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On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back rather than trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong.
Tunnels needed to smuggle in food, medical supplies, paper, and all sorts of other things that are not used for war that cannot get into Gaza because of government imposed sanctions? Things that cannot be used to hurt anyone? You cannot realistically expect them to stay locked out from the outside world especially when so many civilians are getting murdered by Israeli military action. Stop pretending that Hamas is only ones that use the tunnels. Stop perpetuating a negative portrayal on the entire Arab population it is incredibly insensitive. Try to look at it from a humanitarian perspective. Tally the dead and respect the empathy neutrals have. It looks like a massacre to us. In a few months alone over a thousand dead... people SEE THAT. That does not only affect the dead but their families, friends, neighbors, witnesses, etc. It creates a culture of desperation, hate, a huge amount of PTSD among the general population. People are suffering on both sides... there is a lot of hate on both sides. Israeli students celebrating when their school is called off by offensive chants disrespecting the dead in Palestine? It has happened. And it will continue to happen until both sides hold themselves accountable for their actions and stop pointing fingers. The hate is on both sides... but the dead is mostly on one.
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On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust
Contender for dumbest post of the thread?
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On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that.
Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past.
If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace.
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On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace.
They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason.
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On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason.
That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed.
What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does.
You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased.
Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too.
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On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace.
Or maybe we should send all Palestinians to UK and give them part of the UK and call it Palestine. UK started this mess and what goes around comes around.
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On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too.
Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased.
Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent just isn't applicable to the current conflict. Past transgressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!!
I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 million Israelis.
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On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis.
Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions.
I didn't say the Palestinians need to forgive us NOW because of the holocaust. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents.
So yeah, you are biased because you are assuming that I am propagandizing in favor of Israel while all I'm doing is making a case for the possibility and necessity of peace and forgiveness in the future.
Also Israel began to normalize relations with Germany as early as 1952, 4 years after the declaration of independence.
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On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I didn't say the Palestinians need to forgive us NOW because of the holocaust. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So yeah, you are biased because you are assuming that I am propagandizing in favor of Israel while all I'm doing is making a case for the possibility and necessity of peace and forgiveness in the future. Also Israel began to normalize relations with Germany as early as 1952, 4 years after the declaration of independence.
It is easier to forgive when you see the guilty party destroyed, shamed and their people in charge put on trial and found guilty.
Since none of this will happen to Israel I doubt you can expect any forgiveness from Palestine.
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On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back rather than trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong.
Disgusting. You expect people that have been kicked in the teeth time and time again to just roll over and submit because if not the teeth kicking will continue ? Also, you, are a racist sir. You might want to read back what you wrote there when the next batch of "rockets" get launched.
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On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents.
So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest.
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On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:
[quote]
Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels,
Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest.
No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground.
You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me.
I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts.
Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue.
Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality.
If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that.
So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig.
Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion.
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On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I didn't say the Palestinians need to forgive us NOW because of the holocaust. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So yeah, you are biased because you are assuming that I am propagandizing in favor of Israel while all I'm doing is making a case for the possibility and necessity of peace and forgiveness in the future. Also Israel began to normalize relations with Germany as early as 1952, 4 years after the declaration of independence.
The root cause for the hatret was gone and the german states were in shambles after the war. The root causes for the hatred between Israel and Palestine is quite different and persistant. I am not sure that counts as precedence since the situations are so fundamentally different. NIreland would hold more comparison, but that is also quite different, given the timeperiod (a curiosity would be that Sinn Fein has been accepted as a political party by the protestants and cooperated with. Given their history as a representative of IRA, you might draw other far less comfortable parallels for Israel on what is needed for peace).
When it comes to trust, the way to build it is through letting the more cooperative parties cooperate and gain better relations. The segregation would be a very strong hinderance in that context. Forgiveness is not a onesided thing in persistent and prolonged conflicts and it is not gonna happen suddently. It will take a lot of time and some regressions before it is reached. Some will never forgive 'till they die, making the time horizon for complete normalisation 60+ years...
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On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:
[quote]
Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly.
That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion.
I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is.
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On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:
[quote]
That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..).
Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is.
I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions.
Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors.
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On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:
[quote]
Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors.
Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread.
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Norway28701 Posts
On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:On August 08 2014 17:17 Scarecrow wrote:
Where the fuck do you expect them to shoot from in Gaza? Its golf courses and lush parklands? If your answer is they should stop fighting then Israel will simply keep encroaching and oppressing the Palestinians until this breaks out again (justifying further retaliation and land grabs). I wish Israel would stop acting like the victim/defender when decades of systematic oppression and encroachment are what provokes and sustains organisations like Hamas.
