinian human rights? Probably. Do Israel care about the Palestinian people in Gaza, whose leading group consistently threatens Israel? Probably not. As many have said in this thread, International support would probably be the only thing that would hold peace, but it doesn't look like there are any volunteers. Sorry situation for all the civilians
Uhh. no.
I wrote some more, but it's not worth fleshing out further if that is your attitude towards the Gazans.
Right now Hamas hits back futilely because they have nothing to lose. If the truce goes forward, Hamas isn't going to run their ship into the rocks just to give Israel the finger because it will cost them the international support and aid.
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On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous.
So it's okay to say how hypothetically Hamas can build an arsenal during the truce but not okay to say how hypothetically Hamas could rebuild Gaza during a truce?
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On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous.
There are ways to prevent that and if such smuggling takes place, Israel will have a good reason to put up the blockage again. Assuming things will not change has never been a justification to not try for peace. You can be watchful in peace times, rather than assume everything is "just fine".
On August 09 2014 00:29 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. So it's okay to say how hypothetically Hamas can build an arsenal during the truce but not okay to say how hypothetically Hamas could rebuild Gaza during a truce?
Exactly. If it goes the other way, Israel will have their "I told you so", moment.
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On August 09 2014 00:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. There are ways to prevent that and if such smuggling takes place, Israel will have a good reason to put up the blockage again. Assuming things will not change has never been a justification to not try for peace. You can be watchful in peace times, rather than assume everything is "just fine". Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:29 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. So it's okay to say how hypothetically Hamas can build an arsenal during the truce but not okay to say how hypothetically Hamas could rebuild Gaza during a truce? Exactly. If it goes the other way, Israel will have their "I told you so", moment.
My point is, you can't cherrypick the results of a truce.
If Hamas negotiates a truce with such favorable terms for Gaza, they are tying their continued support by Gazans to the success of the treaty. They go from having nothing to lose by firing rockets to having everything to lose by firing rockets.
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On August 09 2014 00:36 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:31 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. There are ways to prevent that and if such smuggling takes place, Israel will have a good reason to put up the blockage again. Assuming things will not change has never been a justification to not try for peace. You can be watchful in peace times, rather than assume everything is "just fine". On August 09 2014 00:29 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. So it's okay to say how hypothetically Hamas can build an arsenal during the truce but not okay to say how hypothetically Hamas could rebuild Gaza during a truce? Exactly. If it goes the other way, Israel will have their "I told you so", moment. My point is, you can't cherrypick the results of a truce. If Hamas negotiates a truce with such favorable terms for Gaza, they are tying their continued support by Gazans to the success of the treaty. They go from having nothing to lose by firing rockets to having everything to lose by firing rockets.
I want nothing more then have a peaceful neighbors , but to be honest we tried so many times and failed, the reason for the blockades is never about hurting them on spite , its always about stopping them from smuggling rockets to fire at israel , we had an entire generation of ppl who were willing to give up on so much of the demands (Rabin/Barak/Olmeret) but they never accepted it , so the ppl grew less tolerant and its the Palastienies fault of Israel having more a right wing party , as its israel fault of Hamas getting to rule instead of Fatach , its a shitty situation for both sides.
in the end of the day , i would bet everything i own , that israel will be bombed again regardless of a blockade/truce or whatever , why ? because thats how Hamas is being payed by Iran , the Hamas employer wants war , and thats what he will get.
the "I TOLD YOU SO " moment happened so many times i lost count , shitty shitty situation.
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On August 09 2014 00:36 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2014 00:31 Plansix wrote:On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. There are ways to prevent that and if such smuggling takes place, Israel will have a good reason to put up the blockage again. Assuming things will not change has never been a justification to not try for peace. You can be watchful in peace times, rather than assume everything is "just fine". On August 09 2014 00:29 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 09 2014 00:24 Noam wrote:On August 09 2014 00:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
Right, because in ten years (or less) Hamas is actually going to somehow acquire enough military assets to defeat the IDF on it's own ground? Do you know ridiculous that sounds?