Also, count casualties/damage, not rockets, like you would with any other war. The focus on the number of missiles rather than casualties is just another form of pro-Israeli rhetoric used to justify their lack of restraint. Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels, Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I didn't say the Palestinians need to forgive us NOW because of the holocaust. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So yeah, you are biased because you are assuming that I am propagandizing in favor of Israel while all I'm doing is making a case for the possibility and necessity of peace and forgiveness in the future. Also Israel began to normalize relations with Germany as early as 1952, 4 years after the declaration of independence.
I certainly agree that it is possible to achieve good relations between people who have been greatly hostile in the past, and it doesn't even have to take long. But like Archangel said, this would not happen if the Nazi leadership had remained in power. It's hard to find any nation throughout history which actually genuinely took blame and responsibility for its actions in the way Germany did post-ww2, nowhere else has had an inglorious past as heavily debated, as many shameful monuments constructed, and the history so curriculumized.
So I mean, I agree that change in attitudes can happen if change in leadership/leadership attitude happens, and you get an increased amount of cultural exchange and intermingling between the populations to like, re-humanize the Palestinians for the Israelis and vice versa. I was at a conference last September where this Israeli lady named Orly Gal was speaking. She was part of some Center for Humanistic Education in Israel where their focus was just to have discussions between Israeli and Arab youth with a clear bridging focus through showcasing the parallels between the persecution of Jews and the current situation of Palestinians. That sounds like a fantastic initiative to me - and she described witnessing a clear change in attitudes within the participating youth. Sadly I also heard from another (German) participant that Orly Gal was somewhat of an outcast in Israel, as her ideas on how to improve relations and her understanding of the conflict had very little foothold in the rest of the population. Hopefully we can see more of it in the future though.
Edit: and just to be clear, it's my impression that you seem to agree with this, just trying to clarify why people aren't accepting your analogy.;p
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On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:
[quote]
Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past.
If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread.
Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling?
The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered.
Your perspective is seriously flawed.
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On August 08 2014 20:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:28 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:00 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 18:56 shabby wrote:On August 08 2014 18:27 tmdtmdtmd wrote:
[quote]
Then stop fucking firing rockets into Israel, stop defending Hamas you inhumane bastard. Stop spending money and resources on building fucking tunnels,
Arabs will forever be backwards if they're stuck with a bitter mentality while the whole world moved on, suck it up you're not gonna get your lands back by damaging your own people, live in peace with Israel eventually you'll have more chances of getting them back then trying to terrorize Isreal all day, leads to nothing. The people defending Hamas are the fking problem, they're too stupid to realize why they're wrong. Namecalling is not necessary. Its understandable that they cannot just "move on", when Israel took large parts of their lands, rendering thousands upon thousands homeless. Would any superpower US, Britain, France, China etc let it go if someone did that to them? Hardly. That being said, terrorism is never the answer, but your post is naive thinking a whole country/people can just let it go and live in peace with Israel. That's funny, we didn't have a problem letting go of the holocaust and living in peace with Germany ( not that there's any comparing these two events..). Difficult to compare. You took Israel after the holocaust, I hardly call that peace. The Palestinians don't have a solution like that. Sure, but there's a point in there. It's possible to forgive anything and we've done it in the recent past. If this wasn't the case then there is no hope for peace. They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I didn't say the Palestinians need to forgive us NOW because of the holocaust. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So yeah, you are biased because you are assuming that I am propagandizing in favor of Israel while all I'm doing is making a case for the possibility and necessity of peace and forgiveness in the future. Also Israel began to normalize relations with Germany as early as 1952, 4 years after the declaration of independence. I certainly agree that it is possible to achieve good relations between people who have been greatly hostile in the past, and it doesn't even have to take long. But like Archangel said, this would not happen if the Nazi leadership had remained in power. It's hard to find any nation in throughout history which actually genuinely took blame and responsibility for its actions in the way Germany did post-ww2, nowhere else has had an inglorious past as heavily debated, as many shameful monuments been constructed, and the history so curriculumized. So I mean, I agree that change in attitudes can happen if change in leadership/leadership attitude happens, and you get an increased amount of cultural exchange and intermingling between the populations to like, re-humanize the Palestinians for the Israelis and vice versa. I was at a conference last September where this Israeli lady named Orly Gal was speaking. She was part of some Center for Humanistic Education in Israel where their focus was just to have discussions between Israeli and Arab youth with a clear bridging focus through showcasing the parallels between the persecution of Jews and the current situation of Palestinians. That sounds like a fantastic initiative to me - and she described witnessing a clear change in attitudes within the participating youth. Sadly I also heard from another (German) participant that Orly Gal was somewhat of an outcast in Israel, as her ideas on how to improve relations and her understanding of the conflict had very little foothold in the rest of the population. Hopefully we can see more of it in the future though. Edit: and just to be clear, it's my impression that you seem to agree with this, just trying to clarify why people aren't accepting your analogy.;p
Yes, and the population in general does currently demonize left-wing views like hers unfortunately.
True, the Germans took full responsibility for their actions (as forced by conquering nations) and they offered to begin paying reparations in 1952 which prompted the normalization of relations with Israel.
Maybe in the future something similar will happen here.
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On August 08 2014 20:46 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 20:43 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:36 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:33 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 20:19 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 20:15 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:57 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:54 Scarecrow wrote:On August 08 2014 19:40 Bulugulu wrote:On August 08 2014 19:38 Scarecrow wrote:
[quote]
They're not even remotely comparable. Saying the Palestinians should forgive Israel because Israel forgave a distant, repentant nation who hurt them 60+ years ago is beyond reason. That's not what I said, your logic is really flawed. What I said is, there is recent precedent to normalization of relations between two countries where one country killed 6 million people of the others nationality. If that doesn't show that you can forgive past transgressions I don't know what does. You're jumping to conclusions about what I'm trying to say because you're biased. Thanks for attacking me personally without addressing what I said first too. Nice try. The Israeli telling me I'm biased. Suggesting that Israel's 'forgiveness' of modern day German is remotely applicable here is ridiculous. The precedent is not analogous to the current conflict. Past trangressions are forgivable given time but civilians are being slaughtered right now. The perpetrators aren't descendants, and the victims are people who've lost their homes/family members/freedoms over recent years. It's like going up to the Jews in concentration camps or resistance movements during the war and saying 'hey why don't you just forgive Germany?? South Africa just forgave England for the Boer war!! I also wasn't aware the Germans killed 6 millions Israelis. Once again, you fail to understand what I said and you're make assumptions. I said that they will need to forgive us in the future for peace to be possible, and that they CAN forgive us as shown by past precedents. So the Israeli says the onus for peace is on Palestine forgiving Israel after another decade or so of living in cramped refugee camps? Your decade-distant, forgiveness hypothetical isn't relevant as the conditions of the palestinian people are currently untenable. It's not realistic or an answer to the situation. You just bring it up seemingly to give Israel the moral high ground and suggest Palestine's the unreasonable party responsible for the unrest. No, once again you're making assumptions about what I'm saying. I have no intention of giving Israel the moral high-ground. You've created some persona of an Israeli that you would like to argue on the forums and you've glued that personna onto me. I don't believe Israel has the moral high-ground and I never said that in any of my posts. Yes, my "forgiveness hyopthetical" is relevant because at one point or another both sides will have to forgive each others in order for real peace to ensue. Also I didn't mean to give an "answer" to the situation. And yes, it is realistic since it happened in reality. If you want to find some right-winged Israelis to flame there are better forums than this for that. So yeah, sorry for preaching forgiveness and all that.. I'm a stinking Israeli pig. Also.. See the response below me for an example of intelligent discussion. I'd give you intelligent discussion if you actually addressed my arguments rather than rephrasing or shifting your position every post and saying I'm assuming shit (because you repeatedly fail to express your position in a reasonable way). You say the key to peace is your enemy forgiving you and call it preaching forgiveness. If that doesn't seem ridiculous to you you're a lost cause. Keep battling away and know the rest of the world sees Israel for the disgrace it is. I haven't shifted my position once. You simply assumed I had a certain position and found it uncomfortable when I didn't match your assumptions. Hope you had fun letting out your anger and hatred, hope that works out well for you in your future endeavors. Israel trains its trolls well. Feels like arguing with the Russians in the Ukraine thread. Most people wouldn't have responded seriously to your personal attacks, you call that trolling? The irony is that I am probably the most left-oriented Israeli you will encounter on this forum, which if you took the time to read my posts or if you asked me in a civil manner - you would have discovered. Your perspective is seriously flawed.
It's hard to take you seriously after you said Israel "didn't have a problem getting over the Holocaust." Unless you're very far left you're likely also part of the 95% that believe the war is justified. You call yourself a forgiveness preacher but say peace is up to your enemy forgiving you and I'm the one with a flawed perspective?
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