In less than 2 years of being blockaded on land, sea and air, Hamas has managed to acquire 6000 rockets, some of them 300mm 5meter long, that weigh 500kg and reach 150km. They will destroy a building if they hit it. With their own naval port, an unlimited checkbook from Qatar, and Iran's foundries... getting enough arms to kill thousands of civilians doesn't sound remotely ridiculous. So it's okay to say how hypothetically Hamas can build an arsenal during the truce but not okay to say how hypothetically Hamas could rebuild Gaza during a truce? Exactly. If it goes the other way, Israel will have their "I told you so", moment. My point is, you can't cherrypick the results of a truce. If Hamas negotiates a truce with such favorable terms for Gaza, they are tying their continued support by Gazans to the success of the treaty. They go from having nothing to lose by firing rockets to having everything to lose by firing rockets.
You seem to forget that there are those in Hamas who do not believe in peace, and that Hamas military wing is separate from its political wing. Likewise in Isreal where the war is popular there is little political incentive for peace. The pressure for peace is strongest from the US but Isreals leaders dont like Obama and vice versa.There are real diplomatic reasons this truce is not happening.
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Hamas does not have a destiny, it's just an organization.
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On August 09 2014 01:04 Grumbels wrote:
Hamas does not have a destiny, it's just an organization.
Its not JUST an organization. Its a specific organization with a specific leadership with its own internal politics. Hamas maynot have a destiny but its a very real organization and we know a lot about it.
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Israel2209 Posts
On August 09 2014 00:14 DrCooper wrote:
No you can't argue that Israel doesn't do enough to protect Gaza's civilians. They don't give one single piece of sh*t about them. They don't necessarily target them as an enemy, but they don't mind if some die. Just as bad.
Welcome to the discussion DrCooper. You seem to be uneducated in the ways IDF handles civilians in Gaza (I am specifically writing Gaza). Let us spend some time together going over hard facts.
How can we tell whether an army is targeting civilians, not targeting civilians, or even trying to avoid harming civilians when they are used as human shields? We compare numbers of civilian casualties vs combatant casualties from around the globe.
I know you don't want to waste our time looking at the "UN assumed" numbers from the 2014 cycle of the Gaza war, because it will take years for Hamas to report the true numbers of their own casualties. (If you're simply unaware of the way Hamas fights the PR war, here's a nice article from the BBC titled "Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures".)
So let's go back to operation Cast Lead from 2008. As you know, Hamas originally stated that only 50 combatants were killed and the rest were civilians. Years later they admitted that "around 700 of the Gaza fatalities were fighters". Source. Guess what, that matches Israel's original figures!
So now let's see what do those numbers actually mean. Here's a nice read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Israel_in_the_Gaza_War
With your permission, I'll snip the relevant parts (relevant to our discussion. I could show you how many more civilians than combatants America's military killed in Iraq, but that would just portray them as any normal army, when we're trying to see whether the IDF minds or doesn't mind about minimizing civilian casualties in Gaza.):
Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualties.
Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and adamant supporter of the IDF, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.
So it appears that the cold hard Hamas-supported numbers show the IDF kills less civilians than combatants when it fights in Gaza. It also appears that this is an unprecedented ratio for "normal" wars (can war and normal really be used together in the same sentence?), so for a war where Hamas uses civilians as shields and actually kills some themselves?
The IDF takes great care as to not harming civilians in Gaza.
I apologize if it seems like I am attacking you personally DrCooper. There's just too many people ignorant of the facts of this very sad very bloody conflict.
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There have been a couple of accounts from reporters that left Gaza that Hamas was blaming IDF for civilian deaths they caused by misfired rockets.(I think it was in this thread) The UN also reported to finding rockets in their schools and specifically their "safe zones" only work if both sides respect them and if one side starts hiding arms near them, the system will not work. We shouldn't be surprised at all that a lot of the information coming from Hamas is suspect, just like the stuff coming from the IDF.
Both sides are very interested in making getting international sympathy and support. Any information or numbers coming from Israel or Hamas, or even third parties, should be taken with a large grain of salt. The reality distortion field is strong around this conflict.
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Israel2209 Posts
When numbers are disputed they should be taken with a grain of salt. That's why I only showed numbers from 2008 which have been confirmed accurate by both sides (albeit years later by the side who's an expert at producing fake death scenes).
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On August 09 2014 01:53 Noam wrote:
When numbers are disputed they should be taken with a grain of salt. That's why I only showed numbers from 2008 which have been confirmed accurate by both sides (albeit years later by the side who's an expert at producing fake death scenes).
Yes, and any numbers from either side of this conflict should be considered disputed. I never really understood this new trend of accepting numbers from warzone as accurate or creditable. Both sides have the reality distortion cannons on full blast.
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EPT